puppy training

CaptainSkidmark

hi folks, just a few questions.

We just got a 8 week old puppy golden lab, the most beautiful specimen I've seen.

The toilet training will be ok I think, I bring him outside after his naps and wait for him to pee and praise him and if he starts peeing on the floor I tell him no put him on the puppy pad and praise him when he's finished(provided I catch it in time)

What is the best way to stop him nipping and biting? I give him his squeaky toy to try avert him from biting me or the couch and when he does the above I tap his nose and say no firmly. If he gets a bit too nippy I do the same and put him in his bed in a different room and ignore his cries until he has calmed down.

The last part is the night crying, he doesn't seem too bad at the mo, he was crying and light yelping for half a hour the last 2 nights so I just ignored him and he went to sleep, he has woken at 5am the last 2 nights and I went down for fear he would wake the neighbours but I didn't interact much with him, really just waited for him to go back to sleep.

Just wondering am I on the right track here? I know the toilet training and nipping won't stop overnight. We let him sleep for a few hours yesterday evening and we had visitors this evening and he was nipping so we let him sleep, we won't be doing it again so as to wear him out. I also know there is no point in reprimanding him in the morning for having accidents as you only have a 9 second time frame to reprimand and we also won't be sticking his nose in his poo or wee.

Cheers folks and all advice greatly received

Nody

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

hi folks, just a few questions.

We just got a 8 week old puppy golden lab, the most beautiful specimen I've seen.

The toilet training will be ok I think, I bring him outside after his naps and wait for him to pee and praise him and if he starts peeing on the floor I tell him no put him on the puppy pad and praise him when he's finished(provided I catch it in time)

Stop with the puppy pads; it will only add to the time it takes to train him and confuse him about if he's allowed to pee inside or not and if unlucky can start associating other things such as mail coming in the mailbox or newspapers left around as the right area to pee on as well.

What is the best way to stop him nipping and biting? I give him his squeaky toy to try avert him from biting me or the couch and when he does the above I tap his nose and say no firmly.

Physical abuse (and yes it is abuse) will only reinforce a fear of your hands and do nothing for the training.

If he gets a bit too nippy I do the same and put him in his bed in a different room and ignore his cries until he has calmed down.

You need to squeek like a puppy and turn away; not give him a toy. If that does not work you need to give him a short (1 minute) time out in another room or simply walk out of the room but 1 minute would really be enough and he'll coop on quickly that biting to hard stops the fun.

The last part is the night crying, he doesn't seem too bad at the mo, he was crying and light yelping for half a hour the last 2 nights so I just ignored him and he went to sleep, he has woken at 5am the last 2 nights and I went down for fear he would wake the neighbours but I didn't interact much with him, really just waited for him to go back to sleep.

And have you been bringing him outside during twice every night to take him out? He's 8 weeks old his bladder is tiny and got very limited control of his bladder and by not going up you're once again only increasing his training for toilet training of where to go.

ShaShaBear

Just to add on the nose tapping:
Yes, negative reinforcement does work for some dogs, but only a very select few, and through pure chance. Hurting your dog (this is the most sensitive part of the dog's body, if you are doing it hard enough to indicate your displeasure, then it hurts) has absolutely no guarantee (and realistically very little chance) of ever teaching your dog that its doing something wrong. All it does is teaches the pup to be afraid of hands approaching its nose, which can lead to (perfectly normal) fear-based aggression and even snapping and biting.

I'll give you an example. Our collie boy, almost a year old now, came to us at 4 months old. He was so wild, with absolutely no manners despite the original foster family insisting they had trained him. When he jumped on someone in exitement, they would slap him on the nose. What did Opie learn? That close proximity to humans resulted in pain. He learned to keep his distance, and would growl and snap if anyone approached him too quickly or put their hands anywhere around his face or nose. It has taken us months of hard work to teach him that people are not dangerous and that it's okay to touch his face and nose.
If you simply treat a dog when they do something right, they are far more likely to repeat the behaviour as they KNOW it results in good things. Punishing a dog for doing something wrong doesn't actually teach them what it is you WANT them to do. The poor pup could cycle through 20 other methods that you also find unacceptable before it figures out the right one. For example, it might stop nipping your feet and only nip your hands and ears. Treating indicates correct behaviour, punishment only indicates that the behaviour is not correct.

