Star Wars: Rogue One *spoilers from post 1195*

david75

This again.

Rogue one is a self contained act that has thinly and barely drawn characters.

Force awakens is the first act in a trilogy that is only establishing its characters.

There is no better than worse than. They're two different films. Completely.
If they were the same film with the same premise we could compare.


They're totally different. In every way. And force awakens succeeds in its mission to bring us to a satisfactory conclusion and gateway to its conclusion far more than rogue one does. As good as the end is, and it is wonderful, a film shouldn't depend on a boring trudging first two acts to give us a thrilling final act. It's an unbalanced mess.
It fails by being boring. Force awakens doesn't have the same challenge. We can't judge it cos we don't have context yet.

But people are enjoying it. Grand.

pixelburp

david75 wrote: »

This again.

Rogue one is a self contained act that has thinly and barely drawn characters.

Sorry, but I don't buy this. Rogue One practically fell over itself with nods and connections to New Hope. Now that's not a criticism, just an observation, but I don't buy Rogue One as standalone; it's Episode 3.5 and I daresay was there a competent way of working Ham, Luke or Obi-Wan into the narrative they would have done so. Heck given how it ended it's more like New Hope''s prologue more than anything ....

johnny_ultimate

FunLover18 wrote: »

In TFA, the characters drove the story (the quality and originality of which is a different discussion) whereas in R1 the characters dropped in and out of the film like passengers on the film's designated route.

Too a fault, even - the plot bends over backwards to accommodate the characters when and where they need to fit in (Han's convenient arrival being a notable example, or R2's sudden reawkening). It's common across all Abrams films, and he rightly gets called up on it quite regularly. Although honestly while I can pick the points in his different films where plot logic collapses in favour of character, setpiece, or emotional beat, I think he's such a confident 'in-the-moment' storyteller that I tend to forgive him for it. Ultimately, I think raw 'plot' is typically one of the most predictable elements of cinematic storytelling (and, indeed, storytelling in general), even in good stories, and for me one of the least interesting. You can break down any story into a basic step by step synopsis and it will sound deathly dull. Which is why I think I get a little left behind by plot-heavy films like Rogue One that feel a bit more like they have a checklist of plot developments they need to barrel through at the cost of, well, space for individual moments to really breathe.

Of course, I fully hope and almost expect Rian Johnson to bring the best of both approaches and *fingerscrossedthatdisneydonthavetheirwickedcorporatewaywithviii* potentially blow both films out of the water.

david75

pixelburp wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't buy this. Rogue One practically fell over itself with nods and connections to New Hope. Now that's not a criticism, just an observation, but I don't buy Rogue One as standalone; it's Episode 3.5 and I daresay was there a competent way of working Ham, Luke or Obi-Wan into the narrative they would have done so. Heck given how it ended it's more like New Hope''s prologue more than anything ....

It's a prequel for me. I'm working hard to try love it but will probably try just forget it exists if I'm honest. It has some great stuff. At the back end. But imagine it was the first Star are you ever saw. You'd have no interest in seeing any others probably. A disjointed mess.

You have to care about characters. A film has to make you involved and want to care about its characters. Or hate them. This films biggest failing is that it doesn't make you like anyone apart from maybe a droid.

A great idea but executed really poorly.

david75

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Too a fault, even - the plot bends over backwards to accommodate the characters when and where they need to fit in (Han's convenient arrival being a notable example, or R2's sudden reawkening). It's common across all Abrams films, and he rightly gets called up on it quite regularly. Although honestly while I can pick the points in his different films where plot logic collapses in favour of character, setpiece, or emotional beat, I think he's such a confident 'in-the-moment' storyteller that I tend to forgive him for it. Ultimately, I think raw 'plot' is typically one of the most predictable elements of cinematic storytelling (and, indeed, storytelling in general), even in good stories, and for me one of the least interesting. You can break down any story into a basic step by step synopsis and it will sound deathly dull. Which is why I think I get a little left behind by plot-heavy films like Rogue One that feel a bit more like they have a checklist of plot developments they need to barrel through at the cost of, well, space for individual moments to really breathe.

Of course, I fully hope and almost expect Rian Johnson to bring the best of both approaches and *fingerscrossedthatdisneydonthavetheirwickedcorporatewaywithviii* potentially blow both films out of the water.

Hit enter once in a while.

