New rules on CIDs?

mirrorwall14

So I'm just curious how this is playing out for everyone? We've got a situation where three positions are being almagamated into one larger post this summer in the readvertisement so two will be out of a job. And does anyone know if the old rules apply, that if one of those three gets it then they would be CIDable at the end of next year or would it be the end of the following year since it's essentially a brand new full time position being advertised?

sitstill

My understanding is that if one of those 3 people gets the job, they would be due a CID at the end of the year, assuming they then were offered hours for a third year in the school and their CID would be based on the hours of their second year.

r93kaey5p2izun

Tough in the short term but the move towards one proper decent job in place of three bitty contracts would seem a good thing overall.

In my school the changes mean two people covering career breaks will be given full CID next year, which is great news. They are so lucky to have the career break hours this year as these are shifted around amongst part-timers every year and do not relate to subject qualifications or anything.

The knock-on effect has been that all but one job share, and career breaks, have been refused for next year stating new circular as reason. Causing warfare at the moment!

mirrorwall14

Definitely a good thing in terms of splitting contracts but we do still have some short hour contracts being advertised and an odd one in that career break/maternity/job share hours are all short of the totals they should be. Eg the job share is two job shares making a 22hr position that's being advertised as 18

sitstill

Looking at jobs on education posts at the moment, the majority of them seem to be with decent hours and quite a few are 22 hours. It hasn't been like that in quite a while.

evolving_doors

sitstill wrote: »

Looking at jobs on education posts at the moment, the majority of them seem to be with decent hours and quite a few are 22 hours. It hasn't been like that in quite a while.

Shhhhh, don't tell anyone. They're probably gone by now anyway...{ furiously typing the webpage address now...}

Frankly frank

If you have a cid, what happens if applying for position in another school and successful? Are you put back on a new contract ...does cid rollover??

Frankly frank

Micheal Scrawny Music wrote: »

Tough in the short term but the move towards one proper decent job in place of three bitty contracts would seem a good thing overall.

In my school the changes mean two people covering career breaks will be given full CID next year, which is great news. They are so lucky to have the career break hours this year as these are shifted around amongst part-timers every year and do not relate to subject qualifications or anything.

The knock-on effect has been that all but one job share, and career breaks, have been refused for next year stating new circular as reason. Causing warfare at the moment!

How do you mean hours are shifted around, what about contracts?

evolving_doors

sitstill wrote: »

Looking at jobs on education posts at the moment, the majority of them seem to be with decent hours and quite a few are 22 hours. It hasn't been like that in quite a while.

Ya there's a few there alright. I seem to remember a few of those same subjects offered in the same schools a while ago!

Would it be correct in assuming that the 2 year CID 'reinterview/readvertise' scenario is taking place now? So if a teacher is applying for a CID their 'job' has to be advertised (hence why there's a lot of fixed-terms!).

r93kaey5p2izun

Frankly frank wrote: »

How do you mean hours are shifted around, what about contracts?

All the "extra" hours (career break, job share, NBSS etc) are just divied up among part timers regardless of subjects. One could have job share for the Irish teacher one year and career break for the PE teacher the next - all the while teaching totally different (your own) subjects. It's a complete shambles but those whose contracts happened to say career break this year have lucked out! BOM determined not to be caught out again however - no career breaks allowed anymore (one exception for father of dying child). Job shares all cancelled/refused too citing Pat King's comments regarding implementation of new circular even though they are not mentioned in document.

joebloggs32

Micheal Scrawny Music wrote: »

All the "extra" hours (career break, job share, NBSS etc) are just divied up among part timers regardless of subjects. One could have job share for the Irish teacher one year and career break for the PE teacher the next - all the while teaching totally different (your own) subjects. It's a complete shambles but those whose contracts happened to say career break this year have lucked out! BOM determined not to be caught out again however - no career breaks allowed anymore (one exception for father of dying child). Job shares all cancelled/refused too citing Pat King's comments regarding implementation of new circular even though they are not mentioned in document.

Your BOM is acting the maggot. If someone is awarded a CID due to someone being on a career break they will only be employed in that school until the original teacher returns. Then they will be subject to redeployment

Alqua

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Would it be correct in assuming that the 2 year CID 'reinterview/readvertise' scenario is taking place now? So if a teacher is applying for a CID their 'job' has to be advertised (hence why there's a lot of fixed-terms!).

