Advice regarding bill

GeneralC

I apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but hopefully you can help me out! I would be grateful if someone could offer a bit of advice on this matter.

I have been living in a rented flat for over 4 years now. In the last 6-9months the estate agent has hit me with a gas bill, two bills in fact, for over €1,000.

For the first 3 years, I got no gas bill, I actually thought it was included in the rent. When I got the first bill last year, I asked one of the guys who works for them what the bill was about, he said he would look into it and come back to me, he never did. Now it's May 2015 and the estate agents is back in touch regarding the bill. When I mentioned this to the estate agent that I enquired about the bill last year to the gentleman, they just said he doesn't work there anymore, and they require immediate payment. They also claim they have made several attempts to contact me regarding this bill, which is complete BS!

The bill does NOT have my name on it, nor does it have my flat number on it! It just states the landlords name and house number on the bill - this is my issue with the bill in fact. Also, we each have our own metres and boiler system, so how could this bill, which is a bill for the whole property split 5 ways, be accurate to what gas I am using?

I also spoke to previous tenants regarding getting any gas bill, and they in fact got none, only the current tenants have - I am the longest tenant in the property.

I explained to the estate agent that I thought it was included in the rent, as most bills are usually on a monthly/bi monthly period with accurate date/readings on the bill, which I would have a direct debit set up for (UPC, Meteor etc). For example, if I don't pay my TV/Broadband service, it gets disconnected after a few days after the bill is due and I am bombarded with mail/calls to pay it.

Anyway, they said if I don't pay for it, they will be taking it out of my deposit. Also, they want a rent increase of 30%, which seems nuts, but that's besides the point!

Any thoughts? Am I liable for this gas bill? No doubt they will be hounding me now about it.

Thanks in advance.

davo10

If you are there 4 years and haven't paid for gas, do you not think you owe it?

Gas/esb would not be included in rent as they are user dependent, some tenants would use little, others a lot so it's a case of you pay for what you use.

Your contract will have a clause saying that utilities must be paid by the tenant so I an see how the deposit comes into play.

If you have been there for 4 years with no rent increase, I think it is fair to say that you are now paying below market rate. The LL can put it up by 30% provided the new monthly rate is in line with that charged for similar properties in the area.

Didn't you ever wonder why you weren't getting a gas bill? I don't see how you would have assumed it was included, presumably you are getting esb bills or you would have mention that it is included in rent.

GeneralC

davo10 wrote: »

If you are there 4 years and haven't paid for gas, do you not think you owe it?

Gas/esb would not be included in rent as they are user dependent, some tenants would use little, others a lot so it's a case of you pay for what you use.

Your contract will have a clause saying that utilities must be paid by the tenant so I an see how the deposit comes into play.

If you have been there for 4 years with no rent increase, I think it is fair to say that you are now paying below market rate. The LL can put it up by 30% provided the new monthly rate is in line with that charged for similar properties in the area.

Didn't you ever wonder why you weren't getting a gas bill? I don't see how you would have assumed it was included, presumably you are getting esb bills or you would have mention that it is included in rent.

My ESB is done by a coin operated metre, no bill as such.

Can you not see my point regarding this gas bill? They should be issuing me with one every month or two with accurate usage and contact details. Who hands someone a bill after 4 years? How do I know if it's accurate? I pay my rent and all other utilities because it's in my name and I can see how much I've used for that period.

gravehold

davo10 wrote: »

If you are there 4 years and haven't paid for gas, do you not think you owe it?

Gas/esb would not be included in rent as they are user dependent, some tenants would use little, others a lot so it's a case of you pay for what you use.

Your contract will have a clause saying that utilities must be paid by the tenant so I an see how the deposit comes into play.

If you have been there for 4 years with no rent increase, I think it is fair to say that you are now paying below market rate. The LL can put it up by 30% provided the new monthly rate is in line with that charged for similar properties in the area.

Didn't you ever wonder why you weren't getting a gas bill? I don't see how you would have assumed it was included, presumably you are getting esb bills or you would have mention that it is included in rent.

I would still ask for bills with meter reading from the date you moved in that link to your meter and make your the last meter reading on the bill matches your meter.

Only pay your bill don't cover other people's

GeneralC

gravehold wrote: »

I would still ask for bills with meter reading from the date you moved in that link to your meter and make your the last meter reading on the bill matches your meter.

Only pay your bill don't cover other people's

They're only providing me with two bills for the gas. No metre readings on it. Just a headed bill made out to the landlord for the entire property split 5 ways.

Gatling

GeneralC wrote: »

They're only providing me with two bills for the gas. No metre readings on it. Just a headed bill made out to the landlord for the entire property split 5 ways.

€5000 bill

gravehold

GeneralC wrote: »

They're only providing me with two bills for the gas. No metre readings on it. Just a headed bill made out to the landlord for the entire property split 5 ways.

