Ireland to assist in migrant crisis in the Med.

MathDebater

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

We emigrated over a much larger period than the famine. And to counries that weren't running surpluses either.

What's your point?

Apart from the UK, we largely emigrated to vastly uninhabited new world continent sized countries with the resources to boot. You're comparing historical migration to the new world with modern day immigration into a tiny island off of Atlantic that is suffering high unemployment, a social housing crisis and where essential services are being cut to ribbons.

It's an absurd comparison to try and make.

jackofalltrades

murpho999 wrote: »

Funny how many here who claim to be Christian and Ireland is a Catholic country and then just complain about money when a small group of desperate people are being offered help.

Off topic but Ireland's a secular country.

People from Syria are not economic migrants they are people who have lost everything due to war and are in an awful state..

Yes and they can claim asylum in the first state where it is safe to do so, after that then they are an economic migrant.
The money that we spend on dealing with economic asylum seekers here, would be better spent providing care in the neighbours of these war torn countries.

murpho999

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Off topic but Ireland's a secular country.

Officially yes, but the population is predominantly Catholic and I am talking about these Christian people complaining about the secular government wanting to help.

Yes and they can claim asylum in the first state where it is safe to do so, after that then they are an economic migrant.
The money that we spend on dealing with economic asylum seekers here, would be better spent providing care in the neighbours of these war torn countries.

Yea sure, people would be delighted to see our money going to Turkey.

Just because they fled to Turkey and get the opportunity to come here does not make them economic migrants.

bjork

bjork wrote: »

When, apart form the famine, did we jump on boats by the 1,000's and forcefully land on other nations shores, claiming asylum?




I don't even think we landed illegally during the famine.



Do you think all of Africa will fit in to Ireland? Also Have a look where these "migrants" are coming from...not all syria or lybia...the lad they interviewed on the news was from pakistan after the boat sank.


Where are you intending to draw the line?

Why are you encouraging human traffickers?

Are you kidding me?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_emigration

The famine was a blip in terms of migration out of ireland.

MathDebater

MathDebater wrote: »

Apart from the UK, we largely emigrated to vastly uninhabited new world continent sized countries with the resources to boot. You're comparing historical migration to the new world with modern day immigration into a tiny island off of Atlantic that is suffering high unemployment, a social housing crisis and where essential services are being cut to ribbons.

It's an absurd comparison to try and make.

So ireland is as developed as it will ever be? Time to close up shop?

The argument of "ah sure it was grand when we did it" is pretty lame.

bjork

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Are you kidding me?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_emigration

The famine was a blip in terms of migration out of ireland.

Your comparison is bull as has been pointed out


Are you implying this is the first time anyone ever has "migrated" from Africa?


Also here's the same search with Irish replaced by Africa


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_diaspora

Are you kidding me?

MathDebater

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

So ireland is as developed as it will ever be? Time to close up shop?

The argument of "ah sure it was grand when we did it" is pretty lame.

We have free movement of labour with the 27 other EU member states. We have reciprocal youth mobility and working holiday agreements in place with nine non EU countries. Under the Employment Permits Acts 2003–2014 there are *nine types of visas non EU citizens can obtain to live and work in Ireland. If people meet the requirements, they can live and work in Ireland. According to the census 2011, our foreign population stood at 17%. One of the highest in the EU. We definitely are not a closed shop. Not wanting a free for all and being skeptical of unskilled non EU migration does not mean people want to completely shut off immigration.

* http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/

MathDebater

MathDebater wrote: »

According to the census 2011, our foreign population stood at 17%. One of the highest in the EU.

Two words - Northern Ireland.

bjork

bjork wrote: »

Your comparison is bull as has been pointed out

Really? Where?

Also, Ireland is a country, Africa is a continent. European migration would be a more appropriate comparison.

MathDebater

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Two words - Northern Ireland.

There are 112k from the UK resident here. That would include Wales, Scotland and England as well as those from Northern Ireland.

