8th Amendment

Black Menorca

volchitsa wrote: »

The first report isn't due until the end of June. We'll have a better idea then.

Anyway, if you think abortion is murder, what difference does it make where Irish women have these abortions?

If I killed you on holiday in the UK, you'd still be dead, no?

I've never used that word.

volchitsa

Black Menorca wrote: »

I've never used that word.

So what's your problem with termination of pregnancy then?

Black Menorca

volchitsa wrote: »

So what's your problem with termination of pregnancy then?

I have no problem with pregnancy terminations where the intention of said termination is to save the mother from a direct physical threat to her life.

I do have a problem with intentional taking of unborn life. I do not believe innocent unborn babies should be left to the evils of an abortionist's chamber.

fits

Black Menorca wrote: »

I do not believe innocent unborn babies should be left to the evils of an abortionist's chamber.

Seriously.. go easy on the rhetoric there will you:rolleyes:

Black Menorca

fits wrote: »

Seriously.. go easy on the rhetoric there will you:rolleyes:

Marie Stopes might have clean wards, stainless steel staircases and smilie receptionists but the fundamental evil of that organisations raison d'etre should never be denied. The intentional destruction of unborn life.

fits

yeah yeah whatever. Its going on in every country in Europe except here. And it is here too only people have to fly to avail of it. Only a matter of time.

Black Menorca

fits wrote: »

yeah yeah whatever. Its going on in every country in Europe except here. And it is here too only people have to fly to avail of it. Only a matter of time.

I hope and will do all in my humble power to keep it that way, whenever the needs may arise in the coming years.

oscarBravo

Black Menorca wrote: »

I hope and will do all in my humble power to keep it that way, whenever the needs may arise in the coming years.

I find that a reprehensible attitude, for one simple reason: if a woman really wants an abortion, she will find a way to procure one.

If she has the means, she will travel to another country. This will probably take her out of her support group of family and friends and force her to face a difficult situation alone.

If she can't travel, she may purchase abortifacient drugs online. This means she is breaking the law, and self-medicating without competent supervision.

In the worst case, she may do herself considerable harm by attempting to cause an abortion, or by entrusting her health to an unlicensed practitioner.

Your philosophy is that it doesn't matter if she travels abroad for an abortion; it doesn't matter if she has to break the law and/or endanger her health: the only thing that matters to you is that the abortion she's going to have by whatever means necessary is not available in safe, legal circumstances in this country.

If your attitude actually helped to prevent abortions, it might have some merit. It doesn't, and it doesn't.

inocybe

Black Menorca wrote: »

All we can do is legislate for our own nation, no one else's.

Ireland is abortion free and a huge cohort of the population, I suspect, will vote against any attempt to repeal the 8th if and when it is threatened.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Ireland is most certainly not abortion free. Denying the reality of the need for a safe service won't make it go away.

Black Menorca

oscarBravo wrote: »

I find that a reprehensible attitude, for one simple reason: if a woman really wants an abortion, she will find a way to procure one.

If she has the means, she will travel to another country. This will probably take her out of her support group of family and friends and force her to face a difficult situation alone.

If she can't travel, she may purchase abortifacient drugs online. This means she is breaking the law, and self-medicating without competent supervision.

In the worst case, she may do herself considerable harm by attempting to cause an abortion, or by entrusting her health to an unlicensed practitioner.

Your philosophy is that it doesn't matter if she travels abroad for an abortion; it doesn't matter if she has to break the law and/or endanger her health: the only thing that matters to you is that the abortion she's going to have by whatever means necessary is not available in safe, legal circumstances in this country.

If your attitude actually helped to prevent abortions, it might have some merit. It doesn't, and it doesn't.

All we can do as a country is set a standard f decency.

Protecting unborn life while at the same time providing for the needs (financial and moral) for expectant mothers should be that standard, in my view.

Killing unborn babies is a clear sign society has failed. thankfully, Ireland has yet to admit such defeat. Succumbing to the abortion industry and those who advocate for it in Liberal circles will have the opportunity to put their case when the time comes. I have confidence the Irish people will defend mother and unborn baby, but we'll see when and if the time comes.

Black Menorca

inocybe wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble, Ireland is most certainly not abortion free. Denying the reality of the need for a safe service won't make it go away.

We can engage in semantics if you like.

