S506 - Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken - Have Read the Books

Stone Deaf 4evr

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

I await correction, but I'm almost 100% positive that the books confirmed he was dead. Biter (i think) turned up with his horse and attacked Brienne?

I haven't read the books in 2+ years and some of the finer details are sketchy, but I felt there were hints that he had survived and was now seeing his days as a gravedigger in the Quiet Isles.

MrWalsh

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

I await correction, but I'm almost 100% positive that the books confirmed he was dead. Biter (i think) turned up with his horse and attacked Brienne?

Gravedigger, Quiet Isle. Awaiting the Clegane Showdown!

froog

the show seems polished, well paced and realistic when they follow the source material closely. sadly when they go off on their own tangents (and i agree they have to by the way) it ends up looking amateurish and even cartoony like the ridiculous dorne caper.

tommy2bad

A lot of stuff in the books is in hints, ambiguous wordings and stuff like that, I sometimes suspect GRRM is keeping options open rather than hiding his cards. Still it makes the guessing game fun.

Is it just me or are people aging at odd rates? Marcella seems a lot older than when she left for Dorn. Thomin has grown up fast too while Aria seems to not have aged a day at times. How long is this supposed to be since poor old Edard was killed

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I don't know how I feel about Sansa's scene. I mean realistically, things were only going to happen one way, both because of the society it's set in and who Ramsey is. That said, it didn't need to be shown. Theon starts to leave, Ramsey tells him to stay, cut. If there turns out to be some huge payoff for it fair enough, but I honestly don't have faith in the show to do that anymore, and I hope it's a payoff for Sansa that chimes with the development of the character so far, not just payoff in the sense that it's a turning point for Theon and he swoops in to rescue her. If it's just to ram down our throats that Ramsey is horrible...yeah, we all got that several flayings ago.

Dave_The_Sheep

Oh, it wasn't that bad.

I had heard some people talking about it (the final scene) beforehand and was expecting something horrible. I quite like Ramsay's character - he's a total psycho and obviously a asshole, but that's who he is. He's not trying to be anyone else. No pretenses there. Maybe it's because I've hated the Sansa character for so long (and still do, both books and TV) that I just don't give a **** what happens to her. In for a penny in for a pound with her.

Also, it's a medieval-fantasy show. Medieval society wasn't exactly a bastion of nicety and as someone pointed out, it wasn't anything approaching rape in those times to have sex with your wife against her will. Maybe that's what has people so riled up.

The Cerscei character, they've done so well. I hate her (more than Sansa actually) so much - they're really building up to some payoff there. It's not quite at Joffrey levels yet, but we're getting there, slowly.

Overall though, quite the poor episode. I'd echo what most have said - Dorne is just badly done. Very much at odds with the rest of the shows production values and general style. Pity.

On an final note, Bronn getting cut by one of the snakes. It was odd that they focused on it, I'm wondering if it was poisoned and they're lining up killing him off. Probably against Areo.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I don't think it's how violent or graphic it was that's annoying people, it's that they're invested in the character, they like her, and it's a regressive narrative move for her. Dany's scene in Season 1 left that in the shade but we barely knew her.

Edit: Yes, Dorne was a mess. Those are some terrible actresses.

Peregrine

I really didn't like the Sand Snakes.

Dave_The_Sheep

Gabrielle Fierce Spaceman wrote: »

I don't think it's how violent or graphic it was that's annoying people, it's that they're invested in the character, they like her, and it's a regressive narrative move for her. Dany's scene in Season 1 left that in the shade but we barely knew her.

Maybe it's because I'm not invested in the character at all.

Ever since the Baker's Boy scene, no time for her at all. If Joffrey had taken her fathers head off the pike and beaten her around the head with it, I wouldn't have cared.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Seemed a bit slow for me this week. I know a good bit happened but it just all seemed so dull. Lots of arya, think that could have been cut down. The King's landing stuff was great though, hopefully more of that next week. It annoys me a bit that they have so much to get through and yet waste time on storylines like the greyworm love story. Pointless and doesnt make any sense at all.

