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SSM Referendum - Has Anyone Actually Changed Their Mind? MOD Warning 1st Post
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desertcircus wrote: »1. That the amendment will guarantee gay couples a right to surrogacy.
2. That the amendment will abolish heterosexual marriage.
3. That the amendment will change the law to allow gay people to adopt.
4. That the amendment will require churches to host gay weddings.
5. That the evidence shows that children do best with a mother and father present.
6. That being raised in anything other than a "normal" family structure is actively damaging.
7. That civil partnership is the same as marriage.
8. That marriage and parenthood are fundamentally connected.
...
I could go on, but you get the picture. Incidentally, if you can find a single argument from the No campaign that isn't a lie, can you let me know? I still haven't found one.
8.
Most, nearly all (currently) married people have and want children - so how can you disavow the link between marriage and children?
And strangely, the majority of gay couples do not have nor want children - IMHO.
...for starters.0 -
I am very close to switching from a 'Yes' to a 'No', being honest. As the campaign has progressed, I have become disillusioned with the 'Yes' campaign. They claim to be all for equality and fairness, yet we continuously see bullying, intimidation and harassment of those who express their right to Vote 'No'. I am very uncomfortable with that. The 'No' campaign is very much like the 'No' campaign in the Scottish independence referendum, in that their greatest strength is the fact that their opponent seems to have this desire to self-destruct.
I'm not being funny, but do you think most civil rights movements would have gotten very far without calling people out on their views and opinions?
"I have a right to be pro-segregation, Ms Parks! I'm not racist, I just prefer that black people sit at the back of the bus and leave the front for us white people! You trying to sit with me is intimidating me and I don't like it!"
"Oh fair enough, I'll be on my way. Sorry about that."
Can you not see how frustrating, heartbreaking and just plain difficult this campaign is for many gay people? Sometimes that comes to the surface and someone gets called a díckhead for saying something offensive. Boohoo, you got your feelings hurt on Facebook - gay people have been murdered over their sexuality. "I have a right to vote no!" does not give you a free pass to make hurtful, judgmental comments about "the gays" as if you know every LGBT person in Ireland.
I'm so sick of this heterosexual whining. you're annoyed about peoole talking about a vote on their civil liberties? Try actually BEING one of those people. I find it incredibly embarrassing.
I don't think the Yes side is coming off badly. I think it's actually us straight people who are coming off as whiny, spoiled brats who have no idea what it's like to face daily discrimination based on who we love.
I can't imagine being put on public trial as a person, parent and citizen. Debated left, right and centre as if I was a statistic and not a human being.
There are people behind this referendum. I think everyone needs to remember that.0 -
Any examples of this bullying and harassment from the yes side. Seems a lot of people taking offence at criticism and disagreement.
They want to make you look like a pariah if you vote No.
It's classic bullying tactic.
Then we have so many homosexuals crawling out of the woodwork with their stories. They need to just STFU ffs.0 -
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Most people who are married also have children.
Most gay couples do not have children.
Is about the male and female parental role models which are complementary.
Me and my husband are both good parents. The only thing he can't do is breastfeed. What exactly is complementarity and why is it necessary to raise children? My father turned out pretty amazing despite growing up without a dad. What exactly was wrong with how he was raised, by a widow with six children under 10?0 -
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Yes from the start. Haven't been swayed by boards or the people I know who intend to vote no.
I'm sick of it at this stage, I just want the referendum to be over. It's been non-stop about it the past month. I've gotten into too many debates about it that I just refuse to entertain people at this stage.0 -
I think most of the minds I have changed - like 80% - are people who said they were not going to vote and I convinced them they should.
Another 15% are people who came up to me/us expressing concerns that were nothing to do with the vote and we - despite the successful campaigning of the no side - have explained to them WHY it has nothing to do with the vote - and so they switched to "yes".
I think the remaining 5% came up to us with that "narrative" of us being insulting and oppressive and just calling the "no" side bigots and homophobes - and we sent them away with a new impression of a "yes" side that are engaged with the issues and the concerns and are happy to have people vote "no" if they are doing so for genuinely held concerns and not "because - reasons".
