Ulster Bank League 2015-2016 Talk/Gossip/Rumours

Tarf1234

Well said stainalert. 20s makes most sense but no need to exclude J1/2.

National 20s wouldn't work. Just look at the current 20s set ups. Can't even agree on an age. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen this year.

Is it just me or do TJs not already have those powers? They just rarely get involved.

Couldn't agree more on the point in relation to getting actual club people running the club game. IRFU guys who are involved are clubmen in name only.

Would love to see a basic stats list at the very least

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert could you not have used multi quote button as its easier to navigate points.....

Stainalert wrote: »

Reply to Lost Sheep

Scrapping the British and Irish Cup shouldn't happen and wont happen. 5 divisions isn't really too much and it affects the junior leagues. What do you do to compel provincial coaches to support the AIL.
Where are you going to get regular TV coverage? Who will provide all this video clips and statistics? What statistics do you want and who will compile them?

Hopefully you are wrong about the B&I.

Nucifora is the man to ensure provincial coaches support the AIL.
Schools games get shown on Setanta. If not possible set up an independent website to provide live streams and highlights - clubs send in their videos for editing etc. IRFU already use a video production company for the clips they do show.

Stats are already there just need to be compiled and interpreted. Not talking about huge level of detail to begin with - things like top points scorer, top try scorer etc. in an easily accessible format

What are on about me being wrong about B&I?
Schools games get shown as theres demand for the schools games. Is that there for club games when club games are on weekends and there is multiple other live sport on television as competition.
Who would run this independent website?
Who would fund these live streams and highlights. Where do you see clubs going to send in these videos. The games that are shown already are IRFU videos. Who's going to expand this.
What stats are taking. Why don't you start taking the stats yourself and then show the IRFU that this is something someone should do as theres an interest in this kind of stuff.
Im compiling stats on try scorers, points scorers for my own club since they joined the AIL and will expand it to yellow cards, red cards amongst other things when I get the time

I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?

Think a national 20s dimension would be exciting, no reason why 2nds can't be fitted in as well

A national dimension isn't needed for 20s. It already exists in terms of the playoffs. 20s is already overly dominated by Trinity, UCD, Lansdowne and then 1/2 others varying on the year in Leinster while in Munster Shannon, Garryowen, Con and then maybe Munsters, Bohs, UCC every so often. A national league at 20s isn't needed.
Tying j1s to the senior team is the way to go as the j1s are directly linked to the seniors. They train together. The interaction between players will be closer as players drop between each team etc.

Whats your magic solution to get more referees? I ref and ive asked plenty to do it but most people will run a mile and never want to try referee a game.

More energy required by IRFU and all involved - lots of incentive for young ambitious refereees

What do you mean by "more energy required by IRFU"? What are all these incentives you want to put in place? What kind of incentives? Who would provide these incentives?

IRFU club committee or whatever its called is made up of member clubs and club members.

Ah not really - guys on this committee have more loyalty to the IRFU than their clubs.

This fear of the establishment is ridiculous... The guys on this committee care and have loyalty to clubs. They wouldn't be there otherwise.

Who from the clubs do you want on this committee?

Directors/chairmen of rugby - guys that get things done

And why does that make them better simply because they are directly linked to their club. They will be selfish and think primarily of whats best for them and clubs similar to them. Potential for growth is limited.

What exactly do you want the IRFU to change with
marketing?

More effort & more consistency. Some of their coverage is excellent but it is too sporadic eg what has happened the player of the month awards? Match reports hit or miss from week to week - just not consistent enough

How do you propose for their to be more effort/more consistency? Clubs have to lead the marketing as its in the locality that clubs need the marketing to get people into games. The medium is the message and the clubs have to be cleverer. Where are the innovative marketing strategies? This has to be club led and club driven as the clubs want and need more people attending games and paying on the gate more than the IRFU do. If IRFU are not/cant provide match reports then why are clubs not providing them on a wider/national scale instead of simply providing one for their own website/local newspaper etc

5 subs isn't really that much of an issue. Its to help the lower levels...

It is an issue and is not up to speed with changes in
laws of the games - 7 subs will give more young players game time, help develop younger props and reduce the need for uncontested scrums

5 subs helps down the levels as there is more players available for more teams which helps provide more rugby for all. Players as you have said before don't want to be out on both a Saturday and Sunday. This helps that. Maybe its because my own club always has enough front row cover. Between starters and 5 subs we could easily have 6/7 guys capable of playing front row. But 5 subs is still not that much of an issue. Possibly increase it to 6 but not 7. Help the lower levels and keep more players for those levels.

Its just not possible to give touch judges more powers at AIL level. They are touch judges at AIL level not assistant referees.

Why isn't it possible? Make it possible. Make them assistant referees. Surely it would help their development. Main ref has enough on his plate.

Its not going to happen. Those running the line in the AIL can only adjudicate on Touch, Kicks at goal and foul play. They can talk to the referee at down time during the game and at half time to indicate trends in the game like consistent offside etc but they will not be given more powers than that

The Lost Sheep

brokenhooker wrote: »

National 20's would be a joke, Leinster teams would dominate.

Its not going to happen for multiple reasons. Cost, difference in standards etc etc

MrJones2013 wrote: »

I was thinking along the lines of the existing 20's competition structure but games being played as a curtain raiser to senior games where possible, it is probably up to the individual clubs to push this though.

