Star Wars: Rogue One *spoilers from post 1195*

pixelburp

DrWu wrote: »

Any thoughts on The Last Jedi teaser? Looks to me like it's giving the fans the absolute minimum amount of info which is fine by me. I have high hopes for this one. Loved TFA when I saw it in the cinema but a little less so with the passage of time. I find the direction really intrudes on the film at times - far too many cuts, far too many close ups and mid shots. Looking fwd to what Johnson will do with this one...

Plenty of thoughts and chat in the dedicated thread, only a few threads below this one

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057544429

david75

The Waterford whispers lads have a brilliant article up about it

david75

Hey Tony. You'll really enjoy this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsIQa7sH5_Y

DrWu

Disney are set to announce the last Spin-off movie in July. An Obi Wan movie looks likely, which will fill in some of the timeline between Episode 3 and Rogue One.

david75

DrWu wrote: »

Disney are set to announce the last Spin-off movie in July. An Obi Wan movie looks likely, which will fill in some of the timeline between Episode 3 and Rogue One.

Let's hope it's Obi Wan. Heavily rumoured to be a bounty hunter ensemble film as well.
No interest in that.
I want Obi Wan

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Hey Tony. You'll really enjoy this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsIQa7sH5_Y

Mmmm...I don't know. Within the first 4 minutes, I was already in disagreement with him.

First of all, "Show, don't tell" is merely a guideline. Not something written in stone that can apply to every single film. Those kind of filmschool mantras are grand in principle, but fall apart quickly in real life. Secondly, "Show, don't tell" works fine when your film has the running time to show everything they need to show. But, in reality, few films stick to that principle, either in part or whole.

The problem with his points are the common ones leveled at each protagonist in the new Star Wars films. People feel they know Rey better than they know Jyn. The reality is, they don't.

This is because they've largely made up what they know in their heads about Rey and don't like what they've seen or been told about Jyn.

We know nothing about Rey, other than she's somehow survived on a desert planet for over a decade and she's basically a tinker that sees her future in the old woman scrubbing crap next to her. She's pretty, decent and likeable.

That's all we know about her. The rest, people have made up in their own minds, because there isn't enough time to explain or show anything else and there are also 2 other films coming that everyone hopes will answer some questions.

We know MUCH more about Jyn because we have been both shown and told with exposition how she's arrived at the point in her life that she has, why she's jaded and cynical and why she's relatively cold. This was the only way we were going to understand her as an audience, otherwise 'Rogue One' would have been 4 hours long. There simply was not enough time to show everything to do with Jyn. But that's an issue with running time, not character or script.

Also, not every protagonist has to CAUSE things to happen. That's just silly and the vast majority of film characters react to the events presented to them in the story. Brody doesn't cause the events in 'Jaws'. Max gets carried along with the stories in the 'Mad Max' films. But both remain great characters and there are numerous examples where the "hero" of the piece is part of the story and not driving it.

Frankly, there's FAR, FAR too much filmschool bullshit going on in amateur criticism these days. People hear handy catchphrases like "character arc" and whatnot and suddenly they're qualified to critique a film. Whilst these markers are good, as thin guidelines, they are not the keystones to great films and if one of these pillars are missing, it doesn't mean that a film is bad.

In the end, to me, I understand Jyn Erso better, because I think she's a more complete character. She's also a far more realistic character, albeit in a fantasy universe. I can buy her child soldier past. I certainly buy into her cynicism, I can understand that she's seen some shit during her time with Saw and I get her belief that she's merely a small fish in a pond she doesn't really have any influence over and I can buy into the events that carry her in 'Rogue One'.

On the other hand, I still know nothing about Rey, other than she has skills, knowledge and abilities that are far beyond what her years, environment, education and story should allow. If anything, 'The Force Awakens' needed to show and tell MUCH more about Rey than it did.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Mmmm...I don't know. Within the first 4 minutes, I was already in disagreement with him.