My optimism for this vote has swung day to day from every extreme possible to every other - but my experience from it - and what I have given into it - has been as positive as I could have hoped for.0 -
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I'm sorry that some people on the Yes side have put you off. I've been staying away from the majority of TV/radio/online debates because I find them upsetting, so I haven't heard much from either side, but name calling and intimidation isn't acceptable from anyone.I started out as Yes myself aswell but whatever about the No side, it was inevitable the tactics they were going to use but the YES side have decided to completely throw their toys out of the pram at people who have decided to exercise their right to Vote No to which Im quite disgusted about and as someone who has never had any particularly strong views on the subject it has made me think that perhaps these campaigners dont deserve to have their legislation brought in if thats they way are carrying on. As of now I havent decided what to do, I may not even vote at all and if I was to Vote No, it wouldnt be necessarily because I agree with anything the No side has to say but it would merely be to just leave things as they are as I certainly dont want to be voting for a shower of hooligans who as it is are sabotaging their own campaign unnecessarily.
Seeing as you started out as a yes, I'd like to appeal to you to stick with that. From one boardsie to another.
I am not a campaign. I am not an abstract idea on street posters. I'm just a normal person. I work as a receptionist. I have guinea pigs as pets. I worry about paying all my bills on time and that I'll never afford my own house and that rent is Dublin is going crazy lately.
I also happen to be a lesbian. I didn't choose that, but that's just who I am. I've been in a relationship with a wonderful woman for the last ten years and I would very much like to marry her. It feels crappy that I need to ask strangers for permission to make that commitment to the woman I love but that's the situation we're in.
It really hurts when people say they don't care about the outcome either way, or that they'll vote no just to spite the government, or when they say they're fed up of listening to people plead for their rights. I'm just a person. I have feelings and hopes and dreams, same as anyone else. So please let me have the same rights as everyone else.0 -
I was indifferent about voting, now I'm determined to do so.
(however, my opinion on marriage equality has not changed)0 -
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I started of as a yes voter thinking the no side probably had valid concerns as well that should be considered. I have since changed my mind that the no side has valid concerns that should be listened to because I believe the NO campaign is mostly motivated from a religious perspective and that the objections they have raised are so far removed from the intended purpose of the referendum that they cannot be taken seriously. I was quite skeptical about a yes win this time last year but having watched all the debates I now would bet on a Yes result as I think the Irish people are more than intelligent enough to see through the obfuscating tactics and fear mongering of the NO side. I think the Iona crowd made a mistake employing the services of the 'even these gays say no' bloggers Keith Mills and Paddy Manning because they came across as immensely 'unlikable' to say the least and have heard quite a few ppl say so in passing in my locale.
I don't think the conduct of either side of the lobbies should be used as a excuse to vote either way - the lobbies are just a very tiny tiny percentage of the population.0 -
To me a lot of the "I was voting yes but now i'm going to vote no because of the yes campaign" really displays gay peoples position in society. People are basically saying I think you deserve equality/ the right to get married but I don't like the way your people have behaving so now I'm going to take my vote and use it against you. It really shows the balance of power. To me it looks like, yeah You can get married, just don't step outside your box.
It just reminds me of the old trope "I like the gays but do they have to shove in our faces?"0 -
frostyjacks wrote: »In fairness, there's a degree of truth in every one of those points. Every utterance from the no side just seems to have been twisted and regurgitated by the yes campaign to maximize offence.
care to post that degree of truth?
Just on the "a child needs a mother and a father" one.
No, children need a male and female role model, these do not have to be parents, they do not even have to be related to the child. Just someone the child spends time with and looks up to.
thats just one pointer.8.
Most, nearly all (currently) married people have and want children - so how can you disavow the link between marriage and children?
And strangely, the majority of gay couples do not have nor want children - IMHO.
...for starters.
umm, most longterm hetero couples have children. Most people want children, it's a biological want.
what does this have to do with marriage?0 -
I'm sorry but this whole "I was voting yes but now some people were shouting and arguing a bit so I'm going to vote no" thing smacks of just trying to find any old excuse to vote no.
If you're going to vote no then at least have the courage to make it clear why; instead of peddling this tripe about the 'Yes' campaign forcing your hand.
