Star Wars: Rogue One *spoilers from post 1195*

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

Because they didn't want to give away the reveal that it was Vader's gaff, even though it was kinda obvious.

But Krennic says he's going to see Vader, doesn't he? It's hardly a reveal.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

I often wonder have you ever even watched the force awakens Tony?
Han and Leia are central to the story. Their son Kylo is the main antagonist.
Luke is also in the film as his uncle and former master.
Everything else Isjust design language in an established universe. Of course there's gonna be TIE fighters and X wings(and droids and lightsabers)
Both the first order and the resistance are working from the fringes with limited assets and in the FOs case wanting to remain secret until the declare themselves as depicted in events in TFA.

My point was a count has been done and rogue one has far more references to the original trilogy than TFA has. More being discovered daily as people get there hands on the blu Ray.


Rogue one can't survive at all as it's own film. It's totally dependent on the oxygen of a new hope to be able to work. Even then it has trouble. The guy posting top of the page asking where is this film set in the timeline, is representative of the majority of people I know who aren't fans.
'Cool movie. No idea what it was about. Oh yeah. The Death Star. Again.'

I watched it for the third time a couple of nights ago. It still has the most awful problems that I just cannot get past.

And as I said, everything is 2.0.

Rey - Luke 2.0
Han - Ben 2.0
Star killer base - Death Star 2.0
TIE fighters - TIE Fighters 2.0
X Wings - X Wings 2.0
Stormtroopers - Stormtroopers 2.0
Empire - Empire 2.0
Emperor - Emperor 2.0
Vader - Vader 2.0
Galactic civil war - Galactic civil war 2.0
etc

The entire film is stuffed with recalls from the original films and while 'Rogue One' has some of the same stuff as the OT, it NEEDS to because it's set a few days before the original 'Star Wars'. It makes sense for that film to reflect 'Star Wars', but no real sense for 'The Force Awakens' to, because of its time period.

'The Force Awakens' didn't need any of that. What it really needed was to be its own film, with its own story. But JJ was put in charge to reboot the series for Disney and he played it as safe as he could, just like he did with the 'Star Trek' reboot. So safe, he just copypasta'd the OT and repackaged it.

It's a real pity that Disney hadn't the balls to go with something better. I read the outline for 'Bloodlines' a while ago and thought that would have made a great film. I thought myself that a great opener for the new trilogy would have been charting Luke's failure with Kylo Ren and the subsequent destruction of his Jedi school.

The more I look at 'The Force Awakens' the more disapointed I become with it and I wasn't that impressed in the first place. It wasn't very well written, it has some wretched characters and it feels like fan fiction.

Sad Professor

Tony EH wrote: »

But Krennic says he's going to see Vader, doesn't he? It's hardly a reveal.

I don't think so. It's right after the rebels attack the base on Eadu.

Tony EH

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Especially when we don't need the names to follow the plot. I found myself thinking "Blogboo, remember, blogboo, must be important", and it wasn't. Removing those titles would have made the movie less confusing, not more.

Can't say that it bothered me at all.

david75 wrote: »

Hey let's take out the opening crawl

This did though. can't understand the rationale for that.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

I don't think so. It's right after the rebels attack the base on Eadu.

Does he not announce he's off to see Vader?

Can't remember exactly.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

I watched it for the third time a couple of nights ago. It still has the most awful problems that I just cannot get past.

And as I said, everything is 2.0.

Rey - Luke 2.0
Han - Ben 2.0
Star killer base - Death Star 2.0
TIE fighters - TIE Fighters 2.0
X Wings - X Wings 2.0
Stormtroopers - Stormtroopers 2.0
Empire - Empire 2.0
Emperor - Emperor 2.0
Vader - Vader 2.0
Galactic civil war - Galactic civil war 2.0
etc

The entire film is stuffed with recalls from the original films and while 'Rogue One' has some of the same stuff as the OT, it NEEDS to because it's set a few days before the original 'Star Wars'. It makes sense for that film to reflect 'Star Wars', but no real sense for 'The Force Awakens' to, because of its time period.