First of all, "Show, don't tell" is merely a guideline. Not something written in stone that can apply to every single film. Those kind of filmschool mantras are grand in principle, but fall apart quickly in real life. Secondly, "Show, don't tell" works fine when your film has the running time to show everything they need to show. But, in reality, few films stick to that principle, either in part or whole.

The problem with his points are the common ones leveled at each protagonist in the new Star Wars films. People feel they know Rey better than they know Jyn. The reality is, they don't.

This is because they've largely made up what they know in their heads about Rey and don't like what they've seen or been told about Jyn.

We know nothing about Rey, other than she's somehow survived on a desert planet for over a decade and she's basically a tinker that sees her future in the old woman scrubbing crap next to her. She's pretty, decent and likeable.

That's all we know about her. The rest, people have made up in their own minds, because there isn't enough time to explain or show anything else and there are also 2 other films coming that everyone hopes will answer some questions.

We know MUCH more about Jyn because we have been both shown and told with exposition how she's arrived at the point in her life that she has, why she's jaded and cynical and why she's relatively cold. This was the only way we were going to understand her as an audience, otherwise 'Rogue One' would have been 4 hours long. There simply was not enough time to show everything to do with Jyn. But that's an issue with running time, not character or script.

Also, not every protagonist has to CAUSE things to happen. That's just silly and the vast majority of film characters react to the events presented to them in the story. Brody doesn't cause the events in 'Jaws'. Max gets carried along with the stories in the 'Mad Max' films. But both remain great characters and there are numerous examples where the "hero" of the piece is part of the story and not driving it.

Frankly, there's FAR, FAR too much filmschool bullshit going on in amateur criticism these days. People hear handy catchphrases like "character arc" and whatnot and suddenly they're qualified to critique a film. Whilst these markers are good, as thin guidelines, they are not the keystones to great films and if one of these pillars are missing, it doesn't mean that a film is bad.

In the end, to me, I understand Jyn Erso better, because I think she's a more complete character. She's also a far more realistic character, albeit in a fantasy universe. I can buy her child soldier past. I certainly buy into her cynicism, I can understand that she's seen some shit during her time with Saw and I get her belief that she's merely a small fish in a pond she doesn't really have any influence over and I can buy into the events that carry her in 'Rogue One'.

On the other hand, I still know nothing about Rey, other than she has skills, knowledge and abilities that are far beyond what her years, environment, education and story should allow. If anything, 'The Force Awakens' needed to show and tell MUCH more about Rey than it did.

Again we shouldn't forget that Rey is kind of a self contained mystery. Her sudden abilities with the force are a surprise to her too and she's as mystified by the how and why of it as much as we are and mainly about who she is.
I don't think her and Jyn are comparable characters cos Jyns story is self contained and Reys isn't. Nobody in TFAs story is other than Han really.

Sad Professor

Good video which makes some good points, but like Tony said too much screenwriting 101 that I'd fundamentally disagree with. Indiana Jones is another good example of, perhaps not a passive protagonist but an ineffective one whose actions have little to no impact on the course of events. Lucas always liked the idea of the hero as being someone in the wrong place at the wrong time. As the video acknowledges, though, Jyn is only passive for the first two acts before becoming active in the third, which is a common structure with passive protagonists.

I think the point about us not being properly *shown* who Jyn is as an adult is correct. However, it's not that she is too passive, it's that she lacks characterisation, which is a bit of a weak point of the film and Edwards's work in general. In contrast, TFA has characterisation in droves - Abrams is a master of it and if it's not in the script he improvises it on set. I think he goes a bit overboard with it which probably had Kasdan cringing given that he wasn't a big fan of Spielberg and Kershner's indulgences.

david75

Some of you might be interested in a book out this week called Rebel Rising.
Backstory novel about Jyns time with Saw and his faction of the rebellion.