Obviously don't pay that, ask for real bill the gas company can supply back bills. Make sure those bills are to your meter and the current reading is accurate.


They want you gone anyay 30% rent increase might be time to move on. You will be in for a fight with the prtb to get you deposit back

Michael D Not Higgins

If your lease doesn't say the gas is included, you owe something for the gas. How much that is, is up for debate. As others have said, get a proper bill for your meter.

The 30% rent increase is quite possibly fair if the rent hasn't been increased since you moved in. You would need to check the local market rate to see how it compares.

Sligo1

I thought the LL could only increase the rent by 10% and that has to be in line with the market rate? Am I wrong here?

Michael D Not Higgins

Sligo1 wrote: »

I thought the LL could only increase the rent by 10% and that has to be in line with the market rate? Am I wrong here?

Where did the 10% figure come from? The landlord can raise the rent by any amount as long as it is in line with market rate.

The_Morrigan

Sligo1 wrote: »

I thought the LL could only increase the rent by 10% and that has to be in line with the market rate? Am I wrong here?

Yes, you are wrong.

The only restrictions are increases are only permitted once in a 12 month period and no more than the market rates in the area.

K.Flyer

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Yes, you are wrong.

The only restrictions are increases are only permitted once in a 12 month period and no more than the market rates in the area.

I agree with the first part about once a year, but I don't think there is any legal about how much the increase can be.

Michael D Not Higgins

K.Flyer wrote: »

I agree with the first part about once a year, but I don't think there is any legal about how much the increase can be.

RTA 2004, Part 3, Clause 19 "Setting of rent above market rent prohibited."

The_Morrigan

K.Flyer wrote: »

I agree with the first part about once a year, but I don't think there is any legal about how much the increase can be.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/print.html#sec19

PART 3

Rent and Rent Reviews

Setting of rent above market rent prohibited.

19.—(1) In setting, at any particular time, the rent under the tenancy of a dwelling, an amount of rent shall not be provided for that is greater than the amount of the market rent for that tenancy at that time.

(2) The reference in this section to the setting of the rent under a tenancy is a reference to—

(a) the initial setting of the rent under the tenancy, and

(b) any subsequent setting of the rent under the tenancy by way of a review of that rent.

Sligo1

Thanks for the clarification guys. I must have mixed that up from somewhere else. Dunno why I had 10% figure in my head.

omnithanos

Sligo1 wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification guys. I must have mixed that up from somewhere else. Dunno why I had 10% figure in my head.

I assume 10% is indicated as a fair rent increase level.

I'm only putting up my tenants rent by less than 4% this year which leaves it still less than market value so I indicated I'd increase by a similar amount again next year.

You also need written notice of a rent increase at least 28 days before it comes into effect. If they don't put it in writing it is not enforceable.

K.Flyer

GeneralC wrote: »

[...]
we each have our own metres and boiler 
[...]

If you do have your own individual gas meter then go to your meter and get the current meter reading and the meter serial number.
With these two and your address then phone Gas Networks 1850 20 50 50.
First off just say you are looking for a GPRN number. The GPRN number is a unique number for each gas supply, it appears on the gas bill regardless of whose name the account is in. They will take your name and ph number. They will ask you for the address and meter number. If they ask for a name, explain that's why you are calling, to see if the account is actually in your name. and explain the situation to them. Ask them if the account is in your name and for how long back, this may help you to establish how much you actually owe.
If it is not in your name the GPRN number is the key and you must try to get it.
Once you have the GPRN number you can tell the agency that you are only liable for any consumption for a supply account with this number and request that they supply you with the correct Gas Networks invoices with this number.

omnithanos

The landlord is also supposed to take a gas reading for you when you move in and this is generally shown on your lease.

If the estate agents didn't see fit to do this, which I suspect is the case, they were entirely negligent in their duties.

If, as I suspect, the bill is not in your name and you don't agree to pay the bill they issued, you can avoid getting cut off by arranging to have the gas put into your name with the new meter reading. It is up to the landlord to pay any bills that are in his name and he can then ask you to pay your share if he can show you how much of his bill you should have paid. They can't deduct an amount from your deposit for a bill that isn't in your name and they can't make up gas bills with no readings or dates.

Chloris

I'd say if your deposit is roughly the same amount as the bill and you're planning to move out soon anyway, just leave that as payment. Everyone wins.

omnithanos

Chloris wrote: »

I'd say if your deposit is roughly the same amount as the bill and you're planning to move out soon anyway, just leave that as payment. Everyone wins.

It's a made up bill though. Let the estate agents do their job and issue a correct bill.

Chloris

omnithanos wrote:

It's a made up bill though. Let the estate agents do their job and issue a correct bill.

€1,000 is so reasonable for three years worth of gas.

omnithanos

Chloris wrote: »

€1,000 is so reasonable for three years worth of gas.

It sounds about right but it's not accurate. If the tenant were a frugal user the bill would be much lower.