Grayson

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Their loans will be paid back with interest.
They were also protected from the "contagion effect" that they were very concerned about.

So I'm not going to be fawning with thanks while I drive down EU funded motorways.
Which we will eventually pay for anyway through being a net contributor to the EU.

But you said they did nothing. The simple face is that they didn't need to do anything.

Bet you're the kind of guy who gets a really nice birthday present and hates the person because you think they want something from you.

Grayson

Gatling wrote: »

Thousands fled to other parts alot died trying now none got access to any social welfare or social housing and free medical and or free legal aid .

Using historic look what we did 30,60, 150 years
Is a pretty cheap argument.
Most people aren't against migrants in the country we have a migrant population of 560,000 already settled and were hardly tuning everyone away .
But opening flood gates to economic migrants is just going to cause major problems both socially and financially

I don't think anyone is talking about opening the floodgates. I certainly am not. A figure mentioned earlier in the thread was 30k. That's hardly floodgates. hell, you'd hardly notice that many dispersed across the country.

My issue is with the people who say we shouldn't take any at all. I haven't mentioned a particular figure but i believe that we should take a frank look at our finances and take as many as we can.

And the people who say they'll grow up and bomb us (Unlikely but even if it did, they can't be worse than our domestic terrorists)
The people who call them goatherders. That's just sick.
The people who claim that we can't afford any. Yes we can. Despite our economic worries we are actually really well off.
The people who say, Put them in your house then. Well, they're just idiots. (Besides the fact that I'm currently in Saigon and staying in a crappy hotel room, this hotel room is actually bigger my apartment. I do however believe that the rest of my immediate family are the kind of people who would actually do it because they own houses with spare rooms.


Every single xmas eve my mother lights a candle in every window of the house. This is a big tradition amoungst christian families in Ireland. It's from when Mary and Joseph were turned away from every house. The light represents the fact that there is someone home and that anyone who needs a roofover their head is welcome. When I think of Irish christian traditions, thats what I like to think of. We used to be a country that did this kind of stuff. We used to donate more per capita than most other countries despite the fact that we were a pretty poor country.
At somepoint we became selfish dicks that look at people drowning in the med and think, Not our problem". They're a different religion so i don't care. They have funny accents so I don't care.

No-one is saying we should take 5 million migrants. We should take as many as we can. Even if it's a small number per year so that it's not too large a burden at once. However to say that we shouldn't take any or that we should select them based on some arbitrary criterion like religion is just nasty.

Grayson

MathDebater wrote: »

We have free movement of labour with the 27 other EU member states. We have reciprocal youth mobility and working holiday agreements in place with nine non EU countries. Under the Employment Permits Acts 2003–2014 there are *nine types of visas non EU citizens can obtain to live and work in Ireland. If people meet the requirements, they can live and work in Ireland. According to the census 2011, our foreign population stood at 17%. One of the highest in the EU. We definitely are not a closed shop. Not wanting a free for all and being skeptical of unskilled non EU migration does not mean people want to completely shut off immigration.

* http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/

But we are closed for people from outside the EU. If an US graduate (so someone with skills) decided they wanted to emigrate to Ireland there's no way. We don't even have a quota system like the US as far as I know.

I will say one thing I'm proud of is how accepting we were during the boom for eastern european migrants. We had a large influx and except for that incident in waterford where they marched against Roma, it was pretty uneventul.

jackofalltrades

Grayson wrote: »

But you said they did nothing.

Where?

The simple face is that they didn't need to do anything.

But they wanted to, so they could get the result that they wanted.

keeponhurling

MathDebater wrote: »

Where will they live? It's not like there is an abundance of social housing in the country. Where will they work? We have circa 400k unemployed residents. A lot of whom, would be significantly more skilled than these migrants. Will they require language classes? Education? Training? Healthcare? A welfare stipend? Who shall pay for all this?

The taxpayer of course, while there are still some left.