Inviere

david75 wrote: »

Let's hope it's Obi Wan. Heavily rumoured to be a bounty hunter ensemble film as well.
No interest in that.
I want Obi Wan

One of the last missing Jedi, & a well paid bounty hunter...hmmm....

david75

They have already told the best bounty hunter story though.
After the destruction of the Death Star Vader hires Boba fett to track down any info possible about the kid who did it. Fetts searching leads him to tatooine but the trail runs cold until he finds Obi wans house(now abandoned) and only manages to come back with a name. Skywalker.

Vader breaks stuff. It's the moment he finds out he has a son and kenobi had hidden him.

They did this story in one of the new canon comics. Deadly storyline.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

They have already told the best bounty hunter story though.
After the destruction of the Death Star Vader hires Boba fett to track down any info possible about the kid who did it. Fetts searching leads him to tatooine but the trail runs cold until he finds Obi wans house(now abandoned) and only manages to come back with a name. Skywalker.

Vader breaks stuff. It's the moment he finds out he has a son and kenobi had hidden him.

They did this story in one of the new canon comics. Deadly storyline.

That's the film that should be the next "A Star Wars Story". Not this Han Solo shite, or god forbid, a young Bobby Fett movie.

My view is that these "standalone" films should add to the series and fill in the gaps. How Vader and the Emperor found out about Luke would make for a great Star Wars film.

The problem is that you'd get the same online clowns banging on about the lack of "likeable characters" and "it's not a Star Wars movie" and so on.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

That's the film that should be the next "A Star Wars Story". Not this Han Solo shite, or god forbid, a young Bobby Fett movie.

My view is that these "standalone" films should add to the series and fill in the gaps. How Vader and the Emperor found out about Luke would make for a great Star Wars film.

The problem is that you'd get the same online clowns banging on about the lack of "likeable characters" and "it's not a Star Wars movie" and so on.

Well the consensus is the Obi Wan film will be about his time watching over luke and protecting him and the family. They've also had a few issues in the comics showing this.
Jabbas henchmen routinely go around the area collecting a water tax and if you don't pay it bad stuff happens. They never find the Lars homsestead cos Obi Wan either mind tricks them or fights them off.

There's loads of stuff they can do in this period with him. But while I agree it would be amazing to have (a standalone?) about Vader and the emperor and that whole thing, I think they're done forever with Vader on screen


Also a cool idea for the Obi Wan film would be him finding out Anakin not only survived but is Darth Vader. So Obi Wan has to redouble his efforts n stuff.
That's just my head canon / can fiction though.


The story group really know what they're doing and interlacing all these backstories and details together across all the films and books etc.
The Han film will fit perfectly into overall story and add loads to it. Don't worry.

david75

*forgot to say. Uncle Owen routinely runs Obi Wan off and resents him and doesn't want him training luke or even let him have anything to do with him cos it would only bring trouble to them. Which it eventually does of course.

Zubeneschamali

david75 wrote: »

I think they're done forever with Vader on screen

You think Disney are going to leave THE most iconic Star Wars character on the shelf forever?

After the reaction they got in Rogue One to a 5 minute cameo?

Not a chance.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Well the consensus is the Obi Wan film will be about his time watching over luke and protecting him and the family. They've also had a few issues in the comics showing this.
Jabbas henchmen routinely go around the area collecting a water tax and if you don't pay it bad stuff happens. They never find the Lars homsestead cos Obi Wan either mind tricks them or fights them off.

Well, yes, that is exactly what an Obi Wan film will be about. I don't know if there's much of a story to hang on that though, which is the real issue. I think the "more spectacle" disease will overcome the production and the story may feel artificial due to its "bigging up". Plus, we won't see it yet, as Ewan is still too young to play a 50 or nearly 60 year old. Either that, or it'll be set just a few years after 'Revenge of the Sith', which presents its own problems.

david75 wrote: »

There's loads of stuff they can do in this period with him. But while I agree it would be amazing to have (a standalone?) about Vader and the emperor and that whole thing, I think they're done forever with Vader on screen

I'm not sure that there is an awful lot to be done with Kenobi's story in the 20 years he spent on Tatooine. Remember, he's supposed to be in seclusion. Not making waves, lest Vader find out about him and, more importantly, Luke. Having him involved in a big story would further dent Star Wars IMHO.

