Told that apartment is in negative equity after signing contract!

jayjay2010

Hey guys

I went sale agreed at the start of April, things were going smoothly enough (I had a few delays on my side with my bank) but things were looking great last week, I signed my side of the contract and paid 10% deposit. The vendor apparently signed his side of the contract this Monday (4 days ago) and my solicitor still hasn't received it as of today.

I rang the estate agent and they have advised that the contacts have been signed by both parties, however the vendor is waiting for a letter from the bank as the apartment is in negative equity.

I'm hoping to hear something early next week, but realistically how long more will I be waiting? There is a similar property that I am interested in but I won't be bidding on it until I'm sure this isn't going to happen....:(

Miamiheat

You signed so you are in their hands.

JimmyMW

jayjay2010 wrote: »

Hey guys

I went sale agreed at the start of April, things were going smoothly enough (I had a few delays on my side with my bank) but things were looking great last week, I signed my side of the contract and paid 10% deposit. The vendor apparently signed his side of the contract this Monday (4 days ago) and my solicitor still hasn't received it as of today.

I rang the estate agent and they have advised that the contacts have been signed by both parties, however the vendor is waiting for a letter from the bank as the apartment is in negative equity.

I'm hoping to hear something early next week, but realistically how long more will I be waiting? There is a similar property that I am interested in but I won't be bidding on it until I'm sure this isn't going to happen....:(

Your solicitor F**ked up, they should have had requested all that before you signed anything. I would be having a serious chat with them on Monday if I were you, never sign anything until all paperwork is sorted.

gaius c

Good luck sorting this out but your solicitor has made a balls of this.

jayjay2010

Should my solicitor have noticed this before I signed anything? As far as I know everything is done: contracts signed, deposits paid, fee note raised with all costs and charges etc. The next step was to receive contracts and get the cheque requested from the bank and I pay the balance then get the keys!

My solicitor said to me a few weeks ago "this apartment doesn't seem to be in negative equity so thats all fine"

What a joke! I literally rang the estate agent and asked what the delay is and they said casually "oh, the apartment is in negative equity and the vendor's solicitor is waiting for a letter from the bank that should come early next week". She then said this won't delay anything and the deal should close by the end of May (2 weeks).

So what's the story now? Do I sue my solicitor for not informing me of this? If I refuse to give more funds will I lose the 10% deposit that I have paid???

Chijj

Your solicitor missed the boat on this one. I would be having words.

In reality the bank may very well allow the sale however the fact that bank consent was waiting the purchaser (you) should have been made aware of same.

If it falls through you could have recourse due to full facts not being disclosed.

Good luck op

Miamiheat

You signed so unless something magical happens and they can't hand over the keys to you I would assume they will return your funds.

First of all before you have a panic attack call again and make sure they were not confused about the property in question => every time i ring an EA office they seem confused (they do usually have a few things going own). Have them reverify the address and that they understand for sure which transaction you are inquiring about. The seller solicitor themselves could be working on another case and have given the wrong answer.

Secondly, i would find very hard to believe that a fact like this would be hidden all the time. Seller has no chance of selling if the bank does not approve: worst case scenario it could be that seller got some kind of informal clearance to sell and are now waiting for a detailed document that is more oficial.

Don't ruin your weekend over this yet.

jayjay2010

Miamiheat wrote: »

You signed so unless something magical happens and they can't hand over the keys to you I would assume they will return your funds.

First of all before you have a panic attack call again and make sure they were not confused about the property in question => every time i ring an EA office they seem confused (they do usually have a few things going own). Have them reverify the address and that they understand for sure which transaction you are inquiring about. The seller solicitor themselves could be working on another case and have given the wrong answer.

Secondly, i would find very hard to believe that a fact like this would be hidden all the time. Seller has no chance of selling if the bank does not approve: worst case scenario it could be that seller got some kind of informal clearance to sell and are now waiting for a detailed document that is more oficial.

Don't ruin your weekend over this yet.

Thanks for your reply, makes me feel a bit more positive. I am shocked that it was the estate agent informing me of the negative equity and not my solicitor.

In reality though, should the EA have this letter from the bank by now or would this letter only come after contracts are signed? Like is it normal that the letter is ''on its way'' and that the vendor doesn't already have it even before listing the apartment up for sale?

...seems strange that last minute, literally last minute, I'm told its in negative equity.