And as above, puppy pads are useless. All you are doing is teaching the pup it's perfectly fine to pee and poop indoors once it finds a suitable surface to go on.

CaptainSkidmark

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Just to add on the nose tapping:
Yes, negative reinforcement does work for some dogs, but only a very select few, and through pure chance. Hurting your dog (this is the most sensitive part of the dog's body, if you are doing it hard enough to indicate your displeasure, then it hurts) has absolutely no guarantee (and realistically very little chance) of ever teaching your dog that its doing something wrong. All it does is teaches the pup to be afraid of hands approaching its nose, which can lead to (perfectly normal) fear-based aggression and even snapping and biting.

I'll give you an example. Our collie boy, almost a year old now, came to us at 4 months old. He was so wild, with absolutely no manners despite the original foster family insisting they had trained him. When he jumped on someone in exitement, they would slap him on the nose. What did Opie learn? That close proximity to humans resulted in pain. He learned to keep his distance, and would growl and snap if anyone approached him too quickly or put their hands anywhere around his face or nose. It has taken us months of hard work to teach him that people are not dangerous and that it's okay to touch his face and nose.
If you simply treat a dog when they do something right, they are far more likely to repeat the behaviour as they KNOW it results in good things. Punishing a dog for doing something wrong doesn't actually teach them what it is you WANT them to do. The poor pup could cycle through 20 other methods that you also find unacceptable before it figures out the right one. For example, it might stop nipping your feet and only nip your hands and ears. Treating indicates correct behaviour, punishment only indicates that the behaviour is not correct.

And as above, puppy pads are useless. All you are doing is teaching the pup it's perfectly fine to pee and poop indoors once it finds a suitable surface to go on.

Thank you for that info and for not accusing me of physically abusing my beautiful puppy As the taps he did get fell very very short of abuse. I've also put the rubber toy in the fridge to cool it for his gums, he's now stopped trying to chew metal things. Makes sense!

Thanks again

ShaShaBear

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

Thank you for that info and for not accusing me of physically abusing my beautiful puppy As the taps he did get fell very very short of abuse. I've also put the rubber toy in the fridge to cool it for his gums, he's now stopped trying to chew metal things. Makes sense!

Thanks again

Most people on here would assume that anyone getting a puppy will have done loads of research, and during such research people usually discover (for example a quick look on this forum would yield hundreds of results) that slapping or tapping a puppy is not right. Obviously if you do it intentionally to cause the pup pain it is technically abuse but I do get that there are still people who take their puppy-rearing information from childhood/family experiences and that used to be the "done" thing. However, there are tonnes of resources online and in books showing you the gentle and fun approach to training a dog. As you've noticed by cooling the pup's toy, he bites because his teeth are growing, and that's really uncomfortable. My daughter is teething at the minute, and sometimes she chomps down - but I say "Ah ah!" and give her something appropriate to chew on. I obviously wouldn't tap her nose or slap her - she's be terrified of me then and probably have no clue why I punished her.

It definitely does help when training a pup to imagine how you would handle it if he were a toddler - they are very similar in behaviour and mental capacity. We don't hit our kids when they misbehave anymore - we know it's cruel and just simply doesn't work! Instead, we give them time-outs - an abrupt removal of all fun things the second bad behaviour starts, which indicates that good things go away when I do that, I won't do it next time as I want the good thing to stay! When our kids do something right, especially for the first few times, we go absolutely stir crazy throwing a praise party. We tell them how great they are, and how proud we are, and there's usually plenty of cuddling, clapping and kissing It works just as well with a dog - they want nice attention too!
And when we potty train our toddlers, we take them at regular intervals to the place we would like them to go to the toilet, making sure to praise when they do it. People are moving away from potties all over the house as, just with puppy pads, people have realised that kids can be a bit slower to learn, as they will find places in the house to go that are similar to a potty, but not always the right place :rolleyes:

I really hope that doesn't come across as too patronising, it certainly isn't intended as such. Next time you aren't sure how to go about something, just think "What would I do if he were a human toddler?" and more than likely, you'll come up with the right answer

VonVix

You got great advice here from Nody and ShaShaBear, you wouldn't do wrong to follow their advice!

