Ulster Bank League 2015-2016 Talk/Gossip/Rumours

Tarf1234

sfbdqc wrote: »

Why? it's aimed at academy players, UCD have the majority and will continue to have the majority of them with Scholarships etc.

They play consistently in the AIL as is, bar injury, u20 or A team commitments. So they are exposed to that level consistently as well as being exposed to a higher level when playing A rugby.

Because they wouldn't necessarily get the academy players etc in the new format...

sfbdqc

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Because they wouldn't necessarily get the academy players etc in the new format...

Again why?

Players are going to UCD due to scholarships and college, Leinster will want players in UCD because it centralises them near to headquarters.

Suggesting academy players will suddenly stop playing for UCD is bizarre. It's the central hub of leinster academy players, certainly more likely to be in there than Belvo or Marys.

Tarf1234

sfbdqc wrote: »

Again why?

Players are going to UCD due to scholarships and college, Leinster will want players in UCD because it centralises them near to headquarters.

Suggesting academy players will suddenly stop playing for UCD is bizarre. I would think UCD are the one club guarenteed to be in this new league.

They could be with UCD for the competition below this competition or as a college side and still be in whatever club is in the new format. What would happen to the Academy guys in Lansdowne, Tarf, Belvo, Marys or Nure is the exact same point. How would that be any more or less 'bizarre'? Basing it on the number of Academy players there currently is not 100% relevant. I am not saying that 100% they would not be there. I just don't think they have the ideal club structure for what it would be aimed at.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this but there are numerous players who have been in UCD and not played with the college.

sfbdqc

Tarf1234 wrote: »

They could be with UCD for the competition below this competition or as a college side and still be in whatever club is in the new format. What would happen to the Academy guys in Lansdowne, Tarf, Belvo, Marys or Nure is the exact same point. How would that be any more or less 'bizarre'? Basing it on the number of Academy players there currently is not 100% relevant. I am not saying that 100% they would not be there. I just don't think they have the ideal club structure for what it would be aimed at.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this but there are numerous players who have been in UCD and not played with the college.

You seem to have an agenda against UCD. A team who would probably be top of the league if they won't so affected by callups to u20 rugby & the senior leinster team.

How many academy players does Tarf have? 1? Same with Marys.
Terenure have 2.
UCD have a lot more and look set to continue to have a lot more going forward. To suggest UCD won't be one of the Leinster teams included in this new league is bizarre.

Tarf1234

sfbdqc wrote: »

You seem to have an agenda against UCD. A team who would probably be top of the league if they won't so affected by callups to u20 rugby & the senior leinster team.

How many academy players does Tarf have? 1? Same with Marys.
Terenure have 2.
UCD have a lot more and look set to continue to have a lot more going forward. To suggest UCD won't be one of the Leinster teams included in this new league is bizarre.

Not a huge fan but not coming from an Agenda. Struggling to see your huge defensive opinion on this. Have I deeply offended you?

Tarf 1 Academy plus 5 or 6 guys out of the academy in Leinster who still play AIL.

My point on Marys Terenure was one club would cover the geography. I'd guess at 5 between the 2 clubs in the same bracket as above. Academy is too narrow.

The comment of them being top of the league is not relevant in the current set up and would not be relevant in the future discussed set up.

sfbdqc

My point was that this league seems to be being setup as almost an academy league along with those club players who are still aspiring to play professional rugby.

Academy players playing for UCD isn't changing anytime soon, with the scholarships, location etc. Next season the vast majority of new academy players will be UCD club men, what's going to change that so that in the future suddenly academy players will turn down the scholarships offered to them and play for a different AIL club?

Whenever this league is created, UCD will still have the majority of academy players. They'll almost surely be invited to this academy league setup.

Nothing to be defensive about, I never got above Junior club level. But just find it bizarre that UCD, the club with the most academy players would be dismissed as not being a likely member of this new league.

Tarf1234

sfbdqc wrote: »

My point was that this league seems to be being setup as almost an academy league along with those club players who are still aspiring to play professional rugby.

Academy players playing for UCD isn't changing anytime soon, with the scholarships, location etc. Next season the vast majority of new academy players will be UCD club men, what's going to change that so that in the future suddenly academy players will turn down the scholarships offered to them and play for a different AIL club?

Whenever this league is created, UCD will still have the majority of academy players. They'll almost surely be invited to this academy league setup.

Nothing to be defensive about, I never got above Junior club level. But just find it bizarre that UCD, the club with the most academy players would be dismissed as not being a likely member of this new league.

My point is as a club they are not ideally set up. Which you are just ignoring.

You are also ignoring the fact that in other sports people get scholarships in UCD and play for other clubs. I am fully aware that at the moment that is not the case in rugby. I am suggesting that when things change that things might shock horror change....

Yet again I am not saying that they will 100% not get in/not be invited. It is my opinion that they are not ideally set up as a club. They have very little in terms of experienced players, no mini's/youth etc and have a small support base when compared to some of the Dublin senior clubs.

sfbdqc

I'm going to bother going over this over and over.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Just catching up on this and a lot going on with it. I'd imagine it would be simple enough, 8 teams 2 Munster (1 Limerick & 1 Cork), 4 Dublin, 1 Ulster and 1 Connacht. No promotion and no relegation.

My guess at the teams would be Con & YM/Garryowen, Tarf, Lansdowne, Belvo, Marys/Terenure, Hinch/Ballymena and Wegians. Would cover largely the geographic areas already represented in 1A.

You could have it set up lots of different ways but I think 8 teams with no B&I and no relegation/promotion would suit the pro game best. Would focus talent better and increase exposure for those at academy level and late bloomers.

I don't see there being 4 Dublin sides regardless of the set up of 1A at the moment. I think the B&I for promoting the provinces is better. Munster games have been played all through the provinces and its been great for promoting the "brand" of the provinces. It can attract more people to the sport. The mix of a strong AIL and the A teams is best.

phog wrote: »

I think it's worth looking at, I know some people dislike change but the AIL currently is as good as dead, the proposal might add something to it and help in the development of academy players

But this doesn't really help the AIL especially the other clubs. Suits those clubs that would be in this top division but how does it help the AIL as a whole?

Stainalert wrote: »

I think the issue here is that it rips away at the individual identity of the clubs. If you have players effectively allocated to you by the province/IRFU whilst it ensures these players all get game time it doesn't really do a huge amount to encourage talent below that level. Where does the allocation stop? If Leinster don't like how one of their clubs play do they replace the coaching team there?

If teams are allocated as above and no relegation is permitted surely the provinces outside of Leinster would be up in the arms. Leinster clubs are strong at the moment but could well be different in 5 years time

Yeah and do we really need to do that to the clubs? Why tear at the work done by many clubs? Yeah totally agree. Will there be change if in a few years time its Munster or Ulster clubs dominating the league?

sfbdqc wrote: »

UCD are certain to be in there.

Not sure how it would increase exposure for academy players.. it would essentially be the same as it is now, expect no B&I games, which would lessen exposure if anything.

I wouldn't be sure they are certain to be there. They may have a lot of academy players etc but how much influence and power do they have in the branch and IRFU compared to Lansdowne and other clubs from Leinster. Getting rid of the B&I isn't great as having it and other A interpros gets players playing in provincial systems which is needed.

Tarf1234

I wouldn't see it as a guarantee or a guaranteed success even if it does come in. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at something. The current situation is not good and is only getting weaker. I fear we will see the club game going further and further down hill if we just accept the way we are currently going. If we continue on the current path how long before we see more clubs getting in trouble financially and the AIL reducing in size until it is abandoned.