Christ almighty what kind of a society do we live in when some shouty posts by some random people on Facebook is enough of an excuse to tell tens of thousands of your fellow human beings that actually you don't want them to have the same freedoms as you do.
This referendum isn't about the 'Yes' campaign or the 'No' campaign; it's about:- Allowing people in loving relationships the freedom to have a husband or wife and all the legal protections and otherwise that come with it.
- It's about letting the homosexual population of Ireland and indeed those around the world know that the Irish people support them and their relationships and choices.
- It's about showing that the Irish people have the desire and will and courage to make changes to our constitution to form a more inclusive and modern society irrespective of how much we like or dislike the current Government or austerity or whatever else.
- It's about showing the companies like Apple and Google who are investing huge amounts of money into diversity programmes that the Irish people and thus the country of Ireland is a good place to make that investment.
- It's about accepting a portion of our society that has been victimised and shunned and abused in equal measures over many years; and making a stand and trying to draw a line in the sand over it.
For those of you who are insisting on voting 'No'; here's a true story about a young man who hasn't come out to his family yet and they're all vehement 'No' campaign supporters.
Contrary to what some people may believe; it's still difficult for a young person to come out to their families and friends. He had been trying to tell them for some time but he just couldn't find the courage and will to do it. Now he is surrounded by people who are vehemently arguing against a 'Yes' vote, and buying into many of the arguments peddled by the 'No' side which are making this young man feel like a complete waste of space and an utter disappointment to his family.
He feels so bad over it that he is trying to emigrate to a country and a city which is more accepting of homosexuality; and away from parents and family who he feels could never accept or support him.
So stop and think for a moment about the real reasons you're voting 'No'. And then think to yourself could there be someone in your life exactly like the young man I've mentioned above. Someone in your immediate or maybe close family who is relatively young and who feels distraught and upset and confused because you're supporting a 'No' vote for no better reason than some raving lunatic on the telly or on Facebook said something that slightly annoyed you.0 -
I'm sorry but this whole "I was voting yes but now some people were shouting and arguing a bit so I'm going to vote no" thing smacks of just trying to find any old excuse to vote no.
If you're going to vote no then at least have the courage to make it clear why; instead of peddling this tripe about the 'Yes' campaign forcing your hand.
Christ almighty what kind of a society do we live in when some shouty posts by some random people on Facebook is enough of an excuse to tell tens of thousands of your fellow human beings that actually you don't want them to have the same freedoms as you do.
This referendum isn't about the 'Yes' campaign or the 'No' campaign; it's about:- Allowing people in loving relationships the freedom to have a husband or wife and all the legal protections and otherwise that come with it.
- It's about letting the homosexual population of Ireland and indeed those around the world know that the Irish people support them and their relationships and choices.
- It's about showing that the Irish people have the desire and will and courage to make changes to our constitution to form a more inclusive and modern society irrespective of how much we like or dislike the current Government or austerity or whatever else.
- It's about showing the companies like Apple and Google who are investing huge amounts of money into diversity programmes that the Irish people and thus the country of Ireland is a good place to make that investment.
- It's about accepting a portion of our society that has been victimised and shunned and abused in equal measures over many years; and making a stand and trying to draw a line in the sand over it.
Contrary to what some people may believe; it's still difficult for a young person to come out to their families and friends. He had been trying to tell them for some time but he just couldn't find the courage and will to do it. Now he is surrounded by people who are vehemently arguing against a 'Yes' vote, and buying into many of the arguments peddled by the 'No' side which are making this young man feel like a complete waste of space and an utter disappointment to his family.
He feels so bad over it that he is trying to emigrate to a country and a city which is more accepting of homosexuality; and away from parents and family who he feels could never accept or support him.
So stop and think for a moment about the real reasons you're voting 'No'. And then think to yourself could there be someone in your life exactly like the young man I've mentioned above. Someone in your immediate or maybe close family who is relatively young and who feels distraught and upset and confused because you're supporting a 'No' vote for no better reason than some raving lunatic on the telly or on Facebook said something that slightly annoyed you.
The homosexual in question need not worry, this will pass by about 4:10 -
Is this post even serious? Like seriously serious? "Crawling out of the woodwork"? They need to STFU, apparently, and we're the bullies.They want to make you look like a pariah if you vote No.
It's classic bullying tactic.
