Is rural Ireland as backwards as people say?

UCDVet

walkingshadow wrote: »

Because voting not to extend marriage equal rights to all members of our society is an inherently backward attitude, wherever the person lives.

I'm pro gay marriage but I feel like this is misleading and I see it everywhere right now. 'Equality' seems like an inappropriate word here. The law is already equal. Gay or Straight, regardless of your sexual orientation, the law treats everyone the same. You can marry someone of the opposite sex.

And, clearly, nobody is actually arguing for the rights of anyone to marry anyone else. While I'd support such a law, we're not fighting for that. That would require allowing incest and polygamy (both of which I support - consenting adults should be free to do whatever they want, IMHO, but that's just me).

So a lot of people are saying equal rights to all members of society - but this gay marriage thing isn't about that. It's about extending the already equal rights pertaining to who they can marry, so that they can marry certain types of people that they can't currently marry, but will still leave lots of other people who love each other and want to get married, out in the cold.

realdanbreen

walkingshadow wrote: »

Name one "further problem down the road"

I'm not an advocate for any group yes or no. In fact I have a problem with gobshytes putting a sticker on their lapel and telling me how to vote, I'm well able to make up my own mind.In fact its nauesating watching the political party's being so exercised about gay people when its not that long ago when all of them stood by as gay people were treated as criminals and forced into back alleys and public toilets.

John_Rambo

realdanbreen wrote: »

False.

True according to the CSO, but I'm sure you're research will prove the CSO wrong.

Dublin has the highest rate of employment and the lowest rate of unemployment. The Border region has the lowest rate of employment and the South-East has the highest rate of unemployment.

realdanbreen wrote: »

In fact I have a problem with gobshytes putting a sticker on their lapel and telling me how to vote

They're trying to sway opinion, nobodies telling you how to vote, that's up to your if your old enough. This happens in most countries, people wave flags, wear badges, put up posters, have debates etc... It's a shame you have a problem with it.

walkingshadow

UCDVet wrote: »

You can marry someone of the opposite sex.

Congratulations, you have solved the problem. Gay people can just marry people of the opposite sex. How come no one has ever thought of that before?

realdanbreen

Paddy Power are giving 20-1 for North Tipp to reject the gay marriage, those odds are attractive enough to swing my vote anyway.

irish coldplayer

realdanbreen wrote: »

Paddy Power are giving 20-1 for North Tipp to reject the gay marriage, those odds are attractive enough to swing my vote anyway.

Ah no they aren't
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/irish-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=2041388

Dick phelan

Why is a love of the GAA used to call somebody backward, I live in an Urban area and love GAA and if the turnout at Dublin matches is anything to go by so do many others living in urban area's. I really don't think it's an urban vs rural thing, it's an age thing urban area's tend to have younger populations compared to rural area's which have an aging population and many of the young people may have left the area. Anyway just because someone is voting no in the SSM referendum does not make them backward and to suggest it does is pure ignorance.

donegal.

walkingshadow wrote: »

Congratulations, you have solved the problem. Gay people can just marry people of the opposite sex. How come no one has ever thought of that before?

sure can the gays not just marry the lesbians? or perhaps my thinking is geographically hindered.

UCDVet

walkingshadow wrote: »

Congratulations, you have solved the problem. Gay people can just marry people of the opposite sex. How come no one has ever thought of that before?

The problem isn't one of equality though. Everyone is treated equally. Saying, 'Gay people can't work here' or 'Gay people can't adopt children' - those are example of inequitable treatment.

And it's also not about equality for all, as the proposed changes to marriage law will only extend who you can marry. There will still be people who legally cannot marry whom they choose.

Again, I'm pro-gay marriage, I just think the wording is completely wrong. It's not about equality (the same laws apply to everyone) and it's not 'for everyone' (I still won't be able to marry my sister, if we wanted to, or marry three dudes whom all which to be married to each other).

It's about changing a law to let some more people marry some more other people. And I support it 100%, just not the campaign slogans.

realdanbreen

irish coldplayer wrote: »

Ah no they aren't
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/irish-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=2041388

But they are giving North Tipp 20-1 to return the highest no vote.

BoJack Horseman

UCDVet wrote: »

There will still be people who legally cannot marry whom they choose.

