Summer 2015 Transfer Window General Discussion

inforfun

And Ziyech of Twente.

12 assist and 8 goals in Twente's last 21 goals. Those are Debruyne stats

astonaidan

Godot. wrote: »

Who have Wolfsburg been linked with as a replacement for KDB? You'd think with £58m they'd be able to buy 2 or 3 high class players

Bendtner is playing more this season they will be fine 😄

klose

Everton released a statement saying stones aint for sale and his transfer request has been refused, west brom also taking the same approach with berahino. Will be interesting to see if they can keep it up as the window draws closer to its end.

Magico Gonzalez

Sterling got his agent to make absolutely sure he got his move, Stones plays the gentleman card and stays at Everton.

Seems like Stones did everything right, maybe a transfer request should actually mean something.

raze_them_all_

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Sterling got his agent to make absolutely sure he got his move, Stones plays the gentleman card and stays at Everton.

Seems like Stones did everything right, maybe a transfer request should actually mean something.

yeah, they should. Contract?? no **** that a player asked to get out of it so it should over rule the legal contract

HalloweenJack

When was the last time a high-profile transfer request was accepted?

Seems like they're always rejected. I don't understand the point of them if that's the case.

Is it just a public acknowledgement of the player's desire to leave? And if so, how can a club reject a player's acknowledgement of that fact?

raze_them_all_

HalloweenJack wrote: »

When was the last time a high-profile transfer request was accepted?

Seems like they're always rejected. I don't understand the point of them if that's the case.

Is it just a public acknowledgement of the player's desire to leave? And if so, how can a club reject a player's acknowledgement of that fact?

its a request to be transferred, the club can say no, you are more valuable to us than the money you would bring in

Exclamation Marc

HalloweenJack wrote: »

When was the last time a high-profile transfer request was accepted?

Seems like they're always rejected. I don't understand the point of them if that's the case.

Is it just a public acknowledgement of the player's desire to leave? And if so, how can a club reject a player's acknowledgement of that fact?

As far as I know if a player places a transfer request, then there's either less or no entitlement for that player to receive part of the transfer fee. Not sure if that's de facto in all contracts or just built into some, but I know that some clubs before have waited for players to place a transfer request to ensure they receive more of the transfer fee.

I'm pretty sure it's in most contracts now (when brokered by an agent) that if a player is transferred without submitting a request, they may be entitled to X% of the transfer (its probably quite a small % but when there's huge fees involved it obviously means more).

Beefy78

Players are contractually entitled to hand in a transfer request, at the cost of foregoing the loyalty bonus at the end of the contract if the request is accepted. Stones has done everything as he should have done in the circumstances and Everton are entitled to turn the request down.

Liam O

I've always been confused as to why loyalty bonuses are involved in football contracts given their nature atm.

Magico Gonzalez

Beefy78 wrote: »

Players are contractually entitled to hand in a transfer request, at the cost of foregoing the loyalty bonus at the end of the contract if the request is accepted. Stones has done everything as he should have done in the circumstances and Everton are entitled to turn the request down.

Absolutely, but there should be some recourse for a player rather than being stuck somewhere he doesn't want to be.

Ideally if the transfer request is not accepted it should force a buyout clause. Buyout clauses should be a mandatory clause in every contract in future. In the case where they haven't existed between premiership clubs some sort of arbitration should be available to set a fee, or even better some calculation should be applied using the players wage, wage increases, ages, national team call ups, u21s etc. Something like that. More science to it!

Neither the Sterling route nor the gentlemanly failure of the Stones approach are ideal.

raze_them_all_

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Absolutely, but there should be some recourse for a player rather than being stuck somewhere he doesn't want to be.

Ideally if the transfer request is not accepted it should force a buyout clause. Buyout clauses should be a mandatory clause in every contract in future. In the case where they haven't existed between premiership clubs some sort of arbitration should be available to set a fee, or even better some calculation should be applied using the players wage, wage increases, ages, national team call ups, u21s etc. Something like that. More science to it!

Neither the Sterling route nor the gentlemanly failure of the Stones approach are ideal.

no it should not force a buyout clause. FFS they signed a contract for thousands of pounds a week for a period of time. It's not as if they are forced to sign, a lot of clubs put a lot of time and money into players and deserve to get their services for as long as both parties agreed to

Magico Gonzalez

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

no it should not force a buyout clause. FFS they signed a contract for thousands of pounds a week for a period of time. It's not as if they are forced to sign, a lot of clubs put a lot of time and money into players and deserve to get their services for as long as both parties agreed to

Almost every other type of contract includes a mechanism for it's termination. Right now in the football scenario this mechanism is basically Club A has a bucketload of money and club B needs to sell more than they need the services of the player. Club B has only hope and goodwill to go on to ensure the player actually performs and doesn't sit on his hands until Xmas when the window opens.

