8th Amendment

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

God should be kept to your religious beliefs.

God should now have any influence on the laws that a country makes.

The fact is that prohibiting abortion has not solved any problems and only caused heartache for thousands.

Time for the country to grow up, not to be so emotive on this subject and be realistic and change the law.

Comments like we should 'grow up' as if growing up means we should sanction killing unborn babies n this country is just strange.

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

Defeatist attitudes like that are prevalent among many, unfortunately.

Because abortions happen elsewhere, we should just give up and allow the abortion industry profiteer on the death of unborn boys and girls.

thankfully there are enough people who stand up to this complacency and say no. Irish mothers and their babies deserve better. We should cherish mothers and their babies equally and set a Life standard, despite the regimes of misery all around us.

So you are happy for a child to be born into a home where it may not be wanted or supported properly.

At present people profit from Abortion but it's travel companies and foreign clinics.
By the way there is no "abortion industry" , just like there is no "transplant industry" or "cancer industry" , it's all medicine/surgery. No need to dramatise the language.

Ireland's resistance to this is blinkered and denying women their human rights to control their own bodies and it really is time to change.

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

Comments like we should 'grow up' as if growing up means we should sanction killing unborn babies n this country is just strange.

Yes it is time for the country to grow up , just like it had too with gay rights (as in legalisation in 1993, contraception, divorce etc)

So it's ok for babies to be "killed" somewhere else?

WHat is your viewpoint on contraception.

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

So you are happy for a child to be born into a home where it may not be wanted or supported properly.

As opposed to being mutilated in the womb?

Damn straight!

I'm amazed you'd actually ask such a no brainer.

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes it is time for the country to grow up , just like it had too with gay rights (as in legalisation in 1993, contraception, divorce etc)

So it's ok for babies to be "killed" somewhere else?

What is your viewpoint on contraception.

So setting up a Marie Stopes Clinic on a street corner is growing up? Wow.

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

As opposed to being mutilated in the womb?

Damn straight!

I'm amazed you'd actually ask such a no brainer.

It's not a no-brainer and what you need to go away and think and read about.

Why does a woman want the abortion in the first place?

What impact will it have on her life by having it? For example if on drugs, or unemployed, an abusive relationship or just simply too young ? So many reasons.

Are you happy to condemn a child to a potential life of eternal misery, unloved and in desperate poverty.
Who are you to say that that woman cannot take charge of her own body and make the decision for herself.

What is the difference anyway if she can just go abroad and get it?

Pro-life supporters just focus on the emotive 'killing' issue but never think it through in my opinion.

am946745

Gael23 wrote: »

Will we ever see a referendum to repeal this?

I hope not. All child should have an equal chance of life. You can't have equality for some children and not for others.

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

So setting up a Marie Stopes Clinic on a street corner is growing up? Wow.

Yes it would be.

Have a look at their website here.

They even have a dedicated section for Irish & Spanish women.

That is a damining enough indictment of our archaic laws in my opinion.

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

It's not a no-brainer and what you need to go away and think and read about.

Why does a woman want the abortion in the first place?

What impact will it have on her life by having it? For example if on drugs, or unemployed, an abusive relationship or just simply too young ? So many reasons.

Are you happy to condemn a child to a potential life of eternal misery, unloved and in desperate poverty.
Who are you to say that that woman cannot take charge of her own body and make the decision for herself.

What is the difference anyway if she can just go abroad and get it?

Pro-life supporters just focus on the emotive 'killing' issue but never think it through in my opinion.

Your arrogance is jaw dropping.

You see fit to make a call to extinguish the life of a baby girl because her mother might not be able to care for her properly?

Disgusting, flippant disregard for the right to life of all humans, born and unborn.

am946745

Why does Marie Stopes have to pay an exmarketer £500k to run the "charity" ? Who happens to have ties to pharma industry?

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes it would be.

Have a look at their website here.

They even have a dedicated section for Irish & Spanish women.

That is a damining enough indictment of our archaic laws in my opinion.

Promoting abortinoists is pretty low.

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

Your arrogance is jaw dropping.

You see fit to make a call to extinguish the life of a baby girl because her mother might not be able to care for her properly?

Disgusting, flippant disregard for the right to life of all humans, born and unborn.

Don't think I'm being arrogant in giving a woman the right to decide her own destiny.

You however are proposing that a child being brought up in a life of misery due to neglect is better than abortion.

So who is arrogant?

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

Promoting abortinoists is pretty low.

You mentioned them first. I never thought of them so thanks for that.

They also do more that just abortions too you know but also a broad range of sexual health for both sexes.

oscarBravo

Black Menorca wrote: »

Defeatist attitudes like that are prevalent among many, unfortunately.