I still won't be able to marry my sister, if we wanted to, or marry three dudes whom all which to be married to each other.

It behoves you then to create the pro-incest/polygamy groundswell.

Political movements start with one man & a dream.

whisky_galore

Lollipop95 wrote: »

Well, here's my take on it:

I'm a culchie and live in a small village. About an hour from Galway city. MOST of the older people (probably around 50 and upwards) are voting no in the marriage referendum - Including my mother and father. They just "can't understand" why gay people need to marry and why not just be happy with a civil partnership. I have tried to convince them to vote yes (I will vote yes and I'm straight but I've 2 male friends who are gay and I know this referendum means a lot to them) but they just think the whole thing is ridiculous.

There's no way you're going to change older peoples' minds, like all the sh*t that went down in the church and many of them are still slavishly devoted to it and they will ignore or filter out all the 'bad stuff'.

andrew

UCDVet wrote: »

The problem isn't one of equality though. Everyone is treated equally. Saying, 'Gay people can't work here' or 'Gay people can't adopt children' - those are example of inequitable treatment.

Why isn't 'gay people can't marry one another' not also an example of inequitable treatment?

And it's also not about equality for all, as the proposed changes to marriage law will only extend who you can marry. There will still be people who legally cannot marry whom they choose.

Again, I'm pro-gay marriage, I just think the wording is completely wrong. It's not about equality (the same laws apply to everyone) and it's not 'for everyone' (I still won't be able to marry my sister, if we wanted to, or marry three dudes whom all which to be married to each other).

It's about changing a law to let some more people marry some more other people. And I support it 100%, just not the campaign slogans.

At worst, then, it's about eqality for more people, which is good.

But more than that, gay people are born gay, it's not just a preference. So, their innate desire to marry one another should be recognised. Being polyamerous or incestuous strikes me as more of a preference than being gay, so there's not so much of a need for the government to recognise it (though I wouldn't really have a problem with either of those things).

Dirty Dingus McGee

walkingshadow wrote: »

We'll know after Friday if rural Ireland is as backwards as people say.

No we'll just know what way people voted in various constiuencies.

realdanbreen

whisky_galore wrote: »

There's no way you're going to change older peoples' minds, like all the sh*t that went down in the church and many of them are still slavishly devoted to it and they will ignore or filter out all the 'bad stuff'.

Do you not realise that 90% of 'the sh*t that went down in the church' as you call it happens within the family circle, dads, brothers,uncles, cousins, family 'friends' etc. Its the big Elephant in the room that permeates society as a whole.

whisky_galore

realdanbreen wrote: »

Do you not realise that 90% of 'the sh*t that went down in the church' as you call it happens within the family circle, dads, brothers,uncles, cousins, family 'friends' etc. Its the big Elephant in the room that permeates society as a whole.

Families aren't organisations that kept records of creeps and moved them on to other families to do more damage.

Huntergonzo

I'm a huge Meath Gaa fan, I love most sports actually but Gaa is my no.1, I grew up on and still live on a farm and I was raised catholic, although religion wasn't very important in our house. I'm an atheist now, my 2 sisters are agnostics (or something to that effect) and my parents go to mass maybe 4 or 5 times a year and guess what, we're all voting Yes!

Santa Cruz

whisky_galore wrote: »

Families aren't organisations that kept records of creeps and moved them on to other families to do more damage.

No. Families are the organisations that covered it up, shoved their pregnant single daughters into Magdalen laundries or to "work in England with Auntie Molly" and their gay children into loony bins and pretended everything was grand

Balmed Out

Santa Cruz wrote: »

No. Families are the organisations that covered it up, shoved their pregnant single daughters into Magdalen laundries or to "work in England with Auntie Molly" and their gay children into loony bins and pretended everything was grand

Their also the ones who stood by their gay son Dave and unmarried daughter Michelle.....
Dont see where your going with that.