As for Vader, I don't think the mouse will give up on him yet. He's a huge draw and that equals money. The big problem is James Earl Jones, who just won't be around for much longer, to put it bluntly. They probably won't make the Vader film I'd like to see, in any case. But, I think he'll pop up somewhere along the line.

david75 wrote: »

The story group really know what they're doing and interlacing all these backstories and details together across all the films and books etc.
The Han film will fit perfectly into overall story and add loads to it. Don't worry.

I have zero faith in the 'Han Solo' film. I cannot get on board with a film about Han Solo, without Han Solo. Plus, the directors are the guys who made '21 Jump Street'. The last thing I need from Star Wars is a comedy action film. I have the distinct feeling that 'Han Solo' will be Lucasfilm's 'Guardians of the Galaxy', and I didn't care for that film much at all.

Zubeneschamali

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, yes, that is exactly what an Obi Wan film will be about.

Nah, boring. It'll be soon after Ep. III:

Obiwan realizes Jar-Jar is the true Sith master and has to confront him. Vader and the Emperor go on a road trip with Boba Fett. They all end up in the same party Hotel on Dantooine!

DrWu

david75 wrote: »

Let's hope it's Obi Wan. Heavily rumoured to be a bounty hunter ensemble film as well.
No interest in that.
I want Obi Wan

I was really against the spin-off movies at the start. I was hoping for something new set in the SW universe.

But after Rogue One I've kinda given myself over to the whole thing in the hope that after 2020 Disney and Lucasfilm may go that route.

Until then I'll just enjoy the ride. Apart from some minor gripes (wasn't nuts about some of JJ's direction) it's been pretty enjoyable so far.

david75

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You think Disney are going to leave THE most iconic Star Wars character on the shelf forever?

After the reaction they got in Rogue One to a 5 minute cameo?

Not a chance.

Well apparently they're leaving the OT period behind after these three standalones so yah they are leaving Vader behind I'd say unless one of the two remaining standalones is about him.

Which is doubtful.

Plus you don't overplay your trump card. We don't want Vader being the next Death Star do we? Turning up every other film?

Wedwood

Disney are cleverly using the spinoff movies to fix some of the Prequel problems, by unofficially becoming the replacement Prequel Trilogy.

Rogue One has restored Vader to the iconic villain he really is after the Prequels made a bit of a muck of it like the cringey "NOOOOO" scene in ROTS.

Hopefully the other spinoff movies can do similar things along the way.

david75

Kinda see that but kinda disagree.

They won't touch the OT or the prequels. They're written in stone and will always* stand as they are.

The prequels are Anakins story. Such as they are. Be amazing to see that redone and Anakins fall and Vaders birth given a truly epic and brutal telling. It's not gonna happen though.



*in our lifetime at least and in case you're in any doubt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZO0_yYvmxo

Zubeneschamali

david75 wrote: »

The prequels are Anakins story. Such as they are. Be amazing to see that redone and Anakins fall and Vaders birth given a truly epic and brutal telling. It's not gonna happen though.

Of course it will happen.

The prequels were crap and slated by critics, but they made a ton of money. We are on our third Spiderman reboot in 15 years. The Phantom Menace was 18 years ago. I can see them tossing the prequels into a "classic" dimension, and making new prequels using only the bits that are canon from the other films.

Tony EH

Can't really see them doing that myself, even though I'd love it if they did. But, Star Wars is messy enough with all the unnecessary tinkering that Lucas did. Nobody has a clue what version of the OT they're watching because of all the nonsense he inflicted on those films over the years.

Also, just because Spiderman etc got reboots doesn't mean that Star Wars will. It's a vastly different package altogether.

