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Star Wars: Rogue One *spoilers from post 1195*

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    #1982
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    fluke wrote: »
    In fairness David, you're arguments are patronising and bordering on being nasty.

    FWIW I think I preferred Rogue One because at least it felt like it was trying to do something different. As much as I loved the spectacle of TFA, it's more cookie-cutter Star Wars, than Rogue One, and certainly more so than say RoTJ.

    Tony I have had the same debate since force awakens came out and never once slagged each other off or belittled each other and I always love reading what he has to say. On this and other stuff. Fairly sure I've never even spoken to you so if you feel you're being patronised I'm not sure where that's coming from? Certainly not me or any intention.
    There's probably a block function in here somewhere if you wanna use that?


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    #1983
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    PhiloCypher wrote: »
    He doesn't make these arguments in a vaccuum . If you weren't making similarly repetitive defences of Force Awakens he wouldn't be making repetitive counter arguments. And being that you are by and large the one who bumps these threads , you are likely the one who renews the cycle more often then not.

    There's usually some point mostly news related to the posts and relevant to the thread. We've three new Star Wars films coming and one just got released for home viewing. These threads will reappear. Sorry if that's a problem.


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    #1984
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Because it's an incredibly unoriginal film David. In every aspect.

    'Rogue One' may feature the Death Star from Star Wars, but it would, wouldn't it?


    Remember that scene in the trailer?

    Mon mothma tells Jyn they've recover a secret transmission from her father.



    Why did they change that to show Saw Gerrara?

    It makes no sense.

    She's in the rebel base and she's all **** this.

    Thats the moment you show her that transmission.

    Instead they swapped it out to some irrelevant scene *after she's agreed to join the mission*.

    She has no impetus or reason or agency to join them at that point. In fact she acts against it.

    It's a total nonsensical moment at the crux of the main characters arc.

    It's stupid. Among many other stupid moments in this film.
    That's my biggest problem with this film.

    Which is worse. Copying a great story (by your lights?) or just stupid thoughtless storytelling?


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    #1985
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,285 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    david75 wrote: »
    You'd find a lot of value in this. Alastair Stephens review of the force awakens. He goes in totally fair and objective with no lights in his eyes either way.
    He does say ''I hate it cos it's not perfect'' is the worst kind of lazy internet bullish!t''
    But he does paint it totally fairly and objectively. And I'm saying that as a fan of the film. And has a far better understanding of the story beats and structure in this story and in cinema than you or I.
    Plus he's super smart and has the coolest voice and knows what he's talking about.
    Have a listen and come back to me. His rogue one review is a thing to behold.
    https://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/story-and-star-wars/id1041484891?mt=2&i=1000359791195

    I would absolutely agree with that sentiment. One of the worst things about internet "criticism" is the binary response from certain quarters. Just take a look at some Amazon reviews (at your peril of course). One * or five * reviews I'll usually avoid, as they're often the product of ill consideration and it's the same elsewhere.

    For the record, 'The Force Awakens' for me hovers around a 5/10. It's appalingly average. Lamentably so, as it's a Star Wars film and some parts/writing/characters are simply awful. It's better than the dross of the prequels, but a missed oportunity. In any case, sure you all know this by now.

    At present, the best thing about 'The Force Awakens' is that it presents an interesting case study on the state of the modern blockbuster and it isn't pretty. This film pretty much mirrors what is going on with "big" cinema at the moment. It's drenched in remakes, reboots and reimaginings, with very little in the way of originality getting through. Sure, a Star Wars film doesn't have to be original in the sense that it has to completely new in every aspect. But when a producer decides to copy major elements from better films in the series it screams lazy writing, rather than a desire to breed familiarity. 'The Force Awakens' exhibits that in spades.

    I would disagree with some things that this reviewer says and most of his podcast contains info that isn't new or a take on the film that hasn't been espoused by others. I don't think it's "the real deal" at all. It think it's a "rehash". Riffing off of the much better series that came before. He says that it feels "authentic". It doesn't, that's part of the problem. It feels like fan fiction, largely because it is using what came before as a template - but way, way, too closely. The accusations of "remake" are correct. It feels like a remake in the fashion of 'Evil Dead II' in that presents itself as a sequel, but it really is just retreading what came before and people are rightly unhappy with the result. The entire thing is memberberry writ large.