Huntergonzo

Santa Cruz wrote: »

No. Families are the organisations that covered it up, shoved their pregnant single daughters into Magdalen laundries or to "work in England with Auntie Molly" and their gay children into loony bins and pretended everything was grand

And which institution had the families of Ireland brainwashed into believing that those people were evil sinners and that sending them away was the right thing to do?

pmasterson95

Ah now its stop bashing country folk and blame the church. That took longer than usual.

wakka12

realdanbreen wrote: »

But that is only your opinion. We live in a democracy(BTW the first shots fired to acheive that democracy were fired in Tipperary) and if a majority see the referendum as giving rise to further problems down the road then calling them backward as a result is plain stupid.

Because the majority always pick whats best :roll eyes: If the majority of irish people voted to ban all african immigrants due to the crime problems they are more likely to cause 'further down the road'. You wouldn't consider that backward? Lol

Santa Cruz

realdanbreen wrote: »

But that is only your opinion. We live in a democracy(BTW the first shots fired to acheive that democracy were fired in Tipperary) and if a majority see the referendum as giving rise to further problems down the road then calling them backward as a result is plain stupid.

"BTW the first shots fired to acheive that democracy were fired in Tipperary"

You have a very limited knowledge of Irish history. Have you heard of 1798, The Fenian Brotherhood, 1916 or are you too busy eating your dinner in the middle of the day?

wp_rathead

dont bother wrote: »

well, we can just hope that the culchies try to be "cool" and "with it" enough to vote yes.

although, the massive chip on their shoulder will prevent this most likely, and they'll see it as a vote against dubs rather than a vote against sense.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

realdanbreen

Santa Cruz wrote: »

"BTW the first shots fired to acheive that democracy were fired in Tipperary"

You have a very limited knowledge of Irish history. Have you heard of 1798, The Fenian Brotherhood, 1916 or are you too busy eating your dinner in the middle of the day?

With all due respect to the men of 1798 apart from knocking a few good old republican songs such as the croppy boy & Boulavogue out of their endevors they did'nt acheive a lot. The shots fired in Solohead Co Tipp kick started the revolution.

realdanbreen

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I'm a huge Meath Gaa fan, I love most sports actually but Gaa is my no.1, I grew up on and still live on a farm and I was raised catholic, although religion wasn't very important in our house. I'm an atheist now, my 2 sisters are agnostics (or something to that effect) and my parents go to mass maybe 4 or 5 times a year and guess what, we're all voting Yes!

And what has that got to do with the title of the topic?

noway12345

Rural Ireland backwards? If not costing the state billions and not having a load of junkies walking the streets is backwards, then I suppose rural Ireland is backwards.

Huntergonzo

realdanbreen wrote: »

And what has that got to do with the title of the topic?

My post was in relation to the very first post, where he mentions the referendum, the Gaa, the catholic church and farming.

So have I got your special permission to post now? :P

Paramite Pie

Minderbinder wrote: »

Am, since when does voting no equate to being backward? Since when has popularity been redefined as progressive? Backwards is rejecting any form of change without due consideration. That doesn't mean we shouldn't reject certain changes if we feel their not right.

I felt he was backward because he said gay couples are unnatural & disgusting. (and yes the word disgusting was used). He was like 'could you imagine two fellas...' and cut off there and said it was disgusting. The implication I got was referring to physical activity. Another man agreed with him and I just started an unrelated conversation with his wife who seemed a bit embarrassed.

With that in mind, I really can't see how he could have considered this very deeply - it seems more like dismissal of the concept of homosexuality itself as inherently wrong in the first place. Therefore I feel he fits your definition of 'Backward'.

I know people who have gay friends and are voting no, I don't consider them backwards. I know one gay guy who's voting no and I don't think he's an internalised self-hating 'phobe either. I have time for people who are considering voting No because they worry about implications on children -even if I disagree and see their worry as misguided. Their not coming from a place of hate. There's always some who are slow to come around to changes to the status quo & I think they'll see that they were wrong one day.

What I don't have time for is people who think it's disgusting for two male or two female adults to be attracted to each other or have sex.

realdanbreen

Huntergonzo wrote: »

My post was in relation to the very first post, where he mentions the referendum, the Gaa, the catholic church and farming.