FunLover18

Tony EH wrote: »

How exactly did 'The Force Awakens' "establish" its characters?

Rey HAS no character, other than being an abandoned orphan who can do everything from scavenging to Jedi mind tricks while maintaining a jolly hockysticks pep.

Finn is a 20 year stormtrooper veteran who, literally, decides on a whim that it's no longer for him any more and Jar Jar's his way through the rest of the film.

And Poe has nothing, literally nothing.

Every other character we know already, because they were already in the other films.

The level of nit picking on this film is borderline Aspergers. :pac:

Rey is an orphan and we see clearly what impact this has had on her; she's a scavenger, has grown up having to fend for herself. As a result she'd headstrong, independent, and stubborn. She wants to escape her life and be something more. Compare this to Jyn; we know she's an orphan and was raised by an extremist rebel but we have no idea what impact this had on her. She flip-flops from not wanting anything to do with the rebellion to practically leading it and her reasons for either stance are never explored.

Finn is someone who was raised a stormtrooper and has lived his whole life by regulation and we see in one moment that he doesn't understand why. He spends the rest of film as someone who for the first time doesn't have to worry about following orders, which is both exciting and terrifying if he's ever caught. He's discovering who he is as the audience does the same.

Poe is definitely the least well defined of the new characters in TFA but there's foundation there for someone who joined the rebellion because it looked like fun and adventure. I could be wrong but that angle wouldn't surprise me, he seemed way to eager to accept Finn as a bosom buddy and we could see that come back on him with a different character.

R1 meanwhile was a mess of cardboard cutouts. The temple/crystal guards showed up when Jyn needed saving from troopers and ended up tagging along for the rest of the film. The pilot too completed his mission by delivering the message and ended up tagging along too. The film went out of it's way to make the story as convoluted as possible, so the crew could visit as many planets as possible but all I needed was a simple ' the plans are here, we need to assemble a team and go get em' movie, Guns of Navarone style, you've then got more time to explore the characters and what drives them which leads to that ending having the impact it deserves.

Slydice

Ben Gadot

pixelburp wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't buy this. Rogue One practically fell over itself with nods and connections to New Hope. Now that's not a criticism, just an observation, but I don't buy Rogue One as standalone; it's Episode 3.5 and I daresay was there a competent way of working Ham, Luke or Obi-Wan into the narrative they would have done so. Heck given how it ended it's more like New Hope''s prologue more than anything ....

It is a standalone story as in it's a closed loop where all the primary characters involved have had their arcs completed.

It had vague tie ins but we always knew it would.

Slydice

That trailer I just posted.

Looks like they are getting it linked to Rebels directly.

We'll see where they take it.

Maybe Gerrera was never asking Jyn 'What will you become?'

Maybe he was saying it to Ezra!!
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

strandroad

FunLover18 wrote: »

Rey is an orphan and we see clearly what impact this has had on her; she's a scavenger, has grown up having to fend for herself. As a result she'd headstrong, independent, and stubborn. She wants to escape her life and be something more. Compare this to Jyn; we know she's an orphan and was raised by an extremist rebel but we have no idea what impact this had on her. She flip-flops from not wanting anything to do with the rebellion to practically leading it and her reasons for either stance are never explored.

Dunno, it seemed pretty clear to me. We can see that she's been abandoned twice (she throws that in Saw's face) and as a result she's only out for for herself and "won't look up" although she's clearly capable. She's locked all this away to survive but meeting Saw and seeing her father's message brings them back; she learns about the backdoor he created i.e. his legacy of sorts and she sees the destruction of Jedha - even if she saves people on the ground like she did with the little girl, they will be destroyed anyway so she needs to go after the big one and has the key to it. She's only leading Rogue One (more like co-leading with the captain tbh), what follows is not down to her.

She actually seems much less enigmatic than Rey to me (we will learn more about Rey for sure though).

Captain Andor is way more complex than Finn too. Both Jyn/Cassian are more adult than adventure like Rey/Finn because it's a different genre really. There's no need to introduce comedy for them for example.

david75

Slydice wrote: »

And another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0cP4ULXD58

Penn

Tony EH wrote: »

Rey HAS no character, other than being an abandoned orphan who can do everything from scavenging to Jedi mind tricks while maintaining a jolly hockysticks pep.

