Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

bilston

.ak wrote: »

Pienaar was motm for me, then mcloskey, then Marshall.

Pienaar was imperious, so calm and collected, couple of errors aside. But he just kept the whole thing moving. His communication is so, so good. For that cross field kick he had no problem talking to his outside backs whilst the ball was being squeezed at on the line. Real cool head there. And then to pull it out, turn his back to the defenders and kick it off his left was nothing short of amazing. Everyone expected it to go to the 10 first there.

Yeah watching the game I thought Marshall was the best performer but thinking back and watching some of the highlights afterwards it was hard to look past Ruan.

By the way Alan O'Connor was really good tonight. I have no idea why he hasn't featured for so long but I'm glad he is back in the squad.

wp_rathead

Myself and some Connacht fans went from delight too seeing ye're brilliant result to absolute dread of having to face ye in 2 weeks

mfceiling

Need to make sure we follow it up with another good performance. Too many decent wins and then go out the following week and look clueless. Hope it's not a case of papering over the cracks.

OldRio

What a result. Missed the first half (local school children holding a carol concert when rugby is on the TV. Selfishness beyond belief)
Congrats to Ulster. Two big weeks coming up.

The Connacht match should be a cracker.

bilston

Question, did Kyle McCall's first start coincide with Les Kiss's first game? I.e. Dragons away?

Also wasn't it under Kiss last year that O'Connor got his games?

Like in all seriousness what in the name of all that is sweet and holy were Doak and particularly the forwards coach Clarke thinking in not having these guys in the squad earlier.

McCall I can sort of forgive as he was trying his hand at hooker for a bit but there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for not having Alan O'Connor involved much much sooner, sure he may have had injuries but he has been playing in the UBL all season FFS!

Those two were arguably the most satisfying performers last night as it prves we do have young talent in the pack. Who knows who else there is in the A team. People talk about a THP called James Simpson (not seen him myself), guys like him will be encouraged by the new culture at Ulster were guys will get their chance if merited.

By the way I 100% rescind my offer of swapping Luke Marshall for Jordi Murphy! Luke was terrific. He has wonderful hands, makes his tackles, gives us another kicking option and carries well. He was back to his best last night and it was great to see. Him and Paddy have a great understanding as well.

Sinbad_NI

Really enjoyed that.
Fair play to the pack as well as the backs. They really stood up last night.

Journeyman_1

Watched the highlights last night, delighted with the result and performance!

jacothelad

bilston wrote: »

Question, did Kyle McCall's first start coincide with Les Kiss's first game? I.e. Dragons away?

Also wasn't it under Kiss last year that O'Connor got his games?

Like in all seriousness what in the name of all that is sweet and holy were Doak and particularly the forwards coach Clarke thinking in not having these guys in the squad earlier.

McCall I can sort of forgive as he was trying his hand at hooker for a bit but there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for not having Alan O'Connor involved much much sooner, sure he may have had injuries but he has been playing in the UBL all season FFS!

Those two were arguably the most satisfying performers last night as it prves we do have young talent in the pack. Who knows who else there is in the A team. People talk about a THP called James Simpson (not seen him myself), guys like him will be encouraged by the new culture at Ulster were guys will get their chance if merited.

By the way I 100% rescind my offer of swapping Luke Marshall for Jordi Murphy! Luke was terrific. He has wonderful hands, makes his tackles, gives us another kicking option and carries well. He was back to his best last night and it was great to see. Him and Paddy have a great understanding as well.

All of this X100

bilston

jacothelad wrote: »

All of this X100

You know what though Jaco. I'm now left wondering what other players have been neglected over the last 12 months, amd remember Clarke was in charge of the Academy before that. I think you talk about Chris Taylor a lot, I wouldn't be surprised if there are others.

jacothelad

bilston wrote: »

You know what though Jaco. I'm now left wondering what other players have been neglected over the last 12 months, amd remember Clarke was in charge of the Academy before that. I think you talk about Chris Taylor a lot, I wouldn't be surprised if there are others.

Yes. We've no idea if Taylor would have made it but at U20 level he was very, very good. The fact that he never even got a sniff at an academy place is appalling. There are others also but Simpson is the most obvious current tight head who looks more than useful. he is certainly better than Bronson Ross who trains as a professional while Simpson has a day job. So there are two tight head props Ulster have simply ignored.