'The Force Awakens' didn't need any of that. What it really needed was to be its own film, with its own story. But JJ was put in charge to reboot the series for Disney and he played it as safe as he could, just like he did with the 'Star Trek' reboot. So safe, he just copypasta'd the OT and repackaged it.

It's a real pity that Disney hadn't the balls to go with something better. I read the outline for 'Bloodlines' a while ago and thought that would have made a great film. I thought myself that a great opener for the new trilogy would have been charting Luke's failure with Kylo Ren and the subsequent destruction of his Jedi school.

The more I look at 'The Force Awakens' the more disapointed I become with it and I wasn't that impressed in the first place. It wasn't very well written, it has some wretched characters and it feels like fan fiction.

You're forgetting though. They needed to make the world love Star Wars again. Not just the Star Wars fans. The last Star Wars they saw was awful. The prequels. How do you make people interested again? You give them what they know and remember and they love.
First act in a trilogy is nothing but set up and exposition anyways. Jj did a great job of installing his mystery box into that. Who is Rey? Where is luke? Who is snoke? What's going on in the galaxy?
ThTs all of really needed to do and it does it.

Wretched characters?? Cmon. That's not fair.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

You're forgetting though. They needed to make the world love Star Wars again. Not just the Star Wars fans. The last Star Wars they saw was awful. The prequels. How do you make people interested again? You give them what they know and remember and they love.

None of which is in contention. But, you were talking about fan service in 'Rogue One'. The entirety of 'The Force Awakens' is fan service writ large.

david75 wrote: »

First act in a trilogy is nothing but set up and exposition anyways. Jj did a great job of installing his mystery box into that. Who is Rey? Where is luke? Who is snoke? What's going on in the galaxy?
ThTs all of really needed to do and it does it.

The problem is very little is truly satisfactory about it. Who is Rey indeed. A nobody supergirl who can instantly use the force, without even knowing anything about it, the Jedi or even who Luke Skywalker was. Her buildup should have been much, much better handled. That Jedi mind trick with Daniel Craig is one of the worst scenes in any Star Wars film that I have ever seen. The film lost me at that point and I realised that JJ didn't really give a fcuk beyond his reboot brief.

Who is Snoke indeed. Emperor 2.0, because there was an Emperor in the OT.

Where is Luke? This is probably one of the most disappointing things about TFA. Luke pussies out because Kylo went bad and killed his trainees, so he went off to Kerry to hide? WTF? That certainly needs answering.

What's going on in the galaxy? I'll tell you what's going on in this galaxy. It's a retread of ground already covered in the 1977 film, because the makers were too afraid to come up with an original story and risk their billion dollar investment. So, what we have is a wipe out of what came before and a reboot of the Empire vs Rebellion - it's just packaged as The First order vs Resistance. It couldn't have been lamer.

What we should have seen is the gradual rise of Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren as the main villains of the piece, with Luke's battle to right his mistakes, with the enlistment of Rey. there was no need for any repetition at all.

david75 wrote: »

Wretched characters?? Cmon. That's not fair.

SOME wretched characters.

Rey is far too over powered. To the point where I couldn't give a crap what happens to her, because she'll get out of it easily. There is literally nothing that happens to her that's any real threat. Half way through the film she just Force's her way out of a tight spot, when she's caught by Kylo . Why should I care? She's an orphan that lives on Tatooine Jakku (they couldn't even be arsed making her home planet different to Luke's) that has somehow survived from the age of 6 to be this uber everything as long as the silly plot requires it, great pilot, great linguist, great swordsman, instant Jedi. That's a terribly written character. She faces no challenges whatsoever and goes from place to place just to move the story along. She has absolutely no motivation to be anywhere but Jakku.