Barna77

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

No Missandworm this episode I'm thankful for small mercies.

A million times yes.

kingshankly wrote: »

If people are disgusted and dismayed by Sansa's rape scene then there watching the wrong show
Was a lot tamer than I expected was expecting theon to be more involved like he was in the book with jeyne poole

I had read about it and i was expecting something worse. We've seen worse!

duploelabs

viztopia wrote: »

Is it me or is house Bolton the only house that hasn't lost anyone yet?

Locke, but he's no family member. Then again neither has the Frey's or the Greyjoys

Mickeroo

tommy2bad wrote: »

A lot of stuff in the books is in hints, ambiguous wordings and stuff like that, I sometimes suspect GRRM is keeping options open rather than hiding his cards. Still it makes the guessing game fun.

Is it just me or are people aging at odd rates? Marcella seems a lot older than when she left for Dorn. Thomin has grown up fast too while Aria seems to not have aged a day at times. How long is this supposed to be since poor old Edard was killed

I'm guessing it's at least a couple of years since Ed's death, time moves quick in the show with weeks or months passing between scenes a lot of the time (most obvious by how quickly characters seem to travel around the country).

Wouldn't read too much into Myrcella and Tommen ageing though, it was purely because they needed older actors to stop any romantic scenes seeming too inappropriate for the audience.

celica00

Finally watched it now too.
I must say...i thought the last scene would be a lot worse after reading the opinions on here.
But in the end I found it not so bad at all..i mean of course the whole lot is bad and sad for her but after I read on here first I thought it would be extremely violent etc but what happened was to be expected. the only uncomfortable unexpected thing for her was that Theon had to watch I suppose.

the rest was alright I suppose, didnt find that episode too great.

2ndcoming

MrWalsh wrote: »

Gravedigger, Quiet Isle. Awaiting the Clegane Showdown!

Cleganebowl. Get hype.

tHE vAGGABOND

Not posted in this forum before, read the books a couple of times]. Generally liked the tv series thus far, no issue with it going away from the books etc

But watched episodes 5 and 6 last night and really was left thinking that same thought someone used on page one of this thread, that its really turning into Xena style soap opera, except with added titillation. The writing and some of the plot arc's are insane. Jamie and Bronn plot just stupid, no way they would get close to key Dorne royalty.

There are some good plot arc's and the base story is great, but there is so much utter rubbish and terrible dialog this season, wonder if key members of script team left or something?

granty1987

duploelabs wrote: »

Locke, but he's no family member. Then again neither has the Frey's or the Greyjoys

Has Balon died in the tv series?

Apart from this, the Greyjoy family have lost a member... of sorts

Peregrine

granty1987 wrote: »

Has Balon died in the tv series?

No, I think he's still alive but we haven't seen him since he got that box from Ramsey.

Mickeroo

I'm beginning to think that in the show the Greyjoy family arch is pretty much going to amount to "Theon has no dick? Ok, we're out."

Standman

Gabrielle Fierce Spaceman wrote: »

I don't think it's how violent or graphic it was that's annoying people, it's that they're invested in the character, they like her, and it's a regressive narrative move for her. Dany's scene in Season 1 left that in the shade but we barely knew her.

Edit: Yes, Dorne was a mess. Those are some terrible actresses.

I get that people find it uncomfortable for that happen to a character they like, but I don't understand how you can say it's a regressive narrative move. If that's a regressive narrative move then so was Ned Starks execution, the red wedding, etc.

The one major thing that has set GOT apart from many other shows is that it doesn't let someones idea of how a story should progress dictate the plot. We don't have any "safe" characters that we can latch onto as the hero who is above being killed off or tortured. Shit happens, essentially.

DaisyD2

"Sansa" was always going to be deflowered in brutal fashion given the setting of A TV Show! Shes never even been a particularily nice or empathic character.

Imo the "rage" surrounding her rape at the hands of one of GoT most sadistic characters is because in reality we have watched the actress Sophie Turner mature from childhood naivety to womanhood & its for that reason people are outraged.

