8 new bridges for Cork

mire

pwurple wrote: »

Sure. Thoughtfully and carefully planned. Now explain to me why Hartley's street (kip pictured above) connected to Merchant's Quay (the large brick wall visible in the same pic) is a good idea.
Millennium bridge connected two populated streets with retail units on them. not the back of an apartment block to the side wall of a shopping center.

Kip <-> footbridge <-> Brick wall.

I see no benefit.

Read the post again; if you didn't understand the concept (the impact of connectivity on development and revitalization) the first time, I don't really see the benefit in repeating it.

j8wk2feszrnpao

mire wrote: »

Read the post again; if you didn't understand the concept (the impact of connectivity on development and revitalization) the first time, I don't really see the benefit in repeating it.

You may need to re-read their post. Pretty sure they don't have an issue with the concept (as they pointed to the Millennium bridge).
They asked how you are so confident that the proposed bridge, that will join the back of an apartment block to the side wall of a shopping center, would do the same. Neither end of the proposed bridge doesn't actually have much if any footfall, all users would need to cross the road as well.

€3m (plus costs of lights, maintenance) is a hell of a lot of money to spend and potentially waste. Spending €3m on McCurtain St itself may be of greater benefit.

whisky_galore

mire wrote: »

Read the post again; if you didn't understand the concept (the impact of connectivity on development and revitalization) the first time, I don't really see the benefit in repeating it.

But they're already connected, the new bridge will only save, what....a minute maybe 2 mins walking time?

I'm sure it will be a very nice bridge but hardly necessary, like many Celtic Tiger era fripperies.

pwurple

mire wrote: »

Read the post again; if you didn't understand the concept (the impact of connectivity on development and revitalization) the first time, I don't really see the benefit in repeating it.

Lol, you cheeky pup.

Thanks, I don't need the development guide for dummies. I've asked for the justification on how connecting the back of an apartment block to the side wall of a shopping center achieves any revitalisation. The examples you have provided are not comparable to this situation.

KCAccidental

pwurple wrote: »

Lol, you cheeky pup.

Thanks, I don't need the development guide for dummies. I've asked for the justification on how connecting the back of an apartment block to the side wall of a shopping center achieves any revitalisation. The examples you have provided are not comparable to this situation.

well that's what they are now. For instance the old car showroom at the corner of harley street is currently for sale, which with improved connections and footfall the bridge would bring could easily be converted in to a few different units or rebuilt.

The metropole could also create something on their side of Harley street. This type of urbanism is dealing with the future not just the present.

KCAccidental

whisky_galore wrote: »

But they're already connected, the new bridge will only save, what....a minute maybe 2 mins walking time?

I'm sure it will be a very nice bridge but hardly necessary, like many Celtic Tiger era fripperies.

Saving 4 or 5 mins to get to the centre of Mccurtain st.

while Brian boru bridge is quite close the amount of through traffic and the tight and poorly lit footpath on the bridge make it unattractive to pedestrians.

j8wk2feszrnpao

KCAccidental wrote: »

Saving 4 or 5 mins to get to the centre of Mccurtain st.

while Brian boru bridge is quite close the amount of through traffic and the tight and poorly lit footpath on the bridge make it unattractive to pedestrians.

Is there really much footfall from the Brian Boru side? If being poorly lit is an issue, then it's a cheap option to get that sorted.
With Patrick's Bridge on the other side, this only services someone coming out of the side of Merchants Quay; and I think crossing two busy roads is more off putting than walking the extra minute to get to either of the current bridges.

I have serious doubts that a new bridge is needed or would help, particularly at the cost of €3m, but it's going to go ahead so I hope I'm wrong.

whisky_galore

KCAccidental wrote: »

Saving 4 or 5 mins to get to the centre of Mccurtain st.

while Brian boru bridge is quite close the amount of through traffic and the tight and poorly lit footpath on the bridge make it unattractive to pedestrians.

Are people that slow at walking?

Like what was said, the lighting problem is easily and cheaply solved.
The footpath is not that tight in fairness. I know people are getting obese but come on...

pwurple

KCAccidental wrote: »

well that's what they are now. For instance the old car showroom at the corner of harley street is currently for sale, which with improved connections and footfall the bridge would bring could easily be converted in to a few different units or rebuilt.