The_Conductor

Normal practice is the person who wants to sell the property- approaches the lender, agrees that the property can be put on the market- and comes up with a mutually agreeable manner for dealing with the negative equity aspect of the sale. As the bank has a lien on the property- it cannot be sold without their agreement.

In this instance- the seller has signed contracts on the house- and has now gone to the bank telling them the sale is a fait acompli- and sign on the dotted line........

The bank has absolutely no obligation to entertain this poor behaviour.

Normally a credit team meet every 4-6 weeks to debate any cases like this- and decide on an appropriate course of action (in Bank of Ireland its a monthly meeting- I'm guessing its similar elsewhere).

If the vendor has signed contracts before getting the agreement of the bank (to the sale and also how to treat the negative equity)- its possible the bank may drag their feet- or indeed, may baulk and impose punitive terms on the seller that they won't agree to- relating to how the negative equity is to be dealt with.

Its not a nice situation for you to be in- as you have no idea whats happening.

I would be rining my solicitor first thing on Monday morning- reminding him that his due diligence obviously wasn't done- and rinigng him daily for an update. It sounds like the solicitor took a chance on it- a chance where 19 times out of 20 they'd have been fine- but they've gotten caught out big time here.

It may all work out- and in a reasonably prompt manner- however, you have nothing to go on- and it could just as likely drag for months and months- its in the lap of the Gods- you have no idea how its going to pan out.

jayjay2010

The_Conductor wrote: »

Normal practice is the person who wants to sell the property- approaches the lender, agrees that the property can be put on the market- and comes up with a mutually agreeable manner for dealing with the negative equity aspect of the sale. As the bank has a lien on the property- it cannot be sold without their agreement.

In this instance- the seller has signed contracts on the house- and has now gone to the bank telling them the sale is a fait acompli- and sign on the dotted line........

The bank has absolutely no obligation to entertain this poor behaviour.

Normally a credit team meet every 4-6 weeks to debate any cases like this- and decide on an appropriate course of action (in Bank of Ireland its a monthly meeting- I'm guessing its similar elsewhere).

If the vendor has signed contracts before getting the agreement of the bank (to the sale and also how to treat the negative equity)- its possible the bank may drag their feet- or indeed, may baulk and impose punitive terms on the seller that they won't agree to- relating to how the negative equity is to be dealt with.

Its not a nice situation for you to be in- as you have no idea whats happening.

I would be rining my solicitor first thing on Monday morning- reminding him that his due diligence obviously wasn't done- and rinigng him daily for an update. It sounds like the solicitor took a chance on it- a chance where 19 times out of 20 they'd have been fine- but they've gotten caught out big time here.

It may all work out- and in a reasonably prompt manner- however, you have nothing to go on- and it could just as likely drag for months and months- its in the lap of the Gods- you have no idea how its going to pan out.

Thanks for your reply. If both parties (me and the vendor) agree to cancel the contract (or pretend it never existed ) is there a way I can come out of this deal?

I am happy with the apartment and I think (I pray to god!!!) it will all be ok. I mean the solicitor is happy enough just waiting for the contract to come to her. I will be ringing her first thing Monday morning to find out what the heck is actually going on.

Even if I had to wait months and months and months.....is the apartment guaranteed to be mine? Like is it possible that I will lose the deposit and not get the house because of the vendor and my solicitor being incompetent???

Millem

Their bank must of agreed to the sale as I presume they released the deeds?

Your solictor should/would of done a credit check on the address to see how much was owed on the house....this would of been at pre contract stage.

The_Conductor

Millem wrote: »

Their bank must of agreed to the sale as I presume they released the deeds?

Your solictor should/would of done a credit check on the address to see how much was owed on the house....this would of been at pre contract stage.

I really don't think so. It sounds as though the vendor 'neglected' to let people know of this part of the equation- though I guess we may never know.

jayjay2010

Millem wrote: »

Their bank must of agreed to the sale as I presume they released the deeds?

Your solictor should/would of done a credit check on the address to see how much was owed on the house....this would of been at pre contract stage.

Here's what I have so far:

.contracts signed by both parties (my solicitor is waiting on the contract back)
.my solicitor has sent me a detailed breakdown of costs etc
.EA told me last Monday (4 days ago) that the deal should close within 2 weeks
.I literally have done everything/signed everything I needed to

My solicitor was happy enough to wait 4 days without querying anything with the vendor. I didn't want to wait so I rang the EA who rang me back and said "the contracts are signed but the vendors solicitor is just waiting on a letter from the bank which your solicitor should receive early next week as this property is in negative equity"

jayjay2010

....oh also, what happens if my bank decide to take back their approval? Do I just lose all the money I've put forward

The_Conductor

I wouldn't even go down the road of trying to evaluate all the 'what-ifs'. Talk to your solicitor on Monday. Take it easy over the weekend. Relax. Don't worry. If the other party breaches the contract (which it sounds possible)- then you'd get your deposit back- alongside the possibility of compensation for breach of contract.

