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8th Amendment

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Comments

  • #702
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    So was there or was there not a trial and conviction?

    I don't know, do you? Do you have any evidence that she wasn't raped?


  • #703
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    130Kph wrote: »
    When a woman is coerced in this jurisdiction to remain pregnant against her self-determination & fierce indignant opposition, can you explain how you reason that to yourself ethically i.e. focusing only on the woman and putting aside concerns about the foetus here - as your views on the foetus are completely clear to everybody?

    I’m interested in your views of the body-integrity of an individual in such a situation.

    See, here's where we differ.

    Mother and baby are important in my view. With the duty of being pregnant comes the responsibility to do no intentional harm to her unborn, defenceless child.


  • #704
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    inocybe wrote: »
    I don't know, do you? Do you have any evidence that she wasn't raped?

    No trial, no conviction? For clarity, is this the case?


  • #705
    anothernight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    See, here's where we differ.

    Mother and baby are important in my view. With the duty of being pregnant comes the responsibility to do no intentional harm to her unborn, defenceless child.

    Is being pregnant a duty when a woman is raped? She didn't choose to have sex. She was forced to. Is her unintended, unwanted pregnancy still her duty then?


  • #706
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,885 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    So was there or was there not a trial and conviction?
    would proof of a conviction make any difference to whether an abortion should have been permitted? If not, then what relevance does it have to the discussion?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #707
    130Kph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 625 ✭✭✭130Kph


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    See, here's where we differ.

    Mother and baby are important in my view. With the duty of being pregnant comes the responsibility to do no intentional harm to her unborn, defenceless child.

    But that is obvious. There's nothing new there - its a given. Its your viewpoint and there's no confusion or ambiguity about it.

    I'm asking you to step outside your familiar stance and address the question I asked you because I genuinely don't know what your answer might be. So I'll restate:-

    Q. When a woman is coerced in this jurisdiction to remain pregnant against her self-determination & fierce indignant opposition, can you explain how you reason that to yourself ethically i.e. focussing only on the woman and putting aside concerns about the foetus here - as your views on the foetus are completely clear to everybody?

    I’m interested in your views of the body-integrity of an individual in such a situation.


    If you don't want to answer, that's fine.


  • #708
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    No trial, no conviction? For clarity, is this the case?

    this is a bizarre road you're heading down.


  • #709
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,996 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    How the f*ck can we search for a rape case involving Ms. Y when we don't even know her real name?!


  • #710
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    anothernight wrote: »
    Is being pregnant a duty when a woman is raped? She didn't choose to have sex. She was forced to. Is her unintended, unwanted pregnancy still her duty then?

    Her innocent baby should not be exterminated or harmed in any way.


  • #711
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    would proof of a conviction make any difference to whether an abortion should have been permitted? If not, then what relevance does it have to the discussion?

    Absolutely not, as you well know.

    The reason for my basic questioning stems from the apparent certainty of a rape occurring in the first place. Hence my query about a trail and/or conviction.

    Do you know of any such trial?


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  • #712
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    How the f*ck can we search for a rape case involving Ms. Y when we don't even know her real name?!

    That's why she's a perfect example of how the 8th amendment works, nobody knows who she is. If she was an actual real human being, it wouldn't work, because every parent in the country would have her on a plane to the UK so fast it would make her head spin.

    And then they'd come back and vote to keep the 8th amendment, because something something Holy Catholic Ireland.


  • #713
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    130Kph wrote: »
    But that is obvious. There's nothing new there - its a given. Its your viewpoint and there's no confusion or ambiguity about it.

    I'm asking you to step outside your familiar stance and address the question I asked you because I genuinely don't know what your answer might be. So I'll restate:-

    Q. When a woman is coerced in this jurisdiction to remain pregnant against her self-determination & fierce indignant opposition, can you explain how you reason that to yourself ethically i.e. focussing only on the woman and putting aside concerns about the foetus here - as your views on the foetus are completely clear to everybody?

    I’m interested in your views of the body-integrity of an individual in such a situation.


    If you don't want to answer, that's fine.

    The body integrity of the mother and that of her unborn baby should both be respected and no intentional harm should come to either.


  • #714
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    The body integrity of the mother and that of her unborn baby should both be respected and no intentional harm should come to either.

    But if the foetus dies and the woman ends up a physical and mental wreck, c'est la vie.


  • #715
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Mother and baby are important in my view. With the duty of being pregnant...

    It's abundantly clear that the mother is important to you only in her role as an incubator.

    Duty of being pregnant, indeed.

    Keep posting.


  • #716
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Absolutely not, as you well know.

    The reason for my basic questioning stems from the apparent certainty of a rape occurring in the first place. Hence my query about a trail and/or conviction.

    Do you know of any such trial?

    this is so far beyond ridiculous. She was an asylum seeker! That generally means someone from a country without law and order, or where minorities are oppressed. What the hell are you talking about trials for, I don't understand what kind of bubble you must be living in.


  • #717
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,996 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    See, here's where we differ.

    Mother and baby are important in my view. With the duty of being pregnant comes the responsibility to do no intentional harm to her unborn, defenceless child.