We could be wrong in the make up of the league and everyone is only guessing. It could be 8 it could be 10. Couldn't see it being anything other then that. Again only my thoughts on 4,2,1,1 it could just as easily be 2,2,2,2 or 3,2,2,1 or 3,3,1,1 or if it was 10 teams it could be any mix of that. I would imagine the IRFU/Provinces will not want to lose the B&I or go to 10 teams. As such I think this is all just another pipe dream that will never happen.

MrJones2013

This isn't going to go down well at all I know, but here it goes!

Could the IRFU look at the NZ structure and have something similar to the ITM cup. There are 15 counties represented in the current AIL (I think!), could the IRFU go down the road of an inter-county championship? Have a two conference premiership made up of the 15 counties represented in the AIL and have the top two counties from each conference play-off for the title? There could be a lower level championsip structure made up of the remaining 17 counties and the winners of that prompted to the premiership? The teams could be made up of contracted players (the provinces could declare who is made available and for what team) and also senior club players.

This doesn't help the current club situation but it gets the contracted players game time at a high and competitive level and feeding in to the provinces. The club game would suffer I know but we could go back to provincial senior leagues and the winners of each province playing in a round robin for the AIL title (similar to the AIL qualifier from the junior leagues but home and away).......just an idea, it'll probably enrage a few! I am a huge follower of the club game and remember the glory days of the 90's with massive crowds at AIL games (I followed my club around the country back then and still do) but unfortunately league has fallen asunder in recent times and most than likely we will never see those glory days again.

Just a thought!

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

This isn't going to go down well at all I know, but here it goes!

Could the IRFU look at the NZ structure and have something similar to the ITM cup. There are 15 counties represented in the current AIL (I think!), could the IRFU go down the road of an inter-county championship? Have a two conference premiership made up of the 15 counties represented in the AIL and have the top two counties from each conference play-off for the title? There could be a lower level championsip structure made up of the remaining 17 counties and the winners of that prompted to the premiership? The teams could be made up of contracted players (the provinces could declare who is made available and for what team) and also senior club players.

This doesn't help the current club situation but it gets the contracted players game time at a high and competitive level and feeding in to the provinces. The club game would suffer I know but we could go back to provincial senior leagues and the winners of each province playing in a round robin for the AIL title (similar to the AIL qualifier from the junior leagues but home and away).......just an idea, it'll probably enrage a few! I am a huge follower of the club game and remember the glory days of the 90's with massive crowds at AIL games (I followed my club around the country back then and still do) but unfortunately league has fallen asunder in recent times and most than likely we will never see those glory days again.

Just a thought!

Theres more than 15 counties involved off top of my head - around 17/18 I think. And that's not a bad idea. Would be great from marketing/PR perspective as well. Would be issues with some counties and only having 1/2 clubs but you could work around that.
Clubs don't want to go back to provincial leagues. They like and prefer the prestige of an all Ireland league.
When the crowds were huge at AIL games in 90s the provinces didn't exist. The league will never get like that again as the provinces have taken over

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Theres more than 15 counties involved off top of my head - around 17/18 I think. And that's not a bad idea. Would be great from marketing/PR perspective as well. Would be issues with some counties and only having 1/2 clubs but you could work around that.

I wasn't sure on the numbers to be honest, that was just a rough count. The junior clubs in the counties could feed in to the county team also obviously, especially in the 'weaker' counties.

I think this concept might help promote the sport better in the 'weaker' counties, especially the GAA strongholds where representing the county is the be all and end all

You could look at setting the relegation/promotion aside for a few seasons and introduce it when the lower tier is at a higher standard and able to step up and compete.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Clubs don't want to go back to provincial leagues. They like and prefer the prestige of an all Ireland league.

Don't we all but the clubs need to be financially sound, travelling from Highfield RFC to City of Derry RFC is a lot more expensive than travelling from Highfield RFC to Old Crescent RFC.

The inter-provicial round robin play-off would make the AIL still active and provide a national competition for the four top clubs in the country.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

When the crowds were huge at AIL games in 90s the provinces didn't exist. The league will never get like that again as the provinces have taken over

Sure don't I know. I'd rather go to a club game now than go to Thomond Park, at least at the club game you are surrounded by people who understand the sport and are not just there to be 'spotted' out and about! It's a pity, we were in the glory days without realising it!

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

I wasn't sure on the numbers to be honest, that was just a rough count. The junior clubs in the counties could feed in to the county team also obviously, especially in the 'weaker' counties.

I think this concept might help promote the sport better in the 'weaker' counties, especially the GAA strongholds where representing the county is the be all and end all

You could look at setting the relegation/promotion aside for a few seasons and introduce it when the lower tier is at a higher standard and able to step up and compete.

But then you have the counties where there is very few clubs at all. Its very hard to do. This concept would suit the counties where there is a considerable base already. It doesn't help the likes of a Donegal too much. Even Sligo which has an AIL club and has one of the highest representations of any club in the irish 20s this year is very limited. The appeal of this concept is potentially good but its too much too soon. You would need significant work on the grassroots to get this going.

Don't we all but the clubs need to be financially sound, travelling from Highfield RFC to City of Derry RFC is a lot more expensive than travelling from Highfield RFC to Old Crescent RFC.

The inter-provicial round robin play-off would make the AIL still active and provide a national competition for the four top clubs in the country.

That's an extreme but clubs want an all Ireland based league and you are limiting quality going back to regional leagues. Having a tiered national system rather than provincial leagues has to be the solution. What do you do about Connacht in you went to provincial leagues. There is only 4 senior clubs in Connacht. We already have the Bateman Cup which has replaced the All Ireland Cup which at one stage all senior sides took part in

Sure don't I know. I'd rather go to a club game now than go to Thomond Park, at least at the club game you are surrounded by people who understand the sport and are not just there to be 'spotted' out and about! It's a pity, we were in the glory days without realising it!

I think that's unfair and nonsense. The sport needs everyone who can attend and we're not in a position that we can say oh x is there just to be seen. They have as much right as anyone else and its not as if people are being stopped from attending games. The crowds are not there so we cant judge those who do attend.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That's an extreme but clubs want an all Ireland based league and you are limiting quality going back to regional leagues. Having a tiered national system rather than provincial leagues has to be the solution.

It's an extreme but it is a fact, Highfield have to make two trips to the north this season. Ballynahinch in Divison 1A will have 9 trips south this season which has to be a serious expense. I would much rather an AIL but from the financial point of view for the clubs a provincial league has to be more cost effective.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I think that's unfair and nonsense. The sport needs everyone who can attend and we're not in a position that we can say oh x is there just to be seen. They have as much right as anyone else and its not as if people are being stopped from attending games. The crowds are not there so we cant judge those who do attend.

Call it what you want but it is my opinion. I did not say that people don't have the right to be there, what I am saying is that I would much rather spend my Saturdays at a club game with like-minded people who understand the sport and are passionate about their club and have been for a long time.

I am definitely all for promoting the sport, the professional game is the pinnacle of the sport in the country, it's a pity that people don't bring their families to their local club as well as to the professional games to help promote the game at grassroots level as well as the highest level of the sport.

Tarf1234

MrJones2013 wrote: »

It's an extreme but it is a fact, Highfield have to make two trips to the north this season. Ballynahinch in Divison 1A will have 9 trips south this season which has to be a serious expense. I would much rather an AIL but from the financial point of view for the clubs a provincial league has to be more cost effective.

