Equality of marriage and love

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Yes, but the question is; will individual civil registrars in the registry office in Ireland be allowed to exempt themselves? Interesting question.

I think that's probably up to the HSE. The bottom line is that same-sex couples have the same right to marry as opposite-sex couples, and they should not be exposed to additional drama, expense, delay, confusion or grandstanding because they are same-sex couples. If the HSE arranges matters so that they get the services they are entitled to, it is no skin off anyone's nose if, internally, the HSE arranges matters so that some officers rather than other officers handle these cases. They don't need every officer to handle same-sex marriages; just enough of them to provide same-sex couples with the service they are entitled to.

Having said that, I have no reason to think that the HSE will try to accommodate officers who have an issue with doing this work. Obviously, life is easier for them if all officers understand that they are expected to handle whatever cases come across their desks.

Daith

Though the chances of Ronan Mullen or Mattie getting an amendment added to the Marriage Bill is probably 0% so doubt anyone needs to worry.

robindch

Scotland's having none of tha':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwLaDzKFiBY

StonyIron

robindch wrote: »

Scotland's having none of tha':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwLaDzKFiBY

What language is he speaking?!! I can't hear any words at all. Could just be the megaphone distortion.

robindch

In the House of Lords, the former Bishop of Oxford suggests that religion has fuelled hostility to gay people.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/09/18/former-bishop-of-oxford-religion-has-fuelled-hostility-to-gay-people/

Richard Harris wrote:

There is no avoiding the fact that hostility to same-sex relationships is shaped and fuelled by the teaching of most religions. We cannot sensibly address this challenge without facing the uncomfortable truth head-on. [...] Church leaders and institutions in those countries where LGBTI people are criminalised have to be urged to make a distinction between teaching which may be applicable for their own members in their private lives and the basic rights and dignity that need to be accorded to everyone in their society, whatever their religion or belief. Of course, working through secular channels to challenge the laws in those countries is fundamental. But behind those laws is [...] a “toxic” culture. That toxic culture is, sadly, intertwined with religion.

recedite

StonyIron wrote: »

What language is he speaking?!! I can't hear any words at all. Could just be the megaphone distortion.

Its a dialect called Scottish Hate. Very few people ken it.

robindch

Vatican says that trans people can't be godparents, but that this does it doesn't want people to think of this as discrimination (cleverly without saying whether or not the church believes it is discrimination).

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/09/transsexual-people-cannot-be-godparents-says-vatican/

Church And State wrote:

The Vatican has told a Spanish bishop that transsexuals cannot be godparents after he asked for a formal answer on the matter, the cleric in the diocese of Cadiz and Ceuta said. Bishop Rafael Zornoza Boy said the Vatican’s doctrinal arm replied that transsexuals “publicly show an attitude contrary to the moral requirement to resolve one’s sexual identity problem according to the truth of one’s sex”.

In a statement on his diocese’s website, Zornoza Boy said: “Pope Francis has effectively said on several occasions, in line with church teaching, that this behaviour is against man’s nature.” The church “wants to help everyone in their own situation with a compassionate heart, but without denying the truth it preaches,” the bishop added.

Zornoza Boy said he made the query to the congregation for the doctrine of the faith because of confusion among the faithful, and the publicity given to the complicated subject. An Italian conservative Catholic blog, Rorate Caeli, said the issue was first raised by a transsexual, born a woman, who had asked to be godfather to his nephew.

In its response to Zornoza Boy, the Vatican said its stance on transsexual godparents “should not be seen as discrimination”.

oscarBravo

http://www.thejournal.ie/legal-challenge-same-sex-2344373-Sep2015/?utm_source=facebook_short

I feel a "Frozen" song coming on.

Turtwig

You have to admire the persistence. I wonder if this was inspired by the current cock-up regarding driving under influence prosecutions? Maybe there's a loophole regarding the state proceeding without court clearance that he can exploit?

Either way this guy's resolve is somewhat impressive.

robindch

Turtwig wrote: »

[...] this guy's resolve is somewhat impressive.

It remains to be seen whether his pockets are as deep as his wisdom.

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

It remains to be seen whether his pockets are as deep as his wisdom.

Like the guy from kilkenny, you can bet it's not his money being used....they are both pawns for bigger organisations no doubt

Daith

Turtwig wrote: »

You have to admire the persistence. I wonder if this was inspired by the current cock-up regarding driving under influence prosecutions? Maybe there's a loophole regarding the state proceeding without court clearance that he can exploit?

I doubt it. They didn't ask for the stay of issuing the cert not to be lifted. The bill could have been signed anytime after that.

The SC did state that there could have been an issue if they found merit in their cases but they didn't. It was more of a hypothetical "what-if".