Definitely lots of this - from speaking to people in different schools a lot of people have to be re-interviewed, includes anyone in the first year of an RPT. Our school has several jobs advertised at the minute and only one of them is 'real'.

r93kaey5p2izun

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Your BOM is acting the maggot. If someone is awarded a CID due to someone being on a career break they will only be employed in that school until the original teacher returns. Then they will be subject to redeployment

Yes, there is an almighty row afoot at the moment and DES and Union have confirmed that the circular should not affect applications for career break and has nothing whatsoever to do with job share. Don't know how it will all be resolved though.

rainbowtrout

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Your BOM is acting the maggot. If someone is awarded a CID due to someone being on a career break they will only be employed in that school until the original teacher returns. Then they will be subject to redeployment

Not necessarily. If there is nowhere to redeploy the newer teacher, they'll have to keep them. It could result in another teacher that is not CID being let go to accommodate the new CID teacher and the teacher returning from career break. The report that came out last year that said the two year CID would be implemented immediately and that in the medium term (and hasn't been done yet) that the teacher returning from career break would be the one to be redeployed and the newer teacher kept on.

I welcome shorter CIDs but I'm skeptical on how they will pan out when they are awarded to a teacher who is covering another teacher's job, so essentially the job is not newly created.

sitstill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not necessarily. If there is nowhere to redeploy the newer teacher, they'll have to keep them. It could result in another teacher that is not CID being let go to accommodate the new CID teacher and the teacher returning from career break. The report that came out last year that said the two year CID would be implemented immediately and that in the medium term (and hasn't been done yet) that the teacher returning from career break would be the one to be redeployed and the newer teacher kept on.

I welcome shorter CIDs but I'm skeptical on how they will pan out when they are awarded to a teacher who is covering another teacher's job, so essentially the job is not newly created.

Any idea on when the 'medium term' will be and they will redeploy those returning from career break?

Moody_mona

Frankly frank wrote: »

If you have a cid, what happens if applying for position in another school and successful? Are you put back on a new contract ...does cid rollover??

No, you forfeit your CID and have to work it up again.

joebloggs32

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not necessarily. If there is nowhere to redeploy the newer teacher, they'll have to keep them. It could result in another teacher that is not CID being let go to accommodate the new CID teacher and the teacher returning from career break. The report that came out last year that said the two year CID would be implemented immediately and that in the medium term (and hasn't been done yet) that the teacher returning from career break would be the one to be redeployed and the newer teacher kept on.

I welcome shorter CIDs but I'm skeptical on how they will pan out when they are awarded to a teacher who is covering another teacher's job, so essentially the job is not newly created.

It is not the returning one who will be redeployed by my reading of the circular.

rainbowtrout

sitstill wrote: »

Any idea on when the 'medium term' will be and they will redeploy those returning from career break?

No, there has been no circular about that aspect yet. My own opinion is that if the teacher covering career break is covering the break long enough to get a CID then they will retain the position. That's how I'd imagine it will pan out.

rainbowtrout

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is not the returning one who will be redeployed by my reading of the circular.

I know that, but the recommendation in the Ward Report is in the long term. The immediate term is for the new teacher to be put on the redeployment panel if necessary. So it might happen a year or two down the road.

I recommend that consideration be given to changing the terms and conditions of career
breaks in future in order to provide that it is the teacher on career break who is placed on the
Redeployment Panel upon resumption of employmentafter a designated number of years on
career break. I recommend that a similar provision be incorporated into the terms and
conditions of secondment.

http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Report-to-the-Minister-for-Education-and-Skills-of-the-Chairperson-of-the-Expert-Group-on-Fixed-Term-and-Part-Time-Employment-in-Primary-and-Second-Level-Education-in-Ireland.pdf

man_no_plan

Alqua wrote: »

Definitely lots of this - from speaking to people in different schools a lot of people have to be re-interviewed, includes anyone in the first year of an RPT. Our school has several jobs advertised at the minute and only one of them is 'real'.

