Star Wars: Rogue One *spoilers from post 1195*

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

You're forgetting though. They needed to make the world love Star Wars again. Not just the Star Wars fans. The last Star Wars they saw was awful. The prequels. How do you make people interested again? You give them what they know and remember and they love.
First act in a trilogy is nothing but set up and exposition anyways. Jj did a great job of installing his mystery box into that. Who is Rey? Where is luke? Who is snoke? What's going on in the galaxy?
ThTs all of really needed to do and it does it.

Wretched characters?? Cmon. That's not fair.

No they really didn't. They, and you apparently, should have credited the audience with a bit more intelligence. Its frankly exactly the sort of muddled thinking that led to us getting a puddin' bowled moppet Anakin in the Phantom Menace instead of the teenage one we should have got. There was no need to pander to the tween set to get bums on seats and sell merch . Lightsabers and spacebattles were enough of a draw in 77 and would have been enough of a draw in 99.

david75

PhiloCypher wrote: »

No they really didn't. They, and you apparently, should have credited the audience with a bit more intelligence. Its frankly exactly the sort of muddled thinking that led to us getting a puddin' bowled moppet Anakin in the Phantom Menace instead of the teenage one we should have got. There was no need to pander to the tween set to get bums on seats and sell merch . Lightsabers and spacebattles were enough of a draw in 77 and would have been enough of a draw in 99.

Awww you didn't get the Star Wars you wanted tailored personally to you. Poor Diddums.

david75

The sugar club are showing a double bill of force awakens and rogue one, this Sunday.
Panto outing. Boo brigade. Hiss brigade. Switch at half time

Tony EH

Wedwood wrote: »

Regarding Rey's abilities, it's not much different to Luke in the original Star Wars.

It's very different. Luke had guidance from a mentor who'd been watching over him since he was born. Rey woke up that morning, found out about the force and started doing Jedi mind tricks.

Wedwood wrote: »

After one lesson from Obi Wan, Luke was able to deflect laser beams with his lightsaber blindfolded and able to guide a single torpedo using just the Force into the Death Star and blowing it to smithereens.

Good against remotes is one thing, good against the living, that's something else. Luke follows Ben's instructions and deflects a couple of blaster shots. He hits a target that's not much better than the wamp rats he targets back home. Gold Leader nearly blew up the Death Star before him.

Rey does a Jedi mind trick, having never even known WTF a Jedi mind trick was.

There's no real comparison.

If Rey truly reflected Luke's very limited abilities in 'Star Wars', there wouldn't be an issue.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

He's got you there Tony.

I don't think so.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

They aren't doing that. They're painting in broadest strokes possible to include the widest audience possible and that's all.

Which is why I am unhappy with the result of 'The Force Awakens'.

'Rogue One' taught me that all is not lost with Disney's handling of Star Wars and who knows, 'The Last Jedi' could be brilliant and I could be singing a great tune about it this time next year.

But that still won't change the fact that 'The Force Awakens' largely sucks.

Conall Cernach

Tony EH wrote: »

It's very different. Luke had guidance from a mentor who'd been watching over him since he was born. Rey woke up that morning, found out about the force and started doing Jedi mind tricks.



Good against remotes is one thing, good against the living, that's something else. Luke follows Ben's instructions and deflects a couple of blaster shots. He hits a target that's not much better than the wamp rats he targets back home. Gold Leader nearly blew up the Death Star before him.

Rey does a Jedi mind trick, having never even known WTF a Jedi mind trick was.

There's no real comparison.

If Rey truly reflected Luke's very limited abilities in 'Star Wars', there wouldn't be an issue.

If it does turn out that Rey was just somehow able to use the Force so easily I will be disappointed. I hope it is eventually explained that she was a former padawan and her touching of the lightsabre unlocked her abilities and memories or something like that. There is certainly some mystery about her. Luke did not have the same mystery after Star Wars, his character could just have been a farm boy who had a bit of instruction from an old Jedi but it turned out in the subsequent films that he was much more than that. We have just been shown that there is some mystery surrounding Rey's background and she can also do Force tricks. It's not a huge leap to suggest that her background and the Force tricks are related.

Tony EH

Conall Cernach wrote: »

If it does turn out that Rey was just somehow able to use the Force so easily I will be disappointed. I hope it is eventually explained that she was a former padawan and her touching of the lightsabre unlocked her abilities and memories or something like that. There is certainly some mystery about her. Luke did not have the same mystery after Star Wars, his character could just have been a farm boy who had a bit of instruction from an old Jedi but it turned out in the subsequent films that he was much more than that. We have just been shown that there is some mystery surrounding Rey's background and she can also do Force tricks. It's not a huge leap to suggest that her background and the Force tricks are related.

Perhaps we'll get some more establishing info in the next film.

However, it still doesn't eliminate the bad writing in TFA. Rey being a super powerful Jedi is fine. However, she should have some kind of journey to get there. In TFA she doesn't. She's just instant Jedi, with the execution of powers she didn't know about. It stretches credibility and suspension of disbelief in that film way beyond breaking point.