Call it what you want but it is my opinion. I did not say that people don't have the right to be there, what I am saying is that I would much rather spend my Saturdays at a club game with like-minded people who understand the sport and are passionate about their club and have been for a long time.

I am definitely all for promoting the sport, the professional game is the pinnacle of the sport in the country, it's a pity that people don't bring their families to their local club as well as to the professional games to help promote the game at grassroots level as well as the highest level of the sport.

Can only imagine the travel is a significant issue for the clubs outside of Dublin in particular and the clubs less well funded/supported. I know the cost of travel for us is quite high and that is for a Dublin club who only have 5 trips outside of Dublin.

I personally think there are too many leagues in the All Ireland. There is a huge amount of money in clubs being wasted to a large extent when it could be put to better use. However, I fully acknowledge and accept that clubs to a certain extent choose the competition they compete in.

On your last 2 points I 100% wholeheartedly agree with. You've captured exactly my opinion too.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

It's an extreme but it is a fact, Highfield have to make two trips to the north this season. Ballynahinch in Divison 1A will have 9 trips south this season which has to be a serious expense. I would much rather an AIL but from the financial point of view for the clubs a provincial league has to be more cost effective.

2 trips isn't that bad in the general scheme of things. Plenty of other clubs have to deal with worse. Of course there will be significant expense for some clubs but clubs want the AIL. Its a selling point and can attract attention that wont be got without all lreland aspect.

Call it what you want but it is my opinion. I did not say that people don't have the right to be there, what I am saying is that I would much rather spend my Saturdays at a club game with like-minded people who understand the sport and are passionate about their club and have been for a long time.

I am definitely all for promoting the sport, the professional game is the pinnacle of the sport in the country, it's a pity that people don't bring their families to their local club as well as to the professional games to help promote the game at grassroots level as well as the highest level of the sport.

I go to more amateur rugby than most on this forum. Last count is nearly 80 amateur games plus 9/10 pro games but you are not like most people and you cant knock people for preferring the club game and theres plenty who go to club games week in week out who haven't a notion about how the game is played/refereed.
The Pro game can and does attract people to the amateur game and the provinces and IRFU certainly could be doing more.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Can only imagine the travel is a significant issue for the clubs outside of Dublin in particular and the clubs less well funded/supported. I know the cost of travel for us is quite high and that is for a Dublin club who only have 5 trips outside of Dublin.

I personally think there are too many leagues in the All Ireland. There is a huge amount of money in clubs being wasted to a large extent when it could be put to better use. However, I fully acknowledge and accept that clubs to a certain extent choose the competition they compete in.

On your last 2 points I 100% wholeheartedly agree with. You've captured exactly my opinion too.

If there's too many teams/leagues in the AIL how many should there be? If number of AIL divisions dropped it primarily suits the bigger clubs and the clubs already in the top divisions.

MrJones2013

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I personally think there are too many leagues in the All Ireland. There is a huge amount of money in clubs being wasted to a large extent when it could be put to better use. However, I fully acknowledge and accept that clubs to a certain extent choose the competition they compete in.

Agree with you here, they could do with reducing the number by 10-20 at least, 50 senior clubs is a massive amount.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I go to more amateur rugby than most on this forum. Last count is nearly 80 amateur games plus 9/10 pro games but you are not like most people and you cant knock people for preferring the club game and theres plenty who go to club games week in week out who haven't a notion about how the game is played/refereed.

Good stuff, the more that go to club games the better, it's a pity there aren't more like you that try to get to both! You're right about people who go to club games that don't have a notion about how the game is played/refereed, these are generally old school lads who don't fully understand that the game has evolved from the days of brown leather balls with laces and also see every referee as having a vendetta against their club!

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The Pro game can and does attract people to the amateur game and the provinces and IRFU certainly could be doing more.

Agree with you on this, RTE could do more also. 3 minutes on 'Against the Head' 6 nights a year plus a token AIL game at the business end of the season is ridiculous!

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Agree with you here, they could do with reducing the number by 10-20 at least, 50 senior clubs is a massive amount.

Do we really need to go to down by this amount and this would significantly impact on more rural clubs which isn't great and would see more players leaving rural clubs to strengthen the city clubs. That isn't better for the sport overall.

Agree with you on this, RTE could do more also. 3 minutes on 'Against the Head' 6 nights a year plus a token AIL game at the business end of the season is ridiculous!

But where is the demand for this. The crowds are not so great at AIL that we need much more. Clubs need to be doing better themselves/be more innovative with their own marketing/PR etc

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Do we really need to go to down by this amount and this would significantly impact on more rural clubs which isn't great and would see more players leaving rural clubs to strengthen the city clubs. That isn't better for the sport overall.

There were 5 senior clubs in Limerick in the AIL in it's hayday, clubs like Bruff, Thomond, Nenagh and Cashel were all junior clubs and feeding in to the senior city clubs. Now these are all senior clubs themselves which is great to see but traditional senior clubs like Shannon have suffered significantly from this.

You are probably right regarding the rural clubs but I think that a lot of these clubs are always going to be strong as there is a huge parochial atmosphere within these clubs. Whether they are strong at senior level or at junior level would more than likely be determined by economic factors (in the sense of the economy as a whole and not just within the club) but they will always be strong. I know that Bruffs semi-decline has been mainly affected by economic factors but they still have a serious under-age structure in place and are hugely competitive at all levels of under-age.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But where is the demand for this. The crowds are not so great at AIL that we need much more. Clubs need to be doing better themselves/be more innovative with their own marketing/PR etc

True I suppose, only the real die hards of the club game will tune in to a club game that is being televised.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

There were 5 senior clubs in Limerick in the AIL in it's hayday, clubs like Bruff, Thomond, Nenagh and Cashel were all junior clubs and feeding in to the senior city clubs. Now these are all senior clubs themselves which is great to see but traditional senior clubs like Shannon have suffered significantly from this.

And that's not a problem. Shannon and other Munster clubs particularly Limerick sides have lost a huge amount of players to Dublin sides. I don't feel any bit for Shannon as its better for the sport that community clubs like these are senior and theres more playing at a higher grade
If you reduce the number of senior clubs the rural clubs are affected more as they will not have the player base many city clubs have.

You are probably right regarding the rural clubs but I think that a lot of these clubs are always going to be strong as there is a huge parochial
atmosphere within these clubs. Whether they are strong at senior level or at
junior level would more than likely be determined by economic factors (in the sense of the economy as a whole and not just within the club) but they will always be strong. I know that Bruffs semi-decline has been mainly affected by economic factors but they still have a serious under-age structure in place and are hugely competitive at all levels of under-age.

Look at rural clubs and Clonakilty for example. Built up to senior and fairly high based on strong underage filling in but went down junior and while still have some strong age grade sides it will be very tricky to go up. Reducing number of senior clubs only suits the top sides.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't feel any bit for Shannon.

Nobody outside of 'The Parish' feels for Shannon, I most certainly don't anyway. What I am saying is one of the reasons they are where they are now is the fact that there are so many senior clubs in the region. There was not as many when they were winning AIL's regularly.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If you reduce the number of senior clubs the rural clubs are affected more as they will not have the player base many city clubs have.

Rural clubs, especially in Limerick anyway, have a massive region to pull players from. Look at the likes of Bruff, the closest clubs to them are Charleville to the south (20km away), Galbally to the east (24km away), Newcastle West to the West (40km away) and a number of city clubs to the north (30km away), that is a fairly significant region to pull from. Even NCW and Abbeyfeale are 20km apart. In Limerick City you have Garryowen, Old Crescent and Young Munsters all pulling from the same area, Richmond and St. Mary's pull from the same area, Shannon and Thomond pull from the same area.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Nobody outside of 'The Parish' feels for Shannon, I most certainly don't anyway. What I am saying is one of the reasons they are where they are now is the fact that there are so many senior clubs in the region. There was not as many when they were winning AIL's regularly.