Poe is a nothing, quippy "all American" hero type that can singlehandedly knock the bad guys from the sky and pick off individual men on the ground as if he was playing Battlefront. Not only that his purpose in teh film he completely abandons. He's tasked with getting a piece of information (can they not just transmit it?) to the Rebellion Resistance (because that's what happened in the OT), yet once he's thrown clear of his TIE fighter TIE fighter 2.0 he just goes, yeh fcuk R2D2 BB-8 and the info he carries, I'll (somehow) leave the planet and bugger off anyway. What?

And Finn, oh my god, Finn. One of the worst characters in anything Star Wars. A supposed Stormtrooper, raised from a child to "do one thing". That "one thing" is a pitiful attempt at comic relief in a sub par Star Wars film it seems. The writing for this guy is awful. He doesn't, not once, ever convince that he's been part of a strict military upbringing. The idea of a defecting stormtrooper is great, but Finn is THE WORST way to portray it. His stupid lines are eyerollingly bad. So bad, even Solo has to tell him to "bring it down". FFS. Please stay in a coma for Episode VIII.

And that's just the mains. There are others in there too that are questionable, at best. Miss Cantina or Nu-Yoda for one and having Han Solo be a smuggler? What? Just because he was that in the original 'Star Wars'. That's appalling writing.

'The Force Awakens' may be better than the prequels, that wouldn't be hard, but it's the weakest attempt possible at kicking off a new series of Star Wars films that I could imagine. I understand that Disney wanted to make sure of a good return on their money and they looking for a franchise. In that respect, it brings its whole raison d'être into serious question.

Anyway, we're off topic

david75

We're never gonna agree on any of this:)
It's the first act in a trilogy. You can't have everything explained in the first act. Point of a first act is to set up the story and in this case all the questions/mysteries.
If you really think it a retread I'd love to know what other story you could tell in that universe where you're dealing with a light side a dark side and a republic and it's enemy. That's the established framework of all three Star Wars trilogies so far.
Though I'm thinking this one isnt going to do that at all.

Tony EH

I'm not asking to "have everything explained in the first act", I'm asking for better writing.

Maybe VIII can have the balls to provide me with something good and I can just write off TFA as a bit of a dud.

'Rogue One' showed me that Disney can do it, if they put it in the right hands.

We'll see.

TerrorFirmer

It's a tired argument but I do agree with Tony. TFA is a good film as films go - let that be clear off the bat - but it's a very diluted by-the-numbers Star Wars experience. I think it was just mass collective relief that it was actually a pretty good movie after suffering through the prequels that blew it up (no pun intended) into something that it never was to begin with.

One thing I will say about the prequels is that despite turning out to be perfectly horrible Star Wars films, they had some great imagination and vision. The Force Awakens has barely any semblence of an original idea of any type. It's all a massive nod and a wink to the older films, from characters, to locations, to design and dialogue. Even The Phantom Menance has some very memorable scenes (Obi Wan/Qui Gon vs Darth Maul for example, arguably the best combat scene in the entire franchise). Apart from being a generally good movie, what does TFA have? Loads of scenes with great potential, but nothing nailed it.

I would even somewhat be inclined to buy the whole 'you need to rethread to build and move forward' argument if the film even accomplished that in any meanginful way but it doesnt. The political status quo - the empire, the republic, the rebellion - and the motivations behind same - why the empire is building another 'death star/planet', relations between the republic/empire, why the rebellion even exists - is about as clear as a glass of soy sauce.

It's a solid sci-fi adventure yarn that's well paced but it's too tired, too poorly set up and too familiar to me to be anything other than that. It has promise though as a franchise. I've my fingers crossed for Last Jedi. Rogue One felt more like a real Star Wars film to me than The Force Awakens did. It has a certain weight, peril and frantic edge to it that TFA totally lacked (notwithstanding that we know their fate before the movie even begins). Despite the change in tone from other franchise films, I felt like I was watching 'Star Wars'. I didn't really feel that about TFA.

