8th Amendment

swampgas · 16-06-2015 10:48pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

I'm not hiding.

I believe unborn babies have the right to have no intentional harm done to them and the law happens to agree with me.

Forget the law for a minute.

You believe something. Someone else believes something different.

Yet somehow your belief should be forced on them, forcing them to continue and endure a pregnancy they don't want ...

What's so special about your belief that it should trump anyone else's?

Black Menorca · 16-06-2015 11:30pm

swampgas wrote: »

Forget the law for a minute.

You believe something. Someone else believes something different.

Yet somehow your belief should be forced on them, forcing them to continue and endure a pregnancy they don't want ...

What's so special about your belief that it should trump anyone else's?

I force nothing on anyone.

I'm supporting the 8th and the X legislation as both combine to stop the abortion industry getting in.

krankykitty · 17-06-2015 8:15am

This "abortion industry" thing is getting boring now. Do you also complain about the cancer industry? The dentistry industry?

Delirium · 17-06-2015 8:22am

Black Menorca wrote: »

I force nothing on anyone.

actually you do with regard to the question asked by swampgas, and you've even said as much in a previous post.

Black Menorca wrote: »

I'm not hiding.

I believe unborn babies have the right to have no intentional harm done to them and the law happens to agree with me.

Your belief is imposed by law. So why does your belief trump that of a pregnant woman who wishes to abort?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 8:41am

krankykitty wrote: »

This "abortion industry" thing is getting boring now. Do you also complain about the cancer industry? The dentistry industry?

The cancer industry saves lives.
The dentistry industry saves dental health.

The abortion industry kills unborn fetuses.

See the difference?

krankykitty · 17-06-2015 8:55am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

The cancer industry saves lives.
The dentistry industry saves dental health.

The abortion industry kills unborn fetuses.

See the difference?

They aren't exactly "industries" though and that's the point I'm making. Why is abortion provision an "industry"? The NHS provide abortion free of charge for example. And private clinics who charge to those who wish to pay are no different to private dentists or physiotherapists or whatever, who provide healthcare for a charge.

Abortion provision (choice) saves maternal health, wellbeing and lives. Mental health is also health. It is a part of normal healthcare in most every other developed country in the world.

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 8:58am

krankykitty wrote: »

They aren't exactly "industries" though and that's the point I'm making. Why is abortion provision an "industry"? The NHS provide abortion free of charge for example. And private clinics who charge to those who wish to pay are no different to private dentists or physiotherapists or whatever, who provide healthcare for a charge.

Abortion provision (choice) saves maternal health, wellbeing and lives. Mental health is also health. It is a part of normal healthcare in most every other developed country in the world.

I'm all too aware of the importance of mental health.
But aborting a pregancy (pro choice speak) or killing an unborn baby (pro life speak) is not the same as preventing cancer or having a tooth pulled.

The cancer industry saves lives, whereas the abortion industry stops lives.

krankykitty · 17-06-2015 9:04am

you do know most abortions occur before 12 weeks. And why does the life of the foetus always trump the life of the living breathing woman? That's not equality. The 8th amendment isn't actually being upheld in a lot of cases, because women are given less rights, not equal rights to the foetus.

Look, for all those who don't want abortion in Ireland, don't you know Irish women are already having abortions? The 8th amendment is only stopping the those who can't travel, those who can't afford it and those who are too ill to travel. in other words, affecting those who are already at risk.

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:06am

krankykitty wrote: »

you do know most abortions occur before 12 weeks. And why does the life of the foetus always trump the life of the living breathing woman? That's not equality. The 8th amendment isn't actually being upheld in a lot of cases, because women are given less rights, not equal rights to the foetus.

The life of the fetus is equal to that of the woman, so she can't just go and kill it off. That's equality.

krankykitty wrote: »

Look, for all those who don't want abortion in Ireland, don't you know Irish women are already having abortions? The 8th amendment is only stopping the those who can't travel, those who can't afford it and those who are too ill to travel. in other words, affecting those who are already at risk.

That old chestnut again?
Just because something is legal in other countries doesnt mean it should be legal or encouraged here.

krankykitty · 17-06-2015 9:10am

Pregnancy and childbirth is a risky process to the health in itself. It raises a woman's lifetime risk of depression/mental health disorder

Women with unintended pregnancy are four times more likely to suffer from postpartum depression (Link

I sometimes get the feeling some people think that pregnancy, childbirth and raising a child is some sort of trivial event that women should just be able to put up with, whether they want to or not and regardless of the negative effects on them

krankykitty · 17-06-2015 9:11am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

The life of the fetus is equal to that of the woman, so she can't just go and kill it off. That's equality.