The metropole could also create something on their side of Harley street. This type of urbanism is dealing with the future not just the present.

That's awesome, are you buying it? What's your idea for it?

Oh wait, you can't get credit, or if you can, you can't include all of the interest as a business expense. Or if you can self-fund, you can't get planning for years. And if you do, every other Cork person will tell you how much they don't like whatever you've done, even though you were bent over into doing it by planning.

Listen, i have a few small places around the city, it's painfully difficult to develop anything here. The amount of red tape, the expenses you are double taxed on and the lack of any safety net if you take those massive risks is the main problem. Not the lack of a bridge.

corkonion

KCAccidental wrote: »

pwurple wrote: »

Lol, you cheeky pup.

Thanks, I don't need the development guide for dummies. I've asked for the justification on how connecting the back of an apartment block to the side wall of a shopping center achieves any revitalisation. The examples you have provided are not comparable to this situation.

well that's what they are now. For instance the old car showroom at the corner of harley street is currently for sale, which with improved connections and footfall the bridge would bring could easily be converted in to a few different units or rebuilt.

The metropole could also create something on their side of Harley street. This type of urbanism is dealing with the future not just the present.

The old pj o hea car showrooms are already sold, to the new owners of the metropole hotel (same group already own the airport hotel and the international hotel, (also near the airport)

KCAccidental

whisky_galore wrote: »

Are people that slow at walking?

Like what was said, the lighting problem is easily and cheaply solved.
The footpath is not that tight in fairness. I know people are getting obese but come on...

that's to the centre of McCurtain Street which would be the metropole hotel.

That footpath is definitely tight for those with buggies and also people illegally using their bikes to get across the river on Brian Boru bridge.

the spiel for the bridge on the cork city website confirms this

Harley Street Bridge
The implementation of this bridge is crucial to the extension of prime retail to McCurtain Street, allowing pedestrian flow another route to the Key Secondary Shopping Street, and facilitating the redevelopment of the Saint Patrick’s Quay frontage for retail uses. The bridge will also provide a bicycle route connecting the City Centre to new radial routes through the North Docks area, as Brian Boru bridge is not wide enough to accommodate a bicycle lane.

KCAccidental

pwurple wrote: »

That's awesome, are you buying it? What's your idea for it?

Oh wait, you can't get credit, or if you can, you can't include all of the interest as a business expense. Or if you can self-fund, you can't get planning for years. And if you do, every other Cork person will tell you how much they don't like whatever you've done, even though you were bent over into doing it by planning.

Listen, i have a few small places around the city, it's painfully difficult to develop anything here. The amount of red tape, the expenses you are double taxed on and the lack of any safety net if you take those massive risks is the main problem. Not the lack of a bridge.

Having the bridge helps that's the point. No one is saying it will be a panacea. I'm sure people said the same thing about popes quay before the millenium bridge.

parkerpen

It's all about priorities, I suppose. It would be nice to have the new bridge as it would facilitate those coming on and off the aircoach and connecting with the Bus Station etc. but for the minimal advantages it might give, surely there are other more needed infrastructure projects in the city?

Pitcairn

Not to dig up the Cork 'chip on our shoulders' about the capital but I bet you the Eastern Gateway Bridge will eventually be downgraded from an iconic swing bridge to a standard fixed, two-way, ugly structure due to 'funding'.

Look at the new entrance to Kent Station. The first proposal has a beautiful white 'sweeping' canopy but was replaced instead with a standard glass box which you can see from Horgan's Quay.

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there any chance of this bridge being built by 2023? It would improve Cork City massively. Reduce traffic congestion etc etc

BlinkingLights

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there any chance of this bridge being built by 2023? It would improve Cork City massively. Reduce traffic congestion etc etc

Shutting that hideous looking power station and maybe re-using the main building as something like a gallery and getting rid of those horrific looking pylons that cut up across the hills of Montenotte and right through Mayfield and parts of the North City would be a massive improvement.

Can you imagine ESB running similar pylons (even in the 1950s when they were constructed) over the face of Killiney Hill or something? That's effectively what they did in Cork.