Tony EH

I know I go on about the prequels a lot, but I agree there was a story to be told there. It was just told awfully. But at least there was a story. Change a few things (well, actually a lot), eliminate some other things, do away with stuffing it full of familiar characters that have no business being there and you have a good basis to build on.

'The Force Awakens' is just "generic space action adventure movie" that relies far, far too much on retreading things that were already established in the audience's heads (or the vast bulk thereof), just like JJ's Star Trek reboot was.

I think another problem with TFA, is that we're dropped in half way through the story. Sure, Star Wars tends to do that. But here, it's just too much and it leaves way too much WHY for the audience. Why is the First Order here? What do they want? Why are they motivated to do what they're doing? Why did Kylo turn, Why did Luke bugger off? Why is Leia leading the Rebellion 2.0? Too much has happened off screen and some exposition should have been made to clarify the state of current play. We're only presuming that somehow this will be explained in VIII. I wouldn't be surprised at all though, if we're all still none-the-wiser for most situational questions at the end of that film either.

My fingers are crossed too, but the more I watch TFA, the more I dislike it.

johnny_ultimate

Tony EH wrote: »

the more I watch TFA, the more I dislike it.

Do you mind me asking how many times you have watched it? Just seems unusual to rewatch a film you very evidently dislike...

Tony EH

I've seen it three times now. I keep making excuses for it. I keep thinking, it's me.

It's not, it's the film.

I might make my own cut of it. Less Finn, less stupid. It might make it more watchable.

It's an ok film, but just ok.

Falthyron

Tony EH wrote: »

I've seen it three times now. I keep making excuses for it. I keep thinking, it's me.

It's not, it's the film.

I might make my own cut of it. Less Finn, less stupid. It might make it more watchable.

It's an ok film, but just ok.

I think the word you are looking for is: 'safe'. It is a safe movie. Unfortunately, when there is a lot of expectation and hope, people choose to play it safe to make sure it doesn't become a disaster, i.e. like the prequels. TFA is good at a lot of things, but not spectacular or great at any one thing.

david75

It's mad. It d level all of the above criticism and more at rogue one. I know it's subjective and taste shouldn't be argued n all that but it's a boring film with characters that aren't there, the thinnest of storylines and it all hangs and depends on the spac battle and Vader scene to make you think it's wonderful.

It's really not. Bor gullet!!

Tony EH

Falthyron wrote: »

I think the word you are looking for is: 'safe'. It is a safe movie. Unfortunately, when there is a lot of expectation and hope, people choose to play it safe to make sure it doesn't become a disaster, i.e. like the prequels. TFA is good at a lot of things, but not spectacular or great at any one thing.

Oh, I know. That's why I used that exact word.

Tony EH wrote: »

But JJ was put in charge to reboot the series for Disney and he played it as safe as he could, just like he did with the 'Star Trek' reboot. So safe, he just copypasta'd the OT and repackaged it.

JJ reminds me of project managers who kick off meetings and then doesn't care what happens after that. Someone else is left moving things along.

I understand that the mouse didn't want to blow his billions, although can you really, truly, fail financially with Star Wars? Even the much maligned prequels made obscene money. Did they have to play it sooooo safe?

In fairness, they did take a lot of chances with 'Rogue One', I still can't believe they let Edwards kill everyone! Maybe some of that chutzpah will rub off on Rian Johnson's 'The Last Jedi'?

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

...but it's a boring film with characters that aren't there, the thinnest of storylines and it all hangs and depends on the spac battle and Vader scene to make you think it's wonderful.

I don't know how anyone could think that 'Rogue One' was "boring". Unless a more serious take on Star Wars equates boring. Also, there's plenty of character going on. It's more realistic, nuanced character. But at least they ring true, relatively speaking. I can buy into Jyn Erso more than supergirl Rey. Cassian Andor alone creates a whole new way of looking at the fighters in the Rebellion. They're not silly painted, ultra goody-two-shoes. They're actually warriors, who carry out questionable deeds to achieve their war aims. Chirrut and Baze are great secondary characters that serve a purpose connecting this film to the Jedi subtext that flows through every Star Wars film.