On another, yet related matter, Carrick under 18s beat Banbridge 59 - 0 at the end of the season in a cup final. When the under age team was announced, 9 of the Banbridge team was in it. One Carrick player was an unused sub. There are two guys who played for that Carrick team who one of their coaches - a guy who has played and coached AIL 1 and is part of the Ulster coaching schools team- says are better than anything he has seen for many, many years and they get absolutely no support or encouragement from Ulster Rugby. They didn't go to one of the 'Big' schools.

mfceiling

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes. We've no idea if Taylor would have made it but at U20 level he was very, very good. The fact that he never even got a sniff at an academy place is appalling. There are others also but Simpson is the most obvious current tight head who looks more than useful. he is certainly better than Bronson Ross who trains as a professional while Simpson has a day job. So there are two tight head props Ulster have simply ignored.

On another, yet related matter, Carrick under 18s beat Banbridge 59 - 0 at the end of the season in a cup final. When the under age team was announced, 9 of the Banbridge team was in it. One Carrick player was an unused sub. There are two guys who played for that Carrick team who one of their coaches - a guy who has played and coached AIL 1 and is part of the Ulster coaching schools team- says are better than anything he has seen for many, many years and they get absolutely no support or encouragement from Ulster Rugby. They didn't go to one of the 'Big' schools.

It's a joke alright. You have to wonder does anyone in ulster rugby go to these games or actually follow up on recommendations from club coaches.
AOC had a great game last night..showed great hands in one or two phases yet if tuohy wasn't injured he'd probably be togging out today in the AIL.

jacothelad

mfceiling wrote: »

It's a joke alright. You have to wonder does anyone in ulster rugby go to these games or actually follow up on recommendations from club coaches.
AOC had a great game last night..showed great hands in one or two phases yet if tuohy wasn't injured he'd probably be togging out today in the AIL.

I know of one under age get together at which one of the 'top' Ulster coaching team was supposed to oversee. He arrived, spent 15 minutes on his mobile and then said. "There's nobody here of any use,' and left.

On another occasion, a very highly regarded and mega talented young player from a one parent family in the Antrim area was asked to go to Dungannon for a training session. He had no way to get there - no money for transport and no family car. When one of his club coaches heard about his dilemma, he drove him there but arrived a few minutes late. The response was that he had obviously no interest and was therefore 'no use.' This was a young man from an impoverished family situation being peed on from a great height by a middle class ar5ehole whose idea of poverty is only owning one Porsche.

blindsider

Delighted for Ulster and LK.

Fantastic performance last night and the game was v. entertaining as a bonus.

McCloskey is a shoo-in for the 6N squad, and deservedly so.

CMOTDibbler

jacothelad wrote: »

I know of one under age get together at which one of the 'top' Ulster coaching team was supposed to oversee. He arrived, spent 15 minutes on his mobile and then said. "There's nobody here of any use,' and left.

On another occasion, a very highly regarded and mega talented young player from a one parent family in the Antrim area was asked to go to Dungannon for a training session. He had no way to get there - no money for transport and no family car. When one of his club coaches heard about his dilemma, he drove him there but arrived a few minutes late. The response was that he had obviously no interest and was therefore 'no use.' This was a young man from an impoverished family situation being peed on from a great height by a middle class ar5ehole whose idea of poverty is only owning one Porsche.

That's disgraceful. I would never have thought that this sort of thing still went on.

Les Kiss won't put up with that sh1t.

phog

Terrific result last night, I thought Ulster might win but never dreamed they'd get a BP win and hold Toulouse to zero.

Still a bit of a road to travel but that win might be just what was needed

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Les Kiss won't put up with that sh1t.

The first interview he gave when he arrived at Ulster a few weeks ago sounded very much like he thought it's a bit of a "too many cooks" situation. He didn't say anything specific so it may just be me reading it wrong but it did sound very much like there are a lot of people in charge doing their own thing with no common aims or purpose.

bilston

jacothelad wrote: »

I know of one under age get together at which one of the 'top' Ulster coaching team was supposed to oversee. He arrived, spent 15 minutes on his mobile and then said. "There's nobody here of any use,' and left.

On another occasion, a very highly regarded and mega talented young player from a one parent family in the Antrim area was asked to go to Dungannon for a training session. He had no way to get there - no money for transport and no family car. When one of his club coaches heard about his dilemma, he drove him there but arrived a few minutes late. The response was that he had obviously no interest and was therefore 'no use.' This was a young man from an impoverished family situation being peed on from a great height by a middle class ar5ehole whose idea of poverty is only owning one Porsche.

Well that's an absolute disgrace.

postitnote

Great win for Ulster last night. Great to see a fit and firing back line too. I sincerely hope it isn't a case of papering over the cracks as was suggested above. Still plenty to improve on, there were a few silly passes behind players, but onwards and upwards!

Next weekend will obviously be a massive test, but at least now I'm looking forward to it.