Are they even necessary anymore?

namloc1980

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there any chance of this bridge being built by 2023? It would improve Cork City massively. Reduce traffic congestion etc etc

No funding, no planning. 2033 maybe.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

mire

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there any chance of this bridge being built by 2023? It would improve Cork City massively. Reduce traffic congestion etc etc

No it won't; reduce traffic congestion I mean. It is also completely unnecessary for docklands.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

To chip in on the posts about whether the bridge is justifiable or not. I'd be of the opinion that it would help quite a bit. Not on the level of how much good a bridge connecting Páirc Uí Chaoimh to the Lower Glanmire Road would do but still beneficial.

MacCurtain Street is a relatively long street with about 40 retail units on each side, that can only currently be accessed from either end of it. I think that holds back the street to an extent. Having a bridge feeding into its centre from the city side could bring about huge improvements in the future for it. Patrick's Quay is also pretty dead and it could breath a new lease of life into there too. I also think people are understating just how busy the side of Merchants Quay is, that entrance has a constant flow of people coming in and out of it. Patrick's Bridge is probably the most used bridge by pedestrians outside of Dublin. I don't think that's too bold a statement to make? Letting people funnel across that part of the river through a different route would probably do wonders.

As someone else has said it allows people coming off the private bus operators to feed straight over into Merchant's Quay or the actual bus station. Both Patrick's Bridge and Brian Boru are not friendly to cyclists, and that further enhances this bridges appeal. It also offers non car users a more comfortable route to and from the train station.

I think part of the beauty of Cork City centre at this moment is that as a pedestrian you can get around large parts of it with minimal interaction with car heavy roads. For example, you can get from the top of Patrick's Street out to Western Road without the need for a level crossing, I think that is fantastic (although I am against further pedestrianisation of the city centre, it's fine as is).
I won't cry if this bridge isn't built, but I think it is incredibly shortsighted to think that it couldn't revitalise a fairly large part of the city centre and enhance the city as a whole.

(sorry for the long post)

j8wk2feszrnpao

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think it is incredibly shortsighted to think that it couldn't revitalise a fairly large part of the city centre and enhance the city as a whole.

I think you are greatly over estimating what the bridge might do. There are two bridges very close to it, and you are saying that a third will revitalize MacCurtain Street?

All the examples you gave are for potential traffic going from the train station and from the private bus operators on Patricks Quay, away from MacCurtain Street. I would say that people coming out of the side of Mechants Quay are generally looking for a bus or taxi, rather than needing a bridge to Patricks Quay.

Maybe as a pedestrian/cycle only bridge it would be worth it alone, but in either case, users are faced with two busy roads they would need to cross; so it wouldn't be any more attractive than the two bridges already in use (both of which aren't exactly over-loaded).
How much time would be saved by having the bridge? A (slow) 20sec walk to the bridges that we already access to? Is that going to revitalize a street?
Is there also a plan to maybe do something with Harelys St (it's quite bleak and not well lit) as well if they want this traffic to flow into the center of MacCurtain Street?

There's nothing shortsighted about having doubts about the rewards of such a financial investment (when the money could be used for Brian Boru in particular - and really do a job there). As I said earlier, I hope to be proven wrong (cause they are likely to build it anyway), but it might be more worthwhile to use the money to improve MacCurtain St itself and give people a reason to visit the street in the first place.

whisky_galore

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I think you are greatly over estimating what the bridge might do. There are two bridges very close to it, and you are saying that a third will revitalize MacCurtain Street?

You would swear parts of Cork City were in darkest Africa 'undiscovered' by consumers and revitalised by the mere addition of a bridge.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Karla Flabby Sickness wrote: »

I think you are greatly over estimating what the bridge might do. There are two bridges very close to it, and you are saying that a third will revitalize MacCurtain Street?

All the examples you gave are for potential traffic going from the train station and from the private bus operators on Patricks Quay, away from MacCurtain Street. I would say that people coming out of the side of Mechants Quay are generally looking for a bus or taxi, rather than needing a bridge to Patricks Quay.

Maybe as a pedestrian/cycle only bridge it would be worth it alone, but in either case, users are faced with two busy roads they would need to cross; so it wouldn't be any more attractive than the two bridges already in use (both of which aren't exactly over-loaded).
How much time would be saved by having the bridge? A (slow) 20sec walk to the bridges that we already access to? Is that going to revitalize a street?
Is there also a plan to maybe do something with Harelys St (it's quite bleak and not well lit) as well if they want this traffic to flow into the center of MacCurtain Street?