Try and keep in mind how often you say no (or try to cause your puppy displeasure) versus how often you say yes/praise your puppy for doing the right thing, if you are saying "no" far more often than "yes" you got some changes to be making to your training routine! Puppies as well as dogs respond SO much better to praise than by corrections.

I used puppy pads when my boys were little, terrible mistake. Took me nearly a year to figure out how to properly house train them and undo the mistakes we made. My family did the whole newspaper/push nose in pee shindig as well (I had NO clue how to potty train a puppy, these are my first dogs, but not my family's so I assumed they knew what to do), which left my dogs peeing/pooping in the living room when our backs were turned. They built an association that pooing/peeing ANYWHERE a human would witness was a bad thing, so they had to sneak around when doing it, they would frequently do their business in the living room at night when we weren't around.

So, like its been said, get rid of those puppy pads. Take your puppy out a few times during the night as well as during the day (you need to be watching and with your puppy whenever they go outside, praise them for doing the right thing otherwise they take longer to learn!), they've only tiny bladders so it's too soon to be expecting him to hold it during the night or not make a sound during the night. It gets better. People easily forget how tough raising a puppy is until they have one again, they require attention and guidance every single day in order for them to grow to be the best well balanced adult dog they can be.

eoin.d

Hi everyone, some great advice there. Like the OP i have a young pup, ive done alot of research online but most of it is contradictory. Can any of you recommend a good book with aÄvice about pups

DBB

Gwen Bailey has soem great puppy books, but you'll also get some great help from www.dogstardaily.com (you need to sign up to become a member, but it's free). All of the contributors to that site are basing their advice on evidence-based, research-lead techniques, and most importantly are committed to positive, dog-friendly training

yaines

Hi All,

Just want to concur with eoin.d, this is great advice. I'm a first time puppy owner myself. We adopted an 8 week old jug (jack russell/pug) a few weeks ago and its good to know we're on the right path with the toilet training and night time crying.

However, the nipping/biting is getting beyond control. She'll bite down on anything! The most worrying was last night I had her on my lap and she attempted to go for my face. I've tried distracting her with toys (although I just found out about the Kongs so will have to buy one of them) as well as attempting to squeal like a puppy when she bites me but either my squeal isn't piercing enough or she just doesn't care cos she pays no attention! After two bites, I'll put her in her crate in the other room for a while and let her out when she settles herself. I guess this is what I just need to keep doing, right? I'm sure every dog is different but how long do you think roughly it will take her to cop on this this is a no-no. I've been doing this for about 4 days now and she's still as nippy as ever... Are we talking weeks/months? I don't mind how long it takes, I just need to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel!

Thanks!

ShaShaBear

yaines wrote: »

Hi All,

Just want to concur with eoin.d, this is great advice. I'm a first time puppy owner myself. We adopted an 8 week old jug (jack russell/pug) a few weeks ago and its good to know we're on the right path with the toilet training and night time crying.

However, the nipping/biting is getting beyond control. She'll bite down on anything! The most worrying was last night I had her on my lap and she attempted to go for my face. I've tried distracting her with toys (although I just found out about the Kongs so will have to buy one of them) as well as attempting to squeal like a puppy when she bites me but either my squeal isn't piercing enough or she just doesn't care cos she pays no attention! After two bites, I'll put her in her crate in the other room for a while and let her out when she settles herself. I guess this is what I just need to keep doing, right? I'm sure every dog is different but how long do you think roughly it will take her to cop on this this is a no-no. I've been doing this for about 4 days now and she's still as nippy as ever... Are we talking weeks/months? I don't mind how long it takes, I just need to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel!

Thanks!

Opie is a border collie, and we got him when he was 4 months old. He was 8 months before the nipping slowed (they will probably continue to nip until they are finished teething) and it's totally stopped now at 11 months old.

