Is rural Ireland as backwards as people say?

mariaalice

Huntergonzo wrote: »

The influence of the catholic church certainly is weaker than it was in the 40s and 50s but it's certainly not well gone. They are still running over 90% of our primary schools, indoctrinating young children with highly conservative catholic dogma, many of which grow up probably never questioning their unfounded beliefs, if that isn't influence I don't know what is.

Would you go away 90% of the children attending catholic schools will never see the inside of a church again after their communion or conformation, how many registry office/humanist wedding ceremonies did Ireland have last year?

Its weird but there seems to be a cohort of people who seem to need the catholic church as some sort of bogey man to blame all the ills of Irish society on, and need to believe that once you get outside urban Ireland rural areas are a hotbed:) of sexual repressed Neanderthals and thats what holding Ireland back.

keithclancy

I would say different, not backwards.

E.G.
They would borrow tools from each other
Make sure each other are ok
Get shopping for old people
Stop at the roadside if someone is stuck to give them a hand, a farmer will turn up with a tractor usually much quicker than a tow truck from the AA if your car is stuck in much someplace.
Everyone knows each other by name

On the downside everyone knows each other business and many people move to the more populated areas to get away from this.

conorhal

mariaalice wrote: »

Would you go away 90% of the children attending catholic schools will never see the inside of a church again after their communion or conformation, how many registry office/humanist wedding ceremonies did Ireland have last year?

Its weird but there seems to be a cohort of people who seem to need the catholic church as some sort of bogey man to blame all the ills of Irish society on, and need to believe that once you get outside urban Ireland rural areas are a hotbed:) of sexual repressed Neanderthals and thats what holding Ireland back.

What's even weirder is the fact that most of them are not even of the generation that might be entitled to a genuine grievance against the church or had to butt up against it when the popular tide was in its favour.
They're vestigial social warriors desperate to resuscitate the corpse of an old enemy so that they can continue to rebel, because they're uncomfortable with the fact that they are the establishment now.
Their preference of toothless targets also explains the sniffy attitude towards country folk, aparently the only target for their right on wrath that they can find these days happens to be people that attend tea dances in the local parish hall, oooh those warriors for social justice will show them!
.

William F

mariaalice wrote: »

Would you go away 90% of the children attending catholic schools will never see the inside of a church again

The damage is already done by then.

realdanbreen

Huntergonzo wrote: »

The influence of the catholic church certainly is weaker than it was in the 40s and 50s but it's certainly not well gone. They are still running over 90% of our primary schools, indoctrinating young children with highly conservative catholic dogma, many of which grow up probably never questioning their unfounded beliefs, if that isn't influence I don't know what is.

Then why don't atheists set up their own primary schools? Oh hang on, only a tiny fraction of the population are atheists,agnostics pagans or whatever yet they want the rest of the population to change to suit them.

mariaalice

William F wrote: »

The damage is already done by then.

What damage would that be now? I personally don't believe in mixing educational and religion if possible but I don't believe in getting stridden about it, nor do I believe a catholic school education damages anyone.

realdanbreen

William F wrote: »

The damage is already done by then.

Sweet Jusus, not another 'victim' who blames all his woes and misfortunes on others. Man up FFS!

William F

You have to have gone to a secular school to understand what I'm on about.

mariaalice

conorhal wrote: »

What's even weirder is the fact that most of them are not even of the generation that might be entitled to a genuine grievance against the church or had to butt up against it when the popular tide was in its favour.
They're a bit like some old McCarthyite still checking for reds under the bed, vestigial social warriors desperate to resuscitate the corpse of an old enemy so that they can continue to rebe, because they're uncomfortable with the fact that they are the establishment now. It also explains the sniffy attitude towards country folk, aparently the best target for their wrath they can now find is people that attend tea dances.
.

There is something else going on as well and you see it here at time,

The poster is projecting their own issues (often something sexual) on to... cultural Catholicism/ the actual catholic church... they blame Irish society for their own issues instead of owing their own issue and dealing with them.

Huntergonzo

realdanbreen wrote: »

Then why don't atheists set up their own primary schools? Oh hang on, only a tiny fraction of the population are atheists,agnostics pagans or whatever yet they want the rest of the population to change to suit them.

We don't want the rest of the country to change to suit us, please think rationally before posting tripe. The reason most people on this Island consider themselves catholic is because over 90% of our national schools indoctrinate children with catholic dogma, schools should be secular and teach only what is known as fact. As an atheist I would not want children thought that there is no God either so there's no need for 'atheist schools'.

conorhal

mariaalice wrote: »

What damage would that be now? I personally don't believe in mixing educational and religion if possible but I don't believe in getting stridden about it, nor do I believe a catholic school education damages anyone.