Then we have so many homosexuals crawling out of the woodwork with their stories. They need to just STFU ffs.
This kind of attitude is what causes the yes side to lash out, and honestly it's not hard to see why.0 -
You know what? I'm tired of this whole campaign too.
- I'm tired of the whole humiliating experience going door-to-door canvassing asking complete strangers for their permission to marry my partner of 20 years.
- I'm tired of seeing posters suggesting that I am unfit to be around children or that I view women as incubators. I don't even fecking want children!
- I'm tired of turning on my TV and seeing straight people debate whether my relationship has merit or not.
- I'm tired of going online and seeing people complain about being bullied because they think I and other people like me should not be advocates for our own lives and rights.
- I'm tired of explaining what it was like to grow up gay in Ireland where you had to hide who you were for fear of being rejected by your family, friends and work colleagues because of something you had no choice over.
So yeah, I'm tired. But I'm going to keep going out with a smile on my face to canvass and be polite to people who don't think I deserve what they have and hope for a Yes so I or any other future LGBT person doesn't have to experience what I have gone through these past few weeks.0 -
I'm amazed at how people will allow their vote to be influenced by the manner of the campaigns rather than considering the simple question that is being asked which is do you agree with below being added to the constitution.
"marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex"
Nothing more, nothing less.
Nothing about children, parenting, families, aggressive Yes campaigners or busy facebook feeds.
The issue is a human rights one, please don't forget that and cast your vote for that reason only and think of the people who will be directly affected by it.0 -
I've been a firm yes throughout the campaign and will be voting that way in the referendum. However, the campaign has been a bit disappointing.
I got exactly what I expected from the more vociferous elements of the No side - illogical and irrelevant waffle. I had had higher expectations for the Yes side though. I've marched in Pride for the past number of years, and actively supported marriage equality every step of the way. I had high hopes for how this campaign could show how open our society had become, with passionate members of the Yes campaign winning hearts and minds with emotive but well reasoned arguments. That has been the case in many quarters, but there has also been a bit of disheartening undercurrent of campaigners that seeks to shut down debate.
While it will be great if this gets passed, and it would be a day on which I'd be immensely proud to be Irish, some of that enthusiasm has been dampened.0 -
I'm sorry but this whole "I was voting yes but now some people were shouting and arguing a bit so I'm going to vote no" thing smacks of just trying to find any old excuse to vote no.
If you're going to vote no then at least have the courage to make it clear why; instead of peddling this tripe about the 'Yes' campaign forcing your hand.
Christ almighty what kind of a society do we live in when some shouty posts by some random people on Facebook is enough of an excuse to tell tens of thousands of your fellow human beings that actually you don't want them to have the same freedoms as you do.
This referendum isn't about the 'Yes' campaign or the 'No' campaign; it's about:- Allowing people in loving relationships the freedom to have a husband or wife and all the legal protections and otherwise that come with it.
- It's about letting the homosexual population of Ireland and indeed those around the world know that the Irish people support them and their relationships and choices.
- It's about showing that the Irish people have the desire and will and courage to make changes to our constitution to form a more inclusive and modern society irrespective of how much we like or dislike the current Government or austerity or whatever else.
- It's about showing the companies like Apple and Google who are investing huge amounts of money into diversity programmes that the Irish people and thus the country of Ireland is a good place to make that investment.
- It's about accepting a portion of our society that has been victimised and shunned and abused in equal measures over many years; and making a stand and trying to draw a line in the sand over it.
For those of you who are insisting on voting 'No'; here's a true story about a young man who hasn't come out to his family yet and they're all vehement 'No' campaign supporters.
Contrary to what some people may believe; it's still difficult for a young person to come out to their families and friends. He had been trying to tell them for some time but he just couldn't find the courage and will to do it. Now he is surrounded by people who are vehemently arguing against a 'Yes' vote, and buying into many of the arguments peddled by the 'No' side which are making this young man feel like a complete waste of space and an utter disappointment to his family.
He feels so bad over it that he is trying to emigrate to a country and a city which is more accepting of homosexuality; and away from parents and family who he feels could never accept or support him.