The facts are abortion is a serious crime in this country and the 8th still provides protection to unborn babies.

ted1

fits wrote: »

I will vote labour if they make this referendum happen.
A personal contact had to travel to abort a much wanted but fatally abnormal foetus. There is no way she could have carried to term. They brought foetus home in boot of car to bury. Current system is absolutely cruel and heartless.
These decisions should be between woman, partner and doctors and noone else.

If the option was to allow abortion where the child won't survive, mothers life is in immediate danger , or the mother was rapped or is below a certain age I would vote yes.

If the option was to allow abortion in general I'd vite no

Black Menorca

ted1 wrote: »

If the option was to allow abortion where the child won't survive, mothers life is in immediate danger , or the mother was rapped or is below a certain age I would vote yes.

If the option was to allow abortion in general I'd vite no

There's the thing. Removing the 8th will remove the status and protection for unborn babies in this country. Then, with the introduction of limited legislation, its only a matter of time before we become as liberal as the UK.

Sure as night follows day.

inocybe

Black Menorca wrote: »

We can engage in semantics if you like.

The facts are abortion is a serious crime in this country and the 8th still provides protection to unborn babies.

So you'd like to jail women who take the abortion pill then?
What about women who try a dangerous herbal remedy, legally available to buy?
What about women who smoke and drink to excess hoping to cause an early miscarriage because she doesn't have 1000 euro to pay for a safe abortion?
Where exactly does that crime begin and end?

Black Menorca

inocybe wrote: »

So you'd like to jail women who take the abortion pill then?
What about women who try a dangerous herbal remedy, legally available to buy?
What about women who smoke and drink to excess hoping to cause an early miscarriage because she doesn't have 1000 euro to pay for a safe abortion?
Where exactly does that crime begin and end?

Who sad anything about jailing anyone?

Ireland has made a choice to protect unborn life. I am proud of that and will continue to advocate for such a status, despite the abortion regimes in other countries.

fits

If the option was to allow abortion where the child won't survive, mothers life is in immediate danger , or the mother was rapped or is below a certain age I would vote yes.

If the option was to allow abortion in general I'd vite no

I dont think its going to be that simple in reality though. Eight amendment has to be removed first, and then replaced with some sort of legislation.

To be quite honest and forthright, I am for abortion on demand below 10-12 weeks, I just think there are too many grey areas to legislate for. But if the majority of the public agree with those restrictions being put in the place, well we are a democracy, and that is fair enough. Retaining the eighth amendment without a referendum would be completely undemocratic in my view. It barely passed in 1983, and definitely should not be there now.

inocybe

Black Menorca wrote: »

We can engage in semantics if you like.

The facts are abortion is a serious crime in this country and the 8th still provides protection to unborn babies.

don't you want to jail people who commit serious crimes?

endacl

Black Menorca wrote: »

Should we re-visit the divorce decision every 20 years also? Lisbon, Childrens' rights, the Right to Travel etc?

Nah. Just get rid of it, and let each adult faced with that difficult decision make their own mind up according to their own circumstances, personal beliefs, and conscience. If somebody I don't know and will never meet wants a termination, it's none of my business.

Black Menorca

fits wrote: »

I dont think its going to be that simple in reality though. Eight amendment has to be removed first, and then replaced with some sort of legislation.

To be quite honest and forthright, I am for abortion on demand below 10-12 weeks, I just think there are too many grey areas to legislate for. But if the majority of the public agree with those restrictions being put in the place, well we are a democracy, and that is fair enough. Retaining the eighth amendment without a referendum would be completely undemocratic in my view. It barely passed in 1983, and definitely should not be there now.

67% voted for the 8th.

Black Menorca

inocybe wrote: »

don't you want to jail people who commit serious crimes?

I don't see jailing a mother would do any good whatsoever to be honest. Maybe you do.

P_1

Black Menorca wrote: »

67% voted for the 8th.

None of whom now face the issue on the most personal and direct manner today.

Black Menorca

P_1 wrote: »

None of whom now face the issue on the most personal and direct manner today.

I'm just clarifying up the confused opinion that the 8th was barely passed in 1983.

inocybe

Black Menorca wrote: »

I don't see jailing a mother would do any good whatsoever to be honest. Maybe you do.

Because it's not a crime!

Black Menorca

inocybe wrote: »

Because it's not a crime!