The 20's competition is a national competition after the conference stages. Leinster teams are dominating this as it is with 4 out the last 5 winners being Leinster clubs as well as dominating the quarter-final stages already.

Would a national 20's league (in place of the existing conferences) as suggested be more competitive? I'd imagine it would end up being dominated by the Leinster teams also as well as giving the so called 'bigger' clubs more pull when it comes to recruiting players at 20's level.

Would Leinster u20s change to play Saturdays? Would this league be more competitive than the existing provincial leagues?
Munster u20 sides dominated the Frazer McMullen in the 00s with UCC and UL Bohs winning 2/3 titles each but Dublin clubs have dominated since. I don't see a national league being more competitive and costs go up and is that needed?
What would this change mean for the divisions below the top flight? How would you structure this league?

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Well said stainalert. 20s makes most sense but no need to exclude J1/2.

National 20s wouldn't work. Just look at the current 20s set ups. Can't even agree on an age. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen this year.

Why would 20s make more sense than j1s? National 20s wont work. Munster are not going to change from 20s to 21s. Leinster will keep 20.5s

Is it just me or do TJs not already have those powers? They just rarely get involved.

TJs at amateur level are very different to pro and have significant less powers and that wont change.

Couldn't agree more on the point in relation to getting actual club people running the club game. IRFU guys who are involved are clubmen in name only.

To say IRFU members are clubmen in name only is nonsense. They are clubmen and directly involved in clubs still inspite of being involved in IRFU...

Would love to see a basic stats list at the very least

What are these basic stats you want? if you(and Stainalert etc) want these stats so much why not do it yourself and compile them yourself.

Stainalert

You say the B&I isn't going away - I hope it does

If you build it they will come - I believe there is an audience out there. Website wouldn't actually cost a lot - IRFU already putting resources into the stuff - with a couple of additional sponsors costs easily covered

Clubs send videos into central source - a lot of the videos the IRFU already show are club videos anyhow that have just been edited. Every club does stats - I do it for my club and have tried to expand it for other clubs - will post up here when it is more up to date

Scrap national 20's so - go with J1's or local 20's. 20's just works better in matching teams

There are plenty of incentives out there for young refs - travel , move into pro game etc

My fear of establishment comes from experience of dealing with these committees and has only been reaffirmed after recent meetings with these committees. These chairmen and directors of rugby get things done. A working group between the IRFU and these reps should ensure that selfish interests are parked to one side - let the clubs vote them in if you are worried about that.

More effort/more consistency? Self evident from the comments I made - My clubs sends a match report to the IRFU every week - some times they use it other times they go with their own report , other times they don't show a report.

5 subs - outdated

Don't see why touch judges can't work - IRFU has power to envoke it's own rules in this competition. IRFU have supplied touch judges and refs with mics in the past

MrJones2013

MrJones2013 wrote: »

I was thinking along the lines of the existing 20's competition structure but games being played as a curtain raiser to senior games where possible, it is probably up to the individual clubs to push this though.

The 20's competition is a national competition after the conference stages. Leinster teams are dominating this as it is with 4 out the last 5 winners being Leinster clubs as well as dominating the quarter-final stages already.

Would a national 20's league (in place of the existing conferences) as suggested be more competitive? I'd imagine it would end up being dominated by the Leinster teams also as well as giving the so called 'bigger' clubs more pull when it comes to recruiting players at 20's level.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Would Leinster u20s change to play Saturdays? Would this league be more competitive than the existing provincial leagues?
Munster u20 sides dominated the Frazer McMullen in the 00s with UCC and UL Bohs winning 2/3 titles each but Dublin clubs have dominated since. I don't see a national league being more competitive and costs go up and is that needed?
What would this change mean for the divisions below the top flight? How would you structure this league?

Read what I have highlighted in bold on my OP and what I have highlighted in bold on your latest post, are these points more or less identical?

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert could you please use multiquote to make this easier.....

Stainalert wrote: »

You say the B&I isn't going away - I hope it does

But it wont. You may not like it but A games and B&I cup are a necessary layer of the professional game.

If you build it they will come - I believe there is an audience out there. Website wouldn't actually cost a lot - IRFU already putting resources into the stuff - with a couple of additional sponsors costs easily covered

There is areas for growth but who is going to cover this? Where are these additional sponsors going to come from?

Clubs send videos into central source - a lot of the videos the IRFU already show are club videos anyhow that have just been edited. Every club does stats - I do it for my club and have tried to expand it for other clubs - will post up here when it is more up to date

Who will get clubs to send in these tapes? When you say stats what are you referring to? What specifically?

Scrap national 20's so - go with J1's or local 20's. 20's just works better in matching teams

There are plenty of incentives out there for young refs - travel, move into pro game etc

J1s works considerably better than 20s. 20s is played on Saturdays in Munster and previously in Connacht before they jumped across this season and it didn't get this increase in support and a j1 game played before/after an AIL game would garner significant more interest than 20s.

My fear of establishment comes from experience of dealing with these committees and has only been reaffirmed after recent meetings with these committees. These chairmen and directors of rugby get things done. A working group between the IRFU and these reps should ensure that selfish interests are parked to one side - let the clubs vote them in if you are worried about that.