    He's correct in saying that 'The Force Awakens' isn't "the same, just to be the same". However, it's the same because Disney were afraid to lose out on their investment. The people claiming "remake", "reboot" or whatever aren't saying that 'The Force Awakens' follows Star Wars beat for beat. What they (and I) are saying is that it was a fearful project based on a desire not to lose money and therefore repeated well trodden ground already established in the original trilogy.

    His take on Finn is pretty laughable too. Finn's first response is not to "flee" because he doesn't like killing (all of a sudden, despite being in the First Order for 20+ years). His first response is killing his fellow Stormtroopers, who according to a - frankly stupid - plot device are all indoctrinated babies/children like him, not to mention his former comrades. A point which Stephens has missed completely.

    His musings on Solo miss all of the problems with how that character is portrayed in the film too. Solo reverting back to a smuggler is simply there because that's what he was in the 1977 'Star Wars'. There's absolutely no other reason for that to be. A man who fought as a GENERAL in the rebellion that saw the defeat of a galaxy wide Empire, we are to believe has reverted back to a life of petty crime? What? That's awful storytelling and it's a terrible dagger in the back of what was once (arguably) the greatest Star Wars character to grace the screen, but the podcaster neglects to even go there.

    In any case, I kind of dislike these podcasts, where one person gives their opinions in a singularity and none of these opinions are challenged in any way. It's notable that there's no comments section on his storywonk blog too. Plus for 50 minutes, there's very little actual critical content in that podcast and an awful lot of waffle TBH. He's simply going over what everyone can see on the screen, but neglecting to actually review what's happening. It's really only the last 10 minutes or so in which he offers any real observation of a critical nature and he seems almost afraid to go there.

    At the end, he just reinforces my own opinion that 'The Force Awakens' gets a pass from far, far, too many people simply becasue it wasn't as bad as the prequels.


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    #1986
    Wedwood
    Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Wedwood


    The problem Star Wars movies encounter is over scrutiny. What starts off as a reasonably entertaining movie gets analysed to death untlil all of the joy is taken away and all you're left with is moaning about every last detail.

    What's worse is this new form of movie moaning encourages herd mentality and you end up convincing people who originally enjoyed the movie to end up finding ways to dislike it.

    If you liked the movie when you saw it in the cinema, you like the movie. If you subsequently dislike the movie, have a think about why.

    Force Awakens is a triumphant return to form that got the balance right between fan servicing and moving forward. Rogue One did likewise.


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    #1987
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,285 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    david75 wrote: »
    Remember that scene in the trailer?

    First of all, I don't care about trailers. They're a device designed simply to get people interested in a product. TBH, I try to avoid them as these days they give too much of the film away and they're nearly always the same.
    david75 wrote: »
    Mon mothma tells Jyn they've recover a secret transmission from her father.

    Why did they change that to show Saw Gerrara?

    It makes no sense.

    She's in the rebel base and she's all **** this.

    Thats the moment you show her that transmission.

    Instead they swapped it out to some irrelevant scene *after she's agreed to join the mission*.

    She has no impetus or reason or agency to join them at that point. In fact she acts against it.

    It's a total nonsensical moment at the crux of the main characters arc.

    It's stupid. Among many other stupid moments in this film.
    That's my biggest problem with this film.

    This isn't even a problem. Jyn was with Saw's terrorist organisation as a child soldier since her mother was killed and her father was taken back to his former Empire position. At some point she's anandoned by that same organisation and she's had to survive on her own. She has no alligence to anyone, doesn't know if Galen is alive and couldn't care less about the struggle as all it's brought her is "pain".

    Her epiphany comes from her viewing of her fathers message about the Death Star and what it means to the state of the galaxy. It rekindles a lot of memories and reinvigorates her once rebellious nature. Subsequently, her first hand witnessing of the Death Star's destruction of Jedha and her failure to rescue her father strengthen her resolve even more.