Rhetorical question I suppose

xhoundx

Grayson wrote: »

I haven't mentioned a particular figure but i believe that we should take a frank look at our finances and take as many as we can.

We're broke, can't afford to look after our own old folk, sick folk and unemployed. You wanted add to this by taking in another 30k people which in reality will be just the tip of the iceberg.

Grayson wrote: »

The people who say, Put them in your house then. Well, they're just idiots. (Besides the fact that I'm currently in Saigon and staying in a crappy hotel room, this hotel room is actually bigger my apartment. I do however believe that the rest of my immediate family are the kind of people who would actually do it because they own houses with spare rooms.

How have your family got spare rooms when there are already thousands of people already here in need of shelter?

Grayson wrote: »

Every single xmas eve my mother lights a candle in every window of the house. This is a big tradition amoungst christian families in Ireland. It's from when Mary and Joseph were turned away from every house. The light represents the fact that there is someone home and that anyone who needs a roofover their head is welcome.
/quote]

How many homeless is your mother currently homing?

MathDebater

Grayson wrote: »

But we are closed for people from outside the EU. If an US graduate (so someone with skills) decided they wanted to emigrate to Ireland there's no way. We don't even have a quota system like the US as far as I know.

You didn't even bother to read my earlier response to you. Other than sponsorship or a spousal visa, I gave you two ways that your American friend can legally move to and work in Ireland.

It's a lot easier to move to Ireland as an American citizen, than it is to move to the US as an Irish citizen. To suggest otherwise would lead me to believe that you have no experience of the American system.

We are not closed to skilled non EU citizens. Look up the Critical Skills Employment Permit. If they have skills that our labour market lacks, they can avail of the permit and move here. If they don't - that's not our concern. We already have open borders with 27 other EU member states. We have to practice some controls.

MorpheusKnight

keeponhurling wrote: »

The taxpayer of course, while there are still some left.

Rhetorical question I suppose

There are some interesting graphs on independent uk

The Irish have 107 legal asylum seekers per million residents. 495 legal asylum seekers per year.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/two-graphs-that-show-how-many-asylum-seekers-britain-really-accepts-10246302.html

With the EU organising a free-for-all in the Med, they will come and keep coming.

And the taxpayer will pay. That's you and me.

I already have three children.

I do not need another 495 dependants per annum. That number will increase, not decrease. (although not children for me - being self-employed, and having to pay for them myself means that I can't afford any more children)

If we are going to take anybody, it should be the Copts, Christians, and Ba'hai. People who actually need asylum. People being cleansed from the ME.

If we accept economic migrants just because they had a rough boat journey, then the poor will come from all four corners of the earth.

folamh

It's a good thing the marriage referendum is taking place before these people gain citizenship and voting rights.

MorpheusKnight

folamh wrote: »

It's a good thing the marriage referendum is taking place before these people gain citizenship and voting rights.

The new asylum by-word will be 'I am gay'. (And if I go home, they will kill me).

bjork

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Really? Where?

Also, Ireland is a country, Africa is a continent. European migration would be a more appropriate comparison.

In previous posts on the Thread, but you admit it here yourself. They are not the same thing.

Mesrine65

end of the road wrote: »

because they are issues that can only be changed by a change to the constitution. changes to the constitution requires a referendum

No way...really? :eek: :rolleyes:

JustTheOne

Grayson wrote: »

But we are closed for people from outside the EU. If an US graduate (so someone with skills) decided they wanted to emigrate to Ireland there's no way. We don't even have a quota system like the US as far as I know.

I will say one thing I'm proud of is how accepting we were during the boom for eastern european migrants. We had a large influx and except for that incident in waterford where they marched against Roma, it was pretty uneventul.

Well how do we have such a high Nigerian community?

wakka12

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

So it's alright for us to be the immigrants? The irony is lost on you I'm sure!

If we can afford to pay some people close to 100k p.a. in benefits, we can afford to assist these people in attaining not just a better life, but a chance to live full stop.