Just because these chairmen and directors of rugby get things done in their own clubs doesn't mean that they are capable of directing change or implementing change on a national scale.
Ive dealt with the political nature of committees in one form or another before and just adding an additional layer of bureaucracy doesn't and wont lead to the changes you want.

5 subs - outdated

How is this outdated? Adult playing numbers are down. Number of teams clubs are fielding is down. This helps counteract the drop.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Stainalert could you please use multiquote to make this easier.....
But it wont. You may not like it but A games and B&I cup are a necessary layer of the professional game.

I'm an optimist !

There is areas for growth but who is going to cover this? Where are these additional sponsors going to come from?

The working group set up by the IRFU and clubs

Who will get clubs to send in these tapes? When you say stats what are you referring to? What specifically?

This is the clubs chance to get more publicity and show more value to their sponsors - I think they would be agreeable. As I said Top scorers , top try scorers - nothing too difficult


Just because these chairmen and directors of rugby get things done in their own clubs doesn't mean that they are capable of directing change or implementing change on a national scale.
Ive dealt with the political nature of committees in one form or another before and just adding an additional layer of bureaucracy doesn't and wont lead to the changes you want.

If they are properly mandated they will - They would do a lot of the work that the current committee are ill equipped to deal with

How is this outdated? Adult playing numbers are down. Number of teams clubs are fielding is down. This helps counteract the drop.

Rules around front-row replacements etc , concussion etc have all changed - This is a basic safety requirement if nothing else

PS No idea how to use Multi Quote

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Rules around front-row replacements etc , concussion etc have all changed - This is a basic safety requirement if nothing else

PS No idea how to use Multi Quote[/QUOTE]Click on the speech bubble button when you reply to a post. Because the way you originally posted reply to me previous post hasn't came up when I quoted you
The league isn't so big that more sponsors will come on board. Ulster Bank are title sponsors. I don't see anyone coming in unless you change the sponsorship model and a title sponsor is better for the league...

By properly mandated what do you assume they can do that others haven't?

If you are so interested in getting top try scorers listed etc. Why not do it yourself? If no one from IRFU/Clubs are willing to do it why not do it yourself and create a facebook page/twitter account that would then highlight these players and the leaders in the categories?

Tarf1234

I see no example or rationale behind J1s working better then 20s. I know in Leinster anyway that 20s is significantly better supported. 20s would also bring in the parents and friends of the players which J1s would not necessarily do. When I raised this point originally I did not mean that it had to happen at every game. My first example was of Belvo and Tarf playing 20s prior to an AIL game. I genuinely believe this would get plenty of people down to watch. I understand that it might not be practical or sensible in all fixtures.

Why in the name of God should a random person from one club have to collate all of the stats? The argument of why don't you do it yourself is incredibly petty. Is it really that big of an issue for the person who would be putting up all of the results etc. to keep a tracker and publish it also? The IRFU are our union and are supposed to support and promote our game. I cannot for the life of me see why you are defending them so adamantly.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I see no example or rationale behind J1s working better then 20s. I know in Leinster anyway that 20s is significantly better supported. 20s would also bring in the parents and friends of the players which J1s would not necessarily do. When I raised this point originally I did not mean that it had to happen at every game. My first example was of Belvo and Tarf playing 20s prior to an AIL game. I genuinely believe this would get plenty of people down to watch. I understand that it might not be practical or sensible in all fixtures.

You see lots of argument from adult rugby players that they dislike Sunday rugby as it means they struggle to have a social life. Move junior rugby(j1) to Saturday and tie it in with the mens senior side. They already train together so why not have them play together. 20s can play on Sunday and it doesn't impact them as much.
J1s would suit much more than 20s as they are the 2nd team of the club and many will be part of the senior squad and are training every week with the senior team.

Why in the name of God should a random person from one club have to collate all of the stats? The argument of why don't you do it yourself is incredibly petty. Is it really that big of an issue for the person who would be putting up all of the results etc. to keep a tracker and publish it also? The IRFU are our union and are supposed to support and promote our game. I cannot for the life of me see why you are defending them so adamantly.

So who is to do it? What staff members from the IRFU do you expect to do this and to travel to all these games to provide these stats? It wouldn't be a random person. A club appoints them to this role to do it. The IRFU are our union but that doesn't mean they have to do all this work that can be and should be done by the member clubs of the union.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You see lots of argument from adult rugby players that they dislike Sunday rugby as it means they struggle to have a social life. Move junior rugby(j1) to Saturday and tie it in with the mens senior side. They already train together so why not have them play together. 20s can play on Sunday and it doesn't impact them as much.
J1s would suit much more than 20s as they are the 2nd team of the club and many will be part of the senior squad and are training every week with the senior team.
So who is to do it? What staff members from the IRFU do you expect to do this and to travel to all these games to provide these stats? It wouldn't be a random person. A club appoints them to this role to do it. The IRFU are our union but that doesn't mean they have to do all this work that can be and should be done by the member clubs of the union.

Your argument doesn't mean it would get more people in the gate and that is the point at hand. I 100% agree with that point in terms of Sunday rugby being brutal for those of us in employment, that is a different days question. I don't see people playing 2 games in 1 day though and I think it would almost certainly stop players on the bench playing J1s. However, in saying that I would not have any massive reservations about J1s being played on Saturday as it would be the same for both sides. It is already done in the league rounds of the Leinster Senior cup to varying levels of success.