Because abortions happen elsewhere, we should just give up and allow the abortion industry profiteer on the death of unborn boys and girls.

thankfully there are enough people who stand up to this complacency and say no. Irish mothers and their babies deserve better. We should cherish mothers and their babies equally and set a Life standard, despite the regimes of misery all around us.

You're not listening.

Banning abortion in Ireland doesn't prevent Irish women from having abortions.

You may not care about that; it may be important for you to cling to the pretence that banning abortions in Ireland is "protecting" anyone. It's not.

Your entire argument is a lie. All your bolloxology about "cherishing" women by forcing them to travel abroad to terminate their pregnancy is, frankly, sickening in its hypocrisy. But then, sickening hypocrisy has been the constant companion of every tooth-and-nail battle conservatives have fought against any form of social progress.

am946745

murpho999 wrote: »

Don't think I'm being arrogant in giving a woman the right to decide her won destiny.

You however are proposing that a child being brought up in a life of misery due to neglect is better than abortion.

So who is arrogant?

So basically some child should not have rights.. We should change our constition so that there wont be equality for all children? Gay rights fine...baby no.

murpho999

am946745 wrote: »

So basically some child should not have rights.. We should change our constition so that there wont be equality for all children? Gay rights fine...baby no.

When a child is at a certain term of pregnancy or born then it has rights.

When it is nothing more than an embryo then a woman should be free to make their own choices free from criticism from fundamentalists who just think of one issue.

am946745

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're not listening.

Banning abortion in Ireland doesn't prevent Irish women from having abortions.

You may not care about that; it may be important for you to cling to the pretence that banning abortions in Ireland is "protecting" anyone. It's not.

Your entire argument is a lie. All your bolloxology about "cherishing" women by forcing them to travel abroad to terminate their pregnancy is, frankly, sickening in its hypocrisy. But then, sickening hypocrisy has been the constant companion of every tooth-and-nail battle conservatives have fought against any form of social progress.

Sorry the logic does not follow. Women have always had abortions, some women have abandoned their children, some killed them. WE as a society should support all women and treat all children equally. abortion is not equality, its false mercy, and industry with its own vested interests.

oscarBravo

am946745 wrote: »

Sorry the logic does not follow. Women have always had abortions, some women have abandoned their children, some killed them. WE as a society should support all women and treat all children equally. abortion is not equality, its false mercy, and industry with its own vested interests.

You're also not listening.

It happens. It has always happened. It's always going to happen.

Ramming your fingers in your ears and chanting "baby killers!" over and over again is not treating everyone equally; it's relegating women to incubators whose rights are subservient to a cluster of cells that isn't even a person yet.

am946745

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're also not listening.

It happens. It has always happened. It's always going to happen.

Ramming your fingers in your ears and chanting "baby killers!" over and over again is not treating everyone equally; it's relegating women to incubators whose rights are subservient to a cluster of cells that isn't even a person yet.

If they wanted to get rid of a couple of cells they have the morning after pill, which is available all over ireland.

And who determines who is a person?

Our constution declares and gives rights from conception, why remove this equality?

murpho999

am946745 wrote: »

If they wanted to get rid of a couple of cells they have the morning after pill, which is available all over ireland.

And who determines who is a person?

Our constution declares and gives rights from conception, why remove this equality?

If you are ok with the morning after pill then what is your issue with abortion which is a similar thing in a different format at a later stage?

am946745

murpho999 wrote: »

If you are ok with the morning after pill then what is your issue with abortion which is a similar thing in a different format at a later stage?

I'm not ok with the morning after pill, and i am certainly not ok with killing a child. But the pill is in every pharmacy, and its no enough.

The reality is that women don't want certain babies, that is why 70% of Downs children are aborted, they are not valued and treated equally.

We need eqaulity for all children.

In the US they opposed removing the right to abortion up to 40 weeks!!! Once you go down the path of abortion it has no ends, you even have some doctors proposing infanticide in certain cases.

oscarBravo

am946745 wrote: »

I'm not ok with the morning after pill...

There's a shock.

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

Don't think I'm being arrogant in giving a woman the right to decide her own destiny.

You however are proposing that a child being brought up in a life of misery due to neglect is better than abortion.

So who is arrogant?

You say that as if in some way being mutilated by an abortionist is a viable alternative.

Shocking.

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

You mentioned them first. I never thought of them so thanks for that.

They also do more that just abortions too you know but also a broad range of sexual health for both sexes.

I hear they make exceedingly good coffee and their stationary is second to none.

deBop

am946745 wrote: »

We need eqaulity for all children.

Since you're all for equality for children then I suppose you support reforming the education system so it's completely secular so each and every child is treated equally?

Black Menorca

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're not listening.

