Star Wars: Rogue One *spoilers from post 1195*

PhiloCypher

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I actually very much reckon that the core 'rebels steal Death Star plans' doesn't actually need Tarken, Vader or the actual Death Star at all - think it could be told almost entirely with a new cast of characters on both sides of the battle. But that's purely a hypothetical, and again no screenwriter

They could also have made a Star Wars : Wikileaks film with absolutely no stormtroopers where Bodhi Assange releases the plans onto the galactic net, but like Aronofsky's Batman year one thats a thought experiment that was never going to see the light of day. Like it or not Tarkin and Vader are inextricably linked to the first deathstar , to not feature them would have been bizarre , especially in the first anthology movie. Again let me stress im all for them shining a light on other areas of the universe in the future and not relying so much on established characters , but given the story they chose to tell their inclusion was appropriate imo.

My issues with that scene boil down to the delivery (also felt it was a heavily signposted and predictable sequence generally though, hence the 'shock' was no particular surprise). The framing choice defangs the scene, almost underplays it as if they don't quite want to show him pulling the trigger. Not expecting guts to be spilled or anything like that - it is bloomin' Star Wars! - but don't think it's particularly impactful in its current form. For an in series example of how to handle such an event in a more visceral way, I'd point towards Han shooting Greedo (although Lucas himself introduced some unneeded ambiguity to that scene with his silly re-edits). Obviously you have to realise scenes differently from film to film, but this one didn't work for me (alongside, as I've said, many other things).

You saw it coming ? well your a more cynical man then me then , given how they had been portrayed in the past I was expecting the rebel informant to go suicide by stormtrooper after being wounded to allow Cassian to escape. As for the framing of it , I'd argue lucas's framing of the Han Greedo scene signposts whats to come far more as we actually see him reaching for his blaster under the table. At least here we(well most of us) don't realise whats happened till we hear the blast and he slumps to the ground.

As for the

character deaths, sure - but that is defanged by all of the main characters dying in a heroic sacrifice or blaze of glory: something that overplays the 'cheesy war movie' cliches of the film.

How should they have died ? the heroic sacrifice trope is part and parcel of war and Star Wars films , considering how cynical Disney is meant to be I'd have thought the fact that it

eschews the hero survives trope and kills of Jynn and Cassian

instead of keeping them around for future Rogues would be worthy of praise not used as a stick because Dirty Dozen did it first.

What the film lacks IMO is the sort of brutality you see in, say, Revenge of the Sith (a mostly terrible film, I hasten to add, but pulls off scenes like Windu's death with rather brutal aplomb by the prequels' terrible standards at least). Similarly, the Empire Strikes Back is brutal and relatively bruising (Luke losing his hand being an example) in a way this IMO isn't. For a film which sets out to be grittier, darker and more serious-minded than earlier Star Wars films, personally I just feel there's better examples of how to pull that off in the series itself

I never thought I'd see Revenge of the Sith used as an example of anything done right , especially by you Johnny. From what I haven't blocked out from that terrible terrible film Anakin bloodlessly lops off his hands and Palpatine force lightening's him out the window. Maybe if Lucas had made Anakin likeable before turning him into a psychopath or Haydens conflicted face didn't make him look constipated I could agree with you that it was an effective scene but as is, its just empty an empty spectacle, for me anyways.
Luke's hand on the other hand IS an example of it done right.

Kirby

Maybe I'm being a bit dense here....but was there even a nod to "many bothans dying"? I was sure there would be a fan service nod or even a joke about this throwawy line in the original but I couldnt find one. Did I miss it? Or was that Bothan line in Jedi? My memory is not what it was.

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

Maybe I'm being a bit dense here....but was there even a nod to "many bothans dying"? I was sure there would be a fan service nod or even a joke about this throwawy line in the original but I couldnt find one. Did I miss it?

That was from Return of the Jedi. The plans for Death Star 2.

mikhail

Penn wrote: »

I agree. They probably could have used Tarkin a bit less considering they were CGI-ing him, but it added a lot to it that he was there. As for Vader, a point was made previously that his fight scene is "not quite as emotionally or visually impactful as the epic lightsaber duels in TFA or especially ESB", and in my opinion they made the absolute right choice in how they choreographed his scene in this one, which really showed why the rebels fear him in ANH. He's not like Anakin in the prequels, with flashy jumps or spinning the lightsaber round. He just walks straight through the rebels, each hit perfectly measured to do the most damage. Each wave of his hand throwing someone about with minimal effort, and to the rebels, most of whom may never have even seen a Jedi or a Sith, it highlights how under-powered the rebels truly are. Vader wasn't up against someone with a lightsaber. The rebels were never a threat to him.

I really hoped that it would end in that kind of a scene, but rather than a bunch of redshirts, he'd be casually mowing down at least some of our crack team of rebel spies. His proximity to the plans would have made for a little more tension (granted, there's a limit to how much you can do when everyone knows what comes next), that brutal an ending to the spies would have diluted the sequence of cliche heroic deaths, and then there's the Worf effect - it'd have made Vader significantly scarier to see him swat aside the protagonists.