Sansa the character was never going to have her Knight in Shining Armour ride in & save her from the fate of being sold off to solidify the power of men & their houses.

Given we have diverged from the books & they cut away at start of rape with Reek squirming under what I felt could be Theons re-emergence & possibly (maybe too hopeful given I think theres so many plot possibilities of Stark/Bolton wedding) whacking Ramsey over head with red hot poker (oh the irony!)

Mickeroo

Was anyone actually outraged by the rape scene though? I would have thought most of the criticism is because it seems like a rather unnecessary divergence from the book and feels like a backward step in her overall story? Obviously that opinion could change depending on how things play out from here on.

MrWalsh

Mickeroo wrote: »

Was anyone actually outraged by the rape scene though? I would have thought most of the criticism is because it seems like a rather unnecessary divergence from the book and feels like a backward step in her overall story? Obviously that opinion could change depending on how things play out from here on.

If Im honest I cringed all the harder thinking I knew what was coming and being super horrified at what might have been - I was almost relieved when it wasnt as bad as it could have been!

tipparetops

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Not posted in this forum before, read the books a couple of times]. Generally liked the tv series thus far, no issue with it going away from the books etc

But watched episodes 5 and 6 last night and really was left thinking that same thought someone used on page one of this thread, that its really turning into Xena style soap opera, except with added titillation. The writing and some of the plot arc's are insane. Jamie and Bronn plot just stupid, no way they would get close to key Dorne royalty.

There are some good plot arc's and the base story is great, but there is so much utter rubbish and terrible dialog this season, wonder if key members of script team left or something?

Regarding your xena comment, you nailed it.
that fight scene in the garden looked terrible.

viztopia

Theon?

duploelabs wrote: »

Locke, but he's no family member. Then again neither has the Frey's or the Greyjoys

duploelabs

viztopia wrote: »

Theon?

He's still alive

viztopia

Yes but minus a few body parts. Also in the book his father is dead


quote="duploelabs;95553758"]He's still alive[/quote]

podgemonster

Mickeroo wrote: »

Was anyone actually outraged by the rape scene though? I would have thought most of the criticism is because it seems like a rather unnecessary divergence from the book and feels like a backward step in her overall story? Obviously that opinion could change depending on how things play out from here on.

I think people just forgot that with a wedding comes a bedding. Sansa returned to Winterfell for revenge. It was unlikely she was going to get it before she was wed and Roose needed to act swiftly. Sansa & Littlefinger knew that laying with that fúcking creep (but no-one knew Reek would be made watch) was inevitable and part of the plan.

In a way this will progress her arc further not back, she has sacrificed her maidenhead/innocence and is accessing her surroundings and the people around her. Despite the initial shock of the bedding ultimately I think she will grow stronger and colder.

And there is a factor that viewers have seen Sophie grow up over these 5 years and yearn for her to find happiness. And i think she will find happiness.....when she's bathing in Bolton Blood.

Stone Deaf 4evr

podgemonster wrote: »

I think people just forgot that with a wedding comes a bedding. Sansa returned to Winterfell for revenge. It was unlikely she was going to get it before she was wed and Roose needed to act swiftly. Sansa & Littlefinger knew that laying with that fúcking creep (but no-one knew Reek would be made watch) was inevitable and part of the plan.

In a way this will progress her arc further not back, she has sacrificed her maidenhead/innocence and is accessing her surroundings and the people around her. Despite the initial shock of the bedding ultimately I think she will grow stronger and colder.

And there is a factor that viewers have seen Sophie grow up over these 5 years and yearn for her to find happiness. And i think she will find happiness.....when she's bathing in Bolton Blood.