When you take her to her crate, do you hold her? Carry her? Because I've been told that's counter-productive. And how long are you leaving her in the crate? Any more than a minute and she won't be relating the experience to the punishment, so it's probably pointless. I found that leaving the room myself instead of putting the pup out is far more effective (and easier to control).
As for distracting with toys, we found that very unhelpful. Opie learned very quick that nipping meant we gave him a toy, so he started doing it in order to get someone to "play". We decided to reward him when he played with toys on his own initiative and continue with yelp and human removal when he nipped.

yaines

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Opie is a border collie, and we got him when he was 4 months old. He was 8 months before the nipping slowed (they will probably continue to nip until they are finished teething) and it's totally stopped now at 11 months old.

When you take her to her crate, do you hold her? Carry her? Because I've been told that's counter-productive. And how long are you leaving her in the crate? Any more than a minute and she won't be relating the experience to the punishment, so it's probably pointless. I found that leaving the room myself instead of putting the pup out is far more effective (and easier to control).
As for distracting with toys, we found that very unhelpful. Opie learned very quick that nipping meant we gave him a toy, so he started doing it in order to get someone to "play". We decided to reward him when he played with toys on his own initiative and continue with yelp and human removal when he nipped.

Thanks ShaShabear. I would carry her but I've literally just read myself that this is counter-productive so I'm going to just start leaving her in the kitchen for a minute going forward.

I didn't expect a timeline of 8 months but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes!

ShaShaBear

yaines wrote: »

Thanks ShaShabear. I would carry her but I've literally just read myself that this is counter-productive so I'm going to just start leaving her in the kitchen for a minute going forward.

I didn't expect a timeline of 8 months but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes!

Yeah apparently the carrying is like attention = reward. So by the time they get to the time out, they've actually had positive reinforcement from you without realising it.

Opie was a special case as he was in a very dodgy foster home before we adopted him from rescue. He had a lot of bad habits that took extra training to reverse, but when I say the nipping had slowed by 8 months, I mean that he only nipped if he got really, really excited and it was usually corrected with the yelp and no more. Obviously that took 16 weeks of training from 4 months of age, but if we had gotten him at 8 weeks, it might only have taken until he was 4 months old to correct!

tk123

yaines wrote: »

Thanks ShaShabear. I would carry her but I've literally just read myself that this is counter-productive so I'm going to just start leaving her in the kitchen for a minute going forward.

I didn't expect a timeline of 8 months but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes!

Do you know anyone with an older dog you could introduce the pup to? When we got our last pup (who was 2 yesterday :pac: ) she never nipped any of - instead she pestered her big brother and he soon taught her what was acceptable and what wasn't.

yaines

tk123 wrote: »

Do you know anyone with an older dog you could introduce the pup to? When we got our last pup (who was 2 yesterday :pac: ) she never nipped any of - instead she pestered her big brother and he soon taught her what was acceptable and what wasn't.

I do know a couple of people who have bigger dogs but for some reason, any time we've introduced them over the past few weeks, the bigger dogs don't express any interest in our pup or they seem to run away from her! They've all been bitches though... Maybe a male dog would be more assertive with her? My dad has a male 1 year old that I could leave her with but if I'm honest, he's VERY aggressive. I'd be afraid he'd hurt her without realising... Or am I just being an overprotective puppy-mama?

Anyway, I tried the new approach of just walking away from her at lunchtime and it didn't do a thing! She nipped me when trying to get to my shoe (that I was wearing!! ) to chew on, I squealed, she did it again, I squealed again and left her in the kitchen for one minute, came back and she'd just found something else to chew on! I don't think she even noticed I'd gone!

ShaShaBear

yaines wrote: »

I do know a couple of people who have bigger dogs but for some reason, any time we've introduced them over the past few weeks, the bigger dogs don't express any interest in our pup or they seem to run away from her! They've all been bitches though... Maybe a male dog would be more assertive with her? My dad has a male 1 year old that I could leave her with but if I'm honest, he's VERY aggressive. I'd be afraid he'd hurt her without realising... Or am I just being an overprotective puppy-mama?

Anyway, I tried the new approach of just walking away from her at lunchtime and it didn't do a thing! She nipped me when trying to get to my shoe (that I was wearing!! ) to chew on, I squealed, she did it again, I squealed again and left her in the kitchen for one minute, came back and she'd just found something else to chew on! I don't think she even noticed I'd gone!

