Star Wars: Rogue One *spoilers from post 1195*

Little CuChulainn

That Vader scene as he chased the guy with the plans. The brutality of it. Really showed why he was so feared.

Radiosonde

david75 wrote: »

People complaining that they can't suspend disbelief for a CGI human character while watching a film about spaceships and Death Stars and magic space wizards with laser swords


Haha

Suspension of disbelief in this case relates to the form the story is presented in, not its specific contents. It's the difference between a movie still of a UFO apparently suspended in midair over New York, and one in which the city is clearly a painted backdrop and the strings holding the UFO up are visible. The question is not could UFOs plausibly appear in the real world, but rather does this movie do a convincing enough job of portraying them that I am able to set the fantastical elements to one side and engage with the story?

From wiki:

The term suspension of disbelief or willing suspension of disbelief has been defined as a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment. The term was coined in 1817 by the poet and aesthetic philosopher Samuel Taylor Coleridge, who suggested that if a writer could infuse a "human interest and a semblance of truth" into a fantastic tale, the reader would suspend judgement concerning the implausibility of the narrative.

Death Stars, laser swords and space wizards are all portrayed convincingly in Star Wars. But CGI Tarkin lacks the "semblance of truth", as he's surrounded by flesh and blood actors and thus looks unrealistic in comparison. In a movie with nothing but CGI he'd look fine and wouldn't shatter the viewer's willing suspension of disbelief.

PhiloCypher

Deleted User wrote: »

robinph wrote: »

No you are not supposed to ignore that you noticed.

But you are supposed to go into the movie and ignore the things that you know from the real world about which actors are alive and dead or who plays which part or that there are not really any jedis or sith or big slugs with mind reading tentacles. Going into the movie knowing that an actor died years ago so therefore cannot be playing that part takes you out of the movie world, so have your memory chip wiped before going in and just enjoy and appreciate the movie for what it is and not get wound up about Carrie Fisher not actually being 19 anymore etc.

PhiloCypher wrote: »

I can absolutely see the logic in their choice . Throwing prosthetics on an already gaunt actor like Wayne Pygram in episode 3 was all well and good as that was set over 20 years before A New Hope and any difference could be explained away by the passing of years . Rogue one is set hours or at most days before A New Hope and in this binge culture are expected to be watched together. One can only assume they did make up tests and came to the conclusion that the difference between a Cgi Tarkin and the Tarkin we see in ANH would be less jarring to audiences then someone in prosthetics. Personally while I was obviously aware I was looking at a cgi character it didn't coming anywhere close to ruining the film for me .

I'm well aware of the concept of suspending my disbelief. This simply broke that. The interactions between Tarkin and Krennic didn't feel real to me. To say it ruined that film for me is an enormous exaggeration. We're probably gonna have to agree to disagree about the Tarkin thing to avoid going in circles. I think they should have just recast someone who looked similar. The fact that the two films are hours apart is irrelevant to me. If people are going to watch them back-to-back, its going to be massively jarring regardless. Two films made decades apart with completely different tone aren't going to intertwine seamlessly.

It was one of many missteps which lead to a largely forgettable experience. I was genuinely bored for the first 3/4 of the film. The only new character's name I could remember walking out was the comedy bot K2SO. Is that my fault or the creators of the film?

Well it's fair to say everyone has their Rubicon when it comes to suspension of disbelief and this one crossed yours . As to whose fault it is you can only remember K2SO name , I'd argue it's your own . I'm absolutely terrible with the names but I still remembered Jyn, Cassian, Bodhi and K2S0, the only two I had trouble with were Chirrut(blind guy)and Baze(heavy gun guy).

Theboinkmaster

david75 wrote: »

Following that logic Star Wars would never exist.

that makes absolutely no sense, what do you mean

how are you defending sh!t CGI

Interesting to note that I didn't realise that two of the fighter pilots were CGI too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-KJGLRmt0w

TerrorFirmer

I'm surprised that it irks people so greatly - I personally thought it was very obvious that it was CGI, but I think once you're aware of that fact, you're instantly looking for signs of life - be it in the eyes, the facial contortion, the movement of the mouth with dialogue, etc. I know I was, and I ultimately felt it was quite unnatural albiet very good for CGI. However, it didn't trouble me in the overal scheme of things and I very much appreciated the effort put in to seamlessly link Rogue One with ANH. For what it's worth, I thought the CGI Leia was far more glaringly obvious...possibly due to the stark contrast in illumination/lighting in both scenes.