To ease that, they could have just cut a few lines and added an interest in the Jedi and the force to Rey's existence on Jakku. Instead of having her dick about with XWing pilot helmets and just waiting around for 15 years for a family to return, they could have written her as a student of the ancient Jedi church and the exploits of famous Jedi, like Luke Skywalker. This could easily have been shown in her AT AT home scenes. They could also have established her as a trainee force user, but not very good or undisciplined at that point. Show her trying to telekinetically move objects, but failing and becoming frustrated with her inability to harness her latent talent.

The should have never given her the lines about thinking that the Jedi and Skywalker was a myth. That's just unbelievably dumb and it causes serious logic problems with her suddenly using Jedi abilities out of nowhere, or if and when in later films it turns out that she was a former trainee. Those bloody lines are awful.

Rey, as written for 'The Force Awakens' is an terrible character. But, there's certainly potential there. It's just this particular film missed the boat.

robinph

Tony EH wrote: »

Those bloody lines are awful.

It is up to standard for a Star Wars film then.

Tony EH

robinph wrote: »

It is up to standard for a Star Wars film then.

TBH, I think 'The Force Awakens' takes Star Wars dialogue to an even worse level.

johnny_ultimate

david75 wrote: »

Awww you didn't get the Star Wars you wanted tailored personally to you. Poor Diddums.

Mod note: Not doing yourself any favours David with silly posts like this. Please keep it civil.

TheDoc

Just watched again last night, second time seeing it since the first in the cinema. Still blown away with it, still think its fantastic. Probably the best in the entire franchise for me

Conall Cernach

Tony EH wrote: »

Rey, as written for 'The Force Awakens' is an terrible character. But, there's certainly potential there. It's just this particular film missed the boat.

I thought Rey was the best of the new characters from The Force Awakens. Poe's all-American, Mr. Perfecto was boring and Finn's brain washed murder machine turned wise cracking side kick routine was off. Aside from Kylo Ren the New Order guys had very little to do or say. Even Han Solo wasn't up to much in TFA. One thing that got me was that he's known Chewie for 40 odd years and only now does he become impressed with the crossbow.

david75

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Mod note: Not doing yourself any favours David with silly posts like this. Please keep it civil.

Read his post again. 'People like me'??? I'm a Star Wars fan. I didn't elect trump ffs haha

david75

This is too funny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv_hGITmNuo

Tony EH

Hilarious. :pac:

I don't need a new cut of TFA after all.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Hilarious. :pac:

I don't need a new cut of TFA after all.

And mark Hamill voiced Han in it

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

Read his post again. 'People like me'??? I'm a Star Wars fan. I didn't elect trump ffs haha

Ah heyor David how about not putting words in my mouth. I merely said "they and you could do with crediting people with a bit more intelligence" which is a world of a difference from a disdainful "people like you" and you know it. Its Star Wars, Cluster**** that the prequels were, we were/are always going to come crawling back and we didn't need to be spoonfed remixed scenes from the original trilogy like we were 12 to go all ....


JJ/Disney - Look its a Death star type thing , remember the first film you loved so much , this is like that don't you see .

JJ/Disney - look its a trench run deathstar core scene , remember those exciting scenes from those films you loved so much , this film is in the same vain but with bigger splosions please forget those nasty prequels and give us your money

david75

Rogue One has a motley crew out to help destroy the Death Star.

I'm sure I've seen this film before. There's definitely a pattern here.

david75

david75 wrote: »

Rogue One has a motley crew out to help destroy the Death Star.

I'm sure I've seen this film before. There's definitely a pattern here.

And has a female lead with no interest in taking part and who nobody trusts but suddenly(literally one scene later) is the glorious leader of the crew leading the mission. Rey lite*

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

Rogue One has a motley crew out to help destroy the Death Star.

I'm sure I've seen this film before. There's definitely a pattern here.

I don't think its lost on anyone that they seem to have a hard on for super weapons David, of the 8 films so far, 4 have featured a death star in some stage of construction. One can argue the toss as to whether a transitionary film like Rogue one was really the best use of these non saga anthology films, but once they had decided on the story behind stealing the plans, the DeathStar was always going to feature. Force Awakens on the other hand unburdened by not being set in the past or having to follow any sort of canon, could have broken the mould and IDK ... come up with a superweapon that wasn't spherical or a plot that didn't rely on one and all.

david75

PhiloCypher wrote: »

I don't think its lost on anyone that they seem to have a hard on for super weapons David, of the 8 films so far, 4 have featured a death star in some stage of construction. One can argue the toss as to whether a transitionary film like Rogue one was really the best use of these non saga anthology films, but once they had decided on the story behind stealing the plans, the DeathStar was always going to feature. Force Awakens on the other hand unburdened by not being set in the past or having to follow any sort of canon, could have broken the mould and IDK ... come up with a superweapon that wasn't spherical or a plot that didn't rely on one and all.