So stop and think for a moment about the real reasons you're voting 'No'. And then think to yourself could there be someone in your life exactly like the young man I've mentioned above. Someone in your immediate or maybe close family who is relatively young and who feels distraught and upset and confused because you're supporting a 'No' vote for no better reason than some raving lunatic on the telly or on Facebook said something that slightly annoyed you.
You're trivialising what is a rather legitimate criticism of behavior from one side. The topic of the referendum is emotive to many that's understandable, but that is not a justification for silencing opposing views through the likes of defacing posters or shouting down people with opposing/on the fence views by associating any ill-expressed thought as them being backwards thinking. It is a precedent tactic I'm sure many do not want to see occurring & certainly seems to be a factor in why a number of people have stated they are now not voting or have changed their vote.
It shouldn't be accepted regardless of the topic being put to vote. Nor should it be dismissed as whinging when it is called out. If the same gloating & bullying behaviour was exhibited by the no side or any side in any vote, I would be just as critical & would hope you would be the same.0 -
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You're trivialising what is a rather legitimate criticism of behavior from one side. The topic of the referendum is emotive to many that's understandable, but that is not a justification for silencing opposing views through the likes of defacing posters or shouting down people with opposing/on the fence views by associating any ill-expressed thought as them being backwards thinking homophobes. It is a precedent tactic I'm sure many do not want to see occurring & certainly seems to be a factor in why a number of people have stated they are now not voting or have changed their vote.
It shouldn't be accepted regardless of the topic being put to vote. Nor should it be dismissed as whinging when it is called out. If the same gloating & bullying behaviour was exhibited by the no side or any side in any vote, I would be just as critical & would hope you would be the same.
opposing views should not be silenced.
lies however, those should be.0 -
WoolyJumper wrote: »To me a lot of the "I was voting yes but now i'm going to vote no because of the yes campaign" really displays gay peoples position in society. People are basically saying I think you deserve equality/ the right to get married but I don't like the way your people have behaving so now I'm going to take my vote and use it against you. It really shows the balance of power. To me it looks like, yeah You can get married, just don't step outside your box.
It just reminds me of the old trope "I like the gays but do they have to shove in our faces?"
Well from my own experience of the campaign I genuinely think the ones doing the most damage to the Yes side are actually mostly straight campaigners who are just trying too hard. The very persuasive accounts of personal experiences from gay people and their loved ones have been hamstrung to a degree by them.
It has become the Irish equivalent of Poppy Day, whoever can be seen by the most people whilst wearing the biggest Yes badge and showing the greatest indignation at a contrary opinion wins the Tolerant Straight Person of 2015 award.0 -
I'll vote yes if I manage to get down to the polling station.
However my big reservation about the whole debate is the phrase "Marriage Equality" .
The yes side almost seem embarrassed to call the referendum what it actually is which is a vote on gay marriage.
It isn't marriage equality as if someone wants to marry their sister they cannot do it so people like that (however odd it may be) don't have equal rights if the law changes with this referendum.0 -
looking_around wrote: »opposing views should not be silenced.
lies however, those should be.
And how you conduct yourself in quelling misinformation being spread by somebody with an opposing view whether you like it or not, is an important aspect for making the person you are talking too be receptive to your ideas.0 -
It's been a poor enough job by a lot of the yes side (I wont say campaign as most of the abuse and intimidation hasnt come from actual people invoved in the campaign). They've taken the un-loseable campaign ,where their opponents literally havent a logical argument to stand on, and are inadvertently making a race of it due to their terrible self righteous attitude and poor arguments. It'll pass comfortably obviously, but it probably would've been a lot more comfortable had a lot of people just kept their noses out of the debate. The yes campaign literally has everything on its side - logic, humanity, original public support, government support, media support. Just play it safe and clean and it wins by a huge margin0
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looking_around wrote: »opposing views should not be silenced.
lies however, those should be.
You assert that freedom of speech is now unnecessary for democracy?
Lies are exposed through a balanced exchange of views, reasonable people are not easily deceived against their better judgement when both sides get a say.
Silencing dissent is a hallmark of totalitarianism. That's what nervous yes voters are afraid of! They want to see this pass but not at the cost of alienating large sections of society and attacking democratic fairness. A yes vote could feel like an endorsement of this intolerant ideology that has found a perfect vehicle to hijack and ideal human shields to deflect criticism.