Banning abortion in Ireland doesn't prevent Irish women from having abortions.

You may not care about that; it may be important for you to cling to the pretence that banning abortions in Ireland is "protecting" anyone. It's not.

Your entire argument is a lie. All your bolloxology about "cherishing" women by forcing them to travel abroad to terminate their pregnancy is, frankly, sickening in its hypocrisy. But then, sickening hypocrisy has been the constant companion of every tooth-and-nail battle conservatives have fought against any form of social progress.

As if killing unborn babies is somehow equated to social progress.

George Orwell how are ya.

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

You say that as if in some way being mutilated by an abortionist is a viable alternative.

Shocking.

Why are you using such dramatic and emotive language as mutilated when that is not what happens.

The fact is you or I have no right to decide what a woman does with her own pregnancy that my not suit her circumstances.

Like religion people should just stick to their own personal beliefs and let people make their own decisions.

The pro life lobby always adopt the prohibitionist stance that has been shown not to work an causes major trauma for women all over Ireland but that's ok.

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

Why are you using such dramatic and emotive language as mutilated when that is not what happens.

The fact is you or I have no right to decide what a woman does with her own pregnancy that my not suit her circumstances.

Like religion people should just stick to their own personal beliefs and let people make their own decisions.

The pro life lobby always adopt the prohibitionist stance that has been shown not to work an causes major trauma for women all over Ireland but that's ok.

So in essence your point about the child being neglected is not your driving reason. More important is the 'right' to choose.

endacl

Black Menorca wrote: »

So in essence your point about the child being neglected is not your driving reason. More important is the 'right' to choose.

So, we can count on your Yes on the day then?

Black Menorca

endacl wrote: »

So, we can count on your Yes on the day then?

Yes for the 8th to remain intact? But of course.

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

So in essence your point about the child being neglected is not your driving reason. More important is the 'right' to choose.

The right to choose is very important.

The neglected child was an example of how having a child can have mean a life of perpetual misery both physically and emotionally for the child.
I don't see how anybody would want that.

Black Menorca

murpho999 wrote: »

The right to choose is very important.

The neglected child was an example of how having a child can have mean a life of perpetual misery both physically and emotionally for the child.
I don't see how anybody would want that.

You're gas, insinuating I want a child to live in misery.

But enough of that nonsense, the worrying factor is that you consider destroying an unborn baby in the womb as a justified alternative.

murpho999

Black Menorca wrote: »

You're gas, insinuating I want a child to live in misery.

But enough of that nonsense, the worrying factor is that you consider destroying an unborn baby in the womb as a justified alternative.

Yes, that what you are sentencing some children to with your policy.

Not a NSA agent

With our current system we just wait until they are more developed and hand over money to some foreign companies who profit from abortions. I guess some people view promoting a worse situation is ok as long as they can say no abortions in Ireland.

Very few people appear to understand what happens during pregnancy, it's as if there are no negative affects for the woman.

Loafing Oaf

Black Menorca wrote: »

I will be voting Labour in the next GE

Was that a tough call for you Silvi - sorry, 'Black Menorca';)?

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

So on the basis of this case you would delete the 8th? Just like that? Wow.

I voted against the 8th amendment at the time. I will vote to remove it at the earliest opportunity, and every subsequent opportunity until it is gone or I am dead.

Zubeneschamali

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're not listening.

Ah, abortion debate, how I have missed you.

No Voter And Proud

Black Menorca wrote: »

Yes for the 8th to remain intact? But of course.

Interesting.
As a die hard anti-abortion voter I would like to remove the 8th. As Mary Robinson said when it was introduced, it's bad law.

However I don't think I could do anything but vote to keep it - as if it's removed then the floodgates will open.

Zubeneschamali

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

if it's removed then the floodgates will open.

Yes, we'll be on the slippery slope into the jaws of a dilemma without a paddle!

volchitsa

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Interesting.
As a die hard anti-abortion voter I would like to remove the 8th. As Mary Robinson said when it was introduced, it's bad law.

However I don't think I could do anything but vote to keep it - as if it's removed then the floodgates will open.

Except the floodgates are already open - to the United Kingdom. Legal abortion, recognized in Irish law for Irish women.

What you mean is, if it's removed, then perhaps the pretence that Irish women don't have abortions will end. That's the most that could happen.

No Voter And Proud

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, we'll be on the slippery slope into the jaws of a dilemma without a paddle!

volchitsa wrote: »

Except the floodgates are already open - to the United Kingdom. Legal abortion, recognized in Irish law for Irish women.

What you mean is, if it's removed, then perhaps the pretence that Irish women don't have abortions will end. That's the most that could happen.

No, what I mean is if its more easily available at less cost and inconvenience then more will happen.
The floodgates are not open, there's a trickle of unmentionables at best going to the UK.

FreudianSlippers

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

No, what I mean is if its more easily available at less cost and inconvenience then more will happen.
The floodgates are not open, there's a trickle of unmentionables at best going to the UK.

This is probably one of the most ignorant things I have ever read.

From this statement, I'm guessing you're a male in your 40s+, from the backwater country and have very little knowledge of female anatomy.

Why do I say this? Because anyone that propagates the idea that (and let's face it, you're beating around the bush but you're getting there) abortions are or would be used more frequently as a form of "contraception" is ignorant of the process. I'm not equipped with the requisite genitalia to have an abortion but trust me when I tell you that I have personal experience at the side of a friend in the UK who had an abortion and it is not something physically or psychologically that one would want to do ever.

No Voter And Proud

So because I am morally opposed to killing unborn children (or viable children), then I am ignorant?
What a great world of equality we live in..... NOT

FreudianSlippers

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

So because I am morally opposed to killing unborn children (or viable children), then I am ignorant?
What a great world of equality we live in..... NOT

Re-read what I wrote. Your statement that cheaper and more available abortions will result in there being more occurring is just shy of coming out to say that it will be used as a form of contraception. The statement by itself is ignorant and the implication therein is even more so.

I would also respectfully suggest that you look up the word "ignorant" as I don't think it means what you think it means.

Zubeneschamali

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

No, what I mean is if its more easily available at less cost and inconvenience then more will happen.
The floodgates are not open, there's a trickle of unmentionables at best going to the UK.

Per UK government figures, between 1980 and 2013, at least 158,252 women living in Ireland travelled to England and Wales to access safe abortion services. Roughly 5000 a year. This is a low estimate, since people can give a UK address, and then won't be recorded.

5000 per year, about 2.2 million women, so our abortion rate is something like 2 per 1000, vs. a UK figure of about 8.

So our figure is lower than the UKs, but not "a trickle".

The only people prevented from travelling are the very poor who can't afford a UK "city break", women in institutions like mental hospitals and prisons, and people like that poor unfortunate rape victim with bad visa status.

But hey, feck them, right? As long as we can pretend to be Holy Ireland with none of that happening under our roof, it's all good!

No Voter And Proud

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Re-read what I wrote. Your statement that cheaper and more available abortions will result in there being more occurring is just shy of coming out to say that it will be used as a form of contraception. The statement by itself is ignorant and the implication therein is even more so.

I would also respectfully suggest that you look up the word "ignorant" as I don't think it means what you think it means.

So therefore I am ignorant of the word ignorant, in addition to you being ignorant of the point I was making?

As a pro-life christian, anything that prevents even one harmless child from being killed is a positive in my eyes.

endacl

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

So because I am morally opposed to killing unborn children (or viable children), then I am ignorant?
What a great world of equality we live in..... NOT

Location: Roscommon.

Ah. Makes sense. S'ok. You'll lose this one too.

Maybe Roscommon could secede? You could still cross the border to do your shopping, but keep your minorities and women oppressed in your own state? Of course, we'd be obliged to extend citizenship to anybody who wanted to leave. We'd send you our bigots and misogynists though. You wouldn't be lonely, and sure you'd have all the sheep to yourself in the meantime. You can have john Waters back an' all.

volchitsa

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Per UK government figures, between 1980 and 2013, at least 158,252 women living in Ireland travelled to England and Wales to access safe abortion services. Roughly 5000 a year. This is a low estimate, since people can give a UK address, and then won't be recorded.

5000 per year, about 2.2 million women, so our abortion rate is something like 2 per 1000, vs. a UK figure of about 8.

So our figure is lower than the UKs, but not "a trickle".

And of course you need to factor in the women ordering abortion pills online, (with no medical care at all, necessarily) and those who go outside the UK - I believe Spain and the Netherlands are frequent destinations.

The 2 per thousand is probably nowhere near the total.

But sure that's grand, as long as the fundies can keep their own fictional world intact in their own minds. Who cares about actual abortions, when we can rub our hands and congratulate ourselves that we've ensured that the world is still flat.

PS who's Silvi?

Godge

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

So because I am morally opposed to killing unborn children (or viable children), then I am ignorant?
What a great world of equality we live in..... NOT

You may not be ignorant but you are a misogynist of the worst kind.

No Voter And Proud

Godge wrote: »

You may not be ignorant but you are a misogynist of the worst kind.

Is that what we call it now?
Misogynist?
In my day we called it defending the right to life. I voiced my concerns in the last abortion referendum and although I was just too young to vote, I know that most of my then immediate family were also no voters. Unfortunately we don't all come from such a good moral background it seems.