That old chestnut again?
Just because something is legal in other countries doesnt mean it should be legal or encouraged here.

Its HAPPENING here. to our citizens. In some cases, on Irish soil, without proper medical supervision. Let's just ignore that so!

17-06-2015 9:13am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

The life of the fetus is equal to that of the woman, so she can't just go and kill it off. That's equality.

We all know that that just is not true.

Simple thought experiment will tell you that you don't really value them like this. It's barbaric to even pretend it.

The woman has history, has family, has friends, has experiences, has stories, has impact.

This is all worthless?

traprunner · 17-06-2015 9:16am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

That old chestnut again?
Just because something is legal in other countries doesnt mean it should be legal or encouraged here.

Yeah that old chestnut. Pro-lifeForWhatPotentiallyCouldBe think that it's ok to have an abortion elsewhere once it's not in Ireland. Lets export the problem because we can ignore it then.

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:17am

krankykitty wrote: »

Pregnancy and childbirth is a risky process to the health in itself. It raises a woman's lifetime risk of depression/mental health disorder

Women with unintended pregnancy are four times more likely to suffer from postpartum depression (Link

I sometimes get the feeling some people think that pregnancy, childbirth and raising a child is some sort of trivial event that women should just be able to put up with, whether they want to or not and regardless of the negative effects on them

They should mitigate the risks by using contraception. And perhaps if a child is really that much of an abhorrence, abstaining altogether.

krankykitty wrote: »

Its HAPPENING here. to our citizens. In some cases, on Irish soil, without proper medical supervision. Let's just ignore that so!

Good idea, we shouldn't ignore it, we should be chasing them up and punishing them to the full extent of the law. Why is it acceptable to break the law here?

Deleted User wrote: »

We all know that that just is not true.

Simple thought experiment will tell you that you don't really value them like this. It's barbaric to even pretend it.

The woman has history, has family, has friends, has experiences, has stories, has impact.

This is all worthless?

Is the life that she and her partner created worthless? It is deemed worthless if you allow it to be killed.

traprunner · 17-06-2015 9:18am

krankykitty wrote: »

This "abortion industry" thing is getting boring now. Do you also complain about the cancer industry? The dentistry industry?

For educational purposes this is what industry means.

industry
ˈɪndəstri/
noun
noun: industry

1.
economic activity concerned with the processing of raw materials and manufacture of goods in factories.
"new investment incentives for British industry"
synonyms:manufacturing, production, fabrication, construction "the decline of British industry"
- a particular form or branch of economic or commercial activity.
  plural noun: industries
  "the car industry"
  synonyms:business, trade, field, line, line of work, line of business, commercial enterprise, service; Moreprofession, occupation, craft;
  informalracket
  "the publishing industry"
- informal
  an activity or domain in which a great deal of effort is expended.
  "the Shakespeare industry"
  synonyms:business, trade, field, line, line of work, line of business, commercial enterprise, service; Moreprofession, occupation, craft;
  informalracket
  "the publishing industry"
2.
hard work.
"the kitchen became a hive of industry"
synonyms:hard work, industriousness, diligence, assiduity, application, sedulousness, sedulity, conscientiousness, steadiness, tirelessness, persistence, pertinacity, perseverance, dedication, determination, rigour, rigorousness; More

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:18am

traprunner wrote: »

Yeah that old chestnut. Pro-lifeForWhatPotentiallyCouldBe think that it's ok to have an abortion elsewhere once it's not in Ireland. Lets export the problem because we can ignore it then.

We should extinguish the problem not export it.

17-06-2015 9:19am

@No Voter And Proud

I didn't mention the life of the fetus. I'm only commenting on you holding them equal.

Are the 'components' of the woman's life that I've mentioned totally and utterly worthless?

Are they wholly out of consideration?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:19am

traprunner wrote: »

For educational purposes this is what industry means.

industry
ˈɪndəstri/
noun
noun: industry
1.
economic activity concerned with the processing of raw materials and manufacture of goods in factories.
"new investment incentives for British industry"
synonyms:manufacturing, production, fabrication, construction "the decline of British industry"
a particular form or branch of economic or commercial activity.
plural noun: industries
"the car industry"
synonyms:business, trade, field, line, line of work, line of business, commercial enterprise, service; Moreprofession, occupation, craft;
informalracket
"the publishing industry"

informal
an activity or domain in which a great deal of effort is expended.
"the Shakespeare industry"
synonyms:business, trade, field, line, line of work, line of business, commercial enterprise, service; Moreprofession, occupation, craft;
informalracket
"the publishing industry"

2.
hard work.
"the kitchen became a hive of industry"
synonyms:hard work, industriousness, diligence, assiduity, application, sedulousness, sedulity, conscientiousness, steadiness, tirelessness, persistence, pertinacity, perseverance, dedication, determination, rigour, rigorousness; More

Abortions are not free are they? No.
They are paid for, either through direct taxation in the uk (which is a laughable concept in itself) or directly by the unmentionables who avail of the service.

traprunner · 17-06-2015 9:19am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

We should extinguish the problem not export it.

