Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

bilston

Hmmmm just read that on uafc, if true it would be a staggering call by Nucifora.

He'll have succeeded in rightly pissing off both Ulster and Munster now.

former total

bilston wrote: »

Hmmmm just read that on uafc, if true it would be a staggering call by Nucifora.

He'll have succeeded in rightly pissing off both Ulster and Munster now.

I didn't agree with the alleged Moore decision but I could see some logic in it. If Victor was vetoed, it would be mental because the national team has more back rows than we can ever use.

case885

bilston wrote:

Hmmmm just read that on uafc, if true it would be a staggering call by Nucifora.

bilston wrote:

He'll have succeeded in rightly pissing off both Ulster and Munster now.

Who's development do the IRFU believe this will hinder?
Moore and veto are exactly the type of niq's the provinces need to be signing.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Ulster need a NIQ top class lock or a top class 6 or 8. Henderson can only fill one of those slots. If Vito is signed Henderson can focus on lock.

awec

If this guy is blocking transfers like this then he doesn't understand what his job is and should be shown the door.

What a joke.

aimee1

case885 wrote: »

Who's development do the IRFU believe this will hinder?
Moore and veto are exactly the type of niq's the provinces need to be signing.

Blocking Moore was the right decision if munster are to develop their own players and give them sufficient gametime. Only one hooker can be on the pitch at any given time and they have a few guys there who have potential. If these guys need to learn then they have a scrum coach who is a former international hooker who has won a grand slam, two HEC and the pro12. Munster wont be losing their current hookers to ireland barring major injury list in the next 2 seasons so Moore would be a roadblock

Vito on the other hand seems wrong when Ulster will lose Henry and Henderson to Ireland duty plus player welfare protocol. Also backrows these days need to be able to move between at least 2 of the positions to some degree, or else cover 2nd row in emergency so gametime isnt limited like in other positions like Hooker.

bilston

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Ulster need a NIQ top class lock or a top class 6 or 8. Henderson can only fill one of those slots. If Vito is signed Henderson can focus on lock.

Which makes it all the more bizarre that Nucifora and the IRFU would block the move. I'm not convinced this can be true because it just makes absolutely no sense at all. There are literally no up and coming back rowers at Ulster capable of getting within a sniff of the Irish squad so how this is in Ireland's interests is beyond me.

The only possible reason that springs to mind is that Nucifora wants to direct some IQ back rows to Ulster?

bilston

aimee1 wrote: »

Blocking Moore was the right decision if munster are to develop their own players and give them sufficient gametime. Only one hooker can be on the pitch at any given time and they have a few guys there who have potential. If these guys need to learn then they have a scrum coach who is a former international who has won a grand slam, two HEC and the pro12. Munster wont be losing their current hookers to ireland barring major injury list in the next 2 seasons so Moore would be a roadblock

Vito on the other hand seems wrong when Ulster will lose Henry and Henderson to Ireland duty plus player welfare protocol. Also backrows these days need to be able to move between at least 2 of the positions to some degree, or else cover 2nd row in emergency so gametime isnt limited like in other positions like Hooker.

My view on Moore is that it should have been allowed to go ahead simply because Ireland have Best, Strauss and Cronin in situ already with Herring getting better all the time as well. Yes Casey is one for the future but there is no need to rush him. He could have learned a lot from Moore, but there is onviously some logic to that decision. The Vito veto is so bizarre that I'm just not convinced it can be true!

CIARAN_BOYLE

bilston wrote: »

My view on Moore is that it should have been allowed to go ahead simply because Ireland have Best, Strauss and Cronin in situ already with Herring getting better all the time as well. Yes Casey is one for the future but there is no need to rush him. He could have learned a lot from Moore, but there is onviously some logic to that decision. The Vito veto is so bizarre that I'm just not convinced it can be true!

In my opinion Munster have the best two hookers in the country under the age of 28. They both need gametime and will not subject to being missing with Ireland over the next few years. So it makes sense to block the move. Vito is something different but I'm not sure I beleive.

Triumvirate

case885 wrote: »

Moore and veto are exactly the type of niq's the provinces need to be signing.

In terms of quality, yes. In terms of logic, only Vito. He plays a position where Ulster have consistently struggled to develop talent and have repeatedly relied on AIL standard players to fill in when there are even one or two injuries.