Do I have to quote the X Case legislation for you?

P_1

Black Menorca wrote: »

Do I have to quote the X Case legislation for you?

Thankfully it's one that a blind eye is throw towards. It's happening now, legislate for it so people can go through a traumatic event in as much comfort as possible.

Icepick

Next year or 2017 hopefully. And it should be repealed of course.

Black Menorca

P_1 wrote: »

Thankfully it's one that a blind eye is throw towards. It's happening now, legislate for it so people can go through a traumatic event in as much comfort as possible.

What blind eye?

Lets be honest and accurate here folks.

Abortion is a crime in this country, and to my knowledge not one unborn baby has been intentionally killed in the womb since the passing of X legislation last year.

Icepick

Abortion on demand is a misleading term.
In most countries where abortion is legal, on-demand is only possible to around the 12th week of pregnancy during the embryonic stage. Calling embryos children is emotive and plain wrong. And the vast majority of abortions occur much sooner.

Unfortunately I don't think the legislation will even be that brave after the amendment is repealed.

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

The facts are abortion is a serious crime in this country and the 8th still provides protection to unborn babies.

Again, no. Abortion was a serious crime here, until the 8th amendment made our anti-abortion law unconstitutional.

And it only protects "babies" whose mothers are poor, or in an institution, or have dodgy visa status.

Ordinary voting middle class folks just take a "city break", and that's that, which is the reason this ridiculous charade has gone on for so long.

Zubeneschamali

inocybe wrote: »

Because it's not a crime!

Not only is it not a crime, we passed an amendment guaranteeing access to abortion information and another guaranteeing that the state would not interfere with travel for abortions.

We like abortion just fine, as long as it happens under someone else's roof .

Black Menorca

OK lads and lasses. If you're going to debate the issue, at least do so knowing the basics.

Intentional taking of unborn life is a crime in this country. A fact clarified in last years X Case legislation.

Destruction of unborn human life
22.
(1) It shall be an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

Icepick

'unborn human life' is such a weird expression

Black Menorca

Icepick wrote: »

'unborn human life' is such a weird expression

I prefer unborn baby myself.

But the legislation is crystal clear.

volchitsa

Black Menorca wrote: »

But the legislation is crystal clear.

Except it's not is it? As the family of the young woman who so tragically died late last year discovered to their cost.

Black Menorca

volchitsa wrote: »

Except it's not is it? As the family of the young woman who so tragically died late last year discovered to their cost.

What are you referring to?

P_1

Black Menorca wrote: »

What are you referring to?

The woman who was kept on life support despite being in a state of decomposition due to the fact that she was in the early stages of pregnancy I'd imagine

Black Menorca

P_1 wrote: »

The woman who was kept on life support despite being in a state of decomposition due to the fact that she was in the early stages of pregnancy I'd imagine

Tragic case indeed.

A proper decision was made to turn off life support to the mother.

P_1

Black Menorca wrote: »

Tragic case indeed.

A proper decision was made to turn off life support to the mother.

One that would have been made a lot quicker and made an awful situation easier for all concerned if it weren't for the omnishambles of a law that our politicians are too spineless to allow us to have a vote on

Black Menorca

P_1 wrote: »

One that would have been made a lot quicker and made an awful situation easier for all concerned if it weren't for the omnishambles of a law that our politicians are too spineless to allow us to have a vote on

So on the basis of this case you would delete the 8th? Just like that? Wow.

P_1

Black Menorca wrote: »

So on the basis of this case you would delete the 8th? Just like that? Wow.

Ever heard of the phrase involving camels, straws and damaged vertebrae?

Black Menorca

P_1 wrote: »

Ever heard of the phrase involving camels, straws and damaged vertebrae?

Not good enough I'm afraid.

Explain to me why you would delete the right to life of unborn babies based on that one case.

P_1

Black Menorca wrote: »

Not good enough I'm afraid.

Explain to me why you would delete the right to life of unborn babies based on that one case.

That's some leap you have made there...

Where did you get the impression that I'd want to repeal the 8th based on one disgusting incident?

It's that incident, the other outrage to decency in Galway, fatal fetal anomalies and the general state of limbo a woman enters in this country once they fall pregnant that lead me to strongly believe that the 8th is not fit for purpose and is beyond repair. Simply scrap it and replace it with a law more befitting a secular republic in the 21st century.