There is obviously someone putting up the scorers as they go onto the website in the match reports. I'm not sure who the exact employee is. Basic stats is all I'm looking for.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Your argument doesn't mean it would get more people in the gate and that is the point at hand. I 100% agree with that point in terms of Sunday rugby being brutal for those of us in employment, that is a different days question. I don't see people playing 2 games in 1 day though and I think it would almost certainly stop players on the bench playing J1s. However, in saying that I would not have any massive reservations about J1s being played on Saturday as it would be the same for both sides. It is already done in the league rounds of the Leinster Senior cup to varying levels of success.

There is obviously someone putting up the scorers as they go onto the website in the match reports. I'm not sure who the exact employee is. Basic stats is all I'm looking for.

That websites are updating stats and that doesn't mean all this extra can be done. If it isn't being done why not do it yourself or find someone who is of a similar belief as you to do it. Because something isn't being done doesn't mean that the IRFU have to fix it when the work can be done by the clubs and the resources they have.
J1s would get more in the gate from my involvement in playing both j1 and 20s in Munster and family whove played both in Leinster. It isn't a different question at all about Sunday Rugby being brutal for those who work. Its directly linked to what has been discussed here.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You see lots of argument from adult rugby players that they dislike Sunday rugby as it means they struggle to have a social life. Move junior rugby(j1) to Saturday and tie it in with the mens senior side. They already train together so why not have them play together. 20s can play on Sunday and it doesn't impact them as much.
J1s would suit much more than 20s as they are the 2nd team of the club and many will be part of the senior squad and are training every week with the senior team.
So who is to do it? What staff members from the IRFU do you expect to do this and to travel to all these games to provide these stats? It wouldn't be a random person. A club appoints them to this role to do it. The IRFU are our union but that doesn't mean they have to do all this work that can be and should be done by the member clubs of the union.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That websites are updating stats and that doesn't mean all this extra can be done. If it isn't being done why not do it yourself or find someone who is of a similar belief as you to do it. Because something isn't being done doesn't mean that the IRFU have to fix it when the work can be done by the clubs and the resources they have.
J1s would get more in the gate from my involvement in playing both j1 and 20s in Munster and family whove played both in Leinster. It isn't a different question at all about Sunday Rugby being brutal for those who work. Its directly linked to what has been discussed here.

I think Tarf1234 is saying the work on stats is already getting done by the IRFU and if someone just added an extra stats page to the website (using the existing data the IRFU have already) it would be very helpful and useful

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That websites are updating stats and that doesn't mean all this extra can be done. If it isn't being done why not do it yourself or find someone who is of a similar belief as you to do it. Because something isn't being done doesn't mean that the IRFU have to fix it when the work can be done by the clubs and the resources they have.
J1s would get more in the gate from my involvement in playing both j1 and 20s in Munster and family whove played both in Leinster. It isn't a different question at all about Sunday Rugby being brutal for those who work. Its directly linked to what has been discussed here.

Stainalert has answered the first point for me.


This is most certainly not the case in Leinster. We are talking about getting people in the gate. If it is different in Leinster and Munster then different approaches could be taken and I would have no objection to that. I would have thought 20s would be more likely to attract people who are not regular AIL attendees as well as they (and their family and friends) are more likely to be new to the club and club game.

I think anyone who suffers Sunday rugby will agree that it should be the last option in terms of days to play. Unfortunately with facilities and ref availability it's going to happen to someone. In Leinster J1 and 20s both play on Sundays currently.

MrJones2013

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I think anyone who suffers Sunday rugby will agree that it should be the last option in terms of days to play. Unfortunately with facilities and ref availability it's going to happen to someone. In Leinster J1 and 20s both play on Sundays currently.

20s play on Saturday and J1s play on Sunday down here in Munster at the moment. I think this suits senior clubs as alot of 20s play J1 also. I know a lot of senior clubs J1 sides are made up of a mixture of 20s players, fringe senior players and the odd J2 player so Sunday fixtures tend to suit senior clubs more (as far as I know anyway).

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

I think Tarf1234 is saying the work on stats is already getting done by the IRFU and if someone just added an extra stats page to the website (using the existing data the IRFU have already) it would be very helpful and useful

IRFU clearly don't see any demand for it so why not do it yourself or find someone to do it if IRFU clearly are not doing it.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

This is most certainly not the case in Leinster. We are talking about getting people in the gate. If it is different in Leinster and Munster then different approaches could be taken and I would have no objection to that. I would have thought 20s would be more likely to attract people who are not regular AIL attendees as well as they (and their family and friends) are more likely to be new to the club and club game.

Of course Sunday is the last option but from my experience of playing 20s with city club and also playing seconds it is 2nds that will attract more to games. And 20s certainly wont attract more families etc to club game

I think anyone who suffers Sunday rugby will agree that it should be the last option in terms of days to play. Unfortunately with facilities and ref availability it's going to happen to someone. In Leinster J1 and 20s both play on Sundays currently.