Seems to me it'd cleaner to get it wrapped up, get the money and move on. Perhaps a good contract would stipulate the buyout could only take place 1 month before the window closes.

Seems neater to me. At the end of the day the rich clubs get the players, I would be surprised if Stones doesn't go in January at this rate.

ps...I would 100% include a salary cap for clubs, sliding scale based on the division they play in.

Cleaner all round.

Corholio

Stones will be gone as long as Chelsea and other clubs are still interested. 90% of the time once the transfer request goes in they are gone eventually, regardless of a gentleman way to do it.

CantGetNoSleep

If I'm correct there was a ruling (maybe Andy Webster case?) to allow players to buy themselves out of contracts, but it was clubs who agreed not to use it?

This would potentially come into force where transfer requests are refused

CSF

I mostly think it is funnier given that Everton is about the lad's level. Have seen nothing from him yet that suggests hes ready to compete at the consistency required for a title push and European glory in tandem.

HalloweenJack

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

If I'm correct there was a ruling (maybe Andy Webster case?) to allow players to buy themselves out of contracts, but it was clubs who agreed not to use it?

Looked it up and don't think it could be applied in this instance for now:

However, because he had served more than three years of his contract he was outside of FIFA's "protected period", and any compensation due to Hearts would, per Article 17, be based primarily on the amount of Webster's salary still outstanding—a figure estimated by Webster's advisors at approximately £250,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster_ruling

Stones has only been at Everton since January 2013 so the Webster ruling can't come into effect 'til January next year.

Iused2likebusts

Joey Barton to burnley

Panthro

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Joey Barton to burnley

So he'll now be Tweeting from Burnley then!

glued

CSF wrote: »

I mostly think it is funnier given that Everton is about the lad's level. Have seen nothing from him yet that suggests hes ready to compete at the consistency required for a title push and European glory in tandem.

He's going to be a top class centre half. He should stay at Everton for another season. He'll go for bonkers money next year. He's about as close to Rio Ferdinand as you'll get when Rio was 21/22.

CSF

glued wrote: »

He's going to be a top class centre half. He should stay at Everton for another season. He'll go for bonkers money next year. He's about as close to Rio Ferdinand as you'll get when Rio was 21/22.

I really don't see the same level of potential there myself. Ferdinand oozed class, but I don't see that with Stones. He doesn't strike me as someone who will ever be able to go toe to toe with the real elite teams in Europe but we will see.

Andersonisgod

I'd say including Everton games and England under 21 and senior England games I've seen him play about 15 games so it's not exactly an ideal sample size to get the best assessment of him. All I can comment on is what I have seen and whenever I have seen him play he's been outstanding. Very few centre backs look so comfortable striding out from the back on the ball, let alone Englis centre backs, he's quick across the ground, he deals well with 1 vs 1 situations and he's strong in the air too. It's not tough to see why an English club is going to pay this amount of money for him, is it exorbitant? It's tough to say, in the modern game when compared to many other transfer fees I don't believe it is. He could be the long term solution in the heart of the Chelsea defence, and the prospect of a Courtois/Zouma/Stones triangle is mouthwatering.

eh i dunno

CSF wrote: »

I really don't see the same level of potential there myself. Ferdinand oozed class, but I don't see that with Stones. He doesn't strike me as someone who will ever be able to go toe to toe with the real elite teams in Europe but we will see.

I've pretty much watched every game stones has played for Everton and the lad is outstanding. Will definitely be one of the best defenders in Europe. Are you a Liverpool fan?

Beefy78

I know an Everton season ticket holder who says that Stones is the best ball-playing centre-half he has ever seen at Everton and he genuinely thinks that he has the potential to be one of the best defenders of his generation. He is obviously massively biased of course.

To me he looks streets ahead of Rio Ferdinand at that same age (when Rio was more experienced but was still making a lot of big mistakes). If he went to Chelsea is it that difficult to see him ahead of Gary Cahill in the side? Cahill has a lot more question marks over him than Stones does, for me.

Beefy78

CSF wrote: »

I really don't see the same level of potential there myself. Ferdinand oozed class, but I don't see that with Stones. He doesn't strike me as someone who will ever be able to go toe to toe with the real elite teams in Europe but we will see.