Funny enough I saw it with a few people and only one noticed anything amiss with Tarkin (also a fan, but didn't know Tarkin would be in the movie).

Theboinkmaster

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I'm surprised that it irks people so greatly - I personally thought it was very obvious that it was CGI, but I think once you're aware of that fact, you're instantly looking for signs of life - be it in the eyes, the facial contortion, the movement of the mouth with dialogue, etc. I know I was, and I ultimately felt it was quite unnatural albiet very good for CGI. However, it didn't trouble me in the overal scheme of things and I very much appreciated the effort put in to seamlessly link Rogue One with ANH. For what it's worth, I thought the CGI Leia was far more glaringly obvious...possibly due to the stark contrast in illumination/lighting in both scenes.

Funny enough I saw it with a few people and only one noticed anything amiss with Tarkin (also a fan, but didn't know Tarkin would be in the movie).

I didn't notice Tarkin was CGI so fair play to them. However like you said Leia was much more obvious due to lighting and close-up.

Not Propaganda

This will be a bit of a monster post so apologies in advance.

I saw it again last night and I think it's up there as my 3rd favourite behind Empire and A New Hope. TFA was a great reboot and reintroduction to what Star Wars should feel like, but over the past year and numerous watches it's gone down in my estimation. Maybe the same will happen with Rogue One, who knows

The major complaints I have are with the editing/pacing, the delivery of the plot at times (there was clunky exposition to explain what was happening that could have been handled better I think), Saw Gerrera and specifically that mind reading tentacled thing. What a pointless bit of the film. In terms of delivery of the plot, specifically I mean:

- The decision to go to Jedha/Jyn's meeting with the Rebels
- Galen's message - I liked the idea of a rebel booby trapping the Death Star but the whole message really felt like so much exposition
- The whole getting a signal out to the rebels in space/"MASTER SWITCH" bit. I liked that all the groups had specific goals but again, the delivery was very clunky

However I loved so much about this film that I really am willing to let all of this go

First off - Jedha. How brilliant to see a Jedi Temple, the remnants of this religion, kyber crystals - all of this lore that has been built up over 40 years of EU/fanfic/whatever, some of it being confirmed! I also loved that the Force has followers - not just Jedi or Sith, but people who believe in it's power and so are somewhat attuned to it. Or maybe they're not, maybe Chirrut was just like Daredevil and his other senses were incredible, but anyway, I just loved the acknowledgement of something bigger, something other than Jedi/Sith.

I also really liked the idea of extremist rebels, there were overtones of ISIS second time round I felt, covered faces and throwing themselves into the fight with no regard for their own lives, which was a little uncomfortable on second viewing but I think the film was trying to show us the Rebels were no angels. And then, the destruction of the city was some of the most incredible footage I've experienced in cinema. They captured the absolute terror of the Death Star, something we've never really experienced before. From that, everything feels high stakes.

Galen's death was well handled ALTHOUGH another minor complaint is I feel the confrontation between Cassian and Jyn could have had more in it. As it was, it was well done but I still feel we didn't get quite enough reason for Cassian not to have pulled the trigger. It just seems like he kind of likes Jyn and has changed his mind. On second viewing I think they were going for the fact Galen tries to save the engineers as a moment that Cassian pauses, but again with the editing I'm not really sure this is clear. Regardless, his reaction to Jyn's accusation is great and I think he played the on-edge rebel really well. Also "following orders even though you know they're wrong? May as well be a Stormtrooper" is a fantastic line

The meeting where they inevitably ignore Jyn was probably the most bored I was in the film, waiting for them to get over this pointless part for the good stuff. The group deciding to go off on their own felt like it fit with the film and the makeshift make-it-up-as-we-go nature of the film (something I'll touch on later) and this exchange kind of broke my heart second time round:
"I'm not used to people sticking around when things go bad"
"Welcome home"