More senior clubs isnt the reason at all. Significant talented players are playing with senior clubs because they want to play 20s and higher than junior rugby. Look at talented guys from Clonmel etc who will be in uni in Limerick will be playing with Bohs etc

Rural clubs, especially in Limerick anyway, have a massive region to pull players from. Look at the likes of Bruff, the closest clubs to them are Charleville to the south (20km away), Galbally to the east (24km away), Newcastle West to the West (40km away) and a number of city clubs to the north (30km away), that is a fairly significant region to pull from. Even NCW and Abbeyfeale are 20km apart. In Limerick City you have Garryowen, Old Crescent and Young Munsters all pulling from the same area, Richmond and St. Mary's pull from the same area, Shannon and Thomond pull from the same area.

It is and isn't a large region to pull from as competition from other sports is very different. Rugby wont be as strong in schools and population is very different....

No games in most divisions for a few weeks but Highfield host Rainey in 2B Saturday and then Bective host Seapoint on Wednesday also in 2B

MrJones2013

We're gone off topic slightly and on to another debate. The fact is that the AILs status has declined significantly over the last 15 years or so. Playing numbers are increasing which is great but there are still only 4 professional teams in the country. The IRFU need to either look at a tier between the AIL and the provinces (lets call a spade a spade, the B&I cup is a meaningless competition) otherwise players will be lost to foreign leagues like the French Pro D2 and the Championship in England or worse, lost to the game altogether.

Personally I think something like an inter-county championship or something along those lines would create that tier and a high standard of competition for players while also letting the clubs around the country keep their own identity.

Munster itself is split in to 4 regions during underage selection for the representitive sides, North Munster, South Munster, East Munster and West Munster, could the other provinces do something similar and look at a regionalised league competition at adult level?

GavMan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But where is the demand for this. The crowds are not so great at AIL that we need much more. Clubs need to be doing better themselves/be more innovative with their own marketing/PR etc

I appreciate your point but there is a significant cohort of the viewing population who would sit down and watch any type of Rugby on TV of a Saturday afternoon, but they simply wouldn't get up off the couch to go to a club.

However, if they seen the product regularly and appreciated the quality, then they might be encouraged to go out to a club to watch it every now and then when it wasn't on TV.

Your default response to most things is that clubs need to do more. Most of time that is somewhat valid. However, sometimes when Mohammed wont come to the mountain, you must bring the mountain to Mohammed. No Club or grouping of clubs has the ability to get games onto TV in real terms. Only the union and broadcasters can get this done in a meaningful way.

Tarf1234

I genuinely believe that if we (those who care about club rugby) don't actively do something the (adult) club game is going to be in significant trouble. The hand of the IRFU needs to be forced, they do not care about club rugby.

Just to get back to an earlier question, I think 50 teams is too many. 20 between 2 leagues would be the ideal for me. Just my opinion and not something I would defend to the hilt.

Off the beat and track but someone mentioned it earlier, I hate the 1A/B and 2A/B/C naming. It is ludicrous, call them what they are 1,2,3,4,5.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

We're gone off topic slightly and on to another debate. The fact is that the AILs status has declined significantly over the last 15 years or so. Playing numbers are increasing which is great but there are still only 4 professional teams in the country. The IRFU need to either look at a tier between the AIL and the provinces (lets call a spade a spade, the B&I cup is a meaningless competition) otherwise players will be lost to foreign leagues like the French Pro D2 and the Championship in England or worse, lost to the game altogether.

Personally I think something like an inter-county championship or something along those lines would create that tier and a high standard of competition for players while also letting the clubs around the country keep their own identity.

Munster itself is split in to 4 regions during underage selection for the representitive sides, North Munster, South Munster, East Munster and West Munster, could the other provinces do something similar and look at a regionalised league competition at adult level?

Of course the AILs status has declined in the past 15 years. Look at the difference of the provinces in the same period. The provinces have doubled the number of games they play per season. The provinces have taken over which was always going to be the way.
Playing numbers have increased hugely at age grade level but theres issues with retention at the oldest grades then adult rugby.
There will only ever be 4 professional teams in Ireland. We cant support any more than that.
There isn't a need for this next tier of inter county. Use the A teams better.
Connacht kind of has regional sides but ultimately it doesn't need them as the numbers aren't there and geographic space is a considerable issue. Leinster already has 5 regional teams and uses them in the same manner as Munster. Ulster doesn't want to or feels it doesn't need to use this kind of set up.
We have enough problems with giving players in clubs games at adult level and its hard enough keeping club sides going without any other issues. County teams aren't needed.

GavMan wrote: »

I appreciate your point but there is a significant cohort of the viewing population who would sit down and watch any type of Rugby on TV of a Saturday afternoon, but they simply wouldn't get up off the couch to go to a club.

However, if they seen the product regularly and appreciated the quality, then they might be encouraged to go out to a club to watch it every now and then when it wasn't on TV.

RTE are cutting back on rugby coverage. Who else would show club rugby and be willing to do it on a regular basis? The demand isn't actually there for club games to be shown. If there was crowds big enough to demand coverage then maybe but if not enough people are willing to attend club games why should it be on tv.

Your default response to most things is that clubs need to do more. Most of time that is somewhat valid. However, sometimes when Mohammed wont come to the mountain, you must bring the mountain to Mohammed. No Club or grouping of clubs has the ability to get games onto TV in real terms. Only the union and broadcasters can get this done in a meaningful way.

Its my default because its my experience of the club set up. The clubs need to create a better atmosphere/setting for club games. Shannon have done a lot this season by partnering with Russell's bar and doing food promos etc.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I genuinely believe that if we (those who care about club rugby) don't actively do something the (adult) club game is going to be in significant trouble. The hand of the IRFU needs to be forced, they do not care about club rugby.

Just to get back to an earlier question, I think 50 teams is too many. 20 between 2 leagues would be the ideal for me. Just my opinion and not something I would defend to the hilt.

Off the beat and track but someone mentioned it earlier, I hate the 1A/B and 2A/B/C naming. It is ludicrous, call them what they are 1,2,3,4,5.

That suits you and your club if we changed to 20 teams as it would probably lead to more players moving to the top clubs. Possibly 50 is too many but dropping the numbers by 30 isn't going to happen and shouldn't. Possibly the fifth division could go but the third and fourth no.
I don't mind too much about the names. Possibly change them to Divisions 1A/B. 2. 3A/B with some form of regionalisation/North South cut off for the third division to help reduce costs.

Tarf1234

As I said just my personal thoughts on 20 teams and 2 leagues. I just think 50 is too many. I'd be happy enough for it to go to 4 leagues of 10. I believe numbers of support would actually improve per game if people didn't have the massive commute.

In relation to it helping my club, I don't think it would have any major impact. We have been a very strong club for a long time now and will always do well in terms of getting players in considering our location and isolation from other senior clubs.

In relation to clubs needing to do more I think that is unfair on many clubs. Everyone is doing there best and we are all just volunteers doing it for the love of our individual clubs. When the senior clubs tried to organise as a group to deal with the IRFU they wouldn't deal with us. When your governing body treat you with such distain what are you supposed to do?

