Bible in polling station - acceptable?

luap_42

At my polling station for the first time ever for any vote on any issue, every desk had a copy of the New Testament at the front edge of the desk closest to every voter to make sure you could not miss them.

In the nearest voting station less than ten miles down the road, no such copies were present according to a friend of mine.

The point is not that this would sway a voter or not.

The point actually is that this is tantamount to an attempt to sway votes. Especially in Rathfarnham where they have made the whole thing into a shrine especially for the purpose of this particular vote.

A polling booth on local, national elections or changes to the constitution should be totally impartial politically and on religious grounds. These people who WORK for the state polling authority are completely breaking the spirit of impartial voting, even if they are not technically breaking the law. Or as our politicians would put it, they are being totally disingenuous, as are some of the commentards here.

In order to be totally impartial on both of these grounds, no religious documents should be present. Voting cards and some normal form of ID should be carried by every adult anyway. If not, then they should be denied a vote. Unless declaring that you are who you are is acceptable, in which case that is all it should take.

Ave Sodalis

I don't think it really affects people's voting. I do think it's ridiculous that it's there though. As others have pointed out, have every religious text there if you want to be equal or better yet, have none. The simple answer really is No ID, No Vote. Does anyone really believe that swearing on a bible will stop people lying?

autumnrain

Ok. The shrine with mary, flowers and bible - it's a May altar, fierce common in catholic schools in May. It's not there for voters.
The bibles are a traditional way of swearing but it says in scripture that we shouldn't need to be swearing - 'let your yes be yes and your no be no'. So it's a habit we can break!
I suggest that people who are irritated by this, do something about it. Contact your local TDs or change the law yourself. It's a good way to get engaged in local politics!

Hotblack Desiato

autumnrain wrote: »

Ok. The shrine with mary, flowers and bible - it's a May altar, fierce common in catholic schools in May. It's not there for voters.

It should be removed so.

Penny Tration

Ruby Fit Bark wrote: »

You can also affirm if you are non religious of of another religion other than christian or if your Christian beliefs don't allow you swear on a bible.

So Christians can swear on their holy book, but people of other religions have to take a non-religious affirmation?

Absolute bollocks. Religious affirmation for people of ALL religions, or non-religious for all, is how it should be.

Mint Sauce

Its there for you to swear on, that you are who you say you are, alternatives oaths are available as already pointed out.

TBH, only for I have previously worked in the polling centre, I would have not even known of their exsistance in them. What they have on the table is the last concern of mine when casting my vote. As long as my name is crossed off an my ballot goes in the box, thats all that concerns me.

Bob24

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It should be removed so.

I think you might be looking at it the wrong way.

That a catholic institution follows catholic traditions seems pretty obvious and is not an issue to me.
What is an issue is that our State is not able to organise a vote on its own and has to rely on catholic institutions to do it - pretty pathetic.

In other words it is silly to want to force the Church to turn its back on its traditions because some non believer citizens don't like them. What we need is to disengage the State from the Church so that a citizen who is not religious doesn't have to depend on it when it comes to their civic rights and duties.

Hotblack Desiato

If you mean that religion should have no involvement whatsoever in state funded schools, then I agree entirely

If they were smarter they would be more accommodating and not make it obvious that they are trying to force religion on people and influence democratic votes in a sly way - and just stick to brainwashing innocent young children like they do every day of the week.

Bob24

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If you mean that religion should have no involvement whatsoever in state funded schools, then I agree entirely

Personally I would indeed be in favour of a purely non religious public service where the practice of (any) religion is left at the door and Irish culture, history, and tradition is what would define a common identity for the students (rather than being a believer of a specific religion). Of course Christianity is a strong part of what defined our identity so shouldn't disappear from schools completely, but should be taught with an historical and cultural approach rather than a religious one. And it also means no selection of students based on religious criteria.

At the same time I think the State should commit to protecting citizens right to freely practise their religion, but with a clear understanding that protecting doesn't mean promoting.

But to try to go back on topic, I don't think having non Catholics telling Catholics what to do is the solution. It is actually accepting the fact that the State and religion go hand in hand.

Bodder1

luap_42 wrote: »

At my polling station for the first time ever for any vote on any issue, every desk had a copy of the New Testament at the front edge of the desk closest to every voter to make sure you could not miss them.

In the nearest voting station less than ten miles down the road, no such copies were present according to a friend of mine.

The point is not that this would sway a voter or not.

The point actually is that this is tantamount to an attempt to sway votes. Especially in Rathfarnham where they have made the whole thing into a shrine especially for the purpose of this particular vote.

A polling booth on local, national elections or changes to the constitution should be totally impartial politically and on religious grounds. These people who WORK for the state polling authority are completely breaking the spirit of impartial voting, even if they are not technically breaking the law. Or as our politicians would put it, they are being totally disingenuous, as are some of the commentards here.

In order to be totally impartial on both of these grounds, no religious documents should be present. Voting cards and some normal form of ID should be carried by every adult anyway. If not, then they should be denied a vote. Unless declaring that you are who you are is acceptable, in which case that is all it should take.

Well said!!! The most sensible comments yet.

SPDUB

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It should be removed so.

No if it's May the State should be told to go elsewhere

Sheldons Brain

The place I voted had a basketball hoop at the end of the hall. This made me feel uncomfortable as basketball shows clear discrimination against people of short stature. I think it should have been removed and I might take a case about it.

Xzen

zagmund wrote: »

A piece of fiction which has reasonably strong things to say about at least one of the matters being voted on today.

z

Fixed (not a lot reasonable in that book)

Sheldons Brain

Quote:
Originally Posted by zagmund
A piece of fiction which has reasonably strong things to say about at least one of the matters being voted on today.

z

Fixed (not a lot reasonable in that book)

When voting I thought of




1 Peter 5:5 : Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders.


and I rejected the Presidential age stunt.