Now- relax- take things easy- have a peaceful weekend- and ring your solicitor on Monday.

jayjay2010

The_Conductor wrote: »

I wouldn't even go down the road of trying to evaluate all the 'what-ifs'. Talk to your solicitor on Monday. Take it easy over the weekend. Relax. Don't worry. If the other party breaches the contract (which it sounds possible)- then you'd get your deposit back- alongside the possibility of compensation for breach of contract.

Now- relax- take things easy- have a peaceful weekend- and ring your solicitor on Monday.

Ok, I'll relax and speak to her on Monday. I'll keep you all posted!

Millem

Millem wrote: »

Their bank must of (sic) agreed to the sale as I presume they released the deeds?

This was my impression of the conveyancing process as well. My understanding is that the contracts shouldnt be prepared until the title is released by the bank...and both solicitors should have been in a position to verify this before you signed. Maybe somebody knowledgeable could verify this?

Perhaps the issue is a judgement somebody else placed on the property?

jayjay2010

Deleted User wrote: »

This was my impression of the conveyancing process as well. My understanding is that the contracts shouldnt be prepared until the title is released by the bank...and both solicitors should have been in a position to verify this before you signed. Maybe somebody knowledgeable could verify this?

Perhaps the issue is a judgement somebody else placed on the property?

I rang the estate agent this morning -the property definitely IS in negative equity but they are saying that they hadn't been advised of this earlier. All they could do was apologize but they said the vendor has assured them that the letter of approval will come ''early this week''.

I rang my solicitor straight after and she did sound a bit surprised but seemed to brush it off saying it is a very common thing to happen and that this happens with nearly every case. A bit disappointing that she seemed to brush me off but she said she will put a call in and get back to me (which normally means I'll hear from her 4 days later )

Not too sure what else I can possibly do. I could play the blame game and complain to my solicitor as she didn't advise me of this before signing the contract but I don't think that will make any difference at this stage.....

The_Conductor

I'd put a timeline on it to be honest (depending on just how much you want the house). I'd ring the solicitor- and advise that unless the letter of approval is forthcoming and the sale advanced within 10 working days (be reasonable- but firm)- that you expect the deposit returned, alongside compensation for breach of contract. I would also emphasise that if this is not progressed in the time frame that you *will* be seeking compensation.

The seller could not legally sign a binding contract to sell the property- in the absence of a letter of approval- so their solicitor fúcked up too. By rights the deposit should be released immediately- until such time as they are in a position to sign- which is something they never should have done at the current stage.

Put a timeline on this- draw a line in the sand that you're not willing to cross. You have the other house that you're interested in too- but not in a position to put a bid on, as your deposit is tied up by this numpty.

riclad

Most house s outside dublin are in ne ,
lets say its 20 or 30k,in negative equity .
the seller may have that money saved or may have an agreement to pay the 30k to the bank .
And the seller may be on a high salary.
MY advice is tell ,your solicitor you have a month to get it sorted,
i want a formal letter from the bank ,
Saying the sale will go ahead ,at the price you offered .
The seller could be on a high salary and have a large savings deposit.
The seller may have already made an agreement to pay off the mortgage ,
to the bank,
from his own income, or from savings ,
as long as he gets a buyer to buy the house at a certain price ,
on or below the price you offered .

The_Conductor

Riclad- that is pure speculation.

For the record- most of the properties outside of Dublin- are not in negative equity- the large majority of properties outside of Dublin/Louth/Meath/Kildare- are actually owned outright, free of mortgages altogether.

As to whether or not the seller is on a high salary- its completely immaterial.

IF- its a capital 'IF' they had an agreement with the bank to sell the property at a particular price- they should have procured a letter of approval from the bank- before going down this avenue.

The OP has handed over a full deposit to the vendor- and the vendor does not have the right to sell the property.

The OP and their deposit are in limbo.

The OP is interested in another property- but is unable to bid- as this numpty has tied up their deposit.