That final battle was wow I don't care what anyone says. A little thing I loved that I didn't catch first time was giving unnamed Rebels a little bit of the limelight. Small example - when Bodhi is stuck in the crossfire and he needs to get back to the ship to plug in for the transmission. He just gets up and goes and one of the Rebels spots him, instantly gets up to provide cover for him and takes a blaster to the chest. It's over in less than 5 seconds maybe, but you had seen this Rebel earlier in the ship and I think it was their way of going - hey, look at this unnamed hero. This happened a few times.

Overall, I think the film wanted to show that there were heroes that we'll never know much about before we met the heroes we all love. Not only that, these heroes straddled the line, with murky morals all in the name of the cause. Just imagine the bravery it takes to carry on the mission when they realise they're trapped on the planet. I think they did a great job in showing this and even though they got heroic deaths in a cheesy cliched kind of way, in terms of the universe, nobody was witness to this. All anybody knows is that Rogue One went down there and got the plans out - nobody knows what K2 did, what Chirrut or Bodhi did, how Baze died (which wasn't at all heroic it was just sad), how Jyn & Cassian completed the mission and died together on a beach. Like does anybody who survives actually know Bodhi's name? Nobody knows that in the Rebellion, because you can't stop and think too much of who has gone before, the urgency is there to go on to the next mission immediately and all I wanted to do was watch A New Hope straight away. In that way i thought it captured everything it was trying to do brilliantly, but it still kept it Star Wars and not overly dark (which I'm assuming what the reshoots were about).

Final point - Vader at the end was just so unbelievably menacing it's genuinely thrilling to watch. Which is probably the wrong response!

Not Propaganda

Wait, final final point

The funniest moment in movie history. After Jyn gives her big rousing speech and all the Rebel council are rabbling on and someone offscreen just shouts "WHAT IS SHE PROPOSING" ahahaha

I mean talk about breaking suspension of disbelief with Tarkin and Leia, that really took me out of the scene, it sounded like someone in the cinema shouting it ffs

orubiru

david75 wrote: »

People complaining that they can't suspend disbelief for a CGI human character while watching a film about spaceships and Death Stars and magic space wizards with laser swords


Haha

I don't think you realise that you're the one being foolish here.

Let's take Empire Strikes Back Special Edition as an example. Lucas is making all these changes for the 2005 blue ray release.

So Leia and Han arrive at the City of Bespin and Lando strolls out to meet them. This is a new CGI version of Lando from a distance and he does and exaggerated swagger over to them and says "whatsaaaaaaaaaaap". Then he's like laughing like a buffon and farting and making dick jokes.

Now, some people in the audience might find their sense of disbelief cannot possibly be suspended at this point and they are thinking "what the F is going on here"?

However, by your logic these people are dumb because we are "watching a film about spaceships and Death Stars and magic space wizards with laser swords" so anything goes and nothing can be criticised as unbelievable or unconvincing?

The CGI Tarkin is awkward because it is not consistent with the rest of the movie and so it stands out. They might as well have a massive neon sign saying "look at this CGI human character here next to all the regular human characters!".

Is it just me or are people having an "in denial" reaction to this movie?

I thought it was incredibly boring for the first 90 minutes or so. None of the characters are in anyway compelling BUT they did have x wings and tie fighters and Darth Vader took out his lightsaber so it was amazing?

Not Propaganda

Not Propaganda wrote: »

Wait, final final point

The funniest moment in movie history. After Jyn gives her big rousing speech and all the Rebel council are rabbling on and someone offscreen just shouts "WHAT IS SHE PROPOSING" ahahaha

I mean talk about breaking suspension of disbelief with Tarkin and Leia, that really took me out of the scene, it sounded like someone in the cinema shouting it ffs

I instantly thought of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEvUt2kUg0c

Not Propaganda

Deleted User wrote: »

I instantly thought of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEvUt2kUg0c

Haha yes! Exactly!

Zubeneschamali

I thought the text identifying planets was out of place in a SW movie and also annoying, since it turned out that we did not need to remember the name of that bleak farm moon, or the city in the asteroids, or the planet Jyn is broken out of jail, or anywhere else, really, to follow what was happening.

Not Propaganda

orubiru wrote: »

Is it just me or are people having an "in denial" reaction to this movie?

I thought it was incredibly boring for the first 90 minutes or so. None of the characters are in anyway compelling BUT they did have x wings and tie fighters and Darth Vader took out his lightsaber so it was amazing?

There could definitely be some denial going on with me so I'm a little more reserved on my praise for the film than I was this time last year with TFA (which as I mentioned has gone down in my estimation as the year has gone on).

I think I just really enjoyed the good aspects of the film, and while I don't think any character really stands out I think it fits in with the whole point of the film.

But I wouldn't be too certain on whether that will stand the test of time, I may end up hating it apart from the aesthetics of the ending in future, who knows

Penn

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I thought the text identifying planets was out of place in a SW movie and also annoying, since it turned out that we did not need to remember the name of that bleak farm moon, or the city in the asteroids, or the planet Jyn is broken out of jail, or anywhere else, really, to follow what was happening.

I liked it. It helped distinguish it more from the other SW movies. No opening crawl. None of the usual scene transitions if I remember correctly.

I like how it was all familiar yet different.

orubiru

Not Propaganda wrote: »

There could definitely be some denial going on with me so I'm a little more reserved on my praise for the film than I was this time last year with TFA (which as I mentioned has gone down in my estimation as the year has gone on).

I think I just really enjoyed the good aspects of the film, and while I don't think any character really stands out I think it fits in with the whole point of the film.

But I wouldn't be too certain on whether that will stand the test of time, I may end up hating it apart from the aesthetics of the ending in future, who knows

Yeah, I feel like I am experiencing the reverse of what I felt way back with Episode One. Back then I really knew it was rubbish but I kept on defending it and trying to convince myself that it was really quite good actually. I was much younger then.

Now it feel like I want to like this one but the first hour or so it just terribly terribly boring. Not unwatchable or annoying but just "meh". So I am seeing all these people raving about how great it is and I am wondering if they are saying the last 10 minutes was great or the entire movie was great. Instead of trying to convince others that they just don't get it, like I would do with Episode One, I am trying to convince myself that maybe I am just not getting it and Rogue One really is a great film.

I love Star Wars and I will always be rooting for them to bring out an amazing movie but this just feels like such a slog leading up to 30 minutes of good stuff and then end credits.

Arne_Saknussem

Penn wrote: »

I liked it. It helped distinguish it more from the other SW movies. No opening crawl. None of the usual scene transitions if I remember correctly.

I like how it was all familiar yet different.

Agreed. I find the hysterical hypercritical fan modern nerd culture has produced baffling and wonder how they enjoy any film if i'm honest.

BMMachine

here, on the CGI on the faces:

It shouldnt be there at all as those two characters (Leia and Tarkin) don't need to be in the film.
If it was a better film that didn't need f**king member berries for cheap pops and instead actually tried to be good instead of giving fans erections over nothing then it wouldn't be an issue. But hey, I'm looking for quality and something good to watch, which might not fall into line with someone who just wants to fanboy ****.

but hey, remember guys & gals - sh*t is now average. average is now good. good is now great. and great is now EPIC.
another film to add to the list of distorted nonsense opinions of people trying to protect and elevate their taste and values. don't let reality in guys, stay in the safe space with Steven Segal.

Arne_Saknussem

BMMachine wrote: »

here, on the CGI on the faces:

It shouldnt be there at all as those two characters (Leia and Tarkin) don't need to be in the film.
If it was a better film that didn't need f**king member berries for cheap pops and instead actually tried to be good instead of giving fans erections over nothing then it wouldn't be an issue. But hey, I'm looking for quality and something good to watch, which might not fall into line with someone who just wants to fanboy ****.

but hey, remember guys & gals - sh*t is now average. average is now good. good is now great. and great is now EPIC.
another film to add to the list of distorted nonsense opinions of people trying to protect and elevate their taste and values. don't let reality in guys, stay in the safe space with Steven Segal.

What a bizarre little rant.

BMMachine

BMMachine wrote: »

here, on the CGI on the faces:

It shouldnt be there at all as those two characters (Leia and Tarkin) don't need to be in the film.
If it was a better film that didn't need f**king member berries for cheap pops and instead actually tried to be good instead of giving fans erections over nothing then it wouldn't be an issue. But hey, I'm looking for quality and something good to watch, which might not fall into line with someone who just wants to fanboy ****.

but hey, remember guys & gals - sh*t is now average. average is now good. good is now great. and great is now EPIC.
another film to add to the list of distorted nonsense opinions of people trying to protect and elevate their taste and values. don't let reality in guys, stay in the safe space with Steven Segal.

2/10

heebusjeebus

Do you get all your news from South Park?

BMMachine

awwww sorry guys.
omg did you see the bit with Darth Vader?! awww it was so good. the way he did that force lift and slash thing omg wow.
and I LOVED the back story of Jinn. It was deep and complex and I could totally see her motivation which folded so brilliantly into the love story with the lead guy.

And what a great use of Forrest Whittaker. Such a good character with such an important role to play.
Same with Riz Ahmed. And yeah Mads Mikkelson was used brilliantly too. such depth and intrigue and not at all a bloated mess of a film with sh*t just randomly shoved in.

I also made 2 South Park references, thats about 200 times less references this film made to the past films in its canon. But hey, in the cinema I went to you won a prize if you got them all. The guy that won edged it as he noticed the blue milk in the jugg that was also in episode 4. GENIUS.


but sarcasm aside, I suppose Im looking for too much. I should lower my standards as I hate making people feel uncomfortable at suggesting the possibility that they might not actually have good taste and instead are just looking to protect themselves and what they think. I should just plug in with you guys and get FORCE fed (get it? THATS A REFERENCE TO THE FORCE!!!!) whatever crap is thrown together on a screen and shut my mouth

DvB

Watched it last night, enjoyed it, decent addition to the SW collection & easily better than the prequels. Liked the inclusion of Tarkin to be fair & even Leia at the end... didn't have a problem with either & thought it was an entertaining romp, which at the end of the day is what these things are meant to be IMO.

Tell you what though, Stormtroopers are soooo easy to kill.

david75

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

that makes absolutely no sense, what do you mean

how are you defending sh!t CGI

It makes total sense if you know anything about Star wars and how it came about. Those kinds of movies weren't made. The idea was broadly scoffed at. Scripts weren't written that way. And models and effects and film making definitely wasn't done that way.

Ie 'properly'.


Lucasfilm have always been at the front breaking new ground. Always. And they're still doing it. Nit picking and whinging about it cos you didn't like it cos it wasn't 'done properly' and it 'shouldn't be done if it can't be done properly' gets nothing done and says they may as all not try.

Defeatist if not cynical.

Seanachai

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I didn't notice Tarkin was CGI so fair play to them. However like you said Leia was much more obvious due to lighting and close-up.

I can't believe they made the decision to have CGI human characters, I'm sure it is the best tech available but it looked dreadful. Tarkin actually reminded me of Dobby the house elf from Harry Potter :P.

BMMachine

david75 wrote: »

It makes total sense if you know anything about Star wars and how it came about. Those kinds of movies weren't made. The idea was broadly scoffed at. Scripts weren't written that way. And models and effects and film making definitely wasn't done that way.

Ie 'properly'.


Lucasfilm have always been at the front breaking new ground. Always. And they're still doing it. Nit picking and whinging about it cos you didn't like it cos it wasn't 'done properly' and it 'shouldn't be done if it can't be done properly' gets nothing done and says they may as all not try.

Defeatist if not cynical.

oh well then now I suppose it looked good. Here can you do a tour of cinemas and explain this to people before the movie starts? they might not laugh at it then and realise how disrespectful they are being to lucasarts, who are really really great.

david75

orubiru wrote: »

I don't think you realise that you're the one being foolish here.

Let's take Empire Strikes Back Special Edition as an example. Lucas is making all these changes for the 2005 blue ray release.