    Up until that point, she's there's your message, good luck, I'm off cos you're a dick Gerrera for abandoning me and as long as I keep ignoring the Empire's tighening grip, I'll be grand. But she's knows that this is a lie she's telling herself and after her emotional reconnection with her father through the hologram message (superbly played by Felicity Jones I may add), Jedha and Galen's death, she lets go of this lie and once again faces up to the real threat that the Empire presents, made even worse by their new and terrifying super weapon. In addition, she wants to honour her fathers own part that he played in sabotaging it and once her mission to rescue him has failed, that desire to see her part in destroying it becomes stronger.

    I fail to understand what problem anybody could have with Jyn Erso's character in that respect or her coming around to the threat that the Death Star represents. In fact, she is a fantastic and tragic character grounded in a reality that is completely absent from her "saga sister", Rey, and she becomes a somewhat reluctant hero due to the nature of the events and the people that surround her and how they inform her actions.
    david75 wrote: »
    Which is worse. Copying a great story (by your lights?) or just stupid thoughtless storytelling?

    If you think 'Rogue One' was "thoughtless", then you watched a different film than I did.


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    #1988
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,285 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Wedwood wrote: »

    If you liked the movie when you saw it in the cinema, you like the movie. If you subsequently dislike the movie, have a think about why.

    What if you didn't like it when you saw it in the cinema, because its shortcomings had a negative impact on your enjoyment?

    Why are some people so adverse to criticism of something?


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    #1989
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Tony EH wrote: »
    First of all, I don't care about trailers.

    Quite a lot of the complaints I've seen about Rogue One are based on the trailers. I knew I would see it at the cinema, so I avoided the trailers and all discussion of them.

    Folks may be right, a movie that included the bits from the trailers might have been better.

    Or worse - who knows, we will never see it.


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    #1990
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Tony EH wrote: »
    What if you didn't like it when you saw it in the cinema, because its shortcomings had a negative impact on your enjoyment?=

    That'd be most movies, to be honest. It's why I only go a few times a year.


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    #1991
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I would absolutely agree with that sentiment. One of the worst things about internet "criticism" is the binary response from certain quarters. Just take a look at some Amazon reviews (at your peril of course). One * or five * reviews I'll usually avoid, as they're often the product of ill consideration and it's the same elsewhere.

    For the record, 'The Force Awakens' for me hovers around a 5/10. It's appalingly average. Lamentably so, as it's a Star Wars film and some parts/writing/characters are simply awful. It's better than the dross of the prequels, but a missed oportunity. In any case, sure you all know this by now.

    At present, the best thing about 'The Force Awakens' is that it presents an interesting case study on the state of the modern blockbuster and it isn't pretty. This film pretty much mirrors what is going on with "big" cinema at the moment. It's drenched in remakes, reboots and reimaginings, with very little in the way of originality getting through. Sure, a Star Wars film doesn't have to be original in the sense that it has to completely new in every aspect. But when a producer decides to copy major elements from better films in the series it screams lazy writing, rather than a desire to breed familiarity. 'The Force Awakens' exhibits that in spades.

    I would disagree with some things that this reviewer says and most of his podcast contains info that isn't new or a take on the film that hasn't been espoused by others. I don't think it's "the real deal" at all. It think it's a "rehash". Riffing off of the much better series that came before. He says that it feels "authentic". It doesn't, that's part of the problem. It feels like fan fiction, largely because it is using what came before as a template - but way, way, too closely. The accusations of "remake" are correct. It feels like a remake in the fashion of 'Evil Dead II' in that presents itself as a sequel, but it really is just retreading what came before and people are rightly unhappy with the result. The entire thing is memberberry writ large.

    He's correct in saying that 'The Force Awakens' isn't "the same, just to be the same". However, it's the same because Disney were afraid to lose out on their investment. The people claiming "remake", "reboot" or whatever aren't saying that 'The Force Awakens' follows Star Wars beat for beat. What they (and I) are saying is that it was a fearful project based on a desire not to lose money and therefore repeated well trodden ground already established in the original trilogy.