I'd be getting unhappier and unhappier by the hour..........

jayjay2010

The_Conductor wrote: »

Riclad- that is pure speculation.

For the record- most of the properties outside of Dublin- are not in negative equity- the large majority of properties outside of Dublin/Louth/Meath/Kildare- are actually owned outright, free of mortgages altogether.

As to whether or not the seller is on a high salary- its completely immaterial.

IF- its a capital 'IF' they had an agreement with the bank to sell the property at a particular price- they should have procured a letter of approval from the bank- before going down this avenue.

The OP has handed over a full deposit to the vendor- and the vendor does not have the right to sell the property.

The OP and their deposit are in limbo.

The OP is interested in another property- but is unable to bid- as this numpty has tied up their deposit.

I'd be getting unhappier and unhappier by the hour..........

..I'm just gonna wait until this Wednesday and see do I get a call from my solicitor with any update. If not, I will be sending a detailed email with what I expect from her *ie: what you said in the above.

Thanks a million for your support, much appreciated!

Peist2007

jayjay2010 wrote: »

Here's what I have so far:

.contracts signed by both parties (my solicitor is waiting on the contract back)
.my solicitor has sent me a detailed breakdown of costs etc
.EA told me last Monday (4 days ago) that the deal should close within 2 weeks
.I literally have done everything/signed everything I needed to

My solicitor was happy enough to wait 4 days without querying anything with the vendor. I didn't want to wait so I rang the EA who rang me back and said "the contracts are signed but the vendors solicitor is just waiting on a letter from the bank which your solicitor should receive early next week as this property is in negative equity"

Not sure why you are worried here. You have signed a contract to buy a house. If the Vendor cannot complete (ie if his Bank wont play ball with him and refuse to consent to the sale or if they try to put punitive conditions on dealing with the negative equity after the sale that the Vendor cannot abide with) then you have recourse under the Contract for sale for return of your deposit and damages.

From your Solicitor's perspective, you signing the Contracts wasnt a risk. Worst case scenario is this and you have a signed Contract. Either the Vendor completes and you get the house or he is in breach. Depending on the Vendor Solicitor's advice to his own client pre-execution of contracts, it is he who should be worried.

Nothing for you to worry about OP apart from your deposit monies potentially being tied up for a short period (while the Vendors promise they can get this letter etc). If the other side have not disclosed this pre-Contract then i am sure your Solicitor will push it on to closing and put pressure on the other side to complete.

ForstalDave

Peist2007 wrote: »

Not sure why you are worried here. You have signed a contract to buy a house. If the Vendor cannot complete (ie if his Bank wont play ball with him and refuse to consent to the sale or if they try to put punitive conditions on dealing with the negative equity after the sale that the Vendor cannot abide with) then you have recourse under the Contract for sale for return of your deposit and damages.

From your Solicitor's perspective, you signing the Contracts wasnt a risk. Worst case scenario is this and you have a signed Contract. Either the Vendor completes and you get the house or he is in breach. Depending on the Vendor Solicitor's advice to his own client pre-execution of contracts, it is he who should be worried.

Nothing for you to worry about OP apart from your deposit monies potentially being tied up for a short period (while the Vendors promise they can get this letter etc). If the other side have not disclosed this pre-Contract then i am sure your Solicitor will push it on to closing and put pressure on the other side to complete.

Its worth nothing the Vendor does not have access to your deposit, this would normally be held by his solicitor until the deal is complete

zagmund

Peist2007 wrote: »

Nothing for you to worry about OP apart from your deposit monies potentially being tied up for a short period

I think you mean "actually being tied up". The OP no longer has their money, or the use of it. They have a contract which may be signed by the other party, or may not be. They can't enter into any other contracts until this situation is clarified. There's nothing to indicate that the bank will clarify it quickly or not. Earlier the OP indicated that they didn't actually have a copy of the signed contract - "contracts signed by both parties (my solicitor is waiting on the contract back)"

z

mad m

jayjay2010 wrote: »

..I'm just gonna wait until this Wednesday and see do I get a call from my solicitor with any update. If not, I will be sending a detailed email with what I expect from her *ie: what you said in the above.

Thanks a million for your support, much appreciated!

Id be firing that email off straight away if I was you, your solicitor works for you not the other way around.

Peist2007

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd put a timeline on it to be honest (depending on just how much you want the house). I'd ring the solicitor- and advise that unless the letter of approval is forthcoming and the sale advanced within 10 working days (be reasonable- but firm)- that you expect the deposit returned, alongside compensation for breach of contract. I would also emphasise that if this is not progressed in the time frame that you *will* be seeking compensation.

The seller could not legally sign a binding contract to sell the property- in the absence of a letter of approval- so their solicitor fúcked up too. By rights the deposit should be released immediately- until such time as they are in a position to sign- which is something they never should have done at the current stage.

Put a timeline on this- draw a line in the sand that you're not willing to cross. You have the other house that you're interested in too- but not in a position to put a bid on, as your deposit is tied up by this numpty.

My guess would be that you are not a lawyer? Because the above timeline etc given Contracts are just signed is completely unrealistic and unworkable. The Law Society recommends there should be 4 weeks between the date of execution of Contracts and closing. Making 10 day demands after Contracts are signed is unrealistic and will simply antagonise the situation.

OP - your Solicitor will send to the other side Requisitions on Title which will need to be replied to. This is normal conveyancing practice after Contracts are signed. These replies may throw up further enquiries (rejoinders) that need to be made. Instruct your Solicitor to stick to the conveyancing guidelines. When that point has passed ie we are 4/5 weeks on and all outstanding matters leading to closing are finalised apart from the Bank consent, your Solicitor will then be in a position to serve what is called a Completion Notice on the other side. This document is the basis for any subsequent application that needs to be made for breach of Contract. The Completion Notice will give 28 days to complete and must be served when a party fails to close a transaction.

As i said, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Vendor and his Solicitor are working the Bank all day everyday until this issue is resolved. Both are left exposed by this. You are not.

Peist2007

zagmund wrote: »

I think you mean "actually being tied up". The OP no longer has their money, or the use of it. They have a contract which may be signed by the other party, or may not be. They can't enter into any other contracts until this situation is clarified. There's nothing to indicate that the bank will clarify it quickly or not.

Earlier the OP indicated that they didn't actually have a copy of the signed contract - "contracts signed by both parties (my solicitor is waiting on the contract back)"

z

I just work on the assumption that he wants this particular property. He did sign a contract binding himself in to buying it.

Peist2007

zagmund wrote: »

I think you mean "actually being tied up". The OP no longer has their money, or the use of it. They have a contract which may be signed by the other party, or may not be. They can't enter into any other contracts until this situation is clarified. There's nothing to indicate that the bank will clarify it quickly or not. Earlier the OP indicated that they didn't actually have a copy of the signed contract - "contracts signed by both parties (my solicitor is waiting on the contract back)"

z

Ahhhhh sorry i thought the Contracts were exchanged. In that case i would be writing a letter today giving until close of business on Friday next for one part executed Contract is returned or deal is off.

Sudan

Hey man,

here is how it works.

the seller HAS to seek permission from the bank before he can put the property up for sale for permission to released the charge held on his property when he is in negative equity. the sellers solicitor should have disclosed this when the contract was being drafted up.

upon receiving the full amount due for the property the seller is legally obliged to hand over the property but the bank are not obliged to remove the charge over that property. if it was known before the sale that the property was in negative equity and the solicitor and the seller did not disclose this at the time then they are liable. the seller has to cover all costs.

you're very well protected in this case so basically, talk to your solicitor and hold tight. property can/will be yours upon payment and you wont have to worry about paying debt he owes on it

Peist2007

Sudan wrote: »

Hey man,

here is how it works.

the seller HAS to seek permission from the bank before he can put the property up for sale for permission to released the charge held on his property when he is in negative equity. the sellers solicitor should have disclosed this when the contract was being drafted up.

upon receiving the full amount due for the property the seller is legally obliged to hand over the property but the bank are not obliged to remove the charge over that property. if it was known before the sale that the property was in negative equity and the solicitor and the seller did not disclose this at the time then they are liable. the seller has to cover all costs.

you're very well protected in this case so basically, talk to your solicitor and hold tight. property can/will be yours upon payment and you wont have to worry about paying debt he owes on it

The only way that the Bank's charge would have an effect on the OP would be if he had signed Contracts on notice of this issue. As that is not the case he does not have to complete on closing and can demand the title the general conditions of the Contract for Sale state he should get. If theVendor says he cannot comply with that request then a Completion Notice should swiftly follow.

You're right though. The OP is worried and shouldnt be. He has a lot of conveyancing and contract law on his side. The main danger is they will try to string him along and not return one part Contract until they hear from their Bank. Which leaves the OP in limbo so pressure should be applied in that respect by his Solicitor.