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

As I said just my personal thoughts on 20 teams and 2 leagues. I just think 50 is too many. I'd be happy enough for it to go to 4 leagues of 10. I believe numbers of support would actually improve per game if people didn't have the massive commute.

In relation to it helping my club, I don't think it would have any major impact. We have been a very strong club for a long time now and will always do well in terms of getting players in considering our location and isolation from other senior clubs.

In relation to clubs needing to do more I think that is unfair on many clubs. Everyone is doing there best and we are all just volunteers doing it for the love of our individual clubs. When the senior clubs tried to organise as a group to deal with the IRFU they wouldn't deal with us. When your governing body treat you with such distain what are you supposed to do?

That's fair enough that its your opinion. Id disagree as it would only suit those at the top and to be fair it would suit. Look at the numbers of players whove joined your club from all round...
The commute will still be significant for many clubs regardless of any changes.
Ive done PR work with my own club and all done as a volunteer and I don't think im being unfair. Clubs certainly could be better at promoting themselves with more innovative practices/schemes etc.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There isn't a need for this next tier of inter county. Use the A teams better.

Any suggestions on how to use the A teams better? The B&I cup is a shambles! Maybe a Pro 12 'A' league like in England?! I can't see this being too well supported though. It would be another soulless competition but the players would be getting game time.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There will only ever be 4 professional teams in Ireland. We cant support any more than that.

County teams aren't needed.

Earlier you said this wasn't a bad idea?!

Yes there will only ever be 4 professional teams in Ireland but how many professional players are here and of that number how many actually play meaningful games regularly? There needs to be something done to get these players competitive games on a regular basis.

Also as I said before the playing numbers are higher than ever before and there needs to be a stage there for players to competitive games to keep them playing domestically or risk losing them to Pro D2 or the championship as we currently are or as I said even worse, losing them from the sport altogether.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

In relation to clubs needing to do more I think that is unfair on many clubs. Everyone is doing there best and we are all just volunteers doing it for the love of our individual clubs. When the senior clubs tried to organise as a group to deal with the IRFU they wouldn't deal with us. When your governing body treat you with such distain what are you supposed to do?

The IRFU neglected the club game for too long while the provinces were blossoming, they now see the provinces struggling and realise that they need the club game. Hopefully it isn't too little too late but they need to find a sustainable solution for the future so the club game can flourish beside the professional game.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That's fair enough that its your opinion. Id disagree as it would only suit those at the top and to be fair it would suit. Look at the numbers of players whove joined your club from all round...
The commute will still be significant for many clubs regardless of any changes.
Ive done PR work with my own club and all done as a volunteer and I don't think im being unfair. Clubs certainly could be better at promoting themselves with more innovative practices/schemes etc.

To be honest 20 was my ball park based on 10 teams being the ideal league size. I just think for the number of clubs 50 is too many. I reckon 40 would be much more appropriate then 50.

In terms of it being better for our club I don't think it would really impact. The people who join us would be joining us anyway. The people coming to play AIL 1 would be coming to play AIL 1 regardless of what league they were in. I think it may be more of a positive for the lower 1B and 2a/b teams in term of recruitment.

While the commute may still be significant for some it would be significantly reduced for the majority I would have thought.

In every situation people can do better. I think more needs to be done to support the volunteers who run club rugby. Little or no support is given. Plenty of people who volunteer to help in their club are not necessarily doing what they are good at or have any experience at. We are in a very fortunate position of having great PR and Marketing guys but not every club is in that position.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Any suggestions on how to use the A teams better? The B&I cup is a shambles! Maybe a Pro 12 'A' league like in England?! I can't see this being too well supported though. It would be another soulless competition but the players would be getting game time.

I don't see the B&I Cup as a shambles. Getting sponsorship, incentives that the Championship sides take it more seriously than they have recently. Increasing the pot so that teams are incentivised to want to win it. Hopefully in time the welsh sides now being regional sides could help but considering the issues in Wales I don't see that.
These county teams and a county championship wont work. what aims would it have? Players are getting game time in AIL and A interpros. At least with A teams the players are playing in similar systems/patterns that they will be playing when they move up to pro12 level. That's not the case with county teams. The county set up would be completely uneven as well which doesn't help things. How many county teams would you have? How would have a competition with it?

Earlier you said this wasn't a bad idea?!

Isnt bad idea but it isn't needed

Yes there will only ever be 4 professional teams in Ireland but how many professional players are here and of that number how many actually play meaningful games regularly? There needs to be something done to get these players competitive games on a regular basis.

Use the A teams and the AIL. That's what the provinces will want. Don't have stockpiles of contracted players in some AIL clubs and none in others

Also as I said before the playing numbers are higher than ever before and there needs to be a stage there for players to competitive games to keep them playing domestically or risk losing them to Pro D2 or the championship as we currently are or as I said even worse, losing them from the sport altogether.

Players numbers are higher than ever at age grade but is that really true about adult level? The drop off at certain age groups is huge

The IRFU neglected the club game for too long while the provinces were blossoming, they now see the provinces struggling and realise that they need the club game. Hopefully it isn't too little too late but they need to find a sustainable solution for the future so the club game can flourish beside the professional game.

But the club game can really flourish if it focuses on being an amateur community based set up. The IRFU didn't do enough for clubs and still don't in some areas but that will always be the case. It isn't possible for all to be happy.

Tarf1234

MrJones2013 wrote: »

The IRFU neglected the club game for too long while the provinces were blossoming, they now see the provinces struggling and realise that they need the club game. Hopefully it isn't too little too late but they need to find a sustainable solution for the future so the club game can flourish beside the professional game.

Unfortunately, they do not want to help or give into any of the clubs request which might actually work. My understanding is Nucifera is completely shocked at how little the IRFU know about THEIR club game. He is the only one in there trying to get some value out of it.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

To be honest 20 was my ball park based on 10 teams being the ideal league size. I just think for the number of clubs 50 is too many. I reckon 40 would be much more appropriate then 50.

Possibly 40 is more appropriate but do you see clubs and IRFU voting to change this?

In terms of it being better for our club I don't think it would really impact.
The people who join us would be joining us anyway. The people coming to play AIL 1 would be coming to play AIL 1 regardless of what league they were in. I think it may be more of a positive for the lower 1B and 2a/b teams in term of recruitment.

While the commute may still be significant for some it would be significantly reduced for the majority I would have thought.

Would they be joining ye anyway?

In every situation people can do better. I think more needs to be done to support the volunteers who run club rugby. Little or no support is given. Plenty of people who volunteer to help in their club are not necessarily doing what they are good at or have any experience at. We are in a very fortunate position of having great PR and Marketing guys but not every club is in that position.

In terms of doing more for the volunteers what do you want to be done for them? What support do you want to be provided?

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Possibly 40 is more appropriate but do you see clubs and IRFU voting to change this?
Would they be joining ye anyway?

In terms of doing more for the volunteers what do you want to be done for them? What support do you want to be provided?

I am and will always be a sceptic when it comes to the IRFU, Branches and some clubs... My thoughts are opinions not expectations.

Absolutely yes. Why wouldn't they? Having 2C or no 2C would have little or no impact for us. Most players who join us come from 1A or 1B clubs anyway. It really is not me trying to make things better/easier for Clontarf.

Actually assist in making the game more available to the public/all of this discussion in general. I've always wanted to see more days of rugby as in 1st 2nds and 20s playing on the same day or some variances of that. For example what I'd like to see is Tarf playing Belvo on a Saturday - 20s play at 12:30, 2nds on at 2:30 and firsts on at 4.30. Before you start I know it would not work for all clubs.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't see the B&I Cup as a shambles.