Have we got our 10,12,13 nailed on? Or is it too early to say?

The Lost Sheep

bilston wrote: »

Well that's an absolute disgrace.

It is and there is plenty examples of similar cases in all the provinces...

bilston

For all the understandable doom and gloom before last night it is strange to think that if we win in Toulouse next week then all things being equal we probably should make the quarter finals. If we win 3 of our last 4 games we will have at least 17 points which I think got Saracens through last year, add a couple of bonus points and we would probably be home and hosed. Obviously that's a way off but right now it's all on next week. Toulouse play Toulon on the 27th apparently so it will interesting to see their state of mind.

Oh and I was thinking there is a tough conundrum coming up for Les. Over the next six weeks we have six huge games....

Toulouse (a)
Connacht (a)
Munster (h)
Oyonnax (a)
Saracens (a)
Oyonnax (h)

Realistically given the injuries with only Darren Cave likely to return in this forthcoming period we are going to have put out the same team and 23 each week. So the question is do we do what we do every year at Christmas and throw the Ravens in for a game or do we mix and match a bit for the two Inter Pros?

shuffol

The Christmas games are both ones that Ulster should fancy their chances winning so hard to justify putting the Ravens out for one of them. It's not like a trip to TP or RDS where you know your unlikely to get a result with a full side. Ulster actually have the Christmas schedule they've been crying out for in recent seasons.

I know it was a fantastic result for Ulster Friday night but I wouldn't get much more hopeful about qualifying than previously. Ulster are still 3 points short of where they would've expected to be at this stage. A result in Toulouse will be a huge ask given their quality and how they'll have been embarrassed by Fridays scoreline.

bilston

shuffol wrote: »

The Christmas games are both ones that Ulster should fancy their chances winning so hard to justify putting the Ravens out for one of them. It's not like a trip to TP or RDS where you know your unlikely to get a result with a full side. Ulster actually have the Christmas schedule they've been crying out for in recent seasons.

I know it was a fantastic result for Ulster Friday night but I wouldn't get much more hopeful about qualifying than previously. Ulster are still 3 points short of where they would've expected to be at this stage. A result in Toulouse will be a huge ask given their quality and how they'll have been embarrassed by Fridays scoreline.

Our European hopes will be dictated by what happens next week. Win in Toulouse we should finish with at least 17 points as we should beat Oyannax home and and away. Lose in Toulouse and it's a different ball game.

Digifriendly

Saracens will be near to achieving qualification by the time they meet us, probably on 19 points. They are the form team in Europe at present so to take even a losing BP from them would be an achievement but it might be enough along with 2 wins over Oyannax to take us through if we can win in Toulouse.

thomond2006

Last season the three second placed qualifiers finished with 17/18/19 points. 10 points versus Oyonnax is very achievable (they are effectively an 'Italian team') and then one more win should be enough.

CatFromHue

Toulouse having no bps and only 4 tries from 3 games is a big thing in Ulster's favour.

Ardillaun

Superb and heartening play by Ulster but...there seem to have been some conspicuously bad French performances on the road in this competition over the years. Is that impression backed up by the stats?

bilston

To be fair Toulouse started well, they had all the ball and territory in the first 10 minutes. Ulster weathered the storm and scored points and it was those points that forced the Toulouse heads to drop. Toulouse were poor but I think a good of bit that was down to Ulster.

It would be interesting to see though if French teams were statistically worse on the roads than everyone else or if it's just a perception. In reality most teams lose away from home!

I would love to see Luke Marshall get back into top form. Too good a player to become a forgotten man imo.

Up to the players to give their coaches a headache, but would be very interested if all of Olding, McCloskey, Cave, Payne and Marshall were demanding games in the centre with their performances.

Ulster need to build on this, back it up again, and again, and again. No one-offs.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Would be great to see a swell in Ulster/Connacht players in the next Irish camp. The most impressive players, so far, this season have been in those two provinces. It may well be World Cup hangover but the only Irish player that's stood out for me at Leinster/Munster has been Josh Van der Flier.

Most of the Ulster backs deserve a call up. I'd happily go with Jackson, McCloskey, Trimble and Gilroy in a starting 15.

Scythica

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Would be great to see a swell in Ulster/Connacht players in the next Irish camp. The most impressive players, so far, this season have been in those two provinces. It may well be World Cup hangover but the only Irish player that's stood out for me at Leinster/Munster has been Josh Van der Flier.

Most of the Ulster backs deserve a call up. I'd happily go with Jackson, McCloskey, Trimble and Gilroy in a starting 15.

Do you think McCloskey might start working on his place kicking more as an extra arrow to his quiver for Ireland?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Scythica wrote: »

Do you think McCloskey might start working on his place kicking more as an extra arrow to his quiver for Ireland?