Agree completely, this is the finally stripping of what innocence sansa had left, she was supremely naive for a long time and expected everything to be a very proper, lords and ladies sort of life. Thats well and truly gone now, it'll be interesting to see if she'll grow stronger or be damaged completely.

tommy2bad

podgemonster wrote: »

I think people just forgot that with a wedding comes a bedding. Sansa returned to Winterfell for revenge. It was unlikely she was going to get it before she was wed and Roose needed to act swiftly. Sansa & Littlefinger knew that laying with that fúcking creep (but no-one knew Reek would be made watch) was inevitable and part of the plan.

In a way this will progress her arc further not back, she has sacrificed her maidenhead/innocence and is accessing her surroundings and the people around her. Despite the initial shock of the bedding ultimately I think she will grow stronger and colder.

And there is a factor that viewers have seen Sophie grow up over these 5 years and yearn for her to find happiness. And i think she will find happiness.....when she's bathing in Bolton Blood.

Yes, she went into this with her eyes open, at this stage she is willing to do what it takes. As both Tyrion and Little finger observed she had natural talent if she applied it. She is still a bit squeamish but that makes her human and not a monster like Cercie who we seen her parallel with earlier during the battle scene.
I'm not sure share the reaction is coming from, it may be the straw that broke the camel's back or it could be Sansas relatableness makes it more uncomfortable but it's an important development in her arich and one she hasn't got in the books.
I think viewers may be disappointed if their hoping for anyone to find happiness, Sansa is the worst bet unless becoming a scheming self serving manipulator like Sercie is their idea of a happy ending.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Standman wrote: »

I get that people find it uncomfortable for that happen to a character they like, but I don't understand how you can say it's a regressive narrative move. If that's a regressive narrative move then so was Ned Starks execution, the red wedding, etc.

The one major thing that has set GOT apart from many other shows is that it doesn't let someones idea of how a story should progress dictate the plot. We don't have any "safe" characters that we can latch onto as the hero who is above being killed off or tortured. Shit happens, essentially.

I disagree. Ned's execution and the red wedding etc. were pretty much the point of those characters (Ned and Robb), or were events caused by their central character flaw - honour to the point of stupidity. At the moment the only quibble I have with Sansa's scene is that it didn't really need to be shown/heard at all, but I know I'm watching the wrong show for squeamish concerns like that.

When I WILL have a concrete problem, and when this will become a regressive narrative move, if is Sansa and Ramsey just turns into Joffrey 2.0, then Ser Dontos Theon bundles her off somewhere else.

Sansa annoyed the piss out of me in the books, she's one of the rare characters I actually like a lot more in the show, and a lot of that is down to Sophie Turner. There's a lot more potential in the performer and character, potential that was touched on this season and last, than: is abused by the frying pan, cries, jumps into the fire, abuse, cry, rinse, repeat.

2ndcoming

On the Sansa topic it's important to note the producers have essentially used Sansa to replace fake Arya for this season as Sansa's arc so far in the show reached the end of AFFC at the end of last season when she headed out into the Vale with Littlefinger. Purely from a TV production point of view it makes sense to keep one of your main stars on the payroll rather than introducing a new character and thus new actress purely to have her victimised by Ramsey.

I 100% believe it will stand more to the characters for Sansa and Theon when the redemption eventually comes than it would have had they followed ADWD strictly. The books plotline only looks like offering some sort of middling redemption to Theon before he meets his impending death (imo). This way it opens up the possibility of him getting true redemption (the forgiveness of a Stark) and revenge against his tormentor while also strengthening another main character in Sansa.

It's very easy to jump the gun but I really don't think this is just "abused, rinse, repeat" for Sansa, she's definitely getting closer to her story's culmination and I think it's going to rock. The North remembers. Let's wait and see.

Iwasfrozen

Standman wrote: »

I get that people find it uncomfortable for that happen to a character they like, but I don't understand how you can say it's a regressive narrative move. If that's a regressive narrative move then so was Ned Starks execution, the red wedding, etc.

The one major thing that has set GOT apart from many other shows is that it doesn't let someones idea of how a story should progress dictate the plot. We don't have any "safe" characters that we can latch onto as the hero who is above being killed off or tortured. Shit happens, essentially.

Danerys and Tyrion.