Moore plays a position where Munster have several options that are of an ideal age and potentially are still getting better and move into Irish contention. They'd be far better served by putting that money into a good outhalf.

aimee1

bilston wrote: »

My view on Moore is that it should have been allowed to go ahead simply because Ireland have Best, Strauss and Cronin in situ already with Herring getting better all the time as well. Yes Casey is one for the future but there is no need to rush him. He could have learned a lot from Moore, but there is onviously some logic to that decision. The Vito veto is so bizarre that I'm just not convinced it can be true!

By the time 2016-17 starts Best is 34 and both Cronin and Strauss are 30 so the need for Casey to develop in the next 2-3 years is fairly obvious. For me its a season too late for Moore to be allowed to sign

Triumvirate

bilston wrote: »

My view on Moore is that it should have been allowed to go ahead simply because Ireland have Best, Strauss and Cronin in situ already with Herring getting better all the time as well. Yes Casey is one for the future but there is no need to rush him. He could have learned a lot from Moore, but there is onviously some logic to that decision. The Vito veto is so bizarre that I'm just not convinced it can be true!

Casey turns 26 early next season. He's moving away from the young player demographic and towards his peak years. I'm not sure sitting behind Moore for every big game would be of much benefit to him at this point.

Niall Scannell is someone that could be an Irish starter in years to come. If Moore and Casey were both there then someone like Scannell would need to start looking at leaving as we haven't even mentioned Sherry yet.

Clegg

The only reason I could see for blocking a deal for Victor Vito would be if Ulster were to sign a flanker from another province. Connacht don't have any to spare and neither do Munster. Leinster would be the obvious supplier as they have a surplus of good flankers at the moment. Jordi Murphy may not be at the same level as Vito, but he's a good player and would start for any province he'd go to. Some sections of the fanbase don't rate him, but I've watched him play for years now and he's definitely a player who could fill the 6/8 jersey to s high standard. Of course this is all assuming that the plan is to get as many Irish players playing as possible with the view to developing them for the national side. I don't think that's ever actually been built upon.

Utah_Saint

Clegg wrote: »

The only reason I could see for blocking a deal for Victor Vito would be if Ulster were to sign a flanker from another province. Connacht don't have any to spare and neither do Munster. Leinster would be the obvious supplier as they have a surplus of good flankers at the moment. Jordi Murphy may not be at the same level as Vito, but he's a good player and would start for any province he'd go to. Some sections of the fanbase don't rate him, but I've watched him play for years now and he's definitely a player who could fill the 6/8 jersey to s high standard. Of course this is all assuming that the plan is to get as many Irish players playing as possible with the view to developing them for the national side. I don't think that's ever actually been built upon.

I'd happily take any flanker from Leinster. Ulster need good flankers now!

If the plan is to get more Irish players game time then they need to get a move and force moves. When Olding comes back you'd think Ulster could at least offload 1 centre to someone like Munster. Although with our injury record it could backfire!

Olding, McCloskey, Cave, Marshall, Arnold, PAYNE

molloyjh

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I'd happily take any flanker from Leinster. Ulster need good flankers now!

If the plan is to get more Irish players game time then they need to get a move and force moves. When Olding comes back you'd think Ulster could at least offload 1 centre to someone like Munster. Although with our injury record it could backfire!

Olding, McCloskey, Cave, Marshall, Arnold

We'll take Arnold in exchange for Dippy? Would love to see himself and Ringrose together in a season or two.

Utah_Saint

molloyjh wrote: »

We'll take Arnold in exchange for Dippy? Would love to see himself and Ringrose together in a season or two.

forgot to add Payne to my original list....maybe because he's a 15...:rolleyes:

Ryan is a very good flanker. Hindered by injuries and the quality available at leinster. He would do well at Ulster.

ulster_Beef

I am seriously pissed off.

The days of the Leinster/ Munster 5 in 7 year is over. The glory years and the golden generation has gone.

The provinces are in serious danger of turning into the Welsh and the dinosaurs in the IRFU are severely damaging the competitiveness of the provinces in favour of Ireland.

I could understand it IF his move was going to hinder Irish players. However, is it not a bit ****ed up allowing CP to come, when Ulster have enough backs to supply all 4 provinces but not a back row, where we are lacking?

A man who has jumped from job to job, revolts and sackings along the way.... Piss off

It won't be long before the provinces suffer and that will rub onto the Irish setup

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

The only reason I could see for blocking a deal for Victor Vito would be if Ulster were to sign a flanker from another province.