    His take on Finn is pretty laughable too. Finn's first response is not to "flee" because he doesn't like killing (all of a sudden, despite being in the First Order for 20+ years). His first response is killing his fellow Stormtroopers, who according to a - frankly stupid - plot device are all indoctrinated babies/children like him, not to mention his former comrades. A point which Stephens has missed completely.

    His musings on Solo miss all of the problems with how that character is portrayed in the film too. Solo reverting back to a smuggler is simply there because that's what he was in the 1977 'Star Wars'. There's absolutely no other reason for that to be. A man who fought as a GENERAL in the rebellion that saw the defeat of a galaxy wide Empire, we are to believe has reverted back to a life of petty crime? What? That's awful storytelling and it's a terrible dagger in the back of what was once (arguably) the greatest Star Wars character to grace the screen, but the podcaster neglects to even go there.

    In any case, I kind of dislike these podcasts, where one person gives their opinions in a singularity and none of these opinions are challenged in any way. It's notable that there's no comments section on his storywonk blog too. Plus for 50 minutes, there's very little actual critical content in that podcast and an awful lot of waffle TBH. He's simply going over what everyone can see on the screen, but neglecting to actually review what's happening. It's really only the last 10 minutes or so in which he offers any real observation of a critical nature and he seems almost afraid to go there.

    At the end, he just reinforces my own opinion that 'The Force Awakens' gets a pass from far, far, too many people simply becasue it wasn't as bad as the prequels.



    That was awesome. Loved it. Thank you.

    Not even kidding. I have Tickets to see a double bill of force awakens and rogue one this Sunday in sugar club. Wanna come with? Be deadly to watch em live with you in real time.


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    #1992
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,285 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    That'd be most movies, to be honest. It's why I only go a few times a year.

    With the cost of ticket prices and the general quality of the output, I can't say I blame you.


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    #1993
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,285 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    david75 wrote: »
    That was awesome. Loved it. Thank you.

    Not even kidding. I have Tickets to see a double bill of force awakens and rogue one this Sunday in sugar club. Wanna come with? Be deadly to watch em live with you in real time.

    Well thanks, but I can't. But enjoy anyway.

    Thing is, wouldn't it have been a better two parter if it was 'Rogue One' followed by 'Star Wars'?

    Mind you it would probably be the speical edition 'Star Wars'. :mad:

    Come on Disney and release blu's of the original unabused versions please. I thought that seeing it's the 40th anniversary year that that would have occurred.


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    #1994
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Well thanks, but I can't. But enjoy anyway.

    Thing is, wouldn't it have been a better two parter if it was 'Rogue One' followed by 'Star Wars'?

    Mind you it would probably be the speical edition 'Star Wars'. :mad:

    Come on Disney and release blu's of the original unabused versions please. I thought that seeing it's the 40th anniversary year that that would have occurred.


    It'll happen. Thing is. If you watch it in 4K? There's a lot of things that will become glaringly obvious. The transparency issue in plates as models move in camera plus a lot and I mean a whole lot of shoddily done sets and effects.
    I think they should redo all the effects on the special edition and cut out the extra scenes to take it back to the original edit. It's a legal swamp though about who owns the prints etc.


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    #1995
    PhiloCypher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭PhiloCypher


    david75 wrote: »
    There's usually some point mostly news related to the posts and relevant to the thread. We've three new Star Wars films coming and one just got released for home viewing. These threads will reappear. Sorry if that's a problem.

    As before David, you are taking me up wrong , I wasn't making a jab at how regularly you post , I was merely tickled by your light hearted jab at Tony's repetitious use of the same arguments when they are generally instigated by your repetitious use of the same defenses (ie. That they had to make it overly familiar because ...). My point being there's two of you in it . That's all.


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    #1996
    PhiloCypher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭PhiloCypher


    Wedwood wrote: »
    The problem Star Wars movies encounter is over scrutiny. What starts off as a reasonably entertaining movie gets analysed to death untlil all of the joy is taken away and all you're left with is moaning about every last detail.