Hyzepher

For me the final scene was more about Theon and his development than it was about Sansa.

We know Sansa has revenge on her mind - hates the Boltons etc. and ultimately knew what she was getting herself into.

For the viewer Theon has been nothing more than a coward and a sub-servant of Ramsey's. Sansa will be his breaking point and the control Ramsey has over him will start to diminish

Sleepy

Tyrion wrote:

She should have offered her ****. The best part of her for the best part of me

This is a society where a highborn lady's only "value" lies between her legs. For Sansa to gain any agency in Winterfell, she had to use the currency she has: her name and her body. The last scene was tame imo. Leave out the presence of Reek in the room and can you imagine Walda Frey's wedding night with Roose was much different? Cersei's wedding night with Robert? Go back further and Catelyn's wedding night with Eddard would only have been different in that he'd have been kinder and gentler: she'd have been a young girl who'd only have met the cold, dour man she was expected to have sex with that day! Hell, we were even shown Danaerys' wedding night to a man she came to refer to as her "moon and stars".

Marriage in this world is a contractual affair rather than one of the heart (it's even commented on as an oddity in the World book when character do marry for love!).

Sansa getting treated roughly is part of her story, it's not a step back for her character at all. While Ramsey was brutal, she accepted it. She didn't try to run or fight back, she did her "duty" to her husband and, I'd be damn well surprised if this isn't part of her arc: she'll play the role of the meek wife until she gets her chance for vengeance, quite probably by murdering Walda Frey and pinning it on Ramsey (though Roose caring enough about an unborn child or a wife he married for money to kill his only heir may be a stretch to his character imo). Wars are rarely won without losing a few battles or suffering wounds.

Catelyn Stark wrote:

A womans battles are fought in the birthing bed

and with this scene, Sansa has entered the fray.

MrWalsh

I do wish they showed a bit more loving interaction with Roose and Fat Walda - in the book he liked his fat wife!!

Daith

MrWalsh wrote: »

I do wish they showed a bit more loving interaction with Roose and Fat Walda - in the book he liked his fat wife!!

Fat Walda is coming off pretty well actually. Which means she will probably be dead soon.

GerB40

Daith wrote: »

Fat Walda is coming off pretty well actually. Which means she will probably be dead soon.

She does seem very nice doesn't she. She'd make a great ingredient in a new and improved Bolton pie...

celica00

So well said @Sleepy exactly what I thought!

Taboola

I liked this episode apart from the Dorne scenes. They just seem out of place to me. I found myself checking my phone during them as they really didn't appeal to me.

I think that the Ramsey/Sansa storyline had to start off this way in order for her to have any sort of 'victory'. She knew she'd have to sleep with him. I thought the scene, while disturbing, was very well done.

I was going to re-read the books again as I had forgotten about some of the newer characters but since the show is deviating from the books so much I don't think I'll bother until GRRM gives us a date for the new book.

csallmighty

At first I didn't like the shows deviation of Sansa marrying Ramsey but now I think its actually an improvement. It should give more meaning to certain caracters actions (Theon, Stannis and Jon)

Nerdlingr

After this episode will sansa become lady stoneheart and theon the ghost of winterfell? Both of them broken with nothing but vengeance on their minds.

GerB40

Nerdlingr wrote: »

After this episode will sansa become lady stoneheart and theon the ghost of winterfell? Both of them broken with nothing but vengeance on their minds.

It's looking that way. All Reek needs is one conversation with Sansa to regain some Theon and once he tells her the he never killed Bran and Rickon I reckon they'll make an unexpectedly good pairing.

bnt

I admit I was a bit shocked about Sansa, and when that happens, I find myself wondering why. It felt like Sansa's virginity had taken on a life of its own, becoming a character in the story, and we hoped it would have a happy ending. It had already had at least two narrow escapes - firstly from Joffrey, who died before he could jump Sansa, and then from Tyrion, who was practicing being "noble". I think we all agree that the man who killed it will pay a very high price for doing so.

mrkite77

Beaten to it.