Catholic education is long gone, Sure how many priests, nuns or brothers teach a class or sit on a school board? Feck all.
As for RE, as far as friends with school age kids tell me it's little more than a comparative anthropology class witih some civics and careers guidance thrown in.
My friends son spent most of RE classes in the last few months doing a project on WW1 soldiers and cording to him it's a religious class that doesn't even have a bible in the room, nor ever seen one opened.
This pretty much tipifies RE in Irish schools these days as far as I can see.

Huntergonzo

mariaalice wrote: »

Would you go away 90% of the children attending catholic schools will never see the inside of a church again after their communion or conformation, how many registry office/humanist wedding ceremonies did Ireland have last year?

Its weird but there seems to be a cohort of people who seem to need the catholic church as some sort of bogey man to blame all the ills of Irish society on, and need to believe that once you get outside urban Ireland rural areas are a hotbed:) of sexual repressed Neanderthals and thats what holding Ireland back.

So what's the point in telling a child 'you're catholic' then if 90% (a made up figure) will never see the inside of a church. There's no getting away from the fact that if you teach small children religious dogma, some of it will stick with them for a very long time and hence influence them.

I don't know how many weddings were in a church last year but I'm gonna say there was a very large portion of children baptized because the state allows the church to discriminate against non baptized children in the school admission process.

conorhal

mariaalice wrote: »

There is something else going on as well and you see it here at time,

The poster is projecting their own issues on to... cultural Catholicism/ the actual catholic church... they blame Irish society for their own issues instead of owing their own issue and dealing with them.

Well we live in the era where the only taboo left is 'personal responsibility'. There is no failing too large or small that can't be projected onto society, the church or government as the reason for personal failings, and failing that can I suggest some kind of undiagnosed '-ism' for which they also aren't to blame.

It's a lot easier to hide from the real truth, we are society, we are the church and we are the government, without our complicity none of what was done could have been done.

Grayson

Santa Cruz wrote: »

So sectarian it named its premier trophy after a Protestant Sam Maguire and has elected a Protestant a President of the GAA Jack Boothman.

Wasn't that nice of them. I particularly liked the way they banned people from playing other sports. Because they were english sports.

mariaalice

conorhal wrote: »

Well we live in the era where the only taboo left is 'personal responsibility'. There is no failing too large or small that can't be projected onto society, the church or government as the reason for personal failings, and failing that can I suggest some kind of undiagnosed '-ism' for which they also aren't to blame.

It's a lot easier to hide from the real truth, we are society, we are the church and we are the government, without our complicity none of what was done could have been done.

In the past the catholic church did have huge influence and worked along with society (society doesn't exist as a separate entity society is made up of individuals ) to shape a certin type of society.

However to blame the catholic church/society because you are uncomfortable with your self sexualy or emotionally is laughable in todays society.

realdanbreen

Huntergonzo wrote: »

We don't want the rest of the country to change to suit us, please think rationally before posting tripe. The reason most people on this Island consider themselves catholic is because over 90% of our national schools indoctrinate children with catholic dogma, schools should be secular and teach only what is known as fact. As an atheist I would not want children thought that there is no God either so there's no need for 'atheist schools'.

Last time I checked it was up to the parents to influence their children. As far as tripe is concerned, I have never met anyone who felt they were indocrinated with religion to the extent that it bothered them. You are an atheist, thats your own business but the other 98.5% of the population are not so rather than getting all hot and bothered about a God that you don't believe in just chill.

Huntergonzo

conorhal wrote: »

It's a lot easier to hide from the real truth, we are society, we are the church and we are the government, without our complicity none of what was done could have been done.

This is true but again old habits are hard to break, I mean personally I don't think children should be brought up and told 'you're a catholic' or 'you're a muslim' or you're a fine gael supporter or fianna fail supporter etc etc. I mean you don't hear many people call their child 'a left wing socialist' or 'right wing conservative', so why call them catholic or jewish or FF or FG supporters?

I think if people come to these conclusions when they are informed adults then fine, go for it, but society will find it harder to change once these labels are stuck onto children.

Grayson

mariaalice wrote: »

In the past the catholic church did have huge influence and worked along with society (society doesn't exist as a separate entity society is made up of individuals ) to shape a certin type of society.

However to blame the catholic church/society because you are uncomfortable with your self sexual or emotionally is laughable in todays society.

Especially if you are a teacher.

mariaalice

I have to add I don't agree with victim blaming its more complex than that, how individuals construct meaning is complex.

mariaalice

Grayson wrote: »

Especially if you are a teacher.

Society is not perfect no society is.

Huntergonzo

realdanbreen wrote: »

Last time I checked it was up to the parents to influence their children. As far as tripe is concerned, I have never met anyone who felt they were indocrinated with religion to the extent that it bothered them. You are an atheist, thats your own business but the other 98.5% of the population are not so rather than getting all hot and bothered about a God that you don't believe in just chill.