How come so many estate agents can't get the basics right?

If the tenant refused to pay because it's not in their name and refused to pay the rent increase and the landlord elicited to evict the tenant by following correct procedure and the tenant still refused to leave the landlord would have to go through the prtb to get a determination order. The PRTB say that in the majority of cases the PRTB will take criminal proceedings in the District Court against a party who does not comply with a Determination Order (note criminal proceedings can only be brought by the PRTB). Where the tenant is over-holding, the PRTB may issue civil proceedings to obtain a Court Order to enforce the Determination Order. It is only by enforcing a “Court Order” that you can “evict” a tenant. The landlord is also entitled to issue civil proceedings in the Circuit Court to obtain a Court Order to enforce the Determination Order (s124 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004), however, this would have to be funded by the landlord.

GeneralC

I just want to clairfy a few things.

I have no problem paying the rent increase, I accept rents have went up, I was just highlighting the significant increase.

Regarding the gas bill (s), it is indeed a Bord Gais bill, but only for 6 months and not for 4 years. There is a headed letter attached to the copy of the bill stating I owe €1,000 from the estste agents. The bill has the landlord's details, and not mine! It is a bill for the entire property.

People have came and went from this property, without paying for gas, while new tenants are getting regular bills.

The estate agents have acted in a very shady way before regarding leases with inaccurate dates etc so their reputation hasn't been great when it comes to paper work

omnithanos

GeneralC wrote: »

I just want to clairfy a few things.

I have no problem paying the rent increase, I accept rents have went up, I was just highlighting the significant increase.

Regarding the gas bill (s), it is indeed a Bord Gais bill, but only for 6 months and not for 4 years. There is a headed letter attached to the copy of the bill stating I owe €1,000 from the estste agents. The bill has the landlord's details, and not mine! It is a bill for the entire property.

People have came and went from this property, without paying for gas, while new tenants are getting regular bills.

The estate agents have acted in a very shady way before regarding leases with inaccurate dates etc so their reputation hasn't been great when it comes to paper work

I don't understand how he can have a bill for the entire property if you have an individual meter.

Arbiter of Good Taste

My last gas bill was for €400. Normally its between €150 and €300. So, while €1000 for 6 months may be excessive, it might not actually be too far off.

GeneralC

omnithanos wrote: »

I don't understand how he can have a bill for the entire property if you have an individual meter.

Good question, I proposed that to the estate agents and they fobbed me off

GeneralC

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

My last gas bill was for €400. Normally its between €150 and €300. So, while €1000 for 6 months may be excessive, it might not actually be too far off.

It's €1000 for three years. Keep in mind this is a flat/studio with room/separate toilet

GeneralC

I know €1,000 sounds very little for three years gas, and I would have no issues paying what I owe, but it's the fashion the estate agents have dealt with this.

If I sign up for a service tomorrow, I want accurate details of my usage and charges. I do not want a bits of paper work here and there with figures that seem plucked out of the sky after 3 years.

When it comes to bills, I like most people set up direct debits and keep my bills in a folders and store them away.

I am also annoyed at how they expect me to drop them €1,000 immediately. I have been there 4 years and not once have they came out to expect the property. I needed an oven, which wasn't provided, a mattress and a shower door. I made several attempts to get these issues resolved, but no luck over the years, so I had to buy my own table top oven, mattress and freezer etc...

I know I have been getting 'free' gas, but it was also broken for three 4 week periods over the last 2 years, in fact, I had to move back home because it was so cold.

I consider myself a good tenant, I never give hassle, except for this one time and always pay my rent on time.

Greenmachine

Landlord is taking the piss. If you don't have your own meter, then how the hell can you control your usage. If you are in a house share, and live with a heat fiend you will would have to suck up the higher bill. You are not actually in a shared house with these guys.
A single gas meter shared between multiple properties in a subdivided georgian house is typical of the old school bedsits that are now illegal. It was typical in these that heating was included in the rent and the tenant had no way to control heat up or down. Does any of this apply to your living situation OP.

1000 wouldnt be that low for a studio apartment. I'm housesharing in a 3 bed terraced house and we only spend about 200 euro a year on gas. Now we don't use it that often even when its cold and also the house is often empty at weekends and all over christmas etc which would be heavy usage times in most houses but at our rate of use we would only have used about 600 euro in 3 years (give or take).

GeneralC

The property is a house converted into flats. I have my own electricity coined box, which accepts €1/€2 coins. Then there is the separate gas metres for the five separate flats.

I am the only one living in my flat, the rest are couples with bigger flats, one is actually a 2 bed and the other is a proper apartment style with separate kitchen and living room, whereas mine is all in one room. This is another reason why I am annoyed. I pay the same for gas as the 2 bed flat next door to me? Even though it's twice the size!

I haven't been in the flat for the last 7 weeks because I am sick and have to stay at the family home. Even when I am there, I rarely using the heating because my room heats up so quickly.