So moving 20s isn't going to happen as social rugby will be played on Saturday as is most age grade club and schools rugby so if you move 20s or j1(metro) to Saturday you have issues with referees as there already is a huge amount of games on Saturdays between AIL, leinster junior leagues divisions 1A/B, 2A/B etc and then age grade.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

20s play on Saturday and J1s play on Sunday down here in Munster at the moment. I think this suits senior clubs as alot of 20s play J1 also. I know a lot of senior clubs J1 sides are made up of a mixture of 20s players, fringe senior players and the odd J2 player so Sunday fixtures tend to suit senior clubs more (as far as I know anyway).

j1 has moved to Monday nights on odd occasions in Munster but is Sundays in Munster and that wont change.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

IRFU clearly don't see any demand for it so why not do it yourself or find someone to do it if IRFU clearly are not doing it.

Of course Sunday is the last option but from my experience of playing 20s with city club and also playing seconds it is 2nds that will attract more to games. And 20s certainly wont attract more families etc to club game
So moving 20s isn't going to happen as social rugby will be played on Saturday as is most age grade club and schools rugby so if you move 20s or j1(metro) to Saturday you have issues with referees as there already is a huge amount of games on Saturdays between AIL, leinster junior leagues divisions 1A/B, 2A/B etc and then age grade.
j1 has moved to Monday nights on odd occasions in Munster but is Sundays in Munster and that wont change.

There are far more new people at 20s games year in year out. The logic behind which is clear and obvious and I have given the rationale behind that. I see no rationale you have provided why you believe more new people would go to a J1 game. In Leinster that is just pure and simple not the case as much as you may repeat it.

One of the TJ's can referee the 20s games. We often have a TJ from a Firsts game on a Saturday refing our 20s the next day. I can think of 4 times it has happen us this season alone.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

j1 has moved to Monday nights on odd occasions in Munster but is Sundays in Munster and that wont change.

It won't move to Saturdays in Munster for the reasons I highlighted (Senior J1 sides being made up of 20s players and fringe/sub senior players). Monday night rugby is becoming more frequent and may end up utilised more in the Senior Seconds leagues.

I can't see the junior leagues moving from Sunday to Saturday though.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

There are far more new people at 20s games year in year out. The logic behind which is clear and obvious and I have given the rationale behind that. I see no rationale you have provided why you believe more new people would go to a J1 game. In Leinster that is just pure and simple not the case as much as you may repeat it.

Not from my experience and of my brother who has been playing 20s and j1 the past 2/3 seasons in Leinster leagues.
J1 ties in with the senior team directly much more than 20s. J1s playing Saturdays is much better than 20s. I speak from experience of playing 20s Saturdays and J1 Sundays and family whove been playing 20s Sundays...
Tying in 2nds with 1sts is much better than 20s.

One of the TJ's can referee the 20s games. We often have a TJ from a Firsts game on a Saturday refing our 20s the next day. I can think of 4 times it has happen us this season alone.

That's 2 games on different days. Changing it to 2 on 1 day. Most wont really agree to that.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not from my experience and of my brother who has been playing 20s and j1 the past 2/3 seasons in Leinster leagues.
J1 ties in with the senior team directly much more than 20s. J1s playing Saturdays is much better than 20s. I speak from experience of playing 20s Saturdays and J1 Sundays and family whove been playing 20s Sundays...
Tying in 2nds with 1sts is much better than 20s.
That's 2 games on different days. Changing it to 2 on 1 day. Most wont really agree to that.

I don't know what club he is at nor do I need to but that must be a very unique club in terms of Leinster rugby. Having been around both levels for the last 10 years and being at all of the seniors clubs on a regular basis when both levels are playing I just cannot accept that is the norm.

I don't really see the relevance of J1 team training with the seniors has. People are going to watch 2 separate games. We are talking about getting people in the door not making J1s a nicer level to play or having the 2 teams that train together playing.

On the TJ thing - was just an idea. I'll stop coming up with ideas and just shoot everything down instead, it appears much easier.

MrJones2013

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I don't know what club he is at nor do I need to but that must be a very unique club in terms of Leinster rugby. Having been around both levels for the last 10 years and being at all of the seniors clubs on a regular basis when both levels are playing I just cannot accept that is the norm.

I don't really see the relevance of J1 team training with the seniors has. People are going to watch 2 separate games. We are talking about getting people in the door not making J1s a nicer level to play or having the 2 teams that train together playing.

On the TJ thing - was just an idea. I'll stop coming up with ideas and just shoot everything down instead, it appears much easier.

Brilliant !

ArmchairQB

20s & Seniors on the same day is a great idea especially at senior clubs. 20s tend to attract decent crowds due to the entertainment value, quality of rugby being played and to have a look at the future stars of the club. J1s and Senior team play on different days as they need to use subs from senior for Junior if available especially front rows who need to get game time. Most Dublin senior clubs at the moment are aiming for or getting between 60-80% of their players from their 20s as they are the ones who tend to come thru to senior rather than J1 who approx 30% play senior more in seasons where there are major injuries but would not in general be 1st squad players or quality as ambitious ones move on or down to a level they can start regularly.