You are the first person I have heard say that this competition isn't a shambles. It certainly seems to help the championship sides more than the provinces in terms of generating gates. Many Irish provincial players don't even rate the competition!

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

These county teams and a county championship wont work.

It was just a suggestion as something needs to be done!

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What aims would it have? Players are getting game time in AIL and A interpros.

Get players more meaningful game time.

I'm not sure that they are getting much game time in the AIL as the provinces have a hold over them. Galwegians trained in the week leading up to an AIL game with one of their provincial players due to start, he was called up to the Connacht squad late in the week (on the Friday I think) and brought to a Pro 12 game as an extended squad member and not used.

6 games a season in the meaningless 'A' interpros hardly counts as a huge amount of game time.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Isnt bad idea but it isn't needed.

Something is needed.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Use the A teams and the AIL. That's what the provinces will want. Don't have stockpiles of contracted players in some AIL clubs and none in others.

Which clubs get which players? What happens to the non-contracted players who are training with their club week-in week-out then a contracted player is released to the club and his club are told they have to play him. He gets frustrated and walks away from the sport, would you blame him?

The amateur vs professional debate is a huge issue that the IRFU need to address, I know it's hard to keep everyone happy but something needs to be done. The respect between the amateur game and the professional game needs to be a two way street.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I am and will always be a sceptic when it comes to the IRFU, Branches and some clubs... My thoughts are opinions not expectations.

Absolutely yes. Why wouldn't they? Having 2C or no 2C would have little or no impact for us. Most players who join us come from 1A or 1B clubs anyway. It really is not me trying to make things better/easier for Clontarf.

Actually assist in making the game more available to the public/all of this discussion in general. I've always wanted to see more days of rugby as in 1st 2nds and 20s playing on the same day or some variances of that. For example what I'd like to see is Tarf playing Belvo on a Saturday - 20s play at 12:30, 2nds on at 2:30 and firsts on at 4.30. Before you start I know it would not work for all clubs.

The clubs have the power to get changes made and it is the clubs that make up the branch and the IRFU....
1sts/2nds/20s on the same day with the same teams playing across all grades would be great but in terms of referees and fitting all clubs into same competitions just isn't possible country wide.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

You are the first person I have heard say that this competition isn't a shambles. It certainly seems to help the championship sides more than the provinces in terms of generating gates. Many Irish provincial players don't even rate the competition!

That there is issues with the competition doesn't mean that its a shambles. Getting a sponsor and working that welsh regions and English championship sides are more interested in it. Championship sides games in B&I Cup is included in their season tickets so that will help with the attendance. The championship sides are the main focus of their fans. That isn't the case with the A sides.

It was just a suggestion as something needs to be done!

Possibly something needs to be done so why not fix(if you think it needs significant fixing) what we have rather than add a tier that isn't needed.

Get players more meaningful game time.

What is meaningful game time? Players get "meaningful" game time through league, A games as it stands

I'm not sure that they are getting much game time in the AIL as the provinces have a hold over them. Galwegians trained in the week leading up to an AIL game with one of their provincial players due to start, he was called up to the Connacht squad late in the week (on the Friday I think) and brought to a Pro 12 game as an extended squad member and not used.

That always happens and anything changing will not stop that from happening.

6 games a season in the meaningless 'A' interpros hardly counts as a huge amount of game time.

A sides play minimum of 10-12 games a year. Considering a significant number who play A grade are playing AIL, Irish 20s. What do you want done.

Something is needed.

But county teams just take from the AIL. And who would run them? Provincial A teams are better and we don't have the depth for county teams? Like if we were to have county teams. How many do you have? Who coaches them? Who funds them? What do they play in? When do they play?

Which clubs get which players? What happens to the non-contracted players who are training with their club week-in week-out then a contracted player is released to the club and his club are told they have to play him. He gets frustrated and walks away from the sport, would you blame him?

They drop down to 2nds. Just like any team. That's nature of having professional players playing with amateurs on amateur teams.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Possibly something needs to be done so why not fix(if you think it needs significant fixing) what we have rather than add a tier that isn't needed.

Possibly something needs to be done is an understatement. I'd much rather fix what is there myself and also I don't think I am the only one who feels it needs significant fixing. I am just throwing out ideas and possible scenarios (which is turning in to an exhausting exercise on this forum ) that could be looked at.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What is meaningful game time? Players get "meaningful" game time through league, A games as it stands

'Meaningful' game time to me is a competitive game played at high intensity with the result having a bearing on a competition that has some significance and value. No one is going to remember who won the 'A' interprovincials in a few years time but people will remember who won the AIL, well rugby people will anyway.

'A' games can be like training matches as the intensity levels aren't the same as they would be in a competitive league. Also there is generally wholesale changes when 'A' fixtures are played, not every player plays 10-12 games a season for the 'A' side.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They drop down to 2nds. Just like any team. That's nature of having professional players playing with amateurs on amateur teams.

Rugby players have big egos, if this happens a lad a couple of times he isn't going to hang around to be honest.

Stainalert

Have to say I agree with Lost Sheep (This doesn't happen too often!) I don't see the need for county teams. Would be a costly way of replicating the AIL and to me would not lift standards or interest.

For me the solution is pretty simple scrap B&I , keep A Interpros, and place a much greater emphasis on a more concentrated AIL - 10 team format is fine but 5 divisions is too many and unnecessary. Provincial coaches should be compelled to support the AIL by IRFU. Regular TV slot would be really good. Independent Website with more video clips, more live match streaming (with a bit more production) & statistics (I know some of this is already on irishrugby.ie but could be far more comprehensive).

20's games prior to AIL is a great idea and if number of referees is the problem we just go out and get more referees.

Set up a league Mgmt made up of member clubs and IRFU whose responsibility is to govern and promote the league - forget about the "IRFU club committee" or whatever it is called.

And yes clubs need to market themselves and games better - that is a given but it is hard when there is so little effort from the IRFU

Change some of the rules - 7 subs not 5 is a no brainer. Promote a more attacking open game by reffing the game in a way that promotes expansive rugby eg actually enforce things like offside and crooked put ins - If the ref can't manage it empower the touch judges to do so.

All very implementable and at no great cost and remember there will be a saving if the B&I is scrapped.

Tarf1234

Stainalert wrote: »

Have to say I agree with Lost Sheep (This doesn't happen too often!) I don't see the need for county teams. Would be a costly way of replicating the AIL and to me would not lift standards or interest.

For me the solution is pretty simple scrap B&I , keep A Interpros, and place a much greater emphasis on a more concentrated AIL - 10 team format is fine but 5 divisions is too many and unnecessary. Provincial coaches should be compelled to support the AIL by IRFU. Regular TV slot would be really good. Independent Website with more video clips, more live match streaming (with a bit more production) & statistics (I know some of this is already on irishrugby.ie but could be far more comprehensive).

20's games prior to AIL is a great idea and if number of referees is the problem we just go out and get more referees.

Set up a league Mgmt made up of member clubs and IRFU whose responsibility is to govern and promote the league - forget about the "IRFU club committee" or whatever it is called.

And yes clubs need to market themselves and games better - that is a given but it is hard when there is so little effort from the IRFU

Change some of the rules - 7 subs not 5 is a no brainer. Promote a more attacking open game by reffing the game in a way that promotes expansive rugby eg actually enforce things like offside and crooked put ins - If the ref can't manage it empower the touch judges to do so.

All very implementable and at no great cost and remember there will be a saving if the B&I is scrapped.