Ferdinand had that 'something' about him as soon as he broke through at West Ham which made you just know he would be a star. But he was also massively error-prone until his mid-20s. Stones is much more solid today even if I've not yet seen the potential in him that Ferdinand obviously had.

glued

Beefy78 wrote: »

I know an Everton season ticket holder who says that Stones is the best ball-playing centre-half he has ever seen at Everton and he genuinely thinks that he has the potential to be one of the best defenders of his generation. He is obviously massively biased of course.

To me he looks streets ahead of Rio Ferdinand at that same age (when Rio was more experienced but was still making a lot of big mistakes). If he went to Chelsea is it that difficult to see him ahead of Gary Cahill in the side? Cahill has a lot more question marks over him than Stones does, for me.

That's a bit of a jump tbh. Stones looks good but he's still not as rounded as Ferdinand was at that age. Comparing the two Rio was a better defender and he was more comfortable on the ball. Stones is as much in that mould as you can get but I don't think he'll make it to that Terry/Ferdinand class of English centre halves. He's still raw in many aspects of his game and would be punished more at Chelsea for his tendency to carry the ball out but he will make an excellent centre back but he still needs to stay at Everton for at least another season.

Skylinehead

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Seems like Stones did everything right, maybe a transfer request should actually mean something.

It's a request, not an order. As such, the club are entitled to say "no".

Beefy78

glued wrote: »

That's a bit of a jump tbh. Stones looks good but he's still not as rounded as Ferdinand was at that age. Comparing the two Rio was a better defender and he was more comfortable on the ball. Stones is as much in that mould as you can get but I don't think he'll make it to that Terry/Ferdinand class of English centre halves. He's still raw in many aspects of his game and would be punished more at Chelsea for his tendency to carry the ball out but he will make an excellent centre back but he still needs to stay at Everton for at least another season.

Rio was possibly more rounded and he was certainly more comfortable on the ball. Was he a better defender when he was Stones' current age? I don't think so. Stones has just turned 21. At that stage Rio was still six months away from his Leeds move. He was far from the player he turned out to be.

I don't think John Stones has that same potential, to be honest. Being English I obviously hope I'm wrong.

I guess what I'm saying is that if I have a match tomorrow and can pick 21 year old John Stones or 21 year old Rio Ferdinand at the back then I'm picking Stones. If I have £40m to spend on one of them though I'm still picking Rio.

CSF

eh i dunno wrote: »

I've pretty much watched every game stones has played for Everton and the lad is outstanding. Will definitely be one of the best defenders in Europe. Are you a Liverpool fan?

I'm not, and I watch 90% of Premier League televised games too. Chap looks grand, comfortable on the ball and all, but I don't see him reaching the heights of a John Terry, Sol Campbell, Rio Ferdinand. Honestly think that if he goes onto emulate Jagielka's career he'll have done well for himself.

Corholio

I think Stones is a fine defender, he's very comfortable on the ball and seems very natural there. I don't think it's that comparitive with Rio yet though, I think people forget how good Rio was because he sort of faded out at the end. When Stones is playing regularly in Europe too I think a fairer comparison can be made. A lot has been said about whether the fee is exorbitant, and to be honest I still think it is. It seems more and more the period of time to judge quality players and mentally measure the level they should be playing is getting shorter and shorter. It reminds me of early 2000's Italian football, when players (mostly strikers) would have a very good season with a mid table or lower standard club and Milan, Inter, Lazio etc etc used to buy them, and mostly they didn't end up working out. I still think there's a lot to be said for playing regularly and continuing in an atmosphere a player is used to, at least short term.

I think Stones will be a success (when he goes there) at Chelsea, but it'll be interesting to see if it'd be blunted a bit by playing time etc.

Paully D

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Joey Barton to burnley

No matter who Joseph is linked to, there's always a tweet to dig up:

https://twitter.com/Joey7Barton/status/462920540974755840?lang=en

https://twitter.com/Joey7Barton/status/462920193594105856?lang=en

https://twitter.com/Joey7Barton/status/462917587207487488?lang=en

Kiith

https://twitter.com/SpursOfficial/status/637187983255408640

Knex*

Really interested to see how he fairs in the PL, tbh. He could be very good for Spurs.

Harry Palmr

Last summer I was banging the drum for Son to join Liverpool, I think he'll do well.

Paully D

Ola Toivonen has joined Sunderland on loan. He has worked with Advocaat before at PSV and I believe he commented before how well Toivonen and Lens used to link up with Toivonen in the central creative role and Lens a wide forward.

I haven't seen much of him though. Can anyone tell me how disappointed I'm going to end up being with this one then? :pac:

ScummyMan

Is KDB that good? Massive amounts of money City are throwing at Wolfsburg for him, is he the real deal?

CSF

ScummyMan wrote: »

Is KDB that good? Massive amounts of money City are throwing at Wolfsburg for him, is he the real deal?