So have I got your special permission to post now? :P

So you reckon if all families voted the same way like yours does that it would be a sign that they were progressive and not backward?

donegal.

realdanbreen wrote: »

And what has that got to do with the title of the topic?

its the only post in ages that directly addresses the OP

goat2

jonnypacket wrote: »

With all the talk about the upcoming referendum on gay marriage, I often hear people worry that it will be rejected due to the conservative, backward nature of rural Ireland. Obviously rural Ireland is not as cosmopolitan as Dublin and so the people there are less exposed to gay culture so perhaps their opinions stem from innocent ignorance. I'm not familiar with Ireland outside of Dublin but I imagine rural dwellers are more fixated on farming, GAA and the Catholic church. How true is this?

i dont agree with you, i am rural Ireland, and i am a well traveled person, open minded, parts of rural Ireland may be more cosmopolitan than Dublin, and you put obviously before it,
what backward nature are you on about,
what do you mean less exposed to gay culture, i have gay and straight friends,
what innocence and ignorance, ( I find that insulting)
i am very familiar with the whole country, travel the length and breath of it and am in Dublin a couple times a year, you are only familiar with Dublin,
we are fixated with travel tourism, sport of all kinds, farming, socializing and of course enjoying that crisp fresh air, along with many more, too much to mention

Huntergonzo

realdanbreen wrote: »

So you reckon if all families voted the same way like yours does that it would be a sign that they were progressive and not backward?

No, I'm just giving an example of some rural people who are contrary to the stereotype as again our OP said he wasn't familiar with Ireland outside of Dublin. As for what's progressive and what's backward well that's probably a pretty subjective matter, I mean I would consider voting Yes progressive but maybe others wouldn't, I don't know what your thoughts are.

goat2

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

With lots of 'road frontage'
I always wondered why this 'frontage' makes land more valuable.Is it because advertising boards for local businesses can be placed on the side of the road therefore increasing the revenue for the landowner?Or am I way off the mark?
Back on topic,in the internet age we live in no place could really be considered backwards,some of the people on the other hand...

horses like looking over the ditch at what is passing by

UCDVet

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It behoves you then to create the peo-incest/polygamy groundswell.

Political movements start with one man & a dream.

I know that you probably mean that as a tongue-in-cheek remark, but I strongly believe that it's just as wrong to disallow inter-racial marriage as it is same-sex marriage as it is incestuous marriage, as it is polygamous marriage.

And it really does bother me that gay marriage supporters are claiming this is about 'treating everyone equally', when, clearly, it's just another subgroup of people (same sex). They're not campaigning for everyone's right to marry, just their own.

Now, I support them, because I think it's right. But this is like saying 'You can't beat your wife on Tuesdays'. I support that, but it's also wrong to do it in those other cases. The government shouldn't have any say over who I marry, with the exception of protecting individuals who cannot protect themselves (underage and/or those who are truly unable to make an informed decision about their life).

So yeah - I hope that, one day, I'll be free to marry whomever I want.

wakka12

Dick phelan wrote: »

Why is a love of the GAA used to call somebody backward, I live in an Urban area and love GAA and if the turnout at Dublin matches is anything to go by so do many others living in urban area's. I really don't think it's an urban vs rural thing, it's an age thing urban area's tend to have younger populations compared to rural area's which have an aging population and many of the young people may have left the area. Anyway just because someone is voting no in the SSM referendum does not make them backward and to suggest it does is pure ignorance.

No..theres definitely a rural element, rural people are older on average but not by enough to have a signifant effect on the number of No voters solly because of the age difference. I think there might be something like 2-3% more people aged 18-25 in Dublin than say Mayo. Its quite a large difference but nothing that would have huge effects on the polls. Besides the age difference is restored anyway because a huge number of country students/young workers who make the Dub population younger have to go back to their home constituency to vote anyway

loveta

If the no. Vote wins tomorrow but say only by 5 or less percent will we have to go through all this again?
But if the yes win by the same small margin will the campaign be run again to give the no side another shot.

Santa Cruz

realdanbreen wrote: »

With all due respect to the men of 1798 apart from knocking a few good old republican songs such as the croppy boy & Boulavogue out of their endevors they did'nt acheive a lot. The shots fired in Solohead Co Tipp kick started the revolution.

It didn't. It was just a continuation of what happened in 1916

realdanbreen

Santa Cruz wrote: »

It didn't. It was just a continuation of what happened in 1916

You do know that 1916 wasn't just about what happened in and around the GPO?