PopePalpatine

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's set up perfectly for a sequel, but it's been stuck in development hell for the last 2000 years.

I heard some American wrote his own sequel about 175 years ago, and an Arab wrote a reboot about 1,400 years ago too. :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

The place I voted had a basketball hoop at the end of the hall. This made me feel uncomfortable as basketball shows clear discrimination against people of short stature. I think it should have been removed and I might take a case about it.

The hoop is a symbol of support for the No side, it's what they were talking through the whole time.

Jim2007

Bodder1 wrote: »

Don't be daft!! You polling card says BRING ID! NO ID....NO VOTE!! SIMPLE!

It is not a question of having ID, it is a question of having confidence in that ID that is at issue. And the fact that that procedure still exists only confirms the issue.

Bodder1

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is not a question of having ID, it is a question of having confidence in that ID that is at issue. And the fact that that procedure still exists only confirms the issue.

You are absolutely wrong I'm afraid. Here is a direct quote from the Dept Of Environment (courtesy RTE website):

"The Department of Environment has said the bibles are for use in cases where a presiding officer asks a voter with no identification to swear an oath".

luap_42

Bob24 wrote: »

At the same time I think the State should commit to protecting citizens right to freely practise their religion, but with a clear understanding that protecting doesn't mean promoting.

I think you need to read article 44 of the constitution:-

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/en/constitution/

luap_42

Breadwoman wrote: »

You went to a Catholic school, that's like saying i went to a circus and they were clowns and magicians there and I couldn't believe it, what do you expect? what's all this anti Christian hatred about, if there were quran's on the table, would ye care or dare to question it? this is a non issue

No. We did not go to a catholic school. We went to a voting station. There is a difference, but obviously the subtleties of separation of state from religion is lost on you.

Voting stations should be impartial locations for the purpose of the vote being cast. If the state must use locations with implicit bias, then there should be rules about what is, and what is not allowed to go on in the voting rooms. Any religious or political artifacts on display should be removed for the purpose of voting. If the bible must be available, it should not be in your face.

The fact that there have never been bibles on the desk at my polling station before, and this time they were placed right in my face at the desk where I pick up my voting slip, says it all. The fact that it was conveniently decided to put a large May Shrine inside the door of the polling station in Rathfarnham also says it all. The fact that there were some polling stations with no bibles visible shows that the ladies sitting at many voting desks, or their superiors, were not acting impartially.

Bob24

luap_42 wrote: »

No. We did not go to a catholic school. We went to a voting station. There is a difference, but obviously the subtleties of separation of state from religion is lost on you.

Voting stations should be impartial locations for the purpose of the vote being cast. If the state must use locations with implicit bias, then there should be rules about what is, and what is not allowed to go on in the voting rooms. Any religious or political artifacts on display should be removed for the purpose of voting. If the bible must be available, it should not be in your face.

Thing is - your voting station is a catholic school.
You cannot go to your voting station without going to a catholic school (and that second point actually is the main use of the premises).

I absolutely agree voting stations should be impartial and religion shouldn't have any place in them. But the issue isn't with the school misbehaving (they are just doing what a catholic school does), it is with the State not being able to grow up and organise a vote without relying on a religious institution.

luap_42

Berserker wrote: »

I can't accept that last sentence. Turn that logic around. If the Christian method is fine for Christians, who according to the last census in this country make up a sizable majority of the population then should it be fine for non-Christians? Is that ok?

I totally agree that Muslims should have a copy of the Qu'ran present etc. I personally wouldn't swear on a bible in a polling station and I don't even have a copy of it in my house but as someone who genuinely wants equality for all, I recognize and respect the right of Christians, Muslims etc to use their respective holy book in polling stations.

Total and absolute codswallop.

Separation of state from religion. It's called a secular state. All religious articles should be absent from any voting issue.

As said elsewhere, our constitution contains heavily loaded religious claptrap that should be removed.

However, a fundamental problem of our legal system is the use of oaths as the only basis for confirmation of identity or truth. These historical religious inventions should be replaced by non-religious affirmations with a supplementary oath being allowed if the person so wishes.

autumnrain

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It should be removed so.

why?
why should a children's may altar be removed from a corridor you might pass down once?
Should posters in classrooms all be checked to see if they'll offend anyone who looks in as they pass? what about pictures of named children which are all over school corridors - is it acceptable to have them up on the one day that this is a public space open to adults who might identify the children?

We are in a time of change. People are using old meeting places because new ones aren't available. To quote Stephen Fry "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so ****ing what."

I await with great interest the hordes of complainers who will now actually do something about this issue of bibles and polling stations. I assume a lobby group is already created and you've all contacted politicians ...

Sheldons Brain

Marvellous how a referendum supposedly about tolerance is followed up by the of these intolerant threads,

uck51js9zml2yt

I was presiding officer In a catholic school. I'm not catholic. We kept bibles on the floor with our other equipment. There were statues all over the place but nothing I would think out of the ordinary for where we were.

People have the option of affirming a statement or swearing an oath if the presiding officer thinks it necessary.
As there are no stipulations in the handbook as to where equipment should be kept a PO can put it anywhere.
You really need to get over yourself.
The location of the bible obviously didnt affect the vote in that it passed.

C14N

It really makes very little difference in my opinion. I didn't even notice it when I voted. If they stuck a Qu'aran, a Torah, the book of Mormon and a Spaghetti Whatever Monster book down there with it I still wouldn't really have paid any attention.

munchkin_utd

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Marvellous how a referendum supposedly about tolerance is followed up by the of these intolerant threads,

+1

SummerSummit

They should have not been there. If you don't have sufficient ID then you don't get to vote. Photo ID should be mandatory.