Much like Luke in Episode 4. Farmboy to X-Wing Fighter Pilot in the space of a few days.

Tony EH wrote: »

Finn is a 20 year stormtrooper veteran who, literally, decides on a whim that it's no longer for him any more and Jar Jar's his way through the rest of the film.

He doesn't decide on a whim after 20 years. He worked in the sanitation department on Starkiller Base, and the mission at the start of the film was his first mission. He sees (someone who is likely a friend) get killed and the horrors of what Ren and the First Order are doing first hand, he decides to leave.

Tony EH wrote: »

And Poe has nothing, literally nothing.

Because he was originally supposed to be killed off after crashing. But they decided to bring him back so he can come back in later films, where it's likely he'll be developed further.

golfball37

I watched the first ten minutes of New Hope after finally seeing R1 last week. It gave me goosebumps when I read the line “have won their first victory over the Galactic Empire” I have to say.
R1 went from the sublime to the ridiculous at times but if it can give me something extra when watching the Original Trilogy for the 1000th time then it served its purpose, as far as I’m concerned.

Seanachai

Tony EH wrote: »

How exactly did 'The Force Awakens' "establish" its characters?

Rey HAS no character, other than being an abandoned orphan who can do everything from scavenging to Jedi mind tricks while maintaining a jolly hockysticks pep.

Finn is a 20 year stormtrooper veteran who, literally, decides on a whim that it's no longer for him any more and Jar Jar's his way through the rest of the film.

And Poe has nothing, literally nothing.

Every other character we know already, because they were already in the other films.

The level of nit picking on this film is borderline Aspergers. :pac:

I think film making has been turned over to the middle-managers just like almost every other industry unfortunately. The wrong people have their a**es in the wrong seats.

NIMAN

Saw R1 for the 2nd time the other day, this time in 3D.

Have to say, I enjoyed it more the 2nd time round, and my rating went from a '7' to an '8'. I think its excellent. Even my OH, who isn't into SQ or sci-fi films, said it was excellent.

I think its a better film than TFA, which I thought was too similar a story to Star Wars.

But there's a little too much nit picking on these threads, some people are way too anal about what is basically entertainment. If you like a film, you like it. Accept that others might not, and we'll all get along!

J Mysterio

I just felt that most of the R1 rebel characters were ****. Just quite lifeless and dull.

Mendolsohn was good though.

tigger123

golfball37 wrote: »

I watched the first ten minutes of New Hope after finally seeing R1 last week. It gave me goosebumps when I read the line “have won their first victory over the Galactic Empire” I have to say.
R1 went from the sublime to the ridiculous at times but if it can give me something extra when watching the Original Trilogy for the 1000th time then it served its purpose, as far as I’m concerned.

For me this was one of (but not the) most enjoyable elements of R1; it gives so much more context to the events and characters in A New Hope, and allows you watch it again with renewed eyes. Really enjoyed that aspect of it.

murpho999

I don't get why people are complaining about R1 characters or their lack of development.

Why do people want this when the film’s main purpose was to tell a story.

Did people want the movie to be 4 hours long so they go into each character’s back story or show more interaction between them?

I have seen it twice now and enjoyed it each time. The film did its job just right which is to show how the characters got together and went about getting the plans to the rebels.

Ping Chow Chi

I liked it - and I now have my Star Wars Trilogy - R1, New Hope & Empire ... yes the ending is a little open ended, but it means no Ewoks!
On a slightly more serious note - I actually watched the first two films in the original trilogy for the first time in nearly 20 years after watching this film.  After the prequals I couldn't muster the motivation to watch them again, but this brought it back.

Tony EH

FunLover18 wrote: »

Rey is an orphan and we see clearly what impact this has had on her; she's a scavenger, has grown up having to fend for herself. As a result she'd headstrong, independent, and stubborn. She wants to escape her life and be something more. Compare this to Jyn; we know she's an orphan and was raised by an extremist rebel but we have no idea what impact this had on her. She flip-flops from not wanting anything to do with the rebellion to practically leading it and her reasons for either stance are never explored.

Rey and Jyn are as fleshed out as much as each other. Rey only gets away with it because there's another couple of films to go to explore her more and is subject to Star Wars fan wankery about who's daughter she is. Jyn doesn't have that luxury. But what we get with Jyn suffices. We know she's been forced to into hiding with Saw Gerrera and has had to adapt as best she can, but has morphed into a cynical being who is simply trying to stay alive. He turning point is her chance to reconnect with her father, but also persue a higher cause in stealing the plans for the Death Star.