Agreed on every point of the above.

MrJones2013

Stainalert wrote: »

Have to say I agree with Lost Sheep (This doesn't happen too often!) I don't see the need for county teams. Would be a costly way of replicating the AIL and to me would not lift standards or interest.

The county thing was just a suggestion and not something I would be in huge favour myself personally as I am a life long fan of the club game. It was just a thought based on the NPC (ITM Cup) in NZ and trying to get fringe players more games without treading on club players told like the scenario I mentioned.

Stainalert wrote: »

Provincial coaches should be compelled to support the AIL by IRFU. Regular TV slot would be really good. Independent Website with more video clips, more live match streaming (with a bit more production) & statistics (I know some of this is already on irishrugby.ie but could be far more comprehensive).

Agree with you on this, the AIL should be recognised as a pathway to the provincial sides by both the IRFU and the Provinces and fringe players made play in AIL games more regularly. This is a tricky one though, look at the Galwegians example I was on about earlier and also who plays with which club and what division?

Stainalert wrote: »

20's games prior to AIL is a great idea and if number of referees is the problem we just go out and get more referees.

Very good idea, I remember playing a 20's game against Buccs a few years back after their seniors played and there was a bit of a buzz around as some of the senior players/supports stayed on, good experience for a 20 year old at the time.

Stainalert wrote: »

And yes clubs need to market themselves and games better - that is a given but it is hard when there is so little effort from the IRFU

Change some of the rules - 7 subs not 5 is a no brainer. Promote a more attacking open game by reffing the game in a way that promotes expansive rugby eg actually enforce things like offside and crooked put ins - If the ref can't manage it empower the touch judges to do so.

All very implementable and at no great cost and remember there will be a saving if the B&I is scrapped.

These points are all very true, will we get David Nucifora on the phone

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Possibly something needs to be done is an understatement. I'd much rather fix what is there myself and also I don't think I am the only one who feels it needs significant fixing. I am just throwing out ideas and possible scenarios (which is turning in to an exhausting exercise on this forum ) that could be looked at.

It isn't an understatement. Of course you're not the only person who thinks significant change is needed. But that doesn't mean we need to go to something so radical when smaller changes are needed.

'Meaningful' game time to me is a competitive game played at high intensity with the result having a bearing on a competition that has some significance and value. No one is going to remember who won the 'A' interprovincials in a few years time but people will remember who won the AIL, well rugby people will anyway.

A Interpros have more value for the provinces as the provinces have more control. Of course nobody is going to really remember who wins the A intepros but its not as if there is many who know who wins AIL anyway or would even if there was significant changes made to it.

'A' games can be like training matches as the intensity levels aren't the same as they would be in a competitive league. Also there is generally wholesale changes when 'A' fixtures are played, not every player plays 10-12 games a season for the 'A' side.

So you alter what the A teams play. The A teams and A games have advantages club games will never have and never can have. And that has to be kept.

Stainalert wrote: »

Have to say I agree with Lost Sheep (This doesn't happen too often!) I don't see the need for county teams. Would be a costly way of replicating the AIL and to me would not lift standards or interest.
For me the solution is pretty simple scrap B&I, keep A Interpros, and place a much greater emphasis on a more concentrated AIL - 10 team format is fine but 5 divisions is too many and unnecessary. Provincial coaches should be compelled to support the AIL by IRFU. Regular TV slot would be really good. Independent Website with more video clips, more live match streaming (with a bit more production) & statistics (I know some of this is already on irishrugby.ie but could be far more comprehensive).

Scrapping the British and Irish Cup shouldn't happen and wont happen. 5 divisions isn't really too much and it affects the junior leagues. What do you do to compel provincial coaches to support the AIL.
Where are you going to get regular TV coverage? Who will provide all this video clips and statistics? What statistics do you want and who will compile them?

20's games prior to AIL is a great idea and if number of referees is the problem we just go out and get more referees.
Set up a league Mgmt made up of member clubs and IRFU whose responsibility is to govern and promote the league - forget about the "IRFU club committee" or whatever it is called.
And yes clubs need to market themselves and games better - that is a given but it is hard when there is so little effort from the IRFU
Change some of the rules - 7 subs not 5 is a no brainer. Promote a more attacking open game by reffing the game in a way that promotes expansive rugby eg actually enforce things like offside and crooked put ins - If the ref can't manage it empower the touch judges to do so.

All very implementable and at no great cost and remember there will be a saving if the B&I is scrapped.

I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?
Whats your magic solution to get more referees? I ref and ive asked plenty to do it but most people will run a mile and never want to try referee a game. IRFU club committee or whatever its called is made up of member clubs and club members. Who from the clubs do you want on this committee? What exactly do you want the IRFU to change with marketing?
5 subs isn't really that much of an issue. Its to help the lower levels...
Its just not possible to give touch judges more powers at AIL level. They are touch judges at AIL level not assistant referees.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

The county thing was just a suggestion and not something I would be in huge favour myself personally as I am a life long fan of the club game. It was just a thought based on the NPC (ITM Cup) in NZ and trying to get fringe players more games without treading on club players told like the scenario I mentioned.

NZ rugby is the national sport and we don't have that. Fringe players play AIL and you simply do that and work more on that. Im a life long fan of the club game. I go to more club games than most here and in general. We don't have the support levels to support an NPC level competition. I don't see provincial players dropping down treading on AIL players. Its the way at all levels. It happens when Senior players come back from injury and players on the 2nds have to drop down to bench or 3rds.....

Agree with you on this, the AIL should be recognised as a pathway to the provincial sides by both the IRFU and the Provinces and fringe players made play in AIL games more regularly. This is a tricky one though, look at the Galwegians example I was on about earlier and also who plays with which club and what division?

The AIL is recognised as a pathway to the pro game and you cant say that it isn't. Most will come through the academies and not directly through just the clubs but fringe players do play AIL quite a lot..

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isn't an understatement.

It's an understatement, the AIL is at an all time low. Something significant does need to be done by the IRFU and the clubs to inject life back in to the AIL.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So you alter what the A teams play. The A teams and A games have advantages club games will never have and never can have.

I understand what you mean by this, A teams will use the same patterns of play, set piece calls, etc as the senior provincial sides. Should they be trying to get more A games so? Keep your beloved B&I and also try a Pro 12 'A' league like I suggested and keep contracted professional players more or less totally seperate from the amateur game? Maybe just allow academy players play AIL?

Teams travel to play Pro 12 games anyway, it would be an added expense to bring extra players but there would be benefits from an 'A' league. If Munster are playing Cardiff on Friday, they could play an 'A' game the night before in Cardiff or even earlier on the Friday......again just a suggestion.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?

Why do you disagree with this? The 20's is also an AIL competition. 20's games are generally played on Saturdays already, J1 games are generally on Sundays and have been for as long as I remember (In Munster anyway). J2 games won't be as appealling to the supporters, they'd rather see up and coming talent in the form of 20's rather than what is generally recognised as a social side.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It happens when Senior players come back from injury and players on the 2nds have to drop down to bench or 3rds.....

As I said before rugby players have egos. Here in Limerick a lot of the clubs 3rd XV are almost independant of the club themselves. Players who consider themselves 'Senior' players will drop down to 2nds as they are still in the shop window for the senior side but very few (some do I know) will drop down to a 3rd XV.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

It's an understatement, the AIL is at an all time low. Something significant does need to be done by the IRFU and the clubs to inject life back in to the AIL.