Most irish immigrants are educated and literate and will stimulate other economies. Same can't be said for the poor resourceless third world refugees who are supposedly coming to 'enrich' our little island

wakka12

murpho999 wrote: »

Funny how many here who claim to be Christian and Ireland is a Catholic country and then just complain about money when a small group of desperate people are being offered help.

People from Syria are not economic migrants they are people who have lost everything due to war and are in an awful state.

I was in Istanbul recently and there are plenty of Syrian families sleeping on the streets with young children and it was truly one of the saddest sights I've ever seen.

I would like it if Ireland can help out in way it can as these people are just unlucky as to where they were born whilst we are the opposite.

Yes its sad, but where do we stop? How many do we take? if we rescue 50 families why don't we just rescue 1000 instead? Yes syrians are suffering but there needs be a limit, ireland is a small country, not everyone syrian can come here.

Nodin

JustTheOne wrote: »

Well how do we have such a high Nigerian community?

Just on weekends and Friday nights same as the rest of us.

end of the road

Peter Anthony wrote: »

The 50s?

You dont have to go back that far to find when we were last bankrupt. And you'll find the EU were actively involved.

Dont rewrite history because of your communist agenda. We all know your views.

what "communist agenda." you haven't a clue of my views. your just spouting daily fail style rabelry

end of the road

MathDebater wrote: »

I really don't think that they will. In their election manifesto, the Tories stated that it's their ambition to get net migration down to the tens of thousands. They closed down a hape of dodgy English language schools. They did away with the student graduate visa. They introduced stringent financial requirements for the spousal visa. They have deported failed asylum seekers and told them to appeal the decision in their home country(this is policy now). They ain't messing about about immigration. I doubt very much that they are going to agree to take in asylum seekers who arrived in other EU countries. Our lads will of course.

no, they are doing all this to try stave off the votes going to UKIP. once labour gets back in eventually all the tories political stunts and rabelry will be undone

end of the road

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

well, thats due to the police failing to do their jobs.

No it's due to the failure of immigrants to integrate and sticking their fingers up at the country that let's them in. And you want more of it

In fact, you seem to celebrate it[/QUOTE]
do you know what the job of the police is? its stopping crime. as they are failing to stop a crime, then they are failing in their duty and are responsible for that crime being able to continue to happen.

end of the road

xhoundx wrote: »

Any countries we emigrated to in the past and present were all suffering from labour or skills shortages. We went to take up work.

Until ireland starts to suffer from a labour shortage situation we have no room for any immigrants from anywhere.

ireland is suffering from a labour shortage in some jobs. the irish won't do those jobs

nokia69

end of the road wrote: »

ireland is suffering from a labour shortage in some jobs. the irish won't do those jobs

we may have a labour shortage in some high tech areas

I seriously doubt many on these boats can help with that

xhoundx

end of the road wrote: »

ireland is suffering from a labour shortage in some jobs. the irish won't do those jobs

Making these jobs more attractive to the Irish is the solution, whether through reducing welfare or increasing pay and conditions.

Your way means leave the welfare and conditions as they are but just bring in a cheaper workforce. Typically short sighted form from you

end of the road

xhoundx wrote: »

We're broke, can't afford to look after our own old folk, sick folk and unemployed.

the unemployed are well looked after. the health care system is mismanaged and underfunded, having no immigration won't change that. immigrants are coming. there is nothing you can do about it so get used to it

xhoundx wrote: »

You wanted add to this by taking in another 30k people which in reality will be just the tip of the iceberg.

the last lot were the "tip of the iceberg" and before that and before that again. a load of old rabel.

xhoundx wrote: »

How many homeless is your mother currently homing?

how many are you homing?

end of the road

xhoundx wrote: »

Making these jobs more attractive to the Irish is the solution, whether through reducing welfare or increasing pay and conditions.