When he was kicking at the start of the season he was very hit and miss. He'd nail an impossible conversion then miss a simple penalty. I'm not sure he'd ever be good enough to make his kicking something that would stand in his favour for selection over someone else. That said... It couldn't hurt. We rely a silly amount on our 10's for kicking. Unless Madigan happens to be on at 12 or 15 at the same time there's nobody else to take kicks if Sexton/Jackson are having an off day.

former total

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Would be great to see a swell in Ulster/Connacht players in the next Irish camp. The most impressive players, so far, this season have been in those two provinces. It may well be World Cup hangover but the only Irish player that's stood out for me at Leinster/Munster has been Josh Van der Flier.

Most of the Ulster backs deserve a call up. I'd happily go with Jackson, McCloskey, Trimble and Gilroy in a starting 15.

Hmmm. Maybe there will be more Connacht players in camp, but in terms of wholesale changes to the actual 15/23, I think people are going to very disappointed. I'd say Henshaw and possibly Marmion will be the only Connacht players in the 23 lining out against Wales on the opening day (barring further injuries).

As for Ulster? Well, up to 7.45 on Friday they had been pretty abysmal. They were great on Friday but they need to back that up but they have certainly been no better than Leinster/Munster.

I'd be surprised if Gilroy gets into the XV to be honest, Trimble is definitely going to be in the mix, McCloskey's chances probably depend on Payne not coming back in time.

awec

Scythica wrote: »

Do you think McCloskey might start working on his place kicking more as an extra arrow to his quiver for Ireland?

He needs to focus on making fewer line breaks before he can play for Ireland.

And Gilroy hasn't scored a try in over a month which will certainly help his case for international selection.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

Hmmm. Maybe there will be more Connacht players in camp, but in terms of wholesale changes to the actual 15/23, I think people are going to very disappointed. I'd say Henshaw and possibly Marmion will be the only Connacht players in the 23 lining out against Wales on the opening day (barring further injuries).

As for Ulster? Well, up to 7.45 on Friday they had been pretty abysmal. They were great on Friday but they need to back that up but they have certainly been no better than Leinster/Munster.

I'd be surprised if Gilroy gets into the XV to be honest, Trimble is definitely going to be in the mix, McCloskey's chances probably depend on Payne not coming back in time.

Oh I know it's unlikely we'll see any new faces come the opening weekend of the 6 Nations that's why I said I'd love to see them in the training camps. I think there's a few Connacht players that at least deserve a place in the wider squad.
Ulster as a team have been fairly inconsistent this season but even in that there have been a number of players have managed to stand out. I think McCloskey at the very least should be given serous consideration for a place in the 23. With Payne out and Henshaw missing a few weeks now too it's a real possibility. Or it should be. Chances are Schmidt will stick with Fitz and Earls though

bilston

I don't see Gilroy in the Ireland squad at the minute.

Ulster's reps in the broader squad will be Best, Henry, Jackson, Cave and Trimble. Payne will be there if he is fit. At this stage I'd be very surprised if McCloskey didn't get a call up and if he continues his form from Friday for the next few weeks Luke Marshall will have a good shout as well.

There are a few candidates for the centre though. While Leinster struggled yesterday Fitzgerald, along with Ruddock IMO, was a rare shining light. Henshaw should be back for the 6Ns as well so even if Payne is injured I could see Schmidt going with Henshaw and Fitzgerald. But I have to say at the start of the season I felt that as good as McCloskey was he was prone to the odd silly mistake, over the last 3 weeks he has really upped his game. He may be hard to leave out at this rate.

Scythica

I've never really seen McCloskey anywhere else but 12, maybe he could be put on a wing at a push but given the relative depth we have in ultility backs you'd think he has to go for 12 or bust

Bazzo

Scythica wrote: »

I've never really seen McCloskey anywhere else but 12, maybe he could be put on a wing at a push but given the relative depth we have in ultility backs you'd think he has to go for 12 or bust

Henshaw doesn't have to play at 12. I don't think he's ever played at 12 for Connacht, just 13 and 15.

awec

If Payne comes back for Ireland I'd put him at 15 ahead of RK.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

awec wrote: »

If Payne comes back for Ireland I'd put him at 15 ahead of RK.

Or even Henshaw could play at 15 although a Henshaw/McCloskey partnership in the centre would be very exciting to see.

Someone else mentioned Cave being one of the guaranteed Ulster names but I don't see the point of him taking a place in the squad when Schmidt clearly doesn't see him as anything more than a back up back up to the back ups. I have nothing against Cave but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if McCloskey's inclusion in the squad came at Cave's expense.

CatFromHue

When is Payne due back? Or is it still a mystery?

awec

Honestly it seems to be a bit of a waste of time for Cave to go to Ireland camps. We don't play 13s at 13, so why bother calling him up.

Feel a bit sorry for him because he definitely hasn't been given as many opportunities as other players to try make his case but at this stage he may as well concentrate on Ulster.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

awec wrote: »

Honestly it seems to be a bit of a waste of time for Cave to go to Ireland camps. We don't play 13s at 13, so why bother calling him up.

Feel a bit sorry for him because he definitely hasn't been given as many opportunities as other players to try make his case but at this stage he may as well concentrate on Ulster.

The selections at the World Cup when faced with injuries said it all really. Earls was useless at 13, I don't think that's an exaggeration, and yet he still got the nod. Cave got to play in the "easy" games that aren't really much use for assessing what someone is capable of. He'd be crucified if he refused a call up, if he's even allowed to do that, but it would be completely understandable.

Bazzo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The selections at the World Cup when faced with injuries said it all really. Earls was useless at 13, I don't think that's an exaggeration, and yet he still got the nod. Cave got to play in the "easy" games that aren't really much use for assessing what someone is capable of. He'd be crucified if he refused a call up, if he's even allowed to do that, but it would be completely understandable.

Unless I'm mistaken they can't refuse a call up because they're contracted to the irfu

bilston

Scythica wrote: »

I've never really seen McCloskey anywhere else but 12, maybe he could be put on a wing at a push but given the relative depth we have in ultility backs you'd think he has to go for 12 or bust

Yeah, but I'd be thinking McCloskey at 12 and Henshaw at 13.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bilston wrote: »

Yeah, but I'd be thinking McCloskey at 12 and Henshaw at 13.

I think the point was that other options for 12 can play somewhere else too making them more appealing than McCloskey in terms of overall squad selection. He needs to make himself the only possible option at 12 if he wants to establish himself in the Irish squad.

Bazzo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I think the point was that other options for 12 can play somewhere else too making them more appealing than McCloskey in terms of overall squad selection. He needs to make himself the only possible option at 12 if he wants to establish himself in the Irish squad.

I don't think versatility is all it's cracked up to be. It's handy if a player CAN cover a few positions in a pinch but I wouldn't be using it as a factor to select one player over another unless the difference between them was marginal or there was a massive lack of cover available in the squad.

All the chopping and changing and switching around of positions can't be good overall, getting someone settled in to a single position and letting them improve their skillset to suit it seems like a much better way to go about things. Look how players like Madigan have suffered from their versatility.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Bazzo wrote: »

I don't think versatility is all it's cracked up to be. It's handy if a player CAN cover a few positions in a pinch but I wouldn't be using it as a factor to select one player over another unless the difference between them was marginal or there was a massive lack of cover available in the squad.

All the chopping and changing and switching around of positions can't be good overall, getting someone settled in to a single position and letting them improve their skillset to suit it seems like a much better way to go about things. Look how players like Madigan have suffered from their versatility.

I agree completley but it seems fairly clear that Schmidt values versatility in his players. Of course it could be that nobody has been so outstanding in any one position that they pick themselves so he has to look at other factors to make his selections.

Look at Madigan practically owning that bench spot over Jackson. Is Madigan a better 10 than Jackson? No. But he can move into a number of other positions if necessary. I'd go so far as to say the same applies to Fitzgerald and Earls in the recent WC squad.

blackdog1

awec wrote: »

If Payne comes back for Ireland I'd put him at 15 ahead of RK.

I'd prefer Payne at 13 and henshaw full back myself. Neither henshaw or mccloskey are good distributors . Trimble and fitz on the wing.

Bazzo

blackdog1 wrote: »

I'd prefer Payne at 13 and henshaw full back myself. Neither henshaw or mccloskey are good distributors . Trimble and fitz on the wing.

Henshaw isn't a good distributor? Maybe when he's been playing 12 for Ireland he takes it into contact fairly often but if you watch any of his games for Connacht you'll see he's more than capabale of distributing the ball.

Edit: Just realised all this is going on in the Ulster thread... maybe better suited to the Ireland one...

blackdog1

Bazzo wrote: »

Henshaw isn't a good distributor? Maybe when he's been playing 12 for Ireland he takes it into contact fairly often but if you watch any of his games for Connacht you'll see he's more than capabale of distributing the ball.

Not in the same league as Payne. And passing under pressure is another thing all together. He's very young so he will get a lot better. I just think with the space at full back it allows him more room so he can maximize his offload skills better in contact.