'Rogue One' has problems, sure. I still get a bit twisted mouthed when I see a 5ft slip of a girl beating the **** out of groups 6ft tall armed and armoured stormtroopers, or a blind man shooting down a TIE fighter. But, my inner nerd takes over and applies luck to Jyn and Chirrut using the Force, even if he's a layman monk.

david75 wrote: »

Bor gullet!!

I'm not sure what people's problem is with this thing. He's used to verify Bodhi's information. Personally, I would have preferred if Saw had used Dr. Ball, but whatever. He's not on screen long enough for me to give a crap and he doesn't impact the story in a negative way.

doubledown

I think this is the first time I won't be buying a Star Wars film on the day of its release. I honestly have zero desire to revisit this. But I'll be very interested to see if people reassess it now they have the chance to watch it in the comfort of their own home.

Zubeneschamali

doubledown wrote: »

But I'll be very interested to see if people reassess it now they have the chance to watch it in the comfort of their own home.

I've already re-assessed one thing: viewing the Rogue One end/EP IV start mashup linked earlier on a PC, fake Leia looks a lot less fake when she is not on a giant cinema screen. The same may be true for fake Vincent on TV vs. Cinema screen.

Tony EH

I was a lot more forgiving on the CGI or Tarkin and Leia when I watched it recently and actually thought some of the Tarkin work was damn near perfect.

My wife had no idea he was CGI, til I pointed it out to her.

It is over used though, there's no doubt about that. They got to cocky.

Plus, I was hard on the music when I saw it in the cinema, but the piece at the climax, from the star destroyer crashing into the shield gate facility to the deaths of Erso and Andor (and everyone near the Scariff base) was very well done indeed.

david75

My pal asked me a perfect question.
Which of these two feels more like Star Wars to you?
For me it's force awakens. Rogue one not at all.

But wait n see. The Obi Wan film will be basically be castaway and he'll be talking to Yoda instead of Wilson the ball

alchemist33

david75 wrote: »

My pal asked me a perfect question.
Which of these two feels more like Star Wars to you?
For me it's force awakens. Rogue one not at all.

And I don't think that's a bad thing. I agree with nearly everything Tony said about TFA in the last couple of pages. A second viewing only emphasizes all the rehashed ideas from ANH and I don't think anybody really needed that. With three films to go in the core story TFA should have forged a new path but it didn't, and now there's only two left. FWIW, I think Rogue One was far superior, even with its own weaknesses.

david75

I've an awful feeling Ep 8 is gonna leave us all bewildered and alienated by being too different from Star Wars
Least there'll be consensus on it:)

Tony EH

Well, obviously I'm going to say that 'Rogue One' feels more like Star Wars to me. Not that 'The Force Awakens' doesn't. But that's more like a fan fiction effort, with a central character that's ridiculously over powered, with none of that power being even remotely possible for her 20 years, her situation, her location or education. Its story line is also littered with just unbelievable writing that it borders on insulting. Finn (a 20+ year stormtrooper) losses his balls in a fight when he sees a comrade killed, but happily kills many more a few scenes later, yelping "woohoo" into the bargain. Rey is a ace pilot (among everything else), but does she choose pilot as a job? No, she remains scavenging for 1/2 and 1.4 portions of food off of Angkor Wat (or whatever he's called). :rolleyes: She's given all these skills by bad writing and we're expected to believe she wouldn't utilise them to better her life on Jakku?

That's just some of the dumb, in a sea of dumb.