    What's worse is this new form of movie moaning encourages herd mentality and you end up convincing people who originally enjoyed the movie to end up finding ways to dislike it.

    If you liked the movie when you saw it in the cinema, you like the movie. If you subsequently dislike the movie, have a think about why.

    Force Awakens is a triumphant return to form that got the balance right between fan servicing and moving forward. Rogue One did likewise.

    Then I assume it follows that if I didn't like a movie when I first watched it(maybe I wasn't in the mood , certain details went over my Head) but upon reading a thoughtful review revisited it and loved it , then I'm just easily led and my opinion would be invalid ?

    Snap opinions are the only ones that matter ?


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    #1997
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    You can dislike a film or an album for years then one day it suddenly just clicks for you. Happens me all the time. Don't think it's ever gone the other way where I find myself going yknow what? That actually wasn't that good.

    That said. There are a load of films that are spectacular in the cinema then just don't stand up at all when you see them at home.
    Looking at you avatar


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    #1998
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,285 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Ummm...I've had both.


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    #1999
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Ummm...I've had both.

    Of course you have ye flaky f*cker ;)

    *im told the godfather films are amazing for example. I watched em and just went yeah that's crap. Sometimes it's just not for you.


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    #2000
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,285 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Watch em again


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    #2001
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    So. I just watched the blu-ray. Princent Vice and Farrie Cisher are rubbish on the small screen, too.

    Krennic is entirely ineffectual - my son was saying he's a terrible villain, and I was saying no, Tarkin and Vader are the villains, Krennic is just an empire official.

    THEN WHY ARE WE SEEING HIM MONOLOGUE???

    My son is not wrong - you could cut the opener completely, the same info is in a dream Jen has later. Start with Jen getting bust out of jail - the original started in the middle of the action, this one starts too slowly.

    Excellent finish. though.


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    #2002
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    I will! Not now though.


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    #2003
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,104 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    Zubeneschamali wrote:
    So. I just watched the blu-ray. Princent Vice and Farrie Cisher are rubbish on the small screen, too.

    Peter Cushing


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    #2004
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Technocentral wrote: »
    Peter Cushing

    That's no Moff!


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    #2005
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    surprised thats its available as a dvd rental, when the force awakens wasn't


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    #2006
    AMKC
    Registered Users Posts: 16,058 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    fryup wrote: »
    surprised thats its available as a dvd rental, when the force awakens wasn't


    I don,t think there is places left in the country that rent out dvd,s anymore. So why do you think this is available to rent? It is for sale in the shops on dvd and blu-ray but I don,t know if you can rent it anywhere.
    The blu-ray looks like a good buy plenty of extra,s on it.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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    #2007
    spacecoyote
    Registered Users Posts: 8,552 ✭✭✭spacecoyote


    AMKC wrote: »
    I don,t think there is places left in the country that rent out dvd,s anymore. So why do you think this is available to rent? It is for sale in the shops on dvd and blu-ray but I don,t know if you can rent it anywhere.
    The blu-ray looks like a good buy plenty of extra,s on it.

    There are xtravision rental kiosks in numerous shopping centres in dublin. They're fully automated


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    #2008
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Finally saw this
    Complete blown away
    Dare I say the best one yet


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    #2009
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,404 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    So, millions killed in Episodes IV and VI, but this is the darker film. :)


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    #2010
    Rubber_Soul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭Rubber_Soul


    Victor wrote: »
    So, millions killed in Episodes IV and VI, but this is the darker film. :)

    Darker =/= Higher body count.


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    #2011
    DrWu
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭DrWu


    Any thoughts on The Last Jedi teaser? Looks to me like it's giving the fans the absolute minimum amount of info which is fine by me. I have high hopes for this one. Loved TFA when I saw it in the cinema but a little less so with the passage of time. I find the direction really intrudes on the film at times - far too many cuts, far too many close ups and mid shots. Looking fwd to what Johnson will do with this one...


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