There's nothing shortsighted about having doubts about the rewards of such a financial investment (when the money could be used for Brian Boru in particular - and really do a job there). As I said earlier, I hope to be proven wrong (cause they are likely to build it anyway), but it might be more worthwhile to use the money to improve MacCurtain St itself and give people a reason to visit the street in the first place.

I'm not thinking a bridge would work miracles. But MacCurtain Street is essentially the only part of the city centre not in the middle island. MacCurtain Street already isn't car friendly as it's one way with no parking, so opening it up in the middle for walking traffic to pass through it could be good for the area, the potential for Patrick's Quay to flourish is also there.

The hotels, hostels, schools, businesses and apartments in the MacCurtain Street area means there is a very high volume of people walking in and out of the area and having a third artery feeding this can only be good.
Like I said, Patrick's Bridge is probably the most used bridge by pedestrians in the country outside of Dublin, when considering that I really think there is a justification for a new bridge.

Put it this way, if a bridge is going to be built in Cork, this is the second best area that it could be placed to potentially improve things for people/businesses/traffic (the best place would definitely be on the Lower Glanmire Road but that's not really possible).

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

mire

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Only partly true imo; the success of an area like this depends on both its destination qualities and its accessibility levels; it's iterative. If MacCurtain street was more accessible/easy to get to/convenient for pedestrians, it would be more attractive as a commercial destination. It's commercial appeal would improve if its access improves. There is a direct correlation in urban areas between the degree of accessibility and footfall. Footfall = Viability/Economic activity.

the beer revolu

If this bridge somehow helps to dispel the ridiculous notion that many people from the south side have that Mc Curtain Street is a bit out of of the way or not in the city centre, then I'm all for it.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I'm not thinking a bridge would work miracles. But MacCurtain Street is essentially the only part of the city centre not in the middle island. MacCurtain Street already isn't car friendly as it's one way with no parking

MacCurtain Street does have parking I'm sure. I've never parked there myself, but between those who appear to park legally and illegally, there's plenty of cars parked on the street.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

opening it up in the middle for walking traffic to pass through it could be good for the area, the potential for Patrick's Quay to flourish is also there.

See, I don't think it does open it up. Users must still pass two busy roads, and then up a bleak Harelys St road. Where's the attraction to entice users from the two current bridges? I could understand if this was to be something akin to the old Sarsfields Road Roundabout bridge that allowed you to bypass the traffic, but it doesn't.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

The hotels, hostels, schools, businesses and apartments in the MacCurtain Street area means there is a very high volume of people walking in and out of the area and having a third artery feeding this can only be good.
Like I said, Patrick's Bridge is probably the most used bridge by pedestrians in the country outside of Dublin, when considering that I really think there is a justification for a new bridge.

I've no idea where the bridge ranks in terms of how busy it is, but with all those you've listed, MacCurtain Street has never felt to be a very 'busy' street. Which I think it more down to what's located on the street, than it having an access issue.

j8wk2feszrnpao

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Exactly, the city is small. Just how many walk out of the side of Merchants Quay and think, if only there was a bridge to get me across to MacCurtain St? As they also consider the two lanes of traffic, Harelys St which isn't pedestrian friendly, and emerge at the Metropole (where unless they are staying, they are likely to have to start walking back down the street).

DylanGLC

Although I have no problem with the bridge, I think it would be better suited connecting from the area outside Kent Station to the new skyscraper area of land. Wasn't the whole point of the new Kent station developments to open it up to the city centre more? This would get people from the train station to that site much faster, especially when it is likely to house thousands of employees, on top of hotel guests.

j8wk2feszrnpao

mire wrote: »

If MacCurtain street was more accessible/easy to get to/convenient for pedestrians, it would be more attractive as a commercial destination.

The main footfall is on Patrick St. There's a bridge that directly links it to MacCurtain St. It couldn't be more accessible unless you replace/add-to Patrick's bridge with a bridge that crosses over the traffic.

If you are standing in the middle of Patrick's St, what is the reason for going to MacCurtain St? What is there unique on MacCurtain St to draw you there? Until there's a relevant answer to that for enough people, then you can build an extra 2 or 3 bridges, and it's likely to not make much of a difference.

As per the demise of North Main St, if you don't have something to attract people, access isn't the issue.