I'm fairly certain that results of the marriage referendum or the referendum process can no longer be challenged.

There may be some merit in only issuing certs after all possible court proceedings were finished though.

jobbridge4life

Turtwig wrote: »

You have to admire the persistence. I wonder if this was inspired by the current cock-up regarding driving under influence prosecutions? Maybe there's a loophole regarding the state proceeding without court clearance that he can exploit?

Either way this guy's resolve is somewhat impressive.

No... no I really don't and it isn't.

The Black Oil

I'm surprised our institute friends didn't flex their keywords over the Kim Davis story.

The Randy Riverbeast

The Black Oil wrote: »

I'm surprised our institute friends didn't flex their keywords over the Kim Davis story.

That's done now. They tend to move on when the lost. Now they moved on to abortion. I look forward to seeing their stance so I know the opposite is the correct one.

Nodin

Ionanist on Today with sean O'Rourke earlier. He was big on the Gospel of Jesus, not so much so on the notion of posters saying "gay families" are normal and equal to "heterosexual families" in schools.

robindch

Obama invites a special couple to the White House during Frank's visit to the USA. Let's hope something positive comes of it.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150922_Margie_Winters_and_her_wife_to_be_at_White_House_for_Pope_Francis__arrival.html

Philly.com wrote:

Margie Winters and her wife, Andrea Vettori, have been hoping for months to speak with Pope Francis during his visit to America. On Wednesday, the couple will take a big step toward that goal in a high-profile venue. Winters, who was fired from Waldron Mercy Academy in Merion in late June after two parents of students complained about her same-sex marriage, has been invited with Vettori to the White House for Wednesday's arrival ceremony for the bishop of Rome and leader of their faith.

Human Rights Campaign, which calls itself the nation's largest LGBT civil rights organization, confirmed Monday that it had secured tickets from the White House for Winters and Vettori to attend the event, which is not open to the public. The group on Monday featured Winters and Vettori on its website in a video, telling the story of their marriage, Winters' firing, and Vettori's letter to the pope pleading for his intervention. The couple, already planning on attending a full week of papal events in Washington and Philadelphia, were giddy with the news Monday night.

"Obviously we won't be talking to the pope, but we will be in the vicinity," Winters said of Wednesday's White House event. "But symbolically, it's a great step forward." Winters and Vettori said the invitation left them feeling humbled and exhilarated. "We continue to say it's the spirit at work," Winters said. "It's the people who have been supporting us, moving this issue forward and in front of people."

They continue to hope for an audience with Francis to discuss the lives and roles of the LGBT faithful in the church. The Human Rights Campaign video featured Vettori reading the letter she wrote in July to the pope. She choked up while asking Francis "to intervene on our behalf and countless other faithful Catholics so that we may not be condemned to live a life exiled from a church we so love and want to serve." Winters, in the video, said, "We're asking the bishop to stop firing people for LGBT issues."

Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, through a spokesman, has repeatedly asserted that the Archdiocese of Philadelphia played no role in Winters' firing. Waldron Mercy is sponsored by the Sisters of Mercy. By church law, the school is under the authority of the local bishop. Chaput in July issued a statement praising school officials for their "character and common sense" in firing Winters. Winters, hired by Waldron Mercy in 2007 as director of religious education, said she told the principal at that time that she was in a same-sex marriage.

That did not present a problem until this year, Winters said, when one parent complained to the school's board of directors and another complained directly to the archdiocese. The White House did not respond to a request for confirmation and comment on the invitation. Winters' firing drew national attention, with an outpouring of support and some anti-LGBT vitriol. The school hosted a series of private meetings with parents to discuss the controversy before the start of the new school year.

Parents of students attending Catholic schools in the archdiocese were required this month to sign a "memorandum of understanding" that on any question of religious principles and policies, "the final determination rests with the archbishop." A spokesman for the archdiocese said the memorandum had nothing to do with the controversy at Waldron Mercy.

Cabaal

I got to hand it to Obama, he's approached the marriage equality issue pretty well. No doubt he's taken alot of flack for it but atleast its meant the white house has dealt properly with the issue.

In relation to the pope, the pope might saw a few words on the issue at some stage but they'll just be a PR thing and no Vatican or church policy will change on the matter. Like everything else the smiley PR pope has said, the Vatican will turn around and say "well the pope actually meant this instead..."

seamus

Obama knows how to flow with the times, especially in his second term. Rather than stick rigidly to partisan lines, he runs with popular public sentiment and fights for what he thinks the people want, not what the parties want. SSM is one of the more obvious examples, having originally come out in opposition and then changed his mind when he realised that the majority public opinion had swung the other way.