Sunday is the cause of alot of players dropping out of Rugby we have had 4 senior teams fielding at the same time on a Sunday which is a huge if not impossible struggle for clubs especially having to have 20 competent front rows as per the rules all available. Branches and Union can and should do more they are the Professional bodies staffed by professional personnel paid to do a professional job yet we only hear about them asking the clubs what to do. When we give suggestions they are not listened to the whole club scene is becoming increasingly frustrating with professional organizations dictating to amateur clubs but expecting them to be more professional. Things need to change IRFU & Provinces need to be pro-active not re-active. Come up with suggestions and put them to the clubs for discussion

Stainalert

IRELAND CLUB INTERNATIONAL Team & Replacements (v Scotland Clubs, 2016 Ulster Bank Club International Match, Temple Hill, Cork, Friday, March 18, kick-off 7.30pm):

15. Daniel Riordan (Old Belvedere)
14. James McInerney (Garryowen)
13. Stephen Murphy (UCD)


12. Matt D'Arcy (Clontarf) (capt)
11. Mark Roche (Lansdowne)
10. Scott Deasy (Lansdowne)
9. Neil Cronin (Garryowen)
1. Ian Prendiville (Lansdowne)
2. Max Abbott (Cork Constitution)
3. Ger Sweeney (Cork Constitution)
4. Ciaran Ruddock (St. Mary's College)
5. Philip Donnellan (Lansdowne)
6. Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne)
7. Paul Pritchard (Ballynahinch)
8. Tony Ryan (Clontarf)

Replacements:

16. Eddie Rossiter (Old Belvedere)
17. Declan Lavery (Old Belvedere)
18. Brian McGovern (St. Mary's College)
19. Connor Smyth (Ballymena)
20. John Fitzgerald (Dolphin)
21. Angus Lloyd (Dublin University)
22. Jack McDermott (Dublin University)
23. Rodger McBurney (Ballymena)

MrJones2013

Stainalert wrote: »

IRELAND CLUB INTERNATIONAL Team & Replacements (v Scotland Clubs, 2016 Ulster Bank Club International Match, Temple Hill, Cork, Friday, March 18, kick-off 7.30pm):

15. Daniel Riordan (Old Belvedere)
14. James McInerney (Garryowen)
13. Stephen Murphy (UCD)


12. Matt D'Arcy (Clontarf) (capt)
11. Mark Roche (Lansdowne)
10. Scott Deasy (Lansdowne)
9. Neil Cronin (Garryowen)
1. Ian Prendiville (Lansdowne)
2. Max Abbott (Cork Constitution)
3. Ger Sweeney (Cork Constitution)
4. Ciaran Ruddock (St. Mary's College)
5. Philip Donnellan (Lansdowne)
6. Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne)
7. Paul Pritchard (Ballynahinch)
8. Tony Ryan (Clontarf)

Replacements:

16. Eddie Rossiter (Old Belvedere)
17. Declan Lavery (Old Belvedere)
18. Brian McGovern (St. Mary's College)
19. Connor Smyth (Ballymena)
20. John Fitzgerald (Dolphin)
21. Angus Lloyd (Dublin University)
22. Jack McDermott (Dublin University)
23. Rodger McBurney (Ballymena)

Only 5 of the 23 are from the top 4 clubs in 1A? Are some players declining the oppertunity to play and making themselves unavailable for selection or just being overlooked?

Stainalert

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Only 5 of the 23 are from the top 4 clubs in 1A? Are some players declining the oppertunity to play and making themselves unavailable for selection or just being overlooked?

No academy or Irish U20 squad allowed. Surprised Barry Daly didn't get a look in and that there is no one from Young Munster

MrJones2013

Stainalert wrote: »

No academy or Irish U20 squad allowed. Surprised Barry Daly didn't get a look in and that there is no one from Young Munster

Yeah suprised with a few omissions, Young Munsters are flying high at the moment so no one from them is strange. There are a number of players from 1B too?!

brokenhooker

MrJones2013 wrote: »

There are a number of players from 1B too?!

So what? Talented players can play in 1b too.

MrJones2013

brokenhooker wrote: »

So what? Talented players can play in 1b too.

They can indeed, well spotted! Talented players can play in any division.

What I am suprised with is the number of the 23 made up by the top 4 sides in 1A is less than the number of players playing 1B.

brokenhooker

MrJones2013 wrote: »

They can indeed, well spotted! Talented players can play in any division.

What I am suprised with is the number of the 23 made up by the top 4 sides in 1A is less than the number of players playing 1B.

best teams doesn't necessarily mean best individuals.. also players may not want to play for the club side.

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

20s & Seniors on the same day is a great idea especially at senior clubs. 20s tend to attract decent crowds due to the entertainment value, quality of rugby being played and to have a look at the future stars of the club. J1s and Senior team play on different days as they need to use subs from senior for Junior if available especially front rows who need to get game time. Most Dublin senior clubs at the moment are aiming for or getting between 60-80% of their players from their 20s as they are the ones who tend to come thru to senior rather than J1 who approx 30% play senior more in seasons where there are major injuries but would not in general be 1st squad players or quality as ambitious ones move on or down to a level they can start regularly.

I just think j1s is a better fit in terms of keeping players involved. Giving 2nds players a chance for maybe a Sunday off. Some 2nds players will sub 1sts Saturdays and then have to tog out again on a Sunday. Cut that out.