'Rogue One', otoh, is so well done that it segues into the 1977 film with great ease. A difficult thing to do when the films are separated by nearly 40 years. Plus, even though some may find the characters "boring", because they aren't all cracking jokes or are overpower superheroes or whatever, they are grounded in a more lifelike reality, which makes them far more believable as the people they're supposed to be. 'Rogue One' also feels like it's actually taking place in the Star Wars universe, because it literally takes place a few days before 'Star Wars' and watched back to back, it flows into the original film so well, it's easy to piss away 4 hours in a binge.

'The Force Awakens' feels like someone trying to copy 'Star Wars', by remaking 'Star Wars' and adding a few little differences here and there. If I wanted that, I would have watched 'Battle Beyond the Stars' or 'Starcrash' or something like it. It feels like something Roger Corman would have done in the 70's if he'd had the shillings.

david75

You're saying that without any knowledge of her back story or opening into learning why she's that powerful which will be explained in 8. That's part of the story. To dismiss it with only the evidence at hand is missing the point. And the film is called the force awakens it didn't awaken in bb8 or Poe. It awoke in her. That's the entire point of the story. How she has it, Where she goes and what she does with it is up next.

Tony EH

I know who the force has "awakened" in. But, her use of it to move the plot along is awful. It's like when Finn says "We'll use the force..." (how I laughed :mad:) and Han says "that's not how the force works". That's almost a metaphor for how this character was written. Waiting to see what happens in 'The Last Jedi' doesn't eliminate the terrible writing that went into 'The Force Awakens' and none of that bad writing was unavoidable either. They just needed to smoke test their ideas.

Plus, she has nowhere to go as a character. She overcomes everything with great ease to the point that their is, literally, zero drama in her, already limited, story. This means that in order to make things more dramatic next time round she's going to have to face some challenges and if she can't use the force as a get out of jail card then, it's just going to cause more problems in logic for that character. They really blew it with Rey. Ridley tries her best, but she's just silly.

The only way I can see this working is if she's a fully trained Jedi, adept at mind control, force pulls, lightsabers and whatever you're having yourself, but she's had her mind wiped...

...and even that is a load of old pony.

Rey should have been what she started out as. A poor scavanger, who learns to use her latent powers through the training of Luke, not some superwoman. That'll probably be part of the next film, but it SHOULD have been in this one.

As it stands, she'll be going to Kerry to train Luke.

Personally, I'd have written the film following Luke who after the failure of Kylo, goes to Jakku with Han and Chewie to seek out Rey, an untrained force user he's somehow heard about. Partly to make amends for his mistakes and also to train her as an ally against Kylo and the Knights of Ren who's building an army to fight against the New Republic. Leia, warning of the threat, continually faces opposition from conservative elements within the New Republic bureaucracy, plus her own dramatic arc develops as it gets out that she's not only Darth Vader's daughter, but also the mother of this new Sith threat. She's forced to go and form a splinter group, sympathetic to her cause, enlisting Akbar, Mon Mothma, General Madine and whoever to be ready for the fight when it comes. It ends with an altercation of some sort with Luke, Rey, Chewie and Han. Han dies confronting Kylo. Luke, Rey and Chewie escape to consolidate.

The second film would deal with Rey's continued training, with her powers becoming truly strong and surprising even Luke. Also, she starts to feel the pull of the dark side with perhaps the spectre of Palpatine tempting her. It ends with her allegiance in the ballance creatng tension between her and Luke and Kylo Ren's attack on on the new republic, dealing a powerful blow, killing Leia and wiping out most of the Republic fleet etc.

The third film largely deals with the resistance, now controlled by Mon Mothma and Akbar against Kylo and the Knights of Ren culminating in a massive ground battle resulting in the death of Luke Skywalker and the defeat of Kylo Ren at the hands of Rey.

Wedwood

Regarding Rey's abilities, it's not much different to Luke in the original Star Wars.

After one lesson from Obi Wan, Luke was able to deflect laser beams with his lightsaber blindfolded and able to guide a single torpedo using just the Force into the Death Star and blowing it to smithereens.