The clubs could do more to get people to go to games. Work better on facilities and providing entertainment beyond simply the rugby to get more in the gate. AIL far from an all time low. You are placing all/most of the blame on the IRFU when its the clubs that make up the league. Its the clubs that need to do most of the marketing to get people in the gate

I understand what you mean by this, A teams will use the same patterns of play, set piece calls, etc as the senior provincial sides. Should they be trying to get more A games so? Keep your beloved B&I and also try a Pro 12 'A' league like I suggested and keep contracted professional players more or less totally seperate from the amateur game? Maybe just allow academy players play AIL?

Yes more A games and games for contracted players. Academy players are playing AIL quite a lot...

Why do you disagree with this? The 20's is also an AIL competition. 20's games are generally played on Saturdays already, J1 games are generally on Sundays and have been for as long as I remember (In Munster anyway). J2 games won't be as appealling to the supporters, they'd rather see up and coming talent in the form of 20's rather than what is generally recognised as a social side.

j1 is not a social side. J1s at least shouldn't be. In many areas clubs have 2/3/4 sides below their AIL side so 2nds are not social and are directly linked to the senior side. 2nds players are working not like 20s and many find it hard to have social life considering wont go out before a game and cant after with work on a Monday.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The clubs could do more to get people to go to games. Work better on facilities and providing entertainment beyond simply the rugby to get more in the gate. AIL far from an all time low. You are placing all/most of the blame on the IRFU when its the clubs that make up the league.

Better facilities cost money, money is generated by gates, gates come from matches. They are rugby clubs so that is always going to be the primary source of entertainment/revenue.

I've been following the the AIL since it's inception it's pretty rock bottom at the moment. I'm not saying the standard is at an all time low, I am saying the level of interest is at an all time low.

I'm not placing all/most of the blame on the IRFU, I agree clubs could be doing more but a lot of parents will bring their kids to training or under age matches on a Saturday/Sunday morning and then bring them to a pro game in the evening rather than attending their own senior sides AIL games with them.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

j1 is not a social side. J1s at least shouldn't be. In many areas clubs have 2/3/4 sides below their AIL side so 2nds are not social and are directly linked to the senior side. 2nds players are working not like 20s and many find it hard to have social life considering wont go out before a game and cant after with work on a Monday.

I never said J1 is a social side, I said that a J2 fixture before a Senior AIL game will not generate the same level of interest as a 20's game, it's a lot lower standard and more of a social side than a 20's side and as I also said 20's is an AIL competition also so it makes more sense that a 20's fixture is played before a senior game. If a club don't have a 20's side or if the 20's side are playing away then definitely a J2 game could be a curtain raiser. All depends on pitch quality/facilities though!

J1 games, in Munster anyway, have been played on Sundays for as long as I can remember, this won't change, junior clubs probably won't go for it and it suits senior sides also as subs/squad players that don't get a run for the senior side on Saturday are available on Sunday. Maybe they might move to Monday evening fixtures as is the case with some J1 games in Munster at the moment but it won't be moved to before a Senior game on a Saturday.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Why do you disagree with this?

You still haven't clarified why you disagree with this? (Just wondering your reasons for disagreeing that a 20s game before an AIL game makes less sense than a J1/J2 game when it's also an AIL competition)

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Better facilities cost money, money is generated by gates, gates come from matches. They are rugby clubs so that is always going to be the primary source of entertainment/revenue.
I've been following the the AIL since it's inception it's pretty rock bottom at the moment. I'm not saying the standard is at an all time low, I am saying the level of interest is at an all time low.
I'm not placing all/most of the blame on the IRFU, I agree clubs could be doing more but a lot of parents will bring their kids to training or under age matches on a Saturday/Sunday morning and then bring them to a pro game in the evening rather than attending their own senior sides AIL games with them.

Better facilities does cost money but to get more in the gate you have to improve your facilities. If you have better facilities you can attract more people to games and keep them at games.

I never said J1 is a social side, I said that a J2 fixture before a Senior AIL game will not generate the same level of interest as a 20's game, it's a lot lower standard and more of a social side than a 20's side and as I also said 20's is an AIL competition also so it makes more sense that a 20's fixture is played before a senior game. If a club don't have a 20's side or if the 20's side are playing away then definitely a J2 game could be a curtain raiser. All depends on pitch quality/facilities though!

A J1 game will attract as much interest as 20s before an AIL game and it doesn't exactly make more sense to play 20s simply because its part of an all Ireland competition.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

You still haven't clarified why you disagree with this? (Just wondering your reasons for disagreeing that a 20s game before an AIL game makes less sense than a J1/J2 game when it's also an AIL competition)

20s being an all ireland tournament doesn't mean it should be played with AIL senior league. The j1 competition makes sense as it gives those playing j1 rugby a chance to have sundays off and considering their will be much more players who work/have jobs etc playing j1 it gives them the chance to be able to go out on a Saturday night. J1 will train directly with the senior team as well so it ties in there. In many clubs the 20s will train separately to seniors and 20s is fine on a sunday in Leinster.

Stainalert

Reply to Lost Sheep


Scrapping the British and Irish Cup shouldn't happen and wont happen. 5 divisions isn't really too much and it affects the junior leagues. What do you do to compel provincial coaches to support the AIL.
Where are you going to get regular TV coverage? Who will provide all this video clips and statistics? What statistics do you want and who will compile them?

Hopefully you are wrong about the B&I.

Nucifora is the man to ensure provincial coaches support the AIL.
Schools games get shown on Setanta. If not possible set up an independent website to provide live streams and highlights - clubs send in their videos for editing etc. IRFU already use a video production company for the clips they do show.

Stats are already there just need to be compiled and interpreted. Not talking about huge level of detail to begin with - things like top points scorer, top try scorer etc. in an easily accessible format


I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?

Think a national 20s dimension would be exciting, no reason why 2nds can't be fitted in as well

Whats your magic solution to get more referees? I ref and ive asked plenty to do it but most people will run a mile and never want to try referee a game.

More energy required by IRFU and all involved - lots of incentive for young ambitious refereees

IRFU club committee or whatever its called is made up of member clubs and club members.

Ah not really - guys on this committee have more loyalty to the IRFU than their clubs.

Who from the clubs do you want on this committee?

Directors / chairmen of rugby - guys that get things done

What exactly do you want the IRFU to change with marketing?

More effort & more consistency. Some of their coverage is excellent but it is too sporadic eg what has happened the player of the month awards? Match reports hit or miss from week to week - just not consistent enough

5 subs isn't really that much of an issue. Its to help the lower levels...

It is an issue and is not up to speed with changes in laws of the games - 7 subs will give more young players game time, help develop younger props and reduce the need for uncontested scrums

Its just not possible to give touch judges more powers at AIL level. They are touch judges at AIL level not assistant referees.

Why isn't it possible? Make it possible. Make them assistant referees. Surely it would help their development. Main ref has enough on his plate.

brokenhooker

National 20's would be a joke, Leinster teams would dominate.

MrJones2013

brokenhooker wrote: »

National 20's would be a joke, Leinster teams would dominate.

I was thinking along the lines of the existing 20's competition structure but games being played as a curtain raiser to senior games where possible, it is probably up to the individual clubs to push this though.

The 20's competition is a national competition after the conference stages. Leinster teams are dominating this as it is with 4 out the last 5 winners being Leinster clubs as well as dominating the quarter-final stages already.

Would a national 20's league (in place of the existing conferences) as suggested be more competitive? I'd imagine it would end up being dominated by the Leinster teams also as well as giving the so called 'bigger' clubs more pull when it comes to recruiting players at 20's level.