In this case he recognises that the Vatican's alignment on moral issues is way out of kilter, and people are dying for pope Frankie to reform the church. So bringing same-sex marriage into the visit is Obama doing what people want to see.

It's why I find the whole "Obama is a Muslim" conspiracy stuff hilarious. I'm pretty sure that he's atheist, or at least very firmly in the "I don't give two fncks about religion" camp. But with neither being very popular viewpoints, he recognised that aligning himself with the protestant church (and black churches in particular) was a very easy way to ensure that the religion issue would never become a blocker in getting to the top.

Cabaal

This morning.

Leinster House, Kildare Street, Dublin

Members of Marriage Equality Ireland before entering the Dáil gallery to witness the Marriage Bill 2015 being introduced by the Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald..

Oh man, this must make so many bigoted people so so angry

Daith

Cabaal wrote: »

Oh man, this must make so many bigoted people so so angry

Quinn is already giving out about schools daring to teach kids about LGBT people and families.

Cabaal

Daith wrote: »

Quinn is already giving out about schools daring to teach kids about LGBT people and families.

Sigh,
How dare they even attempt to teach children about stuff thats perfectly legal and that they'll see and hear about during their life!

Penn

Cabaal wrote: »

Sigh,
How dare they even attempt to teach children about stuff thats perfectly legal and that they'll see and hear about during their life!

Eh, because being misinformed makes it easier for them to become bigots, and that's removing their choice. Plus, studies and other buzzwords!

Daith

Penn wrote: »

Eh, because being misinformed makes it easier for them to become bigots, and that's removing their choice. Plus, studies and other buzzwords!

and if you only teach children that families are a married man and women they'll vote No in any marriage referendum or something.

Cabaal

Daith wrote: »

and if you only teach children that families are a married man and women they'll vote No in any marriage referendum or something.

We all know a family is a man, women, two children (boy and girl) and they live in a house with a white picket fence. The women does all the cooking and the man smokes a pipe and works during the day.

There is no other versions of this,

robindch

seamus wrote: »

Obama knows how to flow with the times, especially in his second term. Rather than stick rigidly to partisan lines, he runs with popular public sentiment and fights for what he thinks the people want, not what the parties want.

That's more of a "legacy" thing than a "what people want thing". The intention of the US constitution's restriction on two-term presidents is that the electorate will get an energetic president in his/her first term and one taking a long view in any second term - it works as a good restraint on presidential power, at least in countries where presidential legacies and smooth transitions of power are believed important. Russia, on the other hand, suffers from the opposite just now - a president who ignored the (poorly-worded) two-term limit in the Russian constitution, then who extended the presidential term from five to seven years, then who re-elected himself for a third term, and now appears to believe himself the embodiment and the saviour of the Russian people and is desperately grasping onto power to avoid, in the offchance that the next president might have some respect for laws, being prosecuted for corruption on a continental scale.

Cabaal

Perhaps Ireland could do with a limit of a two term as well, "cough" Bertie who was in office 26 June 1997 – 7 May 2008,

Its a good idea to force the change as it force a party to change with the times faster then if you leave it with the same leader,

On that note "cough" Gerry Adams...leader of SF from 1983 - Present...I've seen dictators being in power for less time.

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

That's more of a "legacy" thing than a "what people want thing". The intention of the US constitution's restriction on two-term presidents is that the electorate will get an energetic president in his/her first term and one taking a long view in any second term - it works as a good restraint on presidential power, at least in countries where presidential legacies and smooth transitions of power are believed important. Russia, on the other hand, suffers from the opposite just now - a president who ignored the (poorly-worded) two-term limit in the Russian constitution, then who extended the presidential term from five to seven years, then who re-elected himself for a third term, and now appears to believe himself the embodiment and the saviour of the Russian people and is desperately grasping onto power to avoid, in the offchance that the next president might have some respect for laws, being prosecuted for corruption on a continental scale.

You could plot on a graph starting at 'Dodgy but solid bastard' and having him degenerate into 'possibly half mad looper' territory over the period of the last two decades.

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

You could plot on a graph starting at 'Dodgy but solid bastard' and having him degenerate into 'possibly half mad looper' territory over the period of the last two decades.

I'm sure there's room for a worthwhile PhD thesis in there - classifying a range of long-term leaders by locating the point in time at which each one began to believe themselves embodying the state, rather than the biggest citizen in it. And correlating this with public paranoia.

Which is as good a point as any to include a link to my favourite paper on elections - the splendid one which describes the protocol for the election of the Doge of Venice:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2007/HPL-2007-28R1.pdf

Frank Bullitt

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/latest-court-challenge-against-marriage-referendum-result-thrown-out-31553043.html

Back to being an electrician.