One thing TFA did well was returning the lightsaber battles to the more basic and 'brutal' fighting style rather than the Prequels super-ninja stuff.

The Prequel Trilogy Jedi/Sith lightsaber antics often reminded me of that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the guy with the sword over elaborates and Indiana Jones rightly takes out his pistol and shoots him !!

david75

He's got you there Tony.

For a man fond of shouting Rey is a Mary Sue, there sure is a forgiving ah sure it's grand when it comes to the total lack of explaining of Luke's sudden abilities. Vast assumptions oh he trained and had time to develop and learn.
Following your own logic 'if I didn't see it on screen, how can I know that and enjoy it?'
Not just by you but everyone complaining about Rey in general.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

I know who the force has "awakened" in. But, her use of it to move the plot along is awful. It's like when Finn says "We'll use the force..." (how I laughed :mad:) and Han says "that's not how the force works". That's almost a metaphor for how this character was written. Waiting to see what happens in 'The Last Jedi' doesn't eliminate the terrible writing that went into 'The Force Awakens' and none of that bad writing was unavoidable either. They just needed to smoke test their ideas.

Plus, she has nowhere to go as a character. She overcomes everything with great ease to the point that their is, literally, zero drama in her, already limited, story. This means that in order to make things more dramatic next time round she's going to have to face some challenges and if she can't use the force as a get out of jail card then, it's just going to cause more problems in logic for that character. They really blew it with Rey. Ridley tries her best, but she's just silly.

The only way I can see this working is if she's a fully trained Jedi, adept at mind control, force pulls, lightsabers and whatever you're having yourself, but she's had her mind wiped...

...and even that is a load of old pony.

Rey should have been what she started out as. A poor scavanger, who learns to use her latent powers through the training of Luke, not some superwoman. That'll probably be part of the next film, but it SHOULD have been in this one.

As it stands, she'll be going to Kerry to train Luke.

Personally, I'd have written the film following Luke who after the failure of Kylo, goes to Jakku with Han and Chewie to seek out Rey, an untrained force user he's somehow heard about. Partly to make amends for his mistakes and also to train her as an ally against Kylo and the Knights of Ren who's building an army to fight against the New Republic. Leia, warning of the threat, continually faces opposition from conservative elements within the New Republic bureaucracy, plus her own dramatic arc develops as it gets out that she's not only Darth Vader's daughter, but also the mother of this new Sith threat. She's forced to go and form a splinter group, sympathetic to her cause, enlisting Akbar, Mon Mothma, General Madine and whoever to be ready for the fight when it comes. It ends with an altercation of some sort with Luke, Rey, Chewie and Han. Han dies confronting Kylo. Luke, Rey and Chewie escape to consolidate.

The second film would deal with Rey's continued training, with her powers becoming truly strong and surprising even Luke. Also, she starts to feel the pull of the dark side with perhaps the spectre of Palpatine tempting her. It ends with her allegiance in the ballance creatng tension between her and Luke and Kylo Ren's attack on on the new republic, dealing a powerful blow, killing Leia and wiping out most of the Republic fleet etc.

The third film largely deals with the resistance, now controlled by Mon Mothma and Akbar against Kylo and the Knights of Ren culminating in a massive ground battle resulting in the death of Luke Skywalker and the defeat of Kylo Ren at the hands of Rey.

I love most of that. But it's your head canon. Every single hardcore fan has their own head canon demand list here's what they should have done.
They aren't doing that. They're painting in broadest strokes possible to include the widest audience possible and that's all.
It would be great if daring minds got hold of Star Wars. It can't do that yet. Maybe in ten or fifteen years. Now though? No.

Reestablish the universe. Indoctrinate a whole new generation of kids, keep the established original fans happy and then expand.

Done done done done and done.

That's where we are.

david75

Imagine Vader was holding the door shut on top of holding the guy against the ceiling& blocking and killing everything at the same time? But did they do that?

No. They played safe and he only killed everyone. Boring.

This film sucks.