    Are you butthurt that the Magdalenekazetten are closed?


  • #718
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,885 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Absolutely not, as you well know.

    The reason for my basic questioning stems from the apparent certainty of a rape occurring in the first place. Hence my query about a trail and/or conviction.

    Do you know of any such trial?

    So an irrelevant tangent it is then.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #719
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    inocybe wrote: »
    I don't understand what kind of bubble you must be living in.

    Black Menorca is presumably an actual Irish citizen, which means he/she and his/her family have access to the UK's abortion services.

    But immigrants, mental patients and prisoners shouldn't have the same access, because Saint Brigid.


  • #720
    130Kph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 625 ✭✭✭130Kph


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    The body integrity of the mother and that of her unborn baby should both be respected and no intentional harm should come to either.

    As I expected, you can’t even let your mind even go there. What a disturbing phenomenon to observe.


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  • #721
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    130Kph wrote: »
    As I expected, you can’t even let your mind even go there. What a disturbing phenomenon to observe.

    "She's only pregnant. That's what she's there for. She'll live."


  • #722
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    SW wrote: »
    So an irrelevant tangent it is then.

    No, I think it is relevant. If we put another mad clause in the constitution by referendum saying abortion is OK in the case of rape, there will be plenty of people like Black Menorca jumping in to say that without a rape conviction there can be no abortion. Of course, even in this jurisdiction a rape conviction takes more than 42 weeks, so no abortions for rape victims, hurrah!

    We need to remove it completely, and not amend or replace it.


  • #723
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    No, I think it is relevant. If we put another mad clause in the constitution by referendum saying abortion is OK in the case of rape, there will be plenty of people like Black Menorca jumping in to say that without a rape conviction there can be no abortion. Of course, even in this jurisdiction a rape conviction takes more than 42 weeks, so no abortions for rape victims, hurrah!

    We need to remove it completely, and not amend or replace it.

    I was thinking the same thing. There will be inquisitions about what she was wearing that night, was she asking for it.


  • #724
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's abundantly clear that the mother is important to you only in her role as an incubator.

    Duty of being pregnant, indeed.

    Keep posting.

    Remind the class. Which one of us is advocating for taking unborn life on Irish soil?


  • #725
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    inocybe wrote: »
    this is so far beyond ridiculous. She was an asylum seeker! That generally means someone from a country without law and order, or where minorities are oppressed. What the hell are you talking about trials for, I don't understand what kind of bubble you must be living in.

    No trial, no conviction. Thank you.


  • #726
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Are you butthurt that the Magdalenekazetten are closed?

    Don't get that one, though I assume its an attempt at a slur. Forgive me if I'm wrong.


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  • #727
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    130Kph wrote: »
    As I expected, you can’t even let your mind even go there. What a disturbing phenomenon to observe.

    Don't sweat is bud. I'm not that important. Seriously.


  • #728
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    No, I think it is relevant. If we put another mad clause in the constitution by referendum saying abortion is OK in the case of rape, there will be plenty of people like Black Menorca jumping in to say that without a rape conviction there can be no abortion. Of course, even in this jurisdiction a rape conviction takes more than 42 weeks, so no abortions for rape victims, hurrah!

    We need to remove it completely, and not amend or replace it.

    Are you advocating for speed trials in cases of rape?


  • #729
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,971 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    inocybe wrote: »
    I was thinking the same thing. There will be inquisitions about what she was wearing that night, was she asking for it.

    Presumably there would have to be some sort of Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 'panel' to adjudicate on the rape claim? And the detail of how that panel would operate would have to be inserted into the Constitution...

    I said upthread that this sort of piecemeal amendment of the Constitution was a non-runner because I hadn't heard any politicians explicitly advocating it. Well I heard one one radio the other day: Leo Varadkar. So now I'm not so sure...


  • #730
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Are you advocating for speed trials in cases of rape?

    I am advocating for abortion. I am pro-abortion. I am typing slowly so that you will not misunderstand me.


  • #731
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Presumably there would have to be some sort of Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 'panel' to adjudicate on the rape claim? And the detail of how that panel would operate would have to be inserted into the Constitution...

    I said upthread that this sort of piecemeal amendment of the Constitution was a non-runner because I hadn't heard any politicians explicitly advocating it. Well I heard one one radio the other day: Leo Varadkar. So now I'm not so sure...

    Absolutely not.

    No baby should be intentionally killed in genuine cases of rape.


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  • #732
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I am advocating for abortion. I am pro-abortion. I am typing slowly so that you will not misunderstand me.

    I got that 20 pages ago. :)


  • #733
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Which one of us is advocating for taking unborn life on Irish soil?

    Usually the pregnant woman would be on a bed or table indoors, not actually in contact with Irish soil.

    Unless we amend the constitution to make it a condition of abortion, I suppose, that some part of her be touching Irish soil. It would not be much crazier than what we have in the constitution now.


  • #734
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Presumably there would have to be some sort of Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 'panel' to adjudicate on the rape claim? And the detail of how that panel would operate would have to be inserted into the Constitution...

    I said upthread that this sort of piecemeal amendment of the Constitution was a non-runner because I hadn't heard any politicians explicitly advocating it. Well I heard one one radio the other day: Leo Varadkar. So now I'm not so sure...

    And how many women who have been raped will put themselves through a 'panel' adjudicating on their rape. It makes me feel sick just to think of it.


  • #735
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    No baby should be intentionally killed in genuine cases of rape.

    This would be the mental part of the "physical and mental wreck" judicial opinion.


  • #736
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    I got that 20 pages ago. :)

    So why are you still asking dumb questions like this:

    Are you advocating for speed trials in cases of rape?


  • #737
    130Kph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 625 ✭✭✭130Kph


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Don't sweat is bud. I'm not that important. Seriously.

    Agreed. I asked you a simple question.

    You are unwilling to answer it, for an obvious reason. No Big deal.


  • #738
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    inocybe wrote: »
    And how many women who have been raped will put themselves through a 'panel' adjudicating on their rape.

    None, hopefully.


  • #739
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    130Kph wrote: »
    Agreed. I asked you a simple question.

    You are unwilling to answer it, for an obvious reason. No Big deal.

    Life's too short to get hung up on it.


  • #740
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,971 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    inocybe wrote: »
    And how many women who have been raped will put themselves through a 'panel' adjudicating on their rape. It makes me feel sick just to think of it.

    If you are going to legalise abortion in rape/incest cases without introducing a de facto liberal abortion regime, I'm afraid you'd have to do something like this. But it would be close to unworkable in practice you would have to think. Does anyone know of a jurisdiction where abortion in cases of rape/incest was legalised without a broader liberalisation of the law. Curious as to how that would/could work in practice.


  • #741
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    None, hopefully.

    Agreed. They should all have the same access to abortion services that we voted all middle class people should have back in 1992.


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  • #742
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    None, hopefully.

    Exactly why they go to the UK at the moment. But it's OK to be a hypocrite and let them get abortions there as long as little old catholic Ireland can pretend to be abortion free just to show that we can control women here in the eyes of the bible belt of the USA.


  • #743
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    None, hopefully.

    Hopefully they'd find more compassion from women on web


  • #744
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    traprunner wrote: »
    Exactly why they go to the UK at the moment. But it's OK to be a hypocrite and let them get abortions there as long as little old catholic Ireland can pretend to be abortion free just to show that we can control women here in the eyes of the bible belt of the USA.

    All we can do is keep Ireland free from the horrors of the abortion industry and we've done a fine job as a nation. Something to be really proud of.


  • #745
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Does anyone know of a jurisdiction where abortion in cases of rape/incest was legalised without a broader liberalisation of the law.

    Narnia? Seriously, who cares? Irish women already have abortion on demand for the price of a city break.

    We are only talking about immigrants, prisoners, mental patients and the very rare unfortunates like Savita Halappanavar, that some on the pro-life side say should have had an abortion to save her life anyhow. Fussing about "opening the floodgates" is ridiculous: thousands of abortions happen every year regardless.


  • #746
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Narnia? Seriously, who cares? Irish women already have abortion on demand for the price of a city break.

    We are only talking about immigrants, prisoners, mental patients and the very rare unfortunates like Savita Halappanavar, that some on the pro-life side say should have had an abortion to save her life anyhow. Fussing about "opening the floodgates" is ridiculous: thousands of abortions happen every year regardless.

    When will the abortion lobby allow Savita rest in peace?


  • #747
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    All we can do is keep Ireland free from the horrors of the abortion industry and we've done a fine job as a nation. Something to be really proud of.


    We should have a competition to see who is the biggest hypocrite so that they can get an award and be the proudest.


  • #748
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Narnia? Seriously, who cares? Irish women already have abortion on demand for the price of a city break.

    We are only talking about immigrants, prisoners, mental patients and the very rare unfortunates like Savita Halappanavar, that some on the pro-life side say should have had an abortion to save her life anyhow. Fussing about "opening the floodgates" is ridiculous: thousands of abortions happen every year regardless.

    Agreed, except for the price of the city break part - the best part of 1000 euros would be some city break. It's enough to cause severe hardship for many, which of course only delights people like BM


  • #749
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    All we can do is keep Ireland free from the horrors of the abortion industry and we've done a fine job as a nation

    Well, if you ignore the 4000 or so abortions of Irish unborns happening every year, yeah!

    Well done pro-life movement! Preventing abortions for prisoners, the mentally ill and asylum seekers in Ireland since 1983!


  • #750
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    When will the abortion lobby allow Savita rest in peace?

    When we repeal the 8th, which killed her.


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  • #751
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Well, if you ignore the 4000 or so abortions of Irish unborns happening every year, yeah!

    Well done pro-life movement! Preventing abortions for prisoners, the mentally ill and asylum seekers in Ireland since 1983!

    But those 4000 are ok because while they are Irish women travelling to the UK and back for abortions they aren't really Irish abortions. See, totally and tropically illogical.


This discussion has been closed.
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