That's really all we need. This is a space opera, not 'Tokyo Story'.

FunLover18 wrote: »

Finn is someone who was raised a stormtrooper and has lived his whole life by regulation and we see in one moment that he doesn't understand why. He spends the rest of film as someone who for the first time doesn't have to worry about following orders, which is both exciting and terrifying if he's ever caught. He's discovering who he is as the audience does the same.

Finn is a shit character (one of the worst Star Wars characters IMO), who is never once remotely convincing. He's comic relief and the audience avatar. That's all. The idea that after 20 years he'd suddenly have a change of heart and turn into a buffoon is ridiculous to say the least.

FunLover18 wrote: »

Poe is definitely the least well defined of the new characters in TFA but there's foundation there for someone who joined the rebellion because it looked like fun and adventure. I could be wrong but that angle wouldn't surprise me, he seemed way to eager to accept Finn as a bosom buddy and we could see that come back on him with a different character.

As I already said, there is nothign to Poe. People can say all they want about characters in 'Rogue One', but Poe beats everyone hands down for nothingness.

There are reasons to dislike 'Rogue One', but characters isn't it. Especially if someone is trying to compare them with the "characters" in 'The Force Awakens', that's for sure.

FunLover18 wrote: »

R1 meanwhile was a mess of cardboard cutouts. The temple/crystal guards showed up when Jyn needed saving from troopers and ended up tagging along for the rest of the film. The pilot too completed his mission by delivering the message and ended up tagging along too. The film went out of it's way to make the story as convoluted as possible, so the crew could visit as many planets as possible but all I needed was a simple ' the plans are here, we need to assemble a team and go get em' movie, Guns of Navarone style, you've then got more time to explore the characters and what drives them which leads to that ending having the impact it deserves.

People are being stupid on this film, for some reason and I don't really know why. Anything you've said above can be labelled not only with 'The Force Awakens', but with other films too. 'Aliens' for example is a list of cardboard cutouts (besides Ripley), but nobody complains there. You talk about "convoluted"? NOTHING is as convoluted has the Millennium Falcon sitting on Tattooine II for decades, to be flown by Mary Sue straight into the hands of Han Solo and Chewbacca, who just happened to be in the area. :pac: Plus Yoda II just happens to have Luke's Lightsabre knocking around. How convinient!

Honestly, it's absurd the level some people are going to try and denigrate the film. If people don't like it, fine, I'm not going to tell people what their entertainment should be. But people would want to be armed with better reasoning tbh.

Tony EH

Penn wrote: »

Much like Luke in Episode 4. Farmboy to X-Wing Fighter Pilot in the space of a few days.

Actually, Luke was already a pilot. It's not like he just sat in a cockpit and took off. Rey, uses jedi mind tricks despite the fact that she litteraly only heard heard that the Jedi weren't a myth THAT VERY DAY!

Penn wrote: »

He doesn't decide on a whim after 20 years. He worked in the sanitation department on Starkiller Base, and the mission at the start of the film was his first mission. He sees (someone who is likely a friend) get killed and the horrors of what Ren and the First Order are doing first hand, he decides to leave.

Finn was kidnapped :rolleyes: by the Empire II and has about 20+ years of service under his belt. He then decides to quit because he sees them kill a few civvies and his mate Stormtrooper 837362 gets whacked. Even if he was just cleaning the jacks, what the hell did he think the New Order was about anyway? It's just stupid. A terribly written character (who may yet be redeemed in later episodes).

Penn wrote: »

Because he was originally supposed to be killed off after crashing. But they decided to bring him back so he can come back in later films, where it's likely he'll be developed further.

Probably. But again, comparing characters in 'The Force Awakens' and 'Rogue One' while trying to maintain that one film "developed" characters better than the other is silly.

Penn

Tony EH wrote: »

People are being stupid on this film, for some reason and I don't really know why. Anything you've said above can be labelled not only with 'The Force Awakens', but with other films too. 'Aliens' for example is a list of cardboard cutouts (besides Ripley), but nobody complains there. You talk about "convoluted"? NOTHING is as convoluted has the Millennium Falcon sitting on Tattooine II for decades, to be flown by Mary Sue straight into the hands of Han Solo and Chewbacca, who just happened to be in the area. :pac: Plus Yoda II just happens to have Luke's Lightsabre knocking around. How convinient!