It's the only reason that is remotely logical but IMO we have four and maybe five back row players that can pass themselves at Champions Cup level

Iain Henderson who the IRFU probably want to play second row anyway. Chris Henry, Roger Wilson who is 34, Nick Williams who will probably be leaving us and then Robbie Diack, who is soft as treacle at times. I actually think we need two back rowers. Vito plus Murphy or Conan with Marshall going to Leinster seems a fair swap. We could even go after Farrell to replace Marshall anyway.

Clegg

A swap of say Luke Marshall/Olding/McCloskey for Jordi Murphy makes complete sense when you consider the strengths and weaknesses of both sides. But I suppose it may not be an easy job to actually get them to move. Can't do it against their will.

former total

ulster_Beef wrote: »

I am seriously pissed off.

The days of the Leinster/ Munster 5 in 7 year is over. The glory years and the golden generation has gone.

The provinces are in serious danger of turning into the Welsh and the dinosaurs in the IRFU are severely damaging the competitiveness of the provinces in favour of Ireland.

I could understand it IF his move was going to hinder Irish players. However, is it not a bit ****ed up allowing CP to come, when Ulster have enough backs to supply all 4 provinces but not a back row, where we are lacking?

A man who has jumped from job to job, revolts and sackings along the way.... Piss off

It won't be long before the provinces suffer and that will rub onto the Irish setup

Well, we don't know for sure if there is anything behind the Vito story, but...

Schmidt and Nucifora failed to meet their pre-defined objectives at the World Cup. The IRFU set a semi-final as their goal and they failed to achieve it; injuries, suspension, fine - the cold hard fact is that they didn't meet their target.

So what happens next? Well, they have to be seen to do something about it. Injuries stripped us of key players? So, we need more players, and the best way to that (apparently) is cutting down on foreigners. Or at least, cutting down on good foreigners.

This is exactly what happened after the last world cup failure, btw.

It's a bad idea but I could see where it's coming from.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

A swap of say Luke Marshall/Olding/McCloskey for Jordi Murphy makes complete sense when you consider the strengths and weaknesses of both sides. But I suppose it may not be an easy job to actually get them to move. Can't do it against their will.

Well a swap of Marshall makes sense. A swap of Olding or McCloskey definitely doesn't!

CIARAN_BOYLE

bilston wrote: »

Well a swap of Marshall makes sense. A swap of Olding or McCloskey definitely doesn't!

Luke Marshall for Dominic Ryan?

ulster_Beef

Clegg wrote: »

A swap of say Luke Marshall/Olding/McCloskey for Jordi Murphy makes complete sense.

For SMcC and SO....? NO WAAAAY ha.

Don't even go there.

Scythica

Can't we just get Rory Mc to sign some big check for the Royal Vic to find a way to give ferris a new set of wheels?

Utah_Saint

Scythica wrote: »

Can't we just get Rory Mc to sign some big check for the Royal Vic to find a way to give ferris a new set of wheels?

If only...Ferris is exactly what Ulster need...manic aggression

Clegg

ulster_Beef wrote: »

For SMcC and SO....? NO WAAAAY ha.

Don't even go there.

Not for all, just a straight swap one for one.

Bliston: I think it makes perfect sense tbh. It's swapping quality for quality in positions both teams are desperate for. Anyway Luke Marshall, injury problems aside, would easily be Leinster's best 12 were he to rock up to the RDS.

Utah_Saint

Clegg wrote: »

Not for all, just a straight swap one for one.

Bliston: I think it makes perfect sense tbh. It's swapping quality for quality in positions both teams are desperate for. Anyway Luke Marshall, injury problems aside, would easily be Leinster's best 12 were he to rock up to the RDS.

Marshall looked good at the weekend. Hopefully a sign he is getting back to his best. Rem how good he was when he first broke into the Ireland side! He's ulsters forgotten man...

Clegg

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Marshall looked good at the weekend. Hopefully a sign he is getting back to his best. Rem how good he was when he first broke into the Ireland side! He's ulsters forgotten man...