They're all real jobs. As in there will be a job there for somebody. It doesn't mean that the person in the job at the minute will get it. Its like a ruthless form of 'performance management'.

If you ask me this circular is bad news in the long run. Tightening up on the short contracts with the three year cid would have been better. Far too easy to shaft people now.

If the provision for giving hours to those in the school rather than to a new person first had been added to the three year CID I think it would have been fairer all round.

Don't forget that an awful lot of now permanent teachers starts off as TWT and were interviewed for their permanent positions after a few years. It worked well before the CID legislation was brought in, that actually had the opposite effect to what was intended and disimproved job security.

Its at least ten years since someone in my school was made permanent. Everyone else is CID after waiting the 4 years, then three now it'll be two!!

A teacher in my school was offered a cid fir full hours from Sept even though she wouldn't be 'entitled' to it for another year. Bottom line is that she's needed next year and would qualify then so why waste time? Its a pity this doesn't happen more often.

rainbowtrout

It's great to hear that there are schools out there that are awarding contracts based on common sense.

I'd be worried that some unscrupulous principals/BOMs/ETBs will just use this reinterview after 1 year thing as a way of getting rid of people for no reason and have a constant conveyor belt of teachers working on 1 year contracts.

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's great to hear that there are schools out there that are awarding contracts based on common sense.

I'd be worried that some unscrupulous principals/BOMs/ETBs will just use this reinterview after 1 year thing as a way of getting rid of people for no reason and have a constant conveyor belt of teachers working on 1 year contracts.

Ya I'm kinda wondering if that why the job in ours was repackaged

man_no_plan

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Ya I'm kinda wondering if that why the job in ours was repackaged

Maybe they're just being sensible. No point having a load of part time people on cid long term when one person is needed

mirrorwall14

man_no_plan wrote: »

Maybe they're just being sensible. No point having a load of part time people on cid long term when one person is needed

True. Having said that ETBs aren't exactly known for the sense of that idea!

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Ya I'm kinda wondering if that why the job in ours was repackaged

To be honest I'd prefer to see 1 person on 18 hours than 3 people on 6 hours and constantly broke. It also gives a realistic expectation of how many jobs are out there rather than a school having a 'staff of 40' but a teacher allocation of 20.

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be honest I'd prefer to see 1 person on 18 hours than 3 people on 6 hours and constantly broke. It also gives a realistic expectation of how many jobs are out there rather than a school having a 'staff of 40' but a teacher allocation of 20.

Oh trust me I would too but given the history of ETBs with contracts it wouldn't actually surprise me to see this job given to someone new and 'more suitable' under the guise of new rules as opposed to any of the current staff in order to avoid CIDs. Rinse and repeat next year.

Then again maybe I'm cynical

Alqua

man_no_plan wrote: »

They're all real jobs. As in there will be a job there for somebody. It doesn't mean that the person in the job at the minute will get it. Its like a ruthless form of 'performance management'

Absolutely - and that is the cruel aspect of the circular. Just in this case, I am pretty sure that the teachers in question are being kept on.

Frankly frank

Moody_mona wrote: »

No, you forfeit your CID and have to work it up again.

So you can't ever move without a swap? Can you be offered permanent any more?

rainbowtrout

Frankly frank wrote: »

So you can't ever move without a swap? Can you be offered permanent any more?

You can move within your ETB and you retain your cid. If you are redeployed you can retain your cid. If you lose your job and apply for a new job you are back to zero

Frankly frank

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You can move within your ETB and you retain your cid. If you are redeployed you can retain your cid. If you lose your job and apply for a new job you are back to zero

Non ETB?

r93kaey5p2izun

Frankly frank wrote: »

Non ETB?

You can't bring your CID with you if you move through your own choice - unless it is within an ETB and with the agreement of head office. Being redeployed you would keep it whether employed by ETB or DES. It's the same as for permanency.

gaiscioch

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You can move within your ETB and you retain your cid. If you are redeployed you can retain your cid. If you lose your job and apply for a new job you are back to zero

Interesting. I know somebody in a non-ETB school who, by virtue of their CID, will be redeployed in the foreseeable future but have decided they'd like to apply for jobs before that simply because they'd rather choose their school than have the Department's two Redeployment directors choose it for them. Having read this it seems like quite a risk, even if doing so makes sense at another level.

rainbowtrout

Frankly frank wrote: »

Non ETB?