So Leia and Han arrive at the City of Bespin and Lando strolls out to meet them. This is a new CGI version of Lando from a distance and he does and exaggerated swagger over to them and says "whatsaaaaaaaaaaap". Then he's like laughing like a buffon and farting and making dick jokes.

Now, some people in the audience might find their sense of disbelief cannot possibly be suspended at this point and they are thinking "what the F is going on here"?

However, by your logic these people are dumb because we are "watching a film about spaceships and Death Stars and magic space wizards with laser swords" so anything goes and nothing can be criticised as unbelievable or unconvincing?

The CGI Tarkin is awkward because it is not consistent with the rest of the movie and so it stands out. They might as well have a massive neon sign saying "look at this CGI human character here next to all the regular human characters!".

Is it just me or are people having an "in denial" reaction to this movie?

I thought it was incredibly boring for the first 90 minutes or so. None of the characters are in anyway compelling BUT they did have x wings and tie fighters and Darth Vader took out his lightsaber so it was amazing?

I was just laughing at people ranting sort of endlessly about CGI that doesn't meet their standard. The film has bigger problems than that yet that's what people are latching onto? And using South Park in some cases to make their case?

Bless us and save us

Theboinkmaster

david75 wrote: »

It makes total sense if you know anything about Star wars and how it came about. Those kinds of movies weren't made. The idea was broadly scoffed at. Scripts weren't written that way. And models and effects and film making definitely wasn't done that way.

Ie 'properly'.


Lucasfilm have always been at the front breaking new ground. Always. And they're still doing it. Nit picking and whinging about it cos you didn't like it cos it wasn't 'done properly' and it 'shouldn't be done if it can't be done properly' gets nothing done and says they may as all not try.

Defeatist if not cynical.

I know everything about star wars and how it came about, how is that even relevant to dodgy CGI?!

You mean the effects and models weren't done properly in the original trilogy?! what are you talking about - most of the effects in those films were so ground breaking that when you watch them now on blu ray they look like they were made in 2016, not nearly 40 years ago.

Lucasfilm at the front breaking new ground - yes agreed, but that doesn't really argue against my point does it?

The CGI Leia looked sh!t and im sure ILM did their best with it as it was someone else's decision to include it in the film.

The technology isn't ready yet and it was executed extremely poorly. you are just forgiving it with fanboy-tinted glasses. You haven't even successfully argued your point, just making vague irrelevant statements

orubiru

BMMachine wrote: »

awwww sorry guys.
omg did you see the bit with Darth Vader?! awww it was so good. the way he did that force lift and slash thing omg wow.
and I LOVED the back story of Jinn. It was deep and complex and I could totally see her motivation which folded so brilliantly into the love story with the lead guy.

Most people are raving about Darth Vader and Leia being in the movie even though neither of them actually interact with the main characters.

Basically Jyn and her team get kicked out of the movie for 5 minutes of Darth Vader doing action stuff and a 10 second shot of CGI Princess Leia and it's those 5 minutes that everyone is so excited about.

Hey, what was your favourite part of the movie?
Well, I loved the bit where they showed scenes with 2 characters that were totally unrelated to the previous 2 hours of story for the last 5 minutes.

Kinda feels like if you watched the LOTR trilogy and the only bit that you really liked was the eagles. Like, I don't remember the names of any of the characters or anything about their personality but that bit when the eagles showed up? Oh that was EPIC. Can't wait to tweet about it!

Theboinkmaster

david75 wrote: »

The film has bigger problems than that yet that's what people are latching onto?

Yes of course - the character development, the music etc. however none of that is as jarring or unnecessary as the Leia CGI sh!t at the end.

The music is sh!t because they changed composer and had little time to do it, fair enough.

Character development due to Disney messing with Edwards vision and changing the story drastically, to protect their investment and play it safe - fair enough I can understand that.

I'm so exercised at the Leia CGI sh!t because there's no reason for it and could be fixed so simply with some simple editing (remove it), so I'm far less forgiving of such as egregious error.

I can't believe whomever had final cut on the film (Kathleen kennedy?) thought "yeah that looks good"