Your way means leave the welfare and conditions as they are but just bring in a cheaper workforce. Typically short sighted form from you

reducing wellfare won't make a difference. unless people form a union and force up conditions then one will take what they get. if you don't want "cheeper labour" either fight for better conditions or compete. if you can't be bothered to do any of those, then tough **** your loss

xhoundx

end of the road wrote: »

the unemployed are well looked after. the health care system is mismanaged and underfunded, having no immigration won't change that. immigrants are coming. there is nothing you can do about it so get used to it

Where is the money coming from to pay our unemployed?

You seem almost too excited at the prospect of these immigrants coming, have you skin in the game?

"end wrote:

the last lot were the "tip of the iceberg" and before that and before that again. a load of old rabel.

Learned a new word today?

end of the road wrote: »

how many are you homing?

Absolutely none but what's that got to do with anything? I not the one pontificating over how we should all welcome anyone who wants to come over here, some even suggested their families would give up their spare rooms but it sure as hell wasn't me

wakka12

end of the road wrote: »

the unemployed are well looked after. the health care system is mismanaged and underfunded, having no immigration won't change that. immigrants are coming. there is nothing you can do about it so get used to it



the last lot were the "tip of the iceberg" and before that and before that again. a load of old rabel.



how many are you homing?

Why do you want these people in the country? what possible benefits do you see from these new arrivals? Just wondering because you seem very keen on telling everyone that no matter what they think good or bad these guys are coming to stay

Do you not think the money we will spend supporting their lives in ireland would not be better spent building quality housing and services for them in conflict free areas in their home country ? where they are with all their friends and family, people of same religion, beliefs, customs, culture and language?

xhoundx

end of the road wrote: »

reducing wellfare won't make a difference. unless people form a union and force up conditions then one will take what they get. if you don't want "cheeper labour" either fight for better conditions or compete. if you can't be bothered to do any of those, then tough **** your loss

Think you need to proof read this one and maybe edit it so it makes some sense

IrishTrajan

end of the road wrote: »

the unemployed are well looked after. the health care system is mismanaged and underfunded, having no immigration won't change that. immigrants are coming. there is nothing you can do about it so get used to it?

Absolute rubbish, bollocks, poppycock. The Australian system has worked, and we should follow them. Whether you believe it has worked or not (it has) does not discredit the actual facts of the matter. That it has worked, that many Australians do support it, and that it will remain in place.

jackofalltrades

end of the road wrote: »

ireland is suffering from a labour shortage in some jobs. the irish won't do those jobs

So you accuse other posters of being racist and then you go and make this racist comment above. Bravo. :rolleyes:

IrishTrajan

end of the road wrote: »

reducing wellfare won't make a difference. unless people form a union and force up conditions then one will take what they get. if you don't want "cheeper labour" either fight for better conditions or compete. if you can't be bothered to do any of those, then tough **** your loss

Yes it will. I'll give you a very, very basic run down of how it works.

1. Reduce welfare leads to reduced expenditure.
2. Reduced expenditure leads to reduced taxation.
3. Reduced taxation leads to cheaper goods/more disposable income for goods.
4. Increased demand for goods will lead to increased demand for labour because there is a profit to be made.

So, yes, reducing welfare should lead to increasing employment.

IrishTrajan

end of the road wrote: »

do you know what the job of the police is? its stopping crime. as they are failing to stop a crime, then they are failing in their duty and are responsible for that crime being able to continue to happen.

And they failed in their jobs because they didn't want to be fired for being called racists by the left-wing. How hard is that to understand? It's not like they actively thought "Gee, how can we let criminals get away with rape and paedophilia?". Jesus Christ.

end of the road

xhoundx wrote: »

Where is the money coming from to pay our unemployed?

its called social wellfare. you should google it

xhoundx wrote: »

Absolutely none but what's that got to do with anything?

you seem to be interested in whether people are homing others so its your job to answer the same question and declare.

xhoundx wrote: »