Then why aren't you protesting at the airports?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

@No Voter And Proud

I didn't mention the life of the fetus. I'm only commenting on you holding them equal.

Are the 'components' of the woman's life that I've mentioned totally and utterly worthless?

Are they wholly out of consideration?

I mentioned it.
Because they are both of equal worth.
Except, if you are comparing the quality of life of the mother versus the sheer existence of the child. Then I'm sorry but the right to mere existence trumps the right of the mother to exist happily.

traprunner · 17-06-2015 9:21am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Abortions are not free are they? No.
They are paid for, either through direct taxation in the uk (which is a laughable concept in itself) or directly by the unmentionables who avail of the service.

So your posting here is an industry too. Someone is paying for it, be it the government through social welfare, an employer or if you are self employed then it's your customers. Your idea of industry is what's laughable.

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:21am

traprunner wrote: »

Then why aren't you protesting at the airports?

I'd love to. But as an employee of two different industries I cannot abandon my post.

Once I hit pensionable age I will be!

17-06-2015 9:21am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Abortions are not free are they? No.
They are paid for, either through direct taxation in the uk (which is a laughable concept in itself) or directly by the unmentionables who avail of the service.

Sick women?
Underage Women?
Women who know that they could not fairly treat, nurture and love a child?
Women who cannot bear the thoughts of carrying and delivering a fetus which will die in their womb?

These aren't unmentionable. They're not people to be scared of, they're women you meet every single day.

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:22am

traprunner wrote: »

So your posting here is an industry too. Someone is paying for it, be it the government through social welfare, an employer or if you are self employed then it's your customers. Your idea of industry is what's laughable.

What's laughable is that none of the counter points I raised were addressed, the goal posts were moved with ridiculous tangents and strawmen.

traprunner · 17-06-2015 9:22am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I'd love to. But as an employee of two different industries I cannot abandon my post.

Once I hit pensionable age I will be!

Social welfare will pay for you to protest at the airports. Show that you have conviction in your beliefs!

Delirium · 17-06-2015 9:22am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Good idea, we shouldn't ignore it, we should be chasing them up and punishing them to the full extent of the law. Why is it acceptable to break the law here?

So women should spend 14 years in prison for using a pill that's available in other European countries?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

Sick women?
Underage Women?
Women who know that they could not fairly treat, nurture and love a child?
Women who cannot bear the thoughts of carrying and delivering a fetus which will die in their womb?

These aren't unmentionable. They're not people to be scared of, they're women you meet every single day.

If you kill your own child (born or unborn) then you are the lowest form of low unmentionable scum

17-06-2015 9:23am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I mentioned it.
Because they are both of equal worth.
Except, if you are comparing the quality of life of the mother versus the sheer existence of the child. Then I'm sorry but the right to mere existence trumps the right of the mother to exist happily.

Can you please try to flesh this out?

Deleted User wrote:

Simple thought experiment will tell you that you don't really value them like this. It's barbaric to even pretend it.

The woman has history, has family, has friends, has experiences, has stories, has impact.

This is all worthless?

Can you answer the direct question?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:23am

SW wrote: »

So women should spend 14 years in prison for using a pill that's available in other European countries?

Yes.
If they do it here on Irish soil (as mentioned by the other poster) then yes they should.

traprunner · 17-06-2015 9:24am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

What's laughable is that none of the counter points I raised were addressed, the goal posts were moved with ridiculous tangents and strawmen.

So it's wrong to correct the use of language?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you please try to flesh this out?

Can you answer the direct question?

Has been answered already.
TLDR: Not worthless, but here we go:

Mother's positive state of mood =/= child's right to exist
Mother's right to exist (excluding killing herself because that's her own choice) = child's right to exist

17-06-2015 9:24am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

If you kill your own child (born or unborn) then you are the lowest form of low unmentionable scum

Infanticide is not being discussed here, please don't attempt to conflate the two.

The remainder of your post has told me to step away from engaging.

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:25am

traprunner wrote: »

So it's wrong to correct the use of language?

You've lost me now.

This is so unrelated to the topic at hand.

17-06-2015 9:25am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Has been answered already.
TLDR: Not worthless, but here we go:

Mother's positive state of mood =/= child's right to exist
Mother's right to exist (excluding killing herself because that's her own choice) = child's right to exist

I did not ask about any of this. Please attempt to answer the direct question.

Deleted User wrote:

The woman has history, has family, has friends, has experiences, has stories, has impact.

This is all worthless?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

Infanticide is not being discussed here, please don't attempt to conflate the two.

The remainder of your post has told me to step away from engaging.

Didn't realise you were a moderator?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:26am

Deleted User wrote: »

I did not ask about any of this. Please attempt to answer the direct question.

I have answered it twice now.
Are you deficient or do I need to spell it phonetically for you?

Delirium · 17-06-2015 9:26am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Yes.
If they do it here on Irish soil (as mentioned by the other poster) then yes they should.

irrespective of what age they are when they take the pill?

if a 16 year takes the pill, you support a 14 prison term for that?

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-06-2015 9:26am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

If you kill your own child (born or unborn) then you are the lowest form of low unmentionable scum

Would you force a 14 year old rape victim to carry a child to full term and make her give birth?

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:27am

SW wrote: »

irrespective of what age they are when they take the pill?

if a 16 year takes the pill, you support a 14 prison term for that?

I support the taker of the pill to be tried in whatever the appropriate legal system is, within the jurisdiction of the applicable law.
So, if it's prescribed that a 16 year old can be tried as an adult then yes I do support that. Similar to how I would support jail term for a 16 year old tried and convicted of murder.

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:28am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Would you force a 14 year old rape victim to carry a child to full term and make her give birth?

It's not the unborn child's fault is it?

Penny Tration · 17-06-2015 9:29am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

It's not the unborn child's fault is it?

It's not the rape victim's fault either.

And it's not a child. It's a foetus.

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-06-2015 9:29am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

It's not the unborn child's fault is it?

That wasn't what I asked.

Would you force a 14 year old rape victim to carry her child to full term and make her give birth?

traprunner · 17-06-2015 9:30am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

It's not the unborn child's fault is it?

Dodging direct questions again.

Delirium · 17-06-2015 9:36am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I support the taker of the pill to be tried in whatever the appropriate legal system is, within the jurisdiction of the applicable law.
So, if it's prescribed that a 16 year old can be tried as an adult then yes I do support that. Similar to how I would support jail term for a 16 year old tried and convicted of murder.

Do you not think 14 years is somewhat excessive?

If she was raped, her rapist would only serve 7!

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 9:37am

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

It's not the rape victim's fault either.

And it's not a child. It's a foetus.

Well done. Now, for one green apple and a night with no homework, what does a fetus develop into?

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

That wasn't what I asked.

Would you force a 14 year old rape victim to carry her child to full term and make her give birth?

traprunner wrote: »

Dodging direct questions again.

Didn't realise it wasn't crystal clear from my post.
Apologies, you don't seem to get the highest literary minds around here, it seems.

Dumbed down version:
Of course the rape victim needs to carry the child to term. That's why I replied with "it's not the childs fault".

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-06-2015 9:43am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Well done. Now, for one green apple and a night with no homework, what does a fetus develop into?

Didn't realise it wasn't crystal clear from my post.
Apologies, you don't seem to get the highest literary minds around here, it seems.

Dumbed down version:
Of course the rape victim needs to carry the child to term. That's why I replied with "it's not the childs fault".

So you would rather force a child to carry her rapists foetus to full term, scarring her both mentally and physically for life? And then you claim you are trying to protect life? You obviously have no daughters of your own.

PopePalpatine · 17-06-2015 9:59am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

If you kill your own child (born or unborn) then you are the lowest form of low unmentionable scum

Shame. Shame. Shame. *rings bell* Shame. Shame. Shame. *rings bell*

No Voter And Proud · 17-06-2015 10:00am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So you would rather force a child to carry her rapists foetus to full term, scarring her both mentally and physically for life? And then you claim you are trying to protect life? You obviously have no daughters of your own.

My children's genders don't come into this.
I am trying to protect life. Mental and physical scars heal. Death does not.

johnnyskeleton · 17-06-2015 10:01am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

If you kill your own child (born or unborn) then you are the lowest form of low unmentionable scum

Please be civil

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

You've lost me now.

This is so unrelated to the topic at hand.

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Didn't realise you were a moderator?

If you believe someone is backseat moderating, please report it rather than saying so on thread.

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I have answered it twice now.
Are you deficient or do I need to spell it phonetically for you?

Please refrain from personal abuse. You've been banned for comments on this forum already, so please remain civil at all times.

traprunner · 17-06-2015 10:02am

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

My children's genders don't come into this.
I am trying to protect life. Mental and physical scars heal. Death does not.

Why are they called scars then?

8th Amendment

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