Bundesliga form says yes, spell in England with Chelsea says no. You could find arguments to say that either one is more relevant so it'll be interesting to see how he fares if that transfer happens.

AdamD

CSF wrote: »

Bundesliga form says yes, spell in England with Chelsea says no. You could find arguments to say that either one is more relevant so it'll be interesting to see how he fares if that transfer happens.

He made 3 PL appearances, all probably from the bench. I don't think you can draw any conclusions from his time in England.

CSF

AdamD wrote: »

He made 3 PL appearances, all probably from the bench. I don't think you can draw any conclusions from his time in England.

I think we can draw the conclusion that he did not make the grade at Chelsea only 2 years ago. There are the arguments for the other side too (which I've pointed out) but those are the facts at the same time.

AdamD

Well I wouldn't be drawing that conclusion as its pretty clear that Mourinho has chosen to keep inferior players who suit his style of play and there have been a number of players in recent seasons who didn't get genuine chances with him. Willian has 'made the grade' at Chelsea but I doubt anyone would have him over KDB. If I was to judge him I wouldn't even bother considering his time at Chelsea. Matter of opinions I suppose.

CSF

AdamD wrote: »

Well I wouldn't be drawing that conclusion as its pretty clear that Mourinho has chosen to keep inferior players who suit his style of play and there have been a number of players in recent seasons who didn't get genuine chances with him. Willian has 'made the grade' at Chelsea but I doubt anyone would have him over KDB. If I was to judge him I wouldn't even bother considering his time at Chelsea. Matter of opinions I suppose.

No, no. That is exactly the conclusion to draw. That is what happened.

You've arguments as to why and I accept and agree with most of them, but that still doesn't change the fact that he did not make the grade at Chelsea just 2 years ago.

His form at Wolfsburg last year was immense but that has to be a niggling doubt all the same. Would David Silva make the grade at Chelsea? Absolutely.

rob316

Good signing for Spurs, He's not very prolific about 1 in 3 at best but hes a very versatile intelligent attacking player from what I have seen.

AdamD

CSF wrote: »

No, no. That is exactly the conclusion to draw. That is what happened.

You've arguments as to why and I accept and agree with most of them, but that still doesn't change the fact that he did not make the grade at Chelsea just 2 years ago.

His form at Wolfsburg last year was immense but that has to be a niggling doubt all the same. Would David Silva make the grade at Chelsea? Absolutely.

Would Juan Mata?

Trond

AdamD wrote: »

Would Juan Mata?

In a word yes!

AdamD

AdamD wrote: »

Would Juan Mata?

Not good enough for Chelsea.

Mourinhio was proven right too

snowblind

CSF wrote: »

No, no. That is exactly the conclusion to draw. That is what happened.

You've arguments as to why and I accept and agree with most of them, but that still doesn't change the fact that he did not make the grade at Chelsea just 2 years ago.

His form at Wolfsburg last year was immense but that has to be a niggling doubt all the same. Would David Silva make the grade at Chelsea? Absolutely.

Managers don't always make the best decisions, shocking as it may sound. Pirlo was dropped by AC Milan and he was a MONSTER when he joined Juventus the next season for free. Same league, and they knew the guy extremely well. Pogba in ManU - didn't get a proper chance under Ferguson, exploded the next season in Juve. There are tons of examples.

Liam O

rarnes1 wrote: »

Not good enough for Chelsea.

Mourinhio was proven right too

Hahaha, this is starting again is it?

CSF

AdamD wrote: »

Would Juan Mata?

Juan Mata was a 2 time player of the year for Chelsea. Regardless of how it ended, you couldn't say he 'didn't make the grade'. Mourinho just decided to cash in and go a different way. De Bruyne completely did not make the grade. Just looked there and he played 132 minutes for Chelsea so Mata comparisons aren't right there.

CSF

snowblind wrote: »

Managers don't always make the best decisions, shocking as it may sound. Pirlo was dropped by AC Milan and he was a MONSTER when he joined Juventus the next season for free. Same league, and they knew the guy extremely well. Pogba in ManU - didn't get a proper chance under Ferguson, exploded the next season in Juve. There are tons of examples.

Of course they do. I would never suggest otherwise. But there are far more cases of managers getting it right, so I think it remains a decent-sized doubt given the price being discussed, despite how well he did at Wolfsburg last year.

Trond

rarnes1 wrote: »

Not good enough for Chelsea.

Mourinhio was proven right too

Nonsense. He was their player of the year not so long ago. He didn't fit into Mourinhio system. Hes in the Top 5 in Europe for assists in the last 5/6 seasons.