I liked the movie, for all its flaws. I found the CGI uncanny valley effect unsettling, didn't laugh at most of the jokes (Vader's "choke" pun was especially cringeworthy), and think the characters are a little undercooked. The seams from the reshoots were also especially visible around Saw Gerrera, who felt like a big character but did very little. However, it has lots of effective action, and I liked Mad Mikkelsen's character's motivation and how it settles one of the grand old arguments over the Death Star (How did they miss that weakness?).

I didn't like The Force Awakens, for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed to death elsewhere. I bring it up only because I think there's an interesting contrast between our tough female protagonists. Jin is capable and drives the plot, where Rey is a Mary Sue who spends most of the film running from whatever drives the current action scene. Jin is a much more interesting protagonist to me than Rey's Mary Sue. I also felt the pacing in The Force Awakens was relentless to the point of being exhausting, and was quite happy not to feel the same with Rogue One.

Kirby

Yeah that makes more sense. Still.....a bothan or two wouldn't have been out of place here....:D

Falthyron

IGN have provided a pretty good collage of footage and dialogue that was present in the trailers, but didn't make it into the final film. There is a lot... Just imagine what this film was before the extensive re-shoots.

http://ie.ign.com/videos/2016/12/20/all-the-footage-from-the-rogue-one-trailers-cut-from-the-film

david75

'They're not going to let us do that': Gareth Edwards talks Rogue One's original ending and reshoots

https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Ffilms%2F2016%2F12%2F20%2Fnot-going-let-us-do-gareth-edwards-talks-rogue-ones-ending-reshoot%2Famp%2F#a-b47764e0-ca4c-47d2-8803-74511add6699

Kirby

I don't know why you would cut that TIE fighter shot. It's visually quite impressive so unless the scene dragged on for 4 minutes or something, it doesn't make sense to cut it.

david75

Kirby wrote: »

I don't know why you would cut that TIE fighter shot. It's visually quite impressive so unless the scene dragged on for 4 minutes or something, it doesn't make sense to cut it.

Read the above link. It was only a temp graphics shot. Never destined for the final cut.

eviltimeban

"There was a bit of a process to refining the third act in terms of specific shots and moments, and certain things just fell away," Edwards said. "What happened was marketing loved those shots and said, 'Oh, we've got to use that.' And you say, 'Well, it's not in the movie,' and they said 'It's okay. It's what marketing does, we just use the best of whatever you've done.'"

*bangs fist * Marketing!!

Kirby

david75 wrote: »

Read the above link. It was only a temp graphics shot. Never destined for the final cut.

I read the above link and nowhere does it actually say that so you are quite wrong there.

"Temp" graphics shots don't look like that, with that level of polish and visual fidelity. Marketing loved it and ran with it, and why wouldn't they? It's striking.

david75

Kirby wrote: »

I read the above link and nowhere does it actually say that so you are quite wrong there.

"Temp" graphics shots don't look like that, with that level of polish and visual fidelity. Marketing loved it and ran with it, and why wouldn't they? It's striking.

He says it in the podcast on empire that it was never destined for the film.
Nothing like being right on the internet. Good luck with that.

Osmosis Jones

"Trailers nowadays give away too much of the movie"

"Where's all the stuff we saw in the trailers?"

Tony EH

So, I just saw the best Star Wars film in 36 years.

If I had to absolutely pick some flaws, it was be the music lacking a complete John Williams feel, the kinda goofy "I am one with the force scene" where IP Man bites the dust and I think they were a bit over zealous with the Tarkin/Peter Cushing CGI to the point where the cracks started to show in an otherwise excellent effort and they shouldn't have had a close up of fake Leia at the end. Those CGI characters should have been mainly in shadow or long shots to complete the - rather laudible, I have to admit - illusion.

All in all though, this is the direction that the franchise should be going in. Something less goofy (I'm looking at you Finn), with a tension that creates drama and a few genuinely moving moments thrown in.

I couldn't believe that Disney would have the balls to kill everyone at the end. Great stuff, although I will admit to being a little sad that we won't get to see further adventures of Jyn and Cassian .

Fcuking brilliant.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

When did reshoot become a panic term?

When "reshoots" are listed to "lighten the tone", you have a problem. Because most of the time, that means stupid humour that fcuks up the tension and drama originally envisaged.

Luckilly, this was restricted to K2SO and very flat humour that worked for the most part.

Kirby

david75 wrote: »

Nothing like being right on the internet.

Well it's better than being wrong on the internet, wouldn't you agree?

Tony EH

Kirby wrote: »

Maybe I'm being a bit dense here....but was there even a nod to "many bothans dying"? I was sure there would be a fan service nod or even a joke about this throwawy line in the original but I couldnt find one. Did I miss it? Or was that Bothan line in Jedi? My memory is not what it was.

It's gas how many people keep making this connection. Had the same comment in the pub last night after the film.

The Bothan spies discovered the whereabouts of the second Death Star and that both the Emperor and Vader were going to be on it at a specific time.

