8th Amendment

Black Menorca

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Why does the constitution explicitly allow that the right to life of the unborn does not affect a woman's right to travel or obtain abortion information?

Because the Irish People amended the Constitution, enabling the right to travel. The People are Sovereign.

keane2097

Black Menorca wrote: »

I refer you to the X Legislation, it makes it very clear what the punishment can be maximised to.

Do you think people who take their kids abroad and kill them should be open to punishment when they come away home?

ec18

Black Menorca wrote: »

I oppose the deliberate killing of unborn babies and the Irish Statute Book and Constitution agree with me.

based on your belief, that i'm assuming life begins at conception? (Apologies if i'm wrong)

But based on your posts here, it's a very strong belief (incorrect for it to be enshrined in a Constitution). It's a terrible reflection of the power that the catholic church had in Ireland that such a amendment was ever proposed let alone passed.

I'm off to argue with a wall I have an inkling that the wall will be more willingly to listen to reason than you

Lux23

Black Menorca wrote: »

I oppose the deliberate killing of unborn babies and the Irish Statute Book and Constitution agree with me.

That is firmly held view and I respect that, but I would like the chance to vote on repealing the 8th amendment. It was put in a year after I was born and I don't think it has any relevance, 32 years later. Thousands of Irish women are travelling abroad to have abortions and with access to abortion pill on the internet, I don't see that it is fair to those women to keep the 8th in place.

I think it is funny that gay marriage and abortion are though of as similar issues. One is about two people falling in love and committing and the other is about ending a life/potential. Hugely different topics.

Black Menorca

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You keep asking this, even though you have already been told that nobody knows. They really don't have to put a notice in the paper.

So as far as you know, not one unborn baby has been intentionally killed.

We'll go with that, given there's no evidence to the contrary.

Black Menorca

keane2097 wrote: »

Do you think people who take their kids abroad and kill them should be open to punishment when they come away home?

Yes, of course.

c_man

So is there any chance of something happening on this before the next general election?

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

I refer you to the X Legislation, it makes it very clear what the punishment can be maximised to.

14 years. So that's 158,000 women since 1983 who should have been jailed for 14 years each for abortion. Say they serve 7 years with good behaviour, maybe 30,000 would be behind bars right now.

6 times our actual prison population - that's a pretty draconian place you live in, inside your head.

Black Menorca

ec18 wrote: »

based on your belief, that i'm assuming life begins at conception? (Apologies if i'm wrong)

But based on your posts here, it's a very strong belief (incorrect for it to be enshrined in a Constitution). It's a terrible reflection of the power that the catholic church had in Ