Star Wars: Rogue One *spoilers from post 1195*

PhiloCypher

Not Propaganda wrote: »

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/12/21/rogue-one-film-crit-hulk-the-slippery-sloping-story-of-rogue-one

Really interesting review because it's the first one I've seen that puts the first part of the story above the final act. And reading it, it all makes sense to me. I still really enjoyed the movie but a review like this is why I'd hesitate to say it's a classic or anything, I think after a while and another viewing a few months down the road I'll come at it with a different view maybe

The big thing I get from that review is "missed opportunities" - which I totally get. I can see all the missed opportunities in Rogue One and that is frustrating, but I still liked what we ended up with

The first commenter of that article, a chap named YayMayorBee nailed why Hulk was wrong in some but not all of his criticisms .

Other than putting him and his daughter together, his death scene has no other reason to exist (except to serve more murky conflict between Jyn and Cassian a scene later).
No. This scene is the crux of Jyn's and Cassian's changes of heart, the changes that make them the kind of people who will run off together to steal the plans in the third act. Jyn's mission can't be about just saving her father. It has to be more than that. So he has to go and she has to take up his life's work and ensure that his sabotage means something. Cassian, meanwhile, has to be something other than a killer who takes orders. He has to become a freer thinker. So he has to not take the shot, and he also has to see that his exercise of discretion doesn't matter because the Rebel leadership will do what they want. Also, there's nothing "murky" about Jyn being outraged that Cassian would follow orders and kill her father, and nothing "murky" about Cassian being upset at a Johnny-come-lately climbing up on the cross and pretending to be the only person who has lost things to the Empire. I thought this second act was perfectly clear.

A little over an hour ago, she sent them on a super secret mission to infiltrate and find out more/how to stop this weapon. Now, she's basically shrugging.
Because an intelligence gathering exercise isn't the same as committing the entirety of the rebel forces to a longshot military assault. Because politics are now in play and, as we're both shown and told, not everyone is on the same page. I thought this was also really clear.

There are no dramatic pleas between characters built on trust...
Because it's not a team dynamic built on trust. It's built on the burning need to do something that matters, with whatever allies you can find.

THAT'S NOT HOW HEIST STRUCTURE WORKS
Good thing they weren't making a heist movie, then. It's about a desperate, blind leap of faith, and it actually working out (I'm with the force; the force is with me). It's also dramatic irony--our heroes both succeed and die because the cavalry shows up when it does. The arrival of the rebel fleet seals Rogue One on the planet (Plan A for getting the plans out) and jams communications (Plan . Ironically, their crazy mission has given birth to the Rebel Alliance as we know it from STAR WARS '77, but also doomed them.

Regarding Vader--this is the thematic button on the movie. The team's sacrifice has to be carried over to other people. Vader mowing down randos as they pass off the plans is a dramatization of the team's sacrifice inspiring others and building the alliance. It's what the story is about. They use Vader because they need the personification of all the terror and power of the Empire for that scene.

Anyone watching this film without knowledge of the next would be confused about what is even happening.
The movie's not for them. Just as any movie about WW2 doesn't stop to explain who Hitler is.

Frankly, I think the movie works precisely because it zagged every time your screenwriter impulse said it should zig.

orubiru

Not Propaganda wrote: »

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/12/21/rogue-one-film-crit-hulk-the-slippery-sloping-story-of-rogue-one

Really interesting review because it's the first one I've seen that puts the first part of the story above the final act. And reading it, it all makes sense to me. I still really enjoyed the movie but a review like this is why I'd hesitate to say it's a classic or anything, I think after a while and another viewing a few months down the road I'll come at it with a different view maybe

The big thing I get from that review is "missed opportunities" - which I totally get. I can see all the missed opportunities in Rogue One and that is frustrating, but I still liked what we ended up with

"I liked that there wasn't really a single white dude." I wonder if he said this just to get a rise out of people or if he is genuinely coming out of the movie thinking that. Am I taking it out of context or something? very weird?

I am also feeling like "missed opportunities" could apply to every Star Wars movie after Return of the Jedi. To be honest it could probably apply to almost all of the endless stream of action-adventure adaptations, reboots, remakes, prequels and sequels.

Suicide Squad, Batman v Superman, Prometheus, Assassins Creed etc etc all had massive potential to be top drawer movies but somehow they took that potential and threw it away.

Everytime a superhero movie comes out The Dark Knight is referenced. Everytime a Star Wars movie comes out Empire Strikes Back is mentioned. So I think it's fair to assume that what audiences are waiting for is that next "top tier" action movie.

Mad Max : Fury Road and John Wick show that there are good action films out there just waiting to be made. Combine memorable characters and a great movie with a massive franchise name and you've got the next truly great one on your hands.

I guess that audiences are also willing to tolerate the "just OK" or acceptable movies while we wait.

It really felt like Rogue One was going to be "the one" and I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be. It was free of the shackles of the prequels, the original trilogy and the new sequels. It could be a self contained story since we all pretty much knew what would happen at the end.

It ended up being just ok and a bit boring.

When can we all start getting excited that Episode VIII is going to be as good as, if not better than, Empire Strikes Back?

david75

orubiru wrote: »

"I liked that there wasn't really a single white dude." I wonder if he said this just to get a rise out of people or if he is genuinely coming out of the movie thinking that. Am I taking it out of context or something? very weird?

I am also feeling like "missed opportunities" could apply to every Star Wars movie after Return of the Jedi. To be honest it could probably apply to almost all of the endless stream of action-adventure adaptations, reboots, remakes, prequels and sequels.

Suicide Squad, Batman v Superman, Prometheus, Assassins Creed etc etc all had massive potential to be top drawer movies but somehow they took that potential and threw it away.

Everytime a superhero movie comes out The Dark Knight is referenced. Everytime a Star Wars movie comes out Empire Strikes Back is mentioned. So I think it's fair to assume that what audiences are waiting for is that next "top tier" action movie.

Mad Max : Fury Road and John Wick show that there are good action films out there just waiting to be made. Combine memorable characters and a great movie with a massive franchise name and you've got the next truly great one on your hands.

I guess that audiences are also willing to tolerate the "just OK" or acceptable movies while we wait.

It really felt like Rogue One was going to be "the one" and I can't think of any reason why it couldn't be. It was free of the shackles of the prequels, the original trilogy and the new sequels. It could be a self contained story since we all pretty much knew what would happen at the end.

It ended up being just ok and a bit boring.

When can we all start getting excited that Episode VIII is going to be as good as, if not better than, Empire Strikes Back?

I'm betting the house on the fact that 8 is gonna be a more severe lurch than we're ready for. If it's good or bad? Time will tell. 9 will be the righting of the ship. Hopefully more than satisfying. But if empire is going to be the unattainable standard that all star Wars films are measured against or held to, a severe lurch off that scale is welcome.

mikhail

orubiru wrote: »

When can we all start getting excited that Episode VIII is going to be as good as, if not better than, Empire Strikes Back?

Rian Johnson is reason enough to be hopeful.

Tony EH

orubiru wrote: »

Good question.

I guess the answer is because I'm a Star Wars fanboy. So are loads of people I know. I was going into Rogue One wanting it to be awesome and, from seeing the trailers, fully expecting it to be so.

I've been burned too much by the franchise to expect anything any more. So, I simply went seeing what would happen. Whether that had an effect I don't know. However, being an older fan, I was very happy at the more adult orientated Star Wars film, which dared to actually try and bring new ground to these films, in the shape of a more realistic rebellion, that didn't just consist of angel like good guys. Now all that remains is an Empire that doesn't consist largely of moustache twirling Hollywood baddies. Plus that ending took guts (if I can say that) from Disney. It actually made me feel something, other than simple nostalgia.

However, if I didn't like the film (or any other film for that matter) I wouldn't waste any time in trying to convince myself that I was wrong. Only you should tell yourself what your entertainment is.

orubiru wrote: »

So looking back on it I am thinking yeah, the final battle was cool and the scene with Darth Vader was cool but I was pretty damn bored for the first two thirds of the film.

The final battle was the best of its kind since 'Return of the Jedi'. It was exceptionally well handled and the stakes - even though we knew the ultimate outcome - felt high. That's because I wanted the Rogue One team to succeed - even though I knew the would.

orubiru wrote: »

I just felt like the characters were uninteresting and that there was a lot of messing around to just bring us to "are we gonna steal the plans for the Death Star... yeah let's do it".

I don't know why people think that the characters were uninteresting TBH. I found them more interesting than Mary Sue Rey and the frankly wretched Finn, who I count as one of the worst Star Wars characters I can think of. I liked Jyn Erso. She wasn't super cool at everything, simply to move a story along. Also, her wish to find her father I found believable - within a Star Wars context of course. Cassian Andor also felt believable. I genuinely though that he and the handicapped guy were going to try and make it out of their situation alive somehow. Thank christ that didn't happen and when he simply killed the guy to lighten HIS burden, I was actually a little shocked. So much so, that I fully expected him to be revealed as an Empire agent. This is the first time ever that we get to see such rounded people in a Star Wars film, which - besides Han Solo - usually consists of the most black and white tropes imaginable. Likewise Chirrut is interesting too, in that he's a slight force sensitive (presumably), but not a boring Jedi. I thought that was a great move, which allows another insight into the religion and its adherents. It's great to think that there are journeymen, laypeople and monks who keep the faith, as it were. His buddy, Baze, completes a convincing picture of a friendship that has lasted through many trials together. Lastly, Bodhi lets us see that the Empire is not simply made up of mindless automatons and includes, probably for the most part, simple functionaries that carry out their duties unaware or indifferent to the more sinister mechanisations of Palpatine. And, unlike Finn (laughably, a stormtrooper who suddenly decides after 20 years of service to pack it all in), Bodhi is a simple freighter pilot who defects when Galen Erso convinces him of the folly of his ways and the darker motives of the Empire.

To me, they are all great characters, with subtle reasons for their actions and place on screen, that allows the viewer a deeper insight into the people that populate the galaxy that series operates in. They're people, for the most part, rather than the usual hollywood uber heroes that saturate the screens. Also, we get to see that the war is a war, in that there are two sides willing to go to real lengths to achieve their victory, whether it's political assassination or leveling a city.

orubiru wrote: »

So many people are raving about it but they are raving about the last 30 minutes. In some cases people are just raving about the last 5 minutes.

Not me, I loved every minute and had no idea where we going in the film or how it was going to play out (besides the obvious stolen data tapes conclusion).

orubiru wrote: »

I'm just asking myself "am I missing something here".

Maybe you are. Some films take a few goes to settle in. It took about 5 viewings before I realised I actually liked 'They Live' and about the same before I got a similar realisation about 'Big Trouble in Little China'!

orubiru wrote: »

I'd say it was better than the 3 Prequels but not nearly as good as IV, V, VI and VII.

To me the prequels don't exist. They're mindnumbingly bad and beyond redemption. I gave 'Revenge of the Sith' another go the day before 'Rogue One' although it was a fan edit, which excised the more awful parts of that picture. But, it's still woeful.

And Episode VII is ridiculously overrated and certainly not as good as people are making out for reasons that are abundantly available elsewhere in interwebland and where 'Rogue One' augments the original Star Wars trilogy, 'The Force Awakens' merely copies it.

So, for me, the original trilogy (and I only watch the Harmy versions unadulterated by Lucas' appalling edits) is now a, satisfyingly enhanced, quadrilogy.

orubiru

PhiloCypher wrote: »

The first commenter of that article, a chap named YayMayorBee nailed why Hulk was wrong in some but not all of his criticisms .

Hm. It's posts like that one below the article that really makes me think that people do seem to go into "denial mode" right after these movies (I'd also include Marvel and DC movies in this).

This guys counter arguments to Film Critic Hulk do kind of feel valid but, in my opinion, the movie does not demonstrate these ideas well at all.

The viewer actually has to do quite a bit of work to convince themselves that the movie is good or that the movie actually does make sense.

I would say that Jyn and Cassian's changes of heart make sense BUT they are unearned in the context of the movie. There is no "pay off" that would normally be earned by building up good characters.

In ANH Han Solo has a change of heart and swoops in to help Luke. In ROTJ Vader has a change of heart and kills the Emperor. Both times in the original trilogy these changes of heart are really felt by the audience. When Han comes in to save the day there is an emotional pay off that we don't really feel when Cassian and Jyn decide to team up for the greater good.

The Darth Vader and Leia scenes at the end could just as easily be a Marvel-style post credit scene to be honest. Trying so hard to explain why the Darth Vader scene belongs in the film and why it works just feels off to me.

If we had seen more Darth Vader in the movie or if we had at least seen some interaction between Darth Vader and our good guy characters then it probably would have worked. In the end he just kind of appears from no where and takes out a bunch of faceless pawns that we feel nothing for.

It feels like people are trying to explain why scenes "make sense" or trying to rationalise why certain things must be in the movie but that's not going to be enough if the movie doesn't add any kind of emotional weight to those scenes.

Even the argument that it's a war movie not a heist movie falls flat.

I feel like if I were to watch a good war movie that follows a team of heroic characters who all die trying to achieve a noble goal then I would come out of that film feeling emotionally shattered. I'd expect to hear a good few sniffles in the audience when the sombre final scene remembers those fallen heroes. Those deaths should hit the audience hard. Really hard. Instead of that we got "OH MY GOD VADER WAS A BADASS". Just saying.

Then someone else would say to me "ah its just an action adventure for kids, lighten up" and round we go again.

Tony EH

mikhail wrote: »

I quite like their stuff normally, but I gave up watching this one part way through. They had nothing to say. They didn't like it, which is fine, but insufferable is not an unfair description.

They were their same usual selves, who I normally agree with, but I couldn't have disagreed harder with them about the film. They're wrong about in so many areas too.

david75

That term Mary Sue still pisses me off. It's pure sexist. If Rey was a male character with the same awakened abilities we would not even be talking about it other than the fact that he's a super powerful Jedi in the making. Wouldn't be questioned at all.

There's not even a comparable term for Anakin in the prequels. It's just accepted that he's crazy talented in the force. A 9 year old that can pod race. Of course he can.

But let a woman have the same ability? She's a Mary Sue.
It's really sh!t we still think like this.

Tony EH

Gary Stu.

Anakin is space Jesus though and his ridiculous abilities are just as silly.

However, Rey is literally brilliant at everything, even the force, which she found out about the very moring she successfully uses a Jedi mind trick on someone, without even knowing what a Jedi mind trick was. Her abilities are completely unearned. Film one and she's fecking marvelous.

I like Rey, though. Daisy Ridley wins through eventually because - well, she's watchable. But, her character is way too much at times.

It's just bad writing.

BMMachine

yeah I didn't get the Mary Sue thing at all. Just an annoying term tbh, one of those things phrases I learned existed for no good reason.

Ep 8 will have to do a sh*tload to be as good as Empire Strikes Back tbh. Objectively, Empire is just a great, fun film which created a perfect mood and tone. I feel the current iterations have too many moving parts and constantly need to explain themselves which does nothing to help their quality. The characters seem decent so far though, maybe aside from Finn who I hope doesn't end up as a loose cog. Even Domhnail Gleesons General Hux I like and I *want* to like Phasma but the film did her no favours. But they have a solid core with Rey, Poe and Kylo Ren and thats easy to build around. I *really* want them to push the boat out though and do something new and maybe shocking. I don't want just a play-it-by-the-numbers Disney mess similar to the Marvel films and Im too jaded with the modern industry to think it will be anything but this

Roar

david75 wrote: »

This is the greatest thing in all Star Wars ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E

Said seagulls gonna come. Poke me in the coconut. And they did. And they did.

I'm still laughing at his despite having seen it about 8 million times at this point.

Don't fall asleep. Don't.. fall.. asleep

david75

Roar wrote: »

Said seagulls gonna come. Poke me in the coconut. And they did. And they did.

I'm still laughing at his despite having seen it about 8 million times at this point.

Don't fall asleep. Don't.. fall.. asleep

It's just so brilliant. Funniest thing ever in Star Wars

Tony EH

BMMachine wrote: »

yeah I didn't get the Mary Sue thing at all. Just an annoying term tbh, one of those things phrases I learned existed for no good reason.

Ep 8 will have to do a sh*tload to be as good as Empire Strikes Back tbh. Objectively, Empire is just a great, fun film which created a perfect mood and tone. I feel the current iterations have too many moving parts and constantly need to explain themselves which does nothing to help their quality. The characters seem decent so far though, maybe aside from Finn who I hope doesn't end up as a loose cog. Even Domhnail Gleesons General Hux I like and I *want* to like Phasma but the film did her no favours. But they have a solid core with Rey, Poe and Kylo Ren and thats easy to build around. I *really* want them to push the boat out though and do something new and maybe shocking. I don't want just a play-it-by-the-numbers Disney mess similar to the Marvel films and Im too jaded with the modern industry to think it will be anything but this

General Hux was a, laughable, scenery chewing joke.

Finn was a buffoon, who never once convinces that he was a military man with 20+ plus years of service in an incredibly fascistic organisation and was there to fill the comic relief box.

And Captain Phasma is the living embodiment of fan ****, who will somehow escape the fate she should have recieved in VI (ie death) and return in VII to massage the idiots than can't take the death of people they like in movies.

They're terrible characters when you stop and think about it for a second.

BMMachine

Yeah I think Hux is bovrily - like him or don't. To me he is that preening ar$ehole, like Rimmer from Red Dwarf but actually capable.
Finn - yeah bad comedy, not sure where they are going with him at all and if hes even necessary. He didnt seem to be in ep 7, just more of a turnkey
Phasma - I like the idea of a Storm Trooper with an actual character. She *could* have been really good but was really let down by the film.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

General Hux was a, laughable, scenery chewing joke.

Finn was a buffoon, who never once convinces that he was a military man with 20+ plus years of service in an incredibly fascistic organisation and was there to fill the comic relief box.

And Captain Phasma is the living embodiment of fan ****, who will somehow escape the fate she should have recieved in VI (ie death) and return in VII to massage the idiots than can't take the death of people they like in movies.

They're terrible characters when you stop and think about it for a second.

I immediately took Finn as ecstatic exuberance finally broken free of a life in the military where he can actually be himself and not have to obey but just has a new life and he's over the moon with it and let's it take him wherever it takes him.

Tony EH

BMMachine wrote: »

Yeah I think Hux is bovrily - like him or don't. To me he is that preening ar$ehole, like Rimmer from Red Dwarf but actually capable.

Perhaps. But, his menace turns to to comedy too easily, which has me laughing instead of thinking this guy is dangerous, like Tarkin or Krennic. If I'm laughing at the bad guy, then the picture's lost me for that angle.

BMMachine wrote: »

Finn - yeah bad comedy, not sure where they are going with him at all and if hes even necessary. He didnt seem to be in ep 7, just more of a turnkey

Finn should have been a new recruit and super straight, who realises he's made an awful mistake when his first mission is to wipe out a village. The comedy, if it's needed at all (I would argue no) would come from his adjustment to being on the other side of the fight and his stiff military ways being blunted by Rey's more lively character. As it stands, he's one of the most awful things about 'The Force Awakens' and one of the worst Star Wars characters ever - IMO, of course.

BMMachine wrote: »

Phasma - I like the idea of a Storm Trooper with an actual character. She *could* have been really good but was really let down by the film.

She should have been good. But the bad writing of 'The Force Awakens' ruins her. She should never have been the one to let the shields down and cause the destruction of the Star Killer base for one thing. That was a terrible, terrible bit of writing. But worse, much worse, is having her return for VII, because fans can't accept that she should be total squish in a trash compactor that was on a planet that exploded.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

I immediately took Finn as ecstatic exuberance finally broken free of a life in the military where he can actually be himself and not have to obey but just has a new life and he's over the moon with it and let's it take him wherever it takes him.

I took him as a whooping, hollering, irritant that outstayed his welcome with his first yawp. Almost the Jar Jar Binks of new trilogy.

We'll have to agree to disagree so. :P

Hopefully, he'll be toned down - waaaay down - in Episode VIII.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

I took him as a whooping, hollering, irritant that outstayed his welcome with his first yawp. Almost the Jar Jar Binks of new trilogy.

We'll have to agree to disagree so. :P

Hopefully, he'll be toned down - waaaay down - in Episode VIII.

I was about to say there'll be no humour whatsoever in 8.

Then I remembered the story I read yesterday about There being little creatures on Luke's island that allow him to live there and they're adorable but can be terrifying
They could be the comedy.
This could be bullsh!t but MSW reported it and they're usually spot on.