If you are leaving her in a room as a punishment, don't leave her with toys or anything she can chew. And it will take way more than once for her to realise that her biting ends the play.

yaines

ShaShaBear wrote: »

If you are leaving her in a room as a punishment, don't leave her with toys or anything she can chew. And it will take way more than once for her to realise that her biting ends the play.

Lol, yeah I figured as much alright! Oh well, will try again later!

tk123

ShaShaBear wrote: »

If you are leaving her in a room as a punishment, don't leave her with toys or anything she can chew. And it will take way more than once for her to realise that her biting ends the play.

+1 Put them in an empty hall and use a house line if needed under the door to keep them where they arestop them going off looking for something to do. For the dogs not being interested in her - that's normal and what you want. They won't entertain her if she's being a PITA and she'll soon learn that she needs to stop. Have you brought her to puppy socialisation - she'd learn bite inhibition from other puppies too?

DBB

yaines wrote: »

After two bites, I'll put her in her crate in the other room for a while and let her out when she settles herself.

Two bites is one too many!
If she bites once, she gets an "ouch". If she even attempts to bite again, it's verbal warning ("Enough!", or "Ah, ah!"), and straight into the Time Out.
As Shashabear said, getting up and elaving the room is often easier and quicker to do, but if you are bringing pup to a Time Out area, she should already have a short lead/ribbon attached to her collar so that you can lead her to the Time Out area without touching her or interacting with her.
Do not leave a lead or ribbon attached to her collar unless you're there to supervise.
And as already advised, don't time her out for more than 1 minute.
You also have to resolve to be very consistent when doing Time Outs... you have to try to avoid showing the pup a chink in your armour!

yaines

DBB wrote: »

Two bites is one too many!
If she bites once, she gets an "ouch". If she even attempts to bite again, it's verbal warning ("Enough!", or "Ah, ah!"), and straight into the Time Out.
As Shashabear said, getting up and elaving the room is often easier and quicker to do, but if you are bringing pup to a Time Out area, she should already have a short lead/ribbon attached to her collar so that you can lead her to the Time Out area without touching her or interacting with her.
Do not leave a lead or ribbon attached to her collar unless you're there to supervise.
And as already advised, don't time her out for more than 1 minute.
You also have to resolve to be very consistent when doing Time Outs... you have to try to avoid showing the pup a chink in your armour!

Apologies, I should have been clearer - I do shout "Ow" after the first bite, I just meant if she tries it a second time, its straight to Time Out.

It was suggested to me last night that the reason she could be biting so much is because she's teething and I should give her ice cubes to help with this. Does anyone else have any experience with this? When's the best time to give them? I tried giving her some this morning after her breakfast and she had no interest...

ShaShaBear

yaines wrote: »

Apologies, I should have been clearer - I do shout "Ow" after the first bite, I just meant if she tries it a second time, its straight to Time Out.

It was suggested to me last night that the reason she could be biting so much is because she's teething and I should give her ice cubes to help with this. Does anyone else have any experience with this? When's the best time to give them? I tried giving her some this morning after her breakfast and she had no interest...

For the most part, that IS the reason she is biting. She is also playing, obviously, but I'm sure you can remember what it felt like when your last tooth started to break the gum? Not comfortable.
Some dogs aren't going to like ice, but the idea is that it's cold, soothing and slightly numbing. If you have a Kong, try putting some wet food or peanut butter in it and leaving it in the freezer overnight. Will keep her entertained and probably have the same effect!

yaines

tk123 wrote: »

+1 Put them in an empty hall and use a house line if needed under the door to keep them where they arestop them going off looking for something to do. For the dogs not being interested in her - that's normal and what you want. They won't entertain her if she's being a PITA and she'll soon learn that she needs to stop. Have you brought her to puppy socialisation - she'd learn bite inhibition from other puppies too?

I'd love to do this but I haven't been able to find any puppy socialisation classes in my hometown. I do have her enrolled in some training classes but they don't start for another 2 weeks.

tk123

yaines wrote: »

I'd love to do this but I haven't been able to find any puppy socialisation classes in my hometown. I do have her enrolled in some training classes but they don't start for another 2 weeks.

Maybe check with your vet - ours do puppy classes.