Tony EH

robinph wrote: »

Stupid flying frog with a lightsaber sequence was bad alright. :eek:

Bang on.

Yoda's use of the force should have been limited to his ability to manipulate objects and atmosphere around him in a powerful way.

When he whips out a tiny lightsabre and starts lepping around, I nearly shit myself laughing.

Terrible, terrible idea.

Tony EH

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Disney not being able to resist these fan **** for sake of story/better movie isn't a good sign going forward.

TBH, I thought there was less fan **** in this than 'The Force Awakens'.

'Rogue One' is it's own film, unlike 'The Force Awakens' and especially the prequels which include so much fan **** that it become one of the many, many destructive factors that those films suffer from.

Tony EH

doubledown wrote: »

Red Letter Media absolutely spot-on, as usual.

https://youtu.be/Kc2kFk5M9x4

Goodshape wrote: »

That's very good.

Nah. I couldn't disagree with them more. I normally agree with those lads, but I have to part company with them on this one. They're all over the place in their review of this.

Mike says at one point that "We need a backstory that Rey had".

Rey had fcuk all backstory.

And "Plus he (Cassian Andor) murdered people".

Of course he bleedin murders people. It's a war. :pac:

Darth Vader was "weird"...what? I thought Vader was used well in this picture.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

When "reshoots" are listed to "lighten the tone", you have a problem. Because most of the time, that means stupid humour that fcuks up the tension and drama originally envisaged.

Luckilly, this was restricted to K2SO and very flat humour that worked for the most part.

The entire cast dying is lightening the tone?

What sorta films do you be watching.

david75

Kirby wrote: »

Well it's better than being wrong on the internet, wouldn't you agree?

You'd know.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

The entire cast dying is lightening the tone?

What sorta films do you be watching.

I think the cast dying was always there in some form. But, afair, there were reshoots during the year to, quote, "lighten the tone". I reckon that meant giving K2SO some funny, dry, lines.

The sorta films I watch? You wouldn't want to know Dave! :pac:

johnny_ultimate

Mod note: Think this has been informally in place for a while, but consider this a formal note that the thread is SPOILER TOWN FROM HERE ON OUT

david75

The score didn't really work did it? The tiny occasional flourishes of familiar Star Wars themes only pointed out how pedestrian the rest of it was. He did do a great job for only four weeks and I hope he comes back and given another shot at it in another standalone but it should either be full tilt Star Wars music or totally his own thing.

The little bits here and there were counter productive to it I reckon.

strandroad

I liked it, it was more illustrative than Williams-rousing which would be jarring. Disney put it up on YouTube now.

Conall Cernach

I wasn't a big fan of the score but then I really only noticed it when it was similar to Williams's main theme and then the differences were a bit jarring.

I really enjoyed the film and apart from the Doctor and Buttface I didn't mind the references to the other movies. Blue milk? Well it could be a staple of the diet galaxy wide. Tarkin? He's one of the top military men in the Empire of course he's going to be in on the commissioning of the Death Star especially when we know he gets to run it in the next movie. Red and Gold leader? Well if you're going to have a space battle you're going to need your squadron leaders. R2 and 3PO? It's already established that they are owned by Captain Antilles so why not have them at the rebel base?

There were a couple of clunky lines of dialogue. The "choke on your aspirations" one and the few references to hope. That was laying it on with a trowel. It was still light years ahead of the prequels and at this stage I think it is better than The Force Awakens which I think suffered from terrible pacing problems (it all seems to take place "live" as it is happening on screen).

eeguy

david75 wrote: »

The score didn't really work did it?
The little bits here and there were counter productive to it I reckon.

There was a few times where it built up then fell on its face, and a few times when I thought "it would be great if they put some of the original score in here"

derm0j073

david75 wrote: »

The score didn't really work did it? The tiny occasional flourishes of familiar Star Wars themes only pointed out how pedestrian the rest of it was. He did do a great job for only four weeks and I hope he comes back and given another shot at it in another standalone but it should either be full tilt Star Wars music or totally his own thing.

The little bits here and there were counter productive to it I reckon.

I thought the score was hit and miss but if the four weeks thing is true he did an amazing job. It would make you wonder though , it sounds like the producers/director/Disney between the re-shoots and the score weren't all on the same page . It's a miracle the movie wasn't a complete mess and the score didn't sound like this...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53DQgbj2mIc

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

The score didn't really work did it? The tiny occasional flourishes of familiar Star Wars themes only pointed out how pedestrian the rest of it was. He did do a great job for only four weeks and I hope he comes back and given another shot at it in another standalone but it should either be full tilt Star Wars music or totally his own thing.

The little bits here and there were counter productive to it I reckon.

Yeh, I agree mostly. It's a servicable score, but it really makes you miss the expertise of John Williams and the familair stings.

Wonder why he passed on this one, or was passed over?

There was one standout part, where the two Star Destroyers are crashing into the shield ring. It's very reverential. like it's reminding you that thousands of people are dying here.