Sunday is the cause of alot of players dropping out of Rugby we have had 4 senior teams fielding at the same time on a Sunday which is a huge if not impossible struggle for clubs especially having to have 20 competent front rows as per the rules all available. Branches and Union can and should do more they are the Professional bodies staffed by professional personnel paid to do a professional job yet we only hear about them asking the clubs what to do. When we give suggestions they are not listened to the whole club scene is becoming increasingly frustrating with professional organizations dictating to amateur clubs but expecting them to be more professional. Things need to change IRFU & Provinces need to be pro-active not re-active. Come up with suggestions and put them to the clubs for discussion

So why not make metro divisions play Saturdays and get more playing at adult level. There is more chances of those playing j1s to have families and more j1s will be involved in 1sts than 20s in a lot of clubs so playing j1s Saturdays gives more players a chance of a day off.
Sunday is a factor in some dropping out of the sport so you play 20s on a Sunday as theyre least likely to be affected by Sundays as they'll be in 3rd level and don't have same issues as those who are in full time employment.
This idea here that comes from quite a few that the provincial branches don't do a lot is a bit tiresome. The clubs are the branches. The clubs are those with the power to influence and initiate change.
If the clubs have issues they have to proactive and demand change. Be radical and try things to see about change occurring if they believe those professional staff are not doing enough.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Only 5 of the 23 are from the top 4 clubs in 1A? Are some players declining the oppertunity to play and making themselves unavailable for selection or just being overlooked?

Some wont make themselves available as will/may be more concentrated on their chances of winning league with club...

Stainalert wrote: »

No academy or Irish U20 squad allowed. Surprised Barry Daly didn't get a look in and that there is no one from Young Munster

And that's totally correct. No academy or irish 20s should be allowed play.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Yeah suprised with a few omissions, Young Munsters are flying high at the moment so no one from them is strange. There are a number of players from 1B too?!

As there should be. Top 1B sides should have quite a few involved in squad

Stainalert

Was making a factual statement Lost Sheep not giving an opinion - MrJones123 was surprised there weren't more players from the top 4 and no academy and U20 players is one explanation

MrJones2013

brokenhooker wrote: »

best teams doesn't necessarily mean best individuals.. also players may not want to play for the club side.

I'd say that might have something to do with it. Players might welcome the break, playing week in week out with the club may be enough of a commitment.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

As there should be. Top 1B sides should have quite a few involved in squad

I am not disputing this, what I am saying is you would expect to see one or two more from the top clubs in the top division and not less than the top clubs in the second tier. Maybe they are just better players, maybe certain players were considered but made themselves unavailable, who knows, it was just an observation.

Tarf1234

Starting team is all 1A barring Rudduck. The 1B guys are coming from 3 clubs that are seriously dominating the league barring Fitzgerald. There is a very good chance that Trinity and Marys will both go up now and be 1A sides. With injuries, work commitments etc. it's always going to be difficult to get everyone in, add to that selectors preference it is always going to be a difficult team to select and say is 100% fair. Most of us will have seen our own players most often and will be biased towards them.

In saying that there is no-one on that team I am not happy to see there and I'm really happy with that team. I really like the look of that backline in particular.

The Lost Sheep

Bective beat Seapoint in 2B last night 29-12 in a game moved from earlier in season..
Bective, in 8th, now 7 points ahead of Rainey who have a game in hand and that is against 7th placed Dungannon. Bar that game and Cork Con v Terenure in 1A. All sides have just 2 games in regular season left.

Trinity who play Edinburgh Academicals tomorrow night.... Oldest and second oldest clubs in continuous existence in the world playing against each other

The Lost Sheep

Con and Terenure next week but no other 1A/B games until April.

And some divisions to be decided that weekend potentially with 1B and 2C champions being decided.

The Lost Sheep

Colours last night. Trinity beat UCD. Well deserved win for DUFC.

2A. Nenagh v Cashel tomorrow is one of the ties of the weekend. 4th v 5th. Should be huge game. First time AIL tipp derby in Nenagh. 3 previous AIL clashes have been in Cashel.
Corinthians v Banbridge, Malone v Naas, Skerries v UCC, Thomond v Queens

2B: Sundays Well v Highfield. Also tomorrow night. 3rd v 2nd.
Armagh v Greystones, Bective v City of Derry, Barnhall v Rainey Old Boys, Seapoint v Dungannon

2C: 4 of the top 5 face off this weekend. 2nd v 3rd Big game in Tullamore
Boyne v Wanderers, Dundalk v Midleton, Kanturk v Sligo, Navan v Old Crescent, Tullamore v Bruff

The Lost Sheep

So any thoughts on this weekends games?

The Lost Sheep

1A
Cork Con 35 Terenure College 17
2A
Nenagh Ormond 6 Cashel 11, Corinthians 21 Banbridge 10, Malone 8 Naas 25, Skerries 5 UCC 32, Thomond 5 Queen's University 54
2B
Sunday's Well 13 Highfield 6, Armagh 15 Greystones 15, Bective Rangers 20 City of Derry 19, MU Barnhall 20 Rainey Old Boys 19, Seapoint 15 Dungannon 27
2C
Boyne 16 Wanderers 19, Dundalk 16 Midleton 15, Kanturk 20 Sligo 23, Navan 10 Old Crescent 31, Tullamore 8 Bruff 9

1A mainly decided. Playoff teams all but decided with Garryowen needing slip ups to make top 4. Clontarf to finish top but 2nd/3rd/4th all likely to change.
Ballynahinch relegated. Terenure or Wegians to also go down.

1B Marys 4 points ahead of Trinity. They play in the next round. Winner likely to be automatically promoted
Belfast Harlequins relegated.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

1A mainly decided. Playoff teams all but decided with Garryowen needing slip ups to make top 4. Clontarf to finish top but 2nd/3rd/4th all likely to change.
Ballynahinch relegated. Terenure or Wegians to also go down.