But as for our main characters I can't see even Finn providing a valve through 'comedy' in 8. It's gonna be dark.

Victor

Tarkin for Snope!

Tony EH wrote: »

I found them more interesting than Mary Sue Rey and the frankly wretched Finn, who I count as one of the worst Star Wars characters I can think of.

Did you just rehabilitate Jar Jar Binks?

david75

Great news

Star Wars Story Group ‘Very Committed’ To Shared Continuity
http://screenrant.com/star-wars-story-group-movies-tv-shows-connections/

Osmosis Jones

It's not like humour itself is bad for Star Wars, Empire, while being the darkest of the series, has some of the silliest moments too.

david75

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

It's not like humour itself is bad for Star Wars, Empire, while being the darkest of the series, has some of the silliest moments too.

Good point. Empire is actually the funniest of them all. Han and Leia and Yoda. All gold. And natural.

Saw or last weekend and while it's better than the Force Awaken, that's hardly high praise. Rogue One is certainly thrilling and has so many throw backs to the original trilogy that fans will lap it up but the whole thing is really a little too clinical. Our lead is one of the blandest heroes in some time and there's a sense that much of the film was reshot to make her a little less interesting. CGI Peter Cushing is one of those wtf moments that just takes you out of the film, sure it's cool to see him but the FX work just isn't good enough and you're never in any doubt that you are watching a virtual construct, it's all in the eyes and the mouth, it looks like I imagine a Peter Cushing sex doll would look like.

The action, when it comes is fast and fun but so indebted to down and gritty Vietnam war films that it lacks that wow factor that the film needs. The best thing in the film is the always reliable Donnie Yen and the releationship between his character and Wen Jiang's. They are the heart and soul of the film and by far the most interesting thing here and I'd happily watch them in their own film.

Rogue One is good fun, but it's not a great film. It's entertaining, thrilling, full of nostalgic moments but it lacks that spark. It's tonally unsure of itself and there's a sense that yet again it's film making by committee.

But all that said, it entertained the hell out of my 8 year old brother and you know what, that's all that matters. I think the fundamental problem with criticising Star Wars is that they are kids films and as you grow older your expectations change and it's hard to look at any odd the newer films or prequels as you did when watching the original telling as a kid.

Tony EH

Victor wrote: »

Did you just rehabilitate Jar Jar Binks?

OH MY GOD!!!!! :eek:

Eh, no. He's "one of the worst". Not THE worst. That mantle will be forever held by Jar Jar.

Hopefully.

Tony EH

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

It's not like humour itself is bad for Star Wars, Empire, while being the darkest of the series, has some of the silliest moments too.

Nobody is saying that it is. But when you have characters specifically included for "comic relief" purposes, my irrtation starts twitching.

Han and Leia's bitching is genuniely funny.

Finn is not.

Even Han has to tell to dial it back in the film.

BTW, I'd argue that 'The Empire Strikes Back' title of darkest film in the series has been soundly taken by 'Rogue One'.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Nobody is saying that it is. But when you have characters specifically included for "comic relief" purposes, my irrtation starts twitching.

Han and Leia's bitching is genuniely funny.

Finn is not.

Even Han has to tell to dial it back in the film.

BTW, I'd argue that 'The Empire Strikes Back' title of darkest film in the series has been soundly taken by 'Rogue One'.

If you count it as part of the series. I don't yet. It's supplementary but not a necessary or vital part. Growing pains with it I guess.

Tony EH

It'll click later possibly.

I think it's actually the only Star Wars film since 'Return of the Jedi' to really feel like a Star Wars film.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

It'll click later possibly.

I think it's actually the only Star Wars film since 'Return of the Jedi' to really feel like a Star Wars film.

TFA did that for me. I need to make peace with this being so dark and let it find its place in the whole story.

Space battle is easily as good as Jedi. So brilliantly done

DrumSteve

I really wanted to see Donnie Yen fight Vader

david75

DrumSteve wrote: »

I really wanted to see Donnie Yen fight Vader

Would have been cool to see someone so devoted to the force face off against someone who was so powerful but warped and corrupted in the force.

Chirrut wouldn't have lasted long though in fairness.