The first time I saw Marshall was the Aviva Stadium grand opening between a combined Ulster/Leinster v Munster/Connacht. It was a glorified friendly between sides that we basically U20's and A's thrown together and the Leinster/Ulster had markedly better players and it was a complete mismatch in terms of quality on the pitch, But Marshall was head and shoulders above any player on the pitch. Making line breaks for fun and his passing was so smooth. Then he carried that into the Scotland game a year or so later. If he could ever stop picking up concussions a Marshall/Henshaw pairing would work wonders for Ireland.

awec

Leinster can keep Dom Ryan and there's no way I would even consider swapping Olding or Arnold for Jordi Murphy.

Anyway it won't happen. Murphy will stay at Leinster, he plays often enough.

There is no one in the other provinces who has even the slightest chance of moving who can improve us enough to fix our back row issues. We'd just be signing players a bit better than what we have, we need guys who are a lot better and who will be available all year.

bilston

awec wrote: »

Leinster can keep Dom Ryan and there's no way I would even consider swapping Olding or Arnold for Jordi Murphy.

Anyway it won't happen. Murphy will stay at Leinster, he plays often enough.

There is no one in the other provinces who has even the slightest chance of moving who can improve us enough to fix our back row issues. We'd just be signing players a bit better than what we have, we need guys who are a lot better and who will be available all year.

I'd be happy with Vito plus Conan (for example). If we had back row options of....Henderson, Vito, Henry, Reidy, Faloon, Wilson and Conan we would be considerably better off than what we are this year. With Franco, Tuohy, O'Connor and Henderson as second row options, McCall, Warwick and Black at LH and Best and Herring at hooker then you can see that we'd be a TH prop away from having a decent set of forwards.

bilston

FWIW I wouldn't swap Olding for Sean O'Brien never mind Jordi Murphy!

awec

Yea but Conan won't move. We'd be offered guys like Ryan who is nothing special.

case885

Unless a player was under contract then there's no need to make a swap, Leinster would have no say if the player was out of contract for example.
Dom Ryan would surely be an upgrade in squad depth.

bilston

case885 wrote: »

Unless a player was under contract then there's no need to make a swap, Leinster would have no say if the player was out of contract for example.
Dom Ryan would surely be an upgrade in squad depth.

Not as much as Victor Vito!

case885

bilston wrote:

Not as much as Victor Vito!

So its Vito or no one? Im not too convinced that he was blocked, couldn't he be a direct replacement for Williams so it would be within niq rules.

bilston

case885 wrote: »

So its Vito or no one?

Well I've made several posts today saying we need two back rowers so obviously not.

We need Vito and A.N. Other. In that circumstance I'd take Ryan, but if we were getting him instead of Vito because of some diktat (sp?) from Nucifora I'd be mightily unhappy.

Would you rather have Luke Marshall or Ben Smith at Leinster?

former total

case885 wrote: »

So its Vito or no one? Im not too convinced that he was blocked, couldn't he be a direct replacement for Williams so it would be within niq rules.

It's not as simple as that though, IRFU central branch (i.e. Nucifora and Schmidt) get final say over all signings, even if all the NIQ rules are met.

(Stephen Moore would have been within the rules too)

case885

bilston wrote:

We need Vito and A.N. Other. In that circumstance I'd take Ryan, but if we were getting him instead of Vito because of some diktat (sp?) from Nucifora I'd be mightily unhappy.

I agree if its a shoot out between Vito and Ryan then you can feel very aggrieved it was blocked.
What has me thinking is if the IRFU blocked vito because they want an IQ back row to join ye instead what happens if Ryan, Murphy, Conan or whoever don't want to move?

swiwi_

I find this discussion somewhat bemusing. As far as I can tell, based on an unsubstantiated post in the UAFC forum, Victor Vito would have put pen to paper were it not for the dastardly Nucifora. Now that may be correct, but

* Vito is signed with NZRFU through 2016. So barring a dispensation (which the NZRFU do sometimes give) he wouldn't be available until 2017 at the earliest...
* ...which would mean giving up on the Lions tour. Piutau traded money for that chance, maybe Vito would too, but I'm not sure. He spurned a big offer from Stade Français AFAIK.
* Not one mainstream NZ media website, nor any NZ equivalents of boards.ie have made mention of Vito considering a move. The UAFC may be well-informed...
* ...Or he/she may well not.