Speaking of having a hard on for super weapons. Just Trump watching rogue one.
Nothing to see here.
https://twitter.com/makingstarwars/status/850080456536080384

david75

PhiloCypher wrote: »

I don't think its lost on anyone that they seem to have a hard on for super weapons David, of the 8 films so far, 4 have featured a death star in some stage of construction. One can argue the toss as to whether a transitionary film like Rogue one was really the best use of these non saga anthology films, but once they had decided on the story behind stealing the plans, the DeathStar was always going to feature. Force Awakens on the other hand unburdened by not being set in the past or having to follow any sort of canon, could have broken the mould and IDK ... come up with a superweapon that wasn't spherical or a plot that didn't rely on one and all.

It's my one gripe about that film. A super weapon of any shape or size shouldn't have been the thing no matter what. Especially one so exponentially bigger yet so easily disposed of. Far easier than it's ancestor(s).
Same complaint can be levied at return of the Jedi. It's basically the same framework as a new hope in that regard but ramped up to sell toys.

But I'll Forgive it as will most cos the last 45 minutes and intercutting between endor and luke/Vader/emperor and the still amazing space battle is unimpeachable as cinema goes in terms of editing and pacing and storytelling.

We can never be objective on any of the OT films completely on their own without their siblings. And we shouldn't. We shouldn't crap on a first act without having seen what is to follow.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Rogue One has a motley crew out to help destroy the Death Star.

I'm sure I've seen this film before. There's definitely a pattern here.

Ummm...That's because it's, literally, the DS-1. If they're going to make a film about stealing the Death Star plans that lead up to the destruction of that particular super weapon, then it's going to feature that weapon.

'The Force Awakens' on the other hand absolutely did not nead to go near anything of that nature at all. Not at all.

And even if they wanted another super weapon, why couldn't they have come up with something different? Say kylo Ren found some ancient Sith weapon that could destroy worlds? Say it was soooo destructive, that even the Sith refused to use. Kylo finds the weapon in some ancient Sith temple near the beginning and uses it to fcuk up people near the end. It makes Kylo Ren a truly dangerous opponent and an absolute nutter that even the Sith are like "That bloke's a nutter".

No, let's have Death Star 2.0. :rolleyes: Cos that's what the better film did.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Ummm...That's because it's, literally, the DS-1. If they're going to make a film about stealing the Death Star plans that lead up to the destruction of that particular super weapon, then it's going to feature that weapon.

'The Force Awakens' on the other hand absolutely did not nead to go near anything of that nature at all. Not at all.

And even if they wanted another super weapon, why couldn't they have come up with something different? Say kylo Ren found some ancient Sith weapon that could destroy worlds? Say it was soooo destructive, that even the Sith refused to use. Kylo finds the weapon in some ancient Sith temple near the beginning and uses it to fcuk up people near the end. It makes Kylo Ren a truly dangerous opponent and an absolute nutter that even the Sith are like "That bloke's a nutter".

No, let's have Death Star 2.0. :rolleyes: Cos that's what the better film did.

You're wide of my point here Tony.

You're focusing on plot devices and wretched characters. I was talking about its Star Wars once again repeating itself.

That's what it does. And it sometimes wins and it sometimes fails. This trilogy will do the same thing again.

david75

Though it is a tickle that you've been accusing force awakens of being an unoriginal repeat. With the same argument. Repeatedly. For well over a year now.
Step away from the Star war Tony

Tony EH

Because it's an incredibly unoriginal film David. In every aspect.

'Rogue One' may feature the Death Star from Star Wars, but it would, wouldn't it?

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

Though it is a tickle that you've been accusing force awakens of being an unoriginal repeat. With the same argument. Repeatedly. For well over a year now.
Step away from the Star war Tony

He doesn't make these arguments in a vaccuum . If you weren't making similarly repetitive defences of Force Awakens he wouldn't be making repetitive counter arguments. And being that you are by and large the one who bumps these threads , you are likely the one who renews the cycle more often then not.

fluke

In fairness David, you're arguments are patronising and bordering on being nasty.

FWIW I think I preferred Rogue One because at least it felt like it was trying to do something different. As much as I loved the spectacle of TFA, it's more cookie-cutter Star Wars, than Rogue One, and certainly more so than say RoTJ.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Because it's an incredibly unoriginal film David. In every aspect.

'Rogue One' may feature the Death Star from Star Wars, but it would, wouldn't it?

You'd find a lot of value in this. Alastair Stephens review of the force awakens. He goes in totally fair and objective with no lights in his eyes either way.
He does say ''I hate it cos it's not perfect'' is the worst kind of lazy internet bullish!t''
But he does paint it totally fairly and objectively. And I'm saying that as a fan of the film. And has a far better understanding of the story beats and structure in this story and in cinema than you or I.
Plus he's super smart and has the coolest voice and knows what he's talking about.
Have a listen and come back to me. His rogue one review is a thing to behold.
https://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/story-and-star-wars/id1041484891?mt=2&i=1000359791195