Yes and the church influenced their parents and their grandparents and their great grandparents etc etc, notice a pattern? Most people in Ireland were indoctrinated with catholic dogma, there's nothing controversial about saying that, it's just the way our education system is structured.

States and schools should be secular, they shouldn't be taking sides with any particular religion and equally they shouldn't teach children this is no God, just teach what is known and allow children the freedom to believe in whatever they want outside of class, simple and fair.

98.5%? I don't know how many atheists there actually are in Ireland, in anycase it's not really relevant because atheists are just people who don't believe in god and I already said I would be against schools teaching children that there is no god, they should be free to come to that conclusion themselves.

topper75

realdanbreen wrote: »

Then why don't atheists set up their own primary schools?

To be fair it was the British government (who as we all know governed Ireland in the 19th cent) who set up the primary schools. They handed over the running of them to the RC church, for convenience sake. Atheists (for the record I am not one) were not big on the ground at the time.

The RC church didn't need to be asked twice. And here we are.

History is not a useless story about the past. It is an invaluable explanation of the present.

Grayson

mariaalice wrote: »

Society is not perfect no society is.

So we accept the wrongs? Or we could vote to change them.

I'm fed up with religious people saying they are being targeted and persecuted. Imagine what it's like being a gay person. Or even an atheist.

Try to create a society that's as accepting as possible. Not overnight, but bit by bit. Identify what's wrong and change it.

Saying "Society isn't perfect" is a stupid lazy cop out.

Grayson

realdanbreen wrote: »

Last time I checked it was up to the parents to influence their children. As far as tripe is concerned, I have never met anyone who felt they were indocrinated with religion to the extent that it bothered them. You are an atheist, thats your own business but the other 98.5% of the population are not so rather than getting all hot and bothered about a God that you don't believe in just chill.

The term ethicists use to describe something like that is "Tyranny of the majority"

And everyone was indoctrinated. We sat there for decades being told the catholic church was the one true church. Homosexuality was a sin. Contraception was a sin. **** was a sin.

When you're forced into a room to be told that every day, that's the definition of indoctrination.

mariaalice

Grayson wrote: »

So we accept the wrongs? Or we could vote to change them.

I'm fed up with religious people saying they are being targeted and persecuted. Imagine what it's like being a gay person. Or even an atheist.

Try to create a society that's as accepting as possible. Not overnight, but bit by bit. Identify what's wrong and change it.

Saying "Society isn't perfect" is a stupid lazy cop out.

I think you might be misinterpreting me a bit I don't have any time for the church is being persecuted type thinking, I was talking about individuals who project most of the ills of society on to the catholic church and other nonsensical ideas such as projecting their own sexual repression on the catholic church or Irish society in general, don't seem to have the slightest insight in to themselves.

Grayson

mariaalice wrote: »

I think you might be misinterpreting me a bit I don't have any time for the church is being persecuted type thinking, I was talking about individuals who project most of the ills of society on to the catholic church and other nonsensical ideas such as projecting their own sexual repression on the catholic church or Irish society in general, don't seem to have the slightest insight in to themselves.

I wouldn't blame them for the banking crises. However their influence can definitely be felt. They do control most of the schools. That influence can't be understated.

meeeeh

Grayson wrote: »

I'm fed up with religious people saying they are being targeted and persecuted. Imagine what it's like being a gay person. Or even an atheist.

Oh yeah us atheists have it hard. I mean we have to step in a church for funerals. Oh the persecution oh the horror.

Majority of atheists are fairly educated white males, the most privileged group in society so get over yourself. This thread is completely bonkers.

Grayson

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh yeah us atheists have it hard. I mean we have to step in a church for funerals. Oh the persecution oh the horror.

Majority of atheists are fairly educated white males, the most privileged group in society so get over yourself. This thread is completely bonkers.

And the majority weren't raised athiest. In the very large midlands town I grew up in there wasn't a single non religious primary school. Each school asks for a baptismal cert. It's perfectly legal for each school to refuse admittance to a child based on the religion of the parents.

realdanbreen

topper75 wrote: »

To be fair it was the British government (who as we all know governed Ireland in the 19th cent) who set up the primary schools. They handed over the running of them to the RC church, for convenience sake. Atheists (for the record I am not one) were not big on the ground at the time.

The RC church didn't need to be asked twice. And here we are.

History is not a useless story about the past. It is an invaluable explanation of the present.

Whats any of that got to do with atheists wanting the other 98.5% of the population to conform to their ways?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Marinate the nether rod
In the squish mitten

Power drill the yippee bog
With the dude piston

Pressure wash the quiver bone
In the bitch wrinkle

Cannonball the fiddle cove
Ooh la la
With the pork steeple