Vito is 28 from memory, so he maybe happy to take a £1,000,000 offer (or at least very substantial offer) from Ulster to move, but there seems a lot of conjecture and very little fact.

bilston

swiwi_ wrote: »

I find this discussion somewhat bemusing. As far as I can tell, based on an unsubstantiated post in the UAFC forum, Victor Vito would have put pen to paper were it not for the dastardly Nucifora. Now that may be correct, but

* Vito is signed with NZRFU through 2016. So barring a dispensation (which the NZRFU do sometimes give) he wouldn't be available until 2017 at the earliest...
* ...which would mean giving up on the Lions tour. Piutau traded money for that chance, maybe Vito would too, but I'm not sure. He spurned a big offer from Stade Français AFAIK.
* Not one mainstream NZ media website, nor any NZ equivalents of boards.ie have made mention of Vito considering a move. The UAFC may be well-informed...
* ...Or he/she may well not.

Vito is 28 from memory, so he maybe happy to take a £1,000,000 offer (or at least very substantial offer) from Ulster to move, but there seems a lot of conjecture and very little fact.

Well it's certainly true that it is just a rumour.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Midi Olympique are linking Vito with a move to La Rochelle.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Tuohy out for 2 months. Nelson out for the whole season. Henderson has significant hamstring tear, needs to be assessed by a surgeon and Cave is out for at least 2 games.

Journeyman_1

That sounds like Ulsters season is basically over. I don't think the quality to cover tuohy and Henderson is there. It's a shame because Ulster keep having seasons disrupted by injury or other circumstances outside of their control.

former total

No Six Nations for Henderson or Tuohy by the sounds of it. Ireland looking light in the second row...

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Tuohy out for 2 months. Nelson out for the whole season. Henderson has significant hamstring tear, needs to be assessed by a surgeon and Cave is out for at least 2 games.

Henderson injury is very similar as POC by sounds of it so that could be his season done too

Sinbad_NI

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

That sounds like Ulsters season is basically over. I don't think the quality to cover tuohy and Henderson is there. It's a shame because Ulster keep having seasons disrupted by injury or other circumstances outside of their control.

Same every year... simple reason is the drop off in quality of the pack after the starting lineup is so steep.
All teams suffer injuries, we just have zero decent backup.

awec

case885 wrote: »

Dom Ryan would surely be an upgrade in squad depth.

Not by much!

Unless he was very cheap and we were allowed and able to make further signings i would steer clear.

bilston

Think I posted a possible XV the other day for Toulouse but now we have a bit more knowledge on availability so here goes.

15 Louis Ludik
14 Andrew Trimble
13 Luke Marshall
12 Stuart McCloskey
11 Craig Gilroy
10 Paddy Jackson
9 Ruan Pienaar
1 Kyle McCall
2 Rory Best
3 Ricky Lutton
4 Alan O'Connor
5 Franco Van Der Merwe
6 Roger Wilson
7 Chris Henry
8 Nick Williams

16 Rob Herring, 17 Andrew Warwick, 18 Wiebhan Herbst, 19 Robbie Diack, 20 Sean Reidy, 21 Paul Marshall, 22 Ian Humprhreys, 23 Rory Scholes

Scholes showed up well last week but seems to make the same defensive errors that Gilroy does, I suppose Ludik could go to 13 with Gilroy at 15 and Scholes on the wing, but without Henderson and Tuohy, McCloskey is pretty much our only go forward along with Williams.

Back row wise, I'd go with Roger at 6, at least he gets to the gain line, Diack gets knocked back but fecking backs. I'd take Diack and Reidy over Stevenson on the bench because we need cover at 7 and Diack can cover 6, 8 and the second row (at least in theory).

These injuries are fairly disastrous.

Players to come back.

Darren Cave (Late December/Early January)
Stuart Olding (January)
Dan Tuohy (February)
Tommy Bowe (February/March)
Peter Nelson (2016/17)
Iain Henderson (unspecified)
Jared Payne (unspecified)

Have I forgotten anyone? Sam Arnold may be injured and going even deeper into the squad I think Jacob Stockdale has been out for most of the season. But either way the list above are all first choice players. That's a fairly catastrophic list!

vienne86

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Tuohy out for 2 months. Nelson out for the whole season. Henderson has significant hamstring tear, needs to be assessed by a surgeon and Cave is out for at least 2 games.

Terrible news about Tuohy, Nelson and Henderson in particular. Serious implications for Ireland with POC gone and POM with a serious injury.

awec

awec wrote: »

Not by much!

Unless he was very cheap and we were allowed and able to make further signings i would steer clear.

cmon now awec.

List out the backrow options at Ulster.

Where does he fit in?