Luke just happened to buy R2D2 and C3PO (who even though there are identical models of droids in the Galaxy, just happens to be the only one who was built by his father). They have to rescue Leia who just so happens to be Luke's twin sister. Obi-Wan just so happens to come across C3PO and R2D2 again even though none of them recognise each other (fair enough C3PO's memory was wiped). And as stated, Luke is every bit as much a Mary Sue (or Wesley Crusher or whatever the male version is) as he goes from farmboy to X-wing fighter pilot in the space of a few days and just happens to make a bang-on shot using the Force which he has been barely taught rather than using the ship's targeting system which was also still working.

The original Star Wars films are every bit as convoluted. As were the prequel films in which Anakin was a male Mary Sue too.

Tony EH wrote: »

Actually, Luke was already a pilot. It's not like he just sat in a cockpit and took off. Rey, uses jedi mind tricks despite the fact that she litteraly only heard heard that the Jedi weren't a myth THAT VERY DAY!

Luke shot the equivalent of big rats in a small ship. Hardly reason to instantly promote him to fighter pilot considering none of the generals would have been able to verify or know how good he was bar the word of his mate. Rey, after touching the lightsaber, feels a connection to the Force. We don;t yet know why or how, but she knows she's connected to the Force and allows it to work through her, same way Luke is able to deflect the blasts on the Falcon without being able to see them.

Tony EH wrote: »

Finn was kidnapped :rolleyes: by the Empire II and has about 20+ years of service under his belt. He then decides to quit because he sees them kill a few civvies and his mate Stormtrooper 837362 gets whacked. Even if he was just cleaning the jacks, what the hell did he think the New Order was about anyway? It's just stupid. A terribly written character (who may yet be redeemed in later episodes).

I'm not saying he's a great character, just that seeing the horrors of war first hand were enough to make him stand up and leave.

Tony EH wrote: »

Probably. But again, comparing characters in 'The Force Awakens' and 'Rogue One' while trying to maintain that one film "developed" characters better than the other is silly.

Rey, Finn and Poe have more films ahead of them. Neither Luke nor Leia were particularly well developed in the first film imo, but they're obviously building to something, particularly with Rey. Rogue One characters essentially are one-and-done, and it's unlikely we'll see any of them again. The need for character development between those in R1 and TFA are completely different.

Tony EH

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't get why people are complaining about R1 characters or their lack of development.

Why do people want this when the film’s main purpose was to tell a story.

Did people want the movie to be 4 hours long so they go into each character’s back story or show more interaction between them?

I have seen it twice now and enjoyed it each time. The film did its job just right which is to show how the characters got together and went about getting the plans to the rebels.

Agreed.

People complaining about the characters being "lifeless" etc, what do you want them to be? 'Rogue One' is a war film, set in a war. People aren't going to be Finn type clowns with silly laugh inserts. They are on a life or death mission, not a jolly romp.

Plus, I liked the way the Rebels were presented in 'Rogue One'. They aren't the goody two shoes cliche were usually see. There's a darker win at all cost element to them that's far more realistic a representation of warring faction than in most films of this type. I very much welcome the more adult approach and hope it continues.

And as you say, if 'Rogue One' spent more time "developing characters", people would be moaning that it's too long.

This "developing characters" malarkey is a very strange complaint to have about a film of this type too, especially when most films at around 90 minutes, are too short to develop character in any real way.

Tony EH

Penn wrote: »

Luke just happened to buy R2D2 and C3PO (who even though there are identical models of droids in the Galaxy, just happens to be the only one who was built by his father). They have to rescue Leia who just so happens to be Luke's twin sister. Obi-Wan just so happens to come across C3PO and R2D2 again even though none of them recognise each other (fair enough C3PO's memory was wiped). And as stated, Luke is every bit as much a Mary Sue (or Wesley Crusher or whatever the male version is) as he goes from farmboy to X-wing fighter pilot in the space of a few days and just happens to make a bang-on shot using the Force which he has been barely taught rather than using the ship's targeting system which was also still working.

The original Star Wars films are every bit as convoluted. As were the prequel films in which Anakin was a male Mary Sue too.