I not the one pontificating over how we should all welcome anyone who wants to come over here, some even suggested their families would give up their spare rooms but it sure as hell wasn't me

no, you wanted others to home them. so you have no argument

end of the road

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Absolute rubbish, bollocks, poppycock. The Australian system has worked, and we should follow them. Whether you believe it has worked or not (it has) does not discredit the actual facts of the matter. That it has worked, that many Australians do support it, and that it will remain in place.

the australian system hasn't worked, illegal immigrants get in . it has failed and will never work. the fact australians support it is only important for the politicians who will do anything for votes specially conservative politicians. it will remain for political reasons only, just like irish water will remain here dispite the lack of public support. at the end of the day if the australian politicians can make out its a great success and gain votes that is all that matters. votes votes votes. thats what politics is all about

Geuze

Grayson wrote: »

But we are closed for people from outside the EU. If an US graduate (so someone with skills) decided they wanted to emigrate to Ireland there's no way. We don't even have a quota system like the US as far as I know.

Time spent visiting shops and service stations in Dublin reveals many non-EU workers.

While there are 300,000 on the Live Register.

Geuze

end of the road wrote: »

ireland is suffering from a labour shortage in some jobs. the irish won't do those jobs

Well then the 350,000 on the LR should be strongly encouraged to take those jobs.

end of the road

IrishTrajan wrote: »

And they failed in their jobs because they didn't want to be fired for being called racists by the left-wing. How hard is that to understand? It's not like they actively thought "Gee, how can we let criminals get away with rape and paedophilia?". Jesus Christ.

no, they were simply incompitent and used the fear of being called racist as a perfect excuse because idiots will buy it. if you are really worried about being called racist then being a police officer isn't the job for you. they failed to do their jobs, its their fault, fear of being called racist is no excuse, they should have been fired

ebbsy

Thailand has the right idea - push those boats back out to sea.

xhoundx

end of the road wrote: »

its called social wellfare. you should google it

Trying be smart won't work, we only have to read your posts to realise you are in fact thick

end of the road wrote: »

you seem to be interested in whether people are homing others so its your job to answer the same question and declare.

Have you been following the thread? A couple of posters said they would home them, wasn't me

end of the road wrote: »

no, you wanted others to home them. so you have no argument

Yes I want their home countries to home them ideally, failing that I'd prefer to see them homed somewhere where their way of life would be the norm

MorpheusKnight

Originally Posted by xhoundx
Where is the money coming from to pay our unemployed?

end of the road wrote: »

its called social wellfare. you should google it



And where does the money for social welfare come from.

I know - let's increase taxes - again !

Parts of the ME, and Africa, are awash with money. They could go to UAE, Saudi, Iran - lots of places.

Perhaps if their rulers were not so corrupt.

Why come to Ireland where they will be foreigners?

I am tired for paying for every bl**d*n stranger on the planet.

My kids want my money and I now I am expected to donate it to Syrians.

The only refugees I want to see are the ones who are being cleansed from the ME - Copts, Christians and Ba'hai.

The rest can take a flying leap. They have loads of places to go.

IrishTrajan

end of the road wrote: »

the australian system hasn't worked, illegal immigrants get in . it has failed and will never work. the fact australians support it is only important for the politicians who will do anything for votes specially conservative politicians. it will remain for political reasons only, just like irish water will remain here dispite the lack of public support. at the end of the day if the australian politicians can make out its a great success and gain votes that is all that matters. votes votes votes. thats what politics is all about

It is nothing like Irish water. The reason both major parties had immigration controls in their policies, was because the people wanted immigration controls.

They pay several different countries to house asylum seekers and refugees, they have a camp outside of Australia to process any claims for asylum or refuge. Any illegal migrants found in the waters are towed back to the place where they came from, left in international waters with only enough fuel to make it back to their take off point, so they can either go back, or be stuck in the ocean and water for the Coast Guard to pick them up.

Have you read anything about it, or are you just sticking your head in the sand, ignoring facts and going to scream "Doesn't work! Doesn't work! All politicians are liars!"