Paramite Pie

UCDVet wrote: »

And it really does bother me that gay marriage supporters are claiming this is about 'treating everyone equally', when, clearly, it's just another subgroup of people (same sex). They're not campaigning for everyone's right to marry, just their own.

Well in fairness, since religious, civil & inter-racial marriage is legal for straight couples it'd surely be a bit redundant to campaign for it?

Unless you want a vote on straight marriage too? Would you feel it was closer to equality if you could vote NO to opposite sex marriage?

loveta wrote: »

If the no. Vote wins tomorrow but say only by 5 or less percent will we have to go through all this again?
But if the yes win by the same small margin will the campaign be run again to give the no side another shot.

California passed same-sex marriage and the No campaign undid it a month later. It took another 5 years to pass same-sex marriage again.
If a Political Party in Ireland wanted to have another referendum, they could. Since most of our politicians are Centre and not Right Wing, it's unlikely.

I don't necessarily think that all Irish politicians are pro-same sex marriage, however I do believe many are not strongly opposed either. There's little political appetite for a re-run on the no side.

Kermit.de.frog

I would not say country people are "backward". What a terrible thing to say.

I'd say they are more unsophisticated.

fryup

as long as the catholic church and the GAA are the main social influences then i'm afraid ireland will always be a bit backward...(both urban & rural)

realdanbreen

fryup wrote: »

as long as the catholic church and the GAA are the main social influences then i'm afraid ireland will always be a bit backward...(both urban & rural)

Then why do you choose to live in Ireland? Only a very weak Individual would remain in a country that they view as being backward.

Kermit.de.frog

fryup wrote: »

as long as the catholic church and the GAA are the main social influences then i'm afraid ireland will always be a bit backward...(both urban & rural)

What's wrong with the GAA?

Stoned Since 2011

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What's wrong with the GAA?

what is right with them?

magma69

realdanbreen wrote: »

Then why do you choose to live in Ireland? Only a very weak Individual would remain in a country that they view as being backward.

Struggle to see the logic in that statement. Only a weak person would run away to another country instead of staying and trying to better the place they were born and reared in?

In my experience, people from rural areas have quite varied views though probably a higher percentage of socially conservative minded people than you'd get in urban areas.

Also, those somehow linking following GAA with being backward are being incredibly silly. It's a sports organisation ffs.

magma69

fryup wrote: »

as long as the catholic church and the GAA are the main social influences then i'm afraid ireland will always be a bit backward...(both urban & rural)

How is the GAA a main social influence. Is GAAism some sort of school of thought that people subscribe to? What's their official manifesto?

Minderbinder

realdanbreen wrote: »

Then why do you choose to live in Ireland? Only a very weak Individual would remain in a country that they view as being backward.

that's a very backward statement. you'd have no time for any of these civil rights movements then? martin luther king should have just moved to nigeria i suppose.

Grayson

Paramite Pie wrote: »

I don't necessarily think that all Irish politicians are pro-same sex marriage, however I do believe many are not strongly opposed either. There's little political appetite for a re-run on the no side.

When you get down to it gay marriage isn't a big deal. Nobody thinks the country will be worse for it. It's not like we're legalizing crystal meth or assault rifles. If it's legalised it won't turn everyones lives upside down (Well, maybe the people who get married will have a big change in their lives ).

Even they yes side aren't saying that Ireland is a hellhole that needs change. They're just saying that it's the right thing to do.

That's why it's a bit crazy that you see so much hysteria from some of the No side. Especially with some of the weird scenarios that they throw out.

It's like immigration. In the UK it's perfectly acceptable to have concerns about emigration. It's acceptable in any country. However our anti abortion crowd are closer to UKIP or BNP in terms of craziness than they are to conservatives.
Although a lot of tories will pick up on common sentiment and address immigration they're still going to distance themselves from rightwing parties.

In our case there are a few politicians who rely on the rightwing catholic vote and are against it, most realise it's not a political vote winner and want to distance themselves from the No crowd.

That sounds very cynical. I do believe most are supporting because they believe it's the corrrect thing to do. But I also believe there are some that would have supported a no vote if they thought it would help themselves.

Grayson

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What's wrong with the GAA?

It was founded as a sectarian organisation.