You've just proven my point. Complaining about 'Rogue One' being convoluted is crazy, when there's a ton of it in every other Star Wars film and in a lot of other films that are less criticised.

However, I don't count all the retcons in the prequels. Dumbass films that destroyed the franchise IMO. It's possible watch Star Wars without their existence and the further Disney move away from them the better.

Penn wrote: »

Luke shot the equivalent of big rats in a small ship. Hardly reason to instantly promote him to fighter pilot considering none of the generals would have been able to verify or know how good he was bar the word of his mate. Rey, after touching the lightsaber, feels a connection to the Force. We don;t yet know why or how, but she knows she's connected to the Force and allows it to work through her, same way Luke is able to deflect the blasts on the Falcon without being able to see them.

Yavin was facing a crisis where she would be obliterated (and everbody on her too). "Promoting" a T-16 pilot to join the ranks of their airforce isn't that bad an idea. I have an easier time buying that, than I do Rey being brilliant at everything she tries because she has to move the plot along. Seriously, she does a Jedio mind trick on a stormtrooper, despite the fact that she a.) thought Luke Skywalker and the Jedi were a myth and b.) didn't have a clue what a Jedi mind trick was. That scene is one of the dumbest scenes in any Star Wars film. Luke deflecting the remotes blasts while being trained by Kenobi makes a lot more sense. He's taking his "first step into a larger world". He still gets his ass handed to him though and had a mentor to guide him.

Penn wrote: »

I'm not saying he's a great character, just that seeing the horrors of war first hand were enough to make him stand up and leave.

After 20+ years of literally knowng nothing else? I don't think so. Plus, why make him a clown? That's probably his worst offence.

Penn wrote: »

Rey, Finn and Poe have more films ahead of them. Neither Luke nor Leia were particularly well developed in the first film imo, but they're obviously building to something, particularly with Rey.

True, which is why they get a pass and Jyn etc get pounced on. It doesn't really compute.

david75

This is a really great video that fairly and evenly addresses any force awakens / a new hope comparisons. It's worth a watch.
https://youtu.be/YbaliPyihCY

johnny_ultimate

This argument is neglecting one key thing: Kylo Ren is the most interesting character of them all anyway :cool:

david75

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

This argument is neglecting one key thing: Kylo Ren is the most interesting character of them all anyway :cool:

Well as a perfect counter point to Rey who is shrouded in mystery all his demons and struggles are in full display. He's a far more interesting and compelling bad guy than probably any in Star Wars. A work in progress rather than finished product.

tigger123

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

This argument is neglecting one key thing: Kylo Ren is the most interesting character of them all anyway :cool:

Adam Driver's performance combined with the production values around the character really gave him depth.

FunLover18

Tony EH wrote: »

Honestly, it's absurd the level some people are going to try and denigrate the film. If people don't like it, fine, I'm not going to tell people what their entertainment should be. But people would want to be armed with better reasoning tbh.

You're not going to tell us what our entertainment should be but you are going to tell us whether our reasons for liking/disliking a film are good enough :rolleyes:

Rey and Finn need a ship to get off Tatooine II, that's not convoluted, it could have been any ship. Having it be the Millenium Falcon is contirved, but it serves a purpose in getting Han and Chewie into the story.

Having Jyn and Cassian visit Jeddha to collect a pilot with a message, so they can also bump into the temple guides, and then go to some other planet where they can meet Jyn's dad who sent the message they went to get from the pilot then go back to rebel base so that Jyn can deliver the inspirational speech so that they can go get the plans another planet is convoluted. I don't even know if that's the right order of events, I don't care, it was boring and it was boring because I didn't give a **** about any of the characters. I did care in TFA for reasons stated previously. They're my reasons for disliking R1 and they're good enough for me.

A better comparison would have been Guardians Of the Galaxy a film which is shorter than R1 and did a much better job of establishing character through dialogue and actions. Groot has a vocabulary of three words and he's much more well defined character than anyone in R1 because of how he interacts with other characters. A movie doesn't need 4 hours of backstory to establish characters. R1 struggled with characters interacting with each other, too much time spent on space shots and unnecessary action set pieces.

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

This argument is neglecting one key thing: Kylo Ren is the most interesting character of them all anyway :cool:

Probably the best thing about 'The Force Awakens'.

Even then, people pissed and moaned about him.