Black Menorca

P_1 wrote: »

That's some leap you have made there...

Where did you get the impression that I'd want to repeal the 8th based on one disgusting incident?

It's that incident, the other outrage to decency in Galway, fatal fetal anomalies and the general state of limbo a woman enters in this country once they fall pregnant that lead me to strongly believe that the 8th is not fit for purpose and is beyond repair. Simply scrap it and replace it with a law more befitting a secular republic in the 21st century.

Your previous reply obviously.

Anyway, we're a long way off now.

No doubt the abortion obsessives in the Socialist Party and Socialist Workers Party will go for it gung ho.

But it can only happen if Labour force it onto a programme for Government and if they do, it will be two or three years before the vote. And then I can't see the Irish people turning their backs on unborn babies and their mothers.

We'll see closer to the event.

oscarBravo

Black Menorca wrote: »

All we can do as a country is set a standard f decency.

Pretending that Irish women don't have abortions just because they're not legal here is your definition of decency?

Protecting unborn life while at the same time providing for the needs (financial and moral) for expectant mothers should be that standard, in my view.

If it worked, you might have a point. It doesn't. The standard "pro-life" approach of pretending that Irish women don't have abortions is nothing but a bare-faced lie, and one you seem all too happy to live.

Killing unborn babies is a clear sign society has failed. thankfully, Ireland has yet to admit such defeat. Succumbing to the abortion industry and those who advocate for it in Liberal circles will have the opportunity to put their case when the time comes. I have confidence the Irish people will defend mother and unborn baby, but we'll see when and if the time comes.

If you mean that the Irish people will buy into the lie that if we all pretend really, really hard that Irish women don't have abortions, I'm troubled that you might be right.

But I'm not happy to live that lie, especially given the very high cost paid by those very same Irish women. If it's a price that you're happy to pay, well, that's up to you.

oscarBravo

Black Menorca wrote: »

...the abortion obsessives...

That, by the way, is an utterly repugnant phrase. You're probably incapable of understanding why.

inocybe

Black Menorca wrote: »

OK lads and lasses. If you're going to debate the issue, at least do so knowing the basics.

Intentional taking of unborn life is a crime in this country. A fact clarified in last years X Case legislation.

Destruction of unborn human life
22.
(1) It shall be an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

So it's a crime, but we don't want to jail anyone for it because we know how outrageous that is? What a joke.

volchitsa

Black Menorca wrote: »

Tragic case indeed.

A proper decision was made to turn off life support to the mother.

Not until her body was rotting in front of her distressed children though.

That isn't necessary in other jurisdictions. you may think it's no harm to traumatize children like that. I don't agree.

Black Menorca

oscarBravo wrote: »

Pretending that Irish women don't have abortions just because they're not legal here is your definition of decency? If it worked, you might have a point. It doesn't. The standard "pro-life" approach of pretending that Irish women don't have abortions is nothing but a bare-faced lie, and one you seem all too happy to live. If you mean that the Irish people will buy into the lie that if we all pretend really, really hard that Irish women don't have abortions, I'm troubled that you might be right.

But I'm not happy to live that lie, especially given the very high cost paid by those very same Irish women. If it's a price that you're happy to pay, well, that's up to you.

Defeatist attitudes like that are prevalent among many, unfortunately.

Because abortions happen elsewhere, we should just give up and allow the abortion industry profiteer on the death of unborn boys and girls.

thankfully there are enough people who stand up to this complacency and say no. Irish mothers and their babies deserve better. We should cherish mothers and their babies equally and set a Life standard, despite the regimes of misery all around us.

Black Menorca

inocybe wrote: »

So it's a crime, but we don't want to jail anyone for it because we know how outrageous that is? What a joke.

I fail to see any justice in jailing a woman who availed of an abortion. That takes nothing form the abhorrance of the abortion in the first place or the moral redundancy of those who work in the abortion industry.

murpho999

Glenman wrote: »

This will be like the SSM, everyone has a different opinion, I believe that God gave life and only he should take it away.

God should be kept to your religious beliefs.

God should now have any influence on the laws that a country makes.

The fact is that prohibiting abortion has not solved any problems and only caused heartache for thousands.

Time for the country to grow up, not to be so emotive on this subject and be realistic and change the law.