No, unless it's through redeployment. Non ETB secondary schools are all independent of each other, with their own individual teacher allocation.

With the ETB, they are your employer not the school, hence being able to carry your CID with you.

rainbowtrout

gaiscioch wrote: »

Interesting. I know somebody in a non-ETB school who, by virtue of their CID, will be redeployed in the foreseeable future but have decided they'd like to apply for jobs before that simply because they'd rather choose their school than have the Department's two Redeployment directors choose it for them. Having read this it seems like quite a risk, even if doing so makes sense at another level.

I suppose it depends on how stable the new job appears to be, if they are offered one. Some teachers wouldn't be able to take the risk (mortgage, kids etc).

inatissy

Yeah I had a CID and gave it up which may have seemed a bit crazy at the time, but after 6-7 years I decided that being stuck on low hours and teaching everything but what I wanted to, it just wasn't worth it.


Anyway, just wondering does anyone know, I started teaching in another school in November 2013,I'm in the same school this year. Since I missed Sept and Oct does that disqualify me from a CID this year and then stuck doing a 3rd year?

Thanks.

chases0102

Folks,

Someone might be able to help me out regarding clarity - I have been onto Union but their advice has been sporadic at best!!

In my second year covering a career break. Teacher is coming back in September. There is potential job in the school for September in my subjects, but hasn't been made clear yet by ETB.

Query is, if, by some chance, I retain a job in my current school but on different hours, am I entitled to CID?

Failing that, am I entitled to anything?!?!

Thanks folks.

rainbowtrout

chases0102 wrote: »

Folks,

Someone might be able to help me out regarding clarity - I have been onto Union but their advice has been sporadic at best!!

In my second year covering a career break. Teacher is coming back in September. There is potential job in the school for September in my subjects, but hasn't been made clear yet by ETB.

Query is, if, by some chance, I retain a job in my current school but on different hours, am I entitled to CID?

Failing that, am I entitled to anything?!?!

Thanks folks.

I would say yes. Two consecutive contracts entitle you to cid. The cid would be based on hours in second year.

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would say yes. Two consecutive contracts entitle you to cid. The cid would be based on hours in second year.

Would it not depend on whether they are retrospectively applying the new rules to old career break contracts? Those two years were not CIDable at the time and the changes to future career breaks haven't been applied yet ASFAIK. I suspect that's why the union are unsure

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Would it not depend on whether they are retrospectively applying the new rules to old career break contracts? Those two years were not CIDable at the time and the changes to future career breaks haven't been applied yet ASFAIK. I suspect that's why the union are unsure

Under old cid rules hours covered belonging to other teachers could be counted for could be counted for cod once they weren't in the final year of cid eligibility

powera24

Hi Guys,

I'm looking for some advise here for my wife, she is quite upset about being refused a CID.
Her story is that she is working 4 continuous years for the ETB (few more years previously in VEC). the last 3 years in the ETB have been in the same school on a contract covering secondment(the teacher went to do home school liaison). Each year she has received a new contract stating she was covering seconment - all 3 contracts were the same except the amount of hours she was contracted for.

So when the recent circular 0024/15 came about she applied for her CID thinking she would get it no problem but was told this week that she was refused because the positon of home school liaison was not a secondment position.

To me it seems very unfair that the ETB will not honor the fact that she was given a contract thats states she is covering secondment - but are now saying - actually its not a secondment position. She is considering going legal and i'm looking to see if there is any stand out reasons why the CTB is right in this situation.

Thanks for your help

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Under old cid rules hours covered belonging to other teachers could be counted for could be counted for cod once they weren't in the final year of cid eligibility

Oh sorry mis interpreted, poster still needs to get their own contract in their own hours this year to be CIDable

mirrorwall14

powera24 wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I'm looking for some advise here for my wife, she is quite upset about being refused a CID.
Her story is that she is working 4 continuous years for the ETB (few more years previously in VEC). the last 3 years in the ETB have been in the same school on a contract covering secondment(the teacher went to do home school liaison). Each year she has received a new contract stating she was covering seconment - all 3 contracts were the same except the amount of hours she was contracted for.