And you can't understand why people feel very uncomfortable?0 -
You're trivialising what is a rather legitimate criticism of behavior from one side. The topic of the referendum is emotive to many that's understandable, but that is not a justification for silencing opposing views through the likes of defacing posters or shouting down people with opposing/on the fence views by associating any ill-expressed thought as them being backwards thinking. It is a precedent tactic I'm sure many do not want to see occurring & certainly seems to be a factor in why a number of people have stated they are now not voting or have changed their vote.
It shouldn't be accepted regardless of the topic being put to vote. Nor should it be dismissed as whinging when it is called out. If the same gloating & bullying behaviour was exhibited by the no side or any side in any vote, I would be just as critical & would hope you would be the same.
I'm trivialising nothing; I'm placing it into the context of the real issues and consequences of this referendum.
And the 'No' side is at the very least just as culpable as the 'Yes' side in terms of how they've run their own campaigns. To say that the 'Yes' side's behaviour has pushed your vote to the 'No' side is simply a cop-out and a simple excuse you can throw about in order to vote 'No' and feel somehow like it's justified.
If people really want to change their vote on the grounds of how the campaigns have been run; they should be refusing to vote.
If people want to vote 'No'; they should be honest with themselves and others as to why... not using some pathetic excuse about campaigners or social commentators rubbing them up the wrong way.
Likewise if people want to vote 'Yes'; they should be doing it not because of the 'No' sides tactics but because they believe in the merits of a 'Yes' vote.0 -
You assert that freedom of speech is now unnecessary for democracy?
Lies are exposed through a balanced exchange of views, reasonable people are not easily deceived against their better judgement when both sides get a say.
Silencing dissent is a hallmark of totalitarianism. That's what nervous yes voters are afraid of! They want to see this pass but not at the cost of alienating large sections of society and attacking democratic fairness. A yes vote could feel like an endorsement of this intolerant ideology that has found a perfect vehicle to hijack and ideal human shields to deflect criticism.
And you can't understand why people feel very uncomfortable?
What?
I'm talking about banning misinformation.
like, bringing up surrogacy or that a child needs "a mother and a father".
This isn't reasoned argument or a challenge. It aims to create strong emotional reactions and it has succeeded, sadly.0 -
I'm trivialising nothing; I'm placing it into the context of the real issues and consequences of this referendum.
And the 'No' side is at the very least just as culpable as the 'Yes' side in terms of how they've run their own campaigns. To say that the 'Yes' side's behaviour has pushed your vote to the 'No' side is simply a cop-out and a simple excuse you can throw about in order to vote 'No' and feel somehow like it's justified.
If people really want to change their vote on the grounds of how the campaigns have been run; they should be refusing to vote.
If people want to vote 'No'; they should be honest with themselves and others as to why... not using some pathetic excuse about campaigners or social commentators rubbing them up the wrong way.
Likewise if people want to vote 'Yes'; they should be doing it not because of the 'No' sides tactics but because they believe in the merits of a 'Yes' vote.
Everyone should vote, telling people not to vote is a bug bear of mine. It's your civic duty to vote0 -
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I'm trivialising nothing; I'm placing it into the context of the real issues and consequences of this referendum.
And the 'No' side is at the very least just as culpable as the 'Yes' side in terms of how they've run their own campaigns. To say that the 'Yes' side's behaviour has pushed your vote to the 'No' side is simply a cop-out and a simple excuse you can throw about in order to vote 'No' and feel somehow like it's justified.
If people really want to change their vote on the grounds of how the campaigns have been run; they should be refusing to vote.
If people want to vote 'No'; they should be honest with themselves and others as to why... not using some pathetic excuse about campaigners or social commentators rubbing them up the wrong way.
Likewise if people want to vote 'Yes'; they should be doing it not because of the 'No' sides tactics but because they believe in the merits of a 'Yes' vote.
I have not expressed my vote nor endorsed support for the actions of the No campaign. I've simply criticised the conduct,
I suggest you read past the first line of the post you are quoting. You have simply repeated yourself & are ironically exhibitng the exact behaviour I've just provided reasons for why some on the fence voters seem to feel turned off supporting a yes vote.0
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