1B Marys 4 points ahead of Trinity. They play in the next round. Winner likely to be automatically promoted
Belfast Harlequins relegated.

Going to be very tough for whoever comes 2nd last in 1A. Trinity v Marys on Friday is a huge game. Winner take all by the looks of it.

I reckon Trinity will win.

1A top 4 all but decided now barring an absolute disaster from either YM or UCD. Can't see either happening.

Incredible to see YM second and -7 points difference at this stage of the season. Only 3 teams with positive points diff and they are all 100 plus.

The Sceptic

When are the promotion / relegation playoffs for each division?

The Lost Sheep

The Sceptic wrote: »

When are the promotion/relegation playoffs for each division?

Last round of games in division 2 are this weekend and last round in division 1 is April 16th. So I would assume the 1/2/3 weeks after the leagues finish....


Saturday
Clonmel v Enniscorthy, Bangor v Westpoort
April 9th
Westport v Clonmel, Enniscorthy v Bangor
April 16
Enniscorthy v Westport, Clonmel v Bangor
April 23
Play-off between team that finishes second and 9th in Division 2C

The Lost Sheep

Irishrugby.ie streaming the marys trinity 1B decider Friday night
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/37236.php#.Vv0WjE3JDcs

Tarf1234

So pretty much decision day in 1A this weekend. If Garryowen loose to YM top 4 is closed with a week to go. If Tarf beat Belvo they've top mathematically done. My guess is top 4 stays as is in term of teams and UCD and Con swap positions this week then swap back 2 weeks later. I think YM will take 2nd place.

Without doubt the biggest game in 1A this weekend is wegians v Nure. The loser getting into the playoff everyone wants to avoid.

In 1B game of the week is pretty obvious! Keep flipping in my head between who I think will win it but I think it'll be Marys.

Buccs will probably beat OW and secure 4th place and the final playoff spot.

The Lost Sheep

1A
Lansdowne 13 Cork Constitution 15, Galwegians 10 Terenure College 14, UCD 10 Ballynahinch 15, Garryowen 8 Young Munster 14, Old Belvedere 21 Clontarf 27
1B
Ballymena 22 Dolphin 23, Blackrock College 21 Shannon 19, Buccaneers 25 Old Wesley 9, UL Bohemians 34 Belfast Harlequins 0, St Marys College 9 Dublin University 5
2A:
Banbridge 16 Malone 10, Cashel 31 Thomond 5, Naas 33 Skerries 10, Queen's University 7 Corinthians 21, UCC 13 Nenagh Ormond 0
2B:
City of Derry 24 MU Barnhall 7, Dungannon 22 Armagh 30, Greystones 24 Sunday's Well 21, Highfield 59 Bective Rangers 7, Rainey Old Boys 15 Seapoint 20
2C:
Bruff 34 Dundalk 25, Midleton 21 Boyne 22, Old Crescent 34 Tullamore 29, Sligo 22 Navan 15, Wanderers 10 Kanturk 23,

Round Robin
Bangor 24 Westport 7, Clonmel v Enniscorthy - match postponed due to waterlogged pitch

The Lost Sheep

Playoffs for promotion from each of 2A/B/C
Division 2A:
Second last Division 1B v Cashel;
Banbridge v UCC;
Division 2B:
Skerries v Greystones;
City of Derry v Sunday's Well;
Division 2C:
Rainey Old Boys v Wanderers;
Tullamore v Bruff;
Ties to be played 16th April.

good_afternoon

Any thoughts on 1A? Are Tarf too strong? Looks like 1 all Dublin semi final and another all Munster, whether it is Cork or Limerick.

Impressive from Marys to come straight back up as champions also whats the the story with playoff in 1B, has any side in top 4 a chance of promotion?

Stainalert

Think Tarf are in a very good place but I really wouldn't write off UCD if they can get a few more bodies back

Con have really impressed me although they perhaps lack a bit more attack than the 2 Dublin teams anyhow - They have a very good pack

Munsters have really surprised me and their form is unrecognizable from the team that started the league

Marys have done really well and have gone a lot better than I expected also. I think Trinity can beat anyone on their day and for me will be very dangerous in the playoffs.

Tarf1234

Think we've a good chance if we keep everyone fit and keep getting players released.

UCD are going to be very strong and could easily win it if things fall their way.

Think YM are probably second favourites. Corkery has done a serious job. I think they'll be in the final.

Con a good side but might just lack that little something.

I think Ballymena and Trinity will fancy their chances in the playoff. A few teams have done that recently. Tarf and Belvo both completely dominated on their way back up a few years ago. OB were unbelievable that year

MrJones2013

I think Tarf have too much about them, in saying that UCD cannot be written off but I think home advantage will swing it for Tarf.

YM v Con will more than likely depend on which side has home advantage also. Can't see YM getting a BP against Lansdowne so Con may finish second. YM are gritty and tough to beat in Limerick, they are a bit hot and cold on the road but I don't think Con have the fire power to put sides away.

I reckon it will be a 'Tarf v Cons final with 'Tarf winning it out.

Tarf1234

MrJones2013 wrote: »

I reckon it will be a 'Tarf v Cons final with 'Tarf winning it out.

I'd be happy enough to see that :)