What's surprising though is that we still haven't seen blu rays of the original films from Disney. I really thought they'd capitalise on the 40th anniversary with that.

Seems that only Hasbro are getting the most out of that gig.

david75

Well you can buy blu Ray but apparently the transfer is all screwed up and taken from the laser disc transfer? I dunno.

But it is very odd they didn't reissue for the 40th anniversary but the thinking around it is they want to focus on the new films. We were all sure the OT would get a theatrical re release this year and then blu ray etc. Didn't happen though.

So kudos to them for not killing the cow dry. I mean people would have complained if they did but would have gone anyways

I love watching the OT original versions in the DVD set I got 97. It's all kinda grainy looking. I'd hate it to be all digitally clean n all

Tony EH

The originals came on a bonus disc with a release years ago, but they were non anamorphic and pretty poor transfers. Bit of a slap in the face for the fans TBH.

There's, literally, an army of people out there waiting for the real films to be released. It's mad to think that Disney wouldn't sort that out. Unless there's a clause in the contract when they bought Lucasfilm.

George Lucas was notoriously dickish about the films in their original format. He was, however, very cool with fan edits and crap like that, so he never went after the likes of Harmy when he did his fantastic work restoring the films.

I don't think Disney are inclined to act in the same manner though.

Sad Professor

The theatrical versions of the OT would need be restored, which isn't a small or cheap job. Harmy's work has raised the standard, so any restoration will have to be full and proper to satisfy fans. I'd say Disney are waiting for the rights to episodes 2-6 to lapse so they don't have to share the profits with Fox. The sequel trilogy will be finished by then which would be a good time for a theatrical re-release of all 9 films.

Zubeneschamali

Tony EH wrote: »

Also, just because Spiderman etc got reboots doesn't mean that Star Wars will. It's a vastly different package altogether.

Will Disney make something new, creative and risky, or remake a massive money spinner?

Given that Disney have spent the last several years remaking Beauty and the Beast, Sleeping Beauty as Malificent, Cinderalla, Jungle book with a heap more remakes in the works, I think we know the answer.

pixelburp

Yeah, I don't know why people think Disney will somehow ring-fence Star Wars as some form of protected species of franchise, or that they might act contrary to all available evidence from their past behaviour: they will absolutely gouge the more popular aspects of Star Wars for every dime/cent they're worth. If that means reboots, they will absolutely reboot. The pointless Beauty and the Beast remake should at least give ample evidence this year alone of this strategy.

Zubeneschamali

More interesting from a Star Wars perspective is Maleficent rather than beauty and the Beast.

Not just a remake, but Disney going back to a hit from their back catalogue and re-imagining it. Giving us more of the iconic black-clad villain and less of the sick-making romance.

Tony EH

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Will Disney make something new, creative and risky, or remake a massive money spinner?

Given that Disney have spent the last several years remaking Beauty and the Beast, Sleeping Beauty as Malificent, Cinderalla, Jungle book with a heap more remakes in the works, I think we know the answer.

All of which are one off films and not embedded in a long running saga which the likes of Star Wars represents. It's a different kettle of fish altogether. Plus they're are live action updates and re-imaginings. The story of Kevin the Sith lord has already been told and pretty much written in stone for the foreseeable future, unfortunately. There may be a chance that something can be done with the Clone Wars. A possible live action trilogy of films centred around that.

Personally, I'd love to see them jettison the prequels and redo them, even if it was just to eliminate the enormous plot holes that they introduced to the series. But it simply isn't going to happen.

It's difficult to know exactly what Disney are going to do with this. We know that the trilogy (episode) format is probably dead after Episode IX. So, more than likely it'll become a Star Wars version of the MCU, with loosely connected one off films (with possible, but not bolted on, sequels), because they make money, no matter how shite they are and that's Disney's bottom line. There's a good chance that Star Wars will be unrecognisable in a few years time.