So when the recent circular 0024/15 came about she applied for her CID thinking she would get it no problem but was told this week that she was refused because the positon of home school liaison was not a secondment position.

To me it seems very unfair that the ETB will not honor the fact that she was given a contract thats states she is covering secondment - but are now saying - actually its not a secondment position. She is considering going legal and i'm looking to see if there is any stand out reasons why the CTB is right in this situation.

Thanks for your help

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right. Is the teacher out on secondment the home school liaison for the school your wife is working in? If that's the case it's possible that the position has disappeared while the secondment has been ongoing

powera24

Yes the teacher on secondment is acting as home school liaison in the same school. I understand that the position of home school liaison may not be a secondment position but my wife has 3 consecutive contracts where it clearly states she is covering secondment.

rainbowtrout

powera24 wrote: »

Yes the teacher on secondment is acting as home school liaison in the same school. I understand that the position of home school liaison may not be a secondment position but my wife has 3 consecutive contracts where it clearly states she is covering secondment.

I would say tell your wife to contact her union to get advice. That is what they are there for. Particularly if her contracts state 'secondment' on them.

powera24

My wife has an issue with the unions (previously let her down) and is no longer a member. So if we follow up on this it will be through our solicitor. I think she has a case but she wants other opinions before she goes down that road.

rainbowtrout

powera24 wrote: »

My wife has an issue with the unions (previously let her down) and is no longer a member. So if we follow up on this it will be through our solicitor. I think she has a case but she wants other opinions before she goes down that road.

Well if you are tackling it through your solicitor, it would be useful to bring the most recent circulars with you and have a look for labour court cases surrounding CIDs and print out the findings as well. I would say that most teachers bringing cases end up doing so through their union, so perhaps not all solicitors would be familiar with the circulars etc. Bringing them with you would probably save some time.

mirrorwall14

Definitely make sure that your solicitor knows something about teaching because there is a lot of circulars and you could end up paying their research essentially as they try to get up to speed.

Is there any more detail on her contract apart from the word 'secondment'?

rainbowtrout

I have today's TUI magazine in front of me. From Page 8 under 'What is an objective ground? ' it says

Under CL 24/15, covering for a teacher on career break or secondment is no longer considered to be an objective ground for not awarding a CID. Therefore, a teacher, all of whose hours are for the purposes of covering for a teacher on career break (or secondment) acquires an entitlement to a CID following 'a period of continuous employment in excess of two years' in those hours.

I think the fact that the word secondment was used in the contract strengthens your wife's case.


A teacher in my school was turned down for a transfer. The ad for various subjects for our ETB came out this week along with her rejection. Her subjects were on the list. She rang enquiring, they said they were just forming a panel. She asked if she could transfer to one of those jobs if they came up. She was told she would have to apply for the job like everyone else and that she would lose her CID if she took the job, which is bull. I am very distrustful of our ETB.

powera24

Yes i agree that due to the wording of her contract she would have a strong case. I will get her to bring the 3 copies of her contract and the circulars to the solicitor for advice.

Besides the details of the contract she is working as a teacher for 10 years and its about time she gets some permanent! The school have already told her that she will definately be offered hours next year as she has become a valuable member of the staff - but she deserves more then a rolling promise at this stage. The staff has a number of non qualified teachers fulfilling full time teaching positions, this is something the ETB needs to sort out

Janey B

I started year 1 of an RPT contract last September. I understand with the new circular that the hours have to be advertised and interviews arranged etc. and am fine with that. However, today I received a letter stating that due to the new circular my contract will expire at the end of the school year on May 29th!! This was news to me, no pay during the summer!!! I checked my contract and the termination date states August 31st. Does this new circular 24/2015 now mean that all teachers who started RPT contracts last September now won't get paid during the summer, contrary to what is stated in the their employment contract??? Surely this can not be. I have had contracts in schools before this and have always been paid during the summer. Do people realise the new circular will affect them in this way? I was so upset to learn I won't be getting paid this summer. Unbelievable!

inatissy

Well then they will have to pay our holiday at the end in bulk. But they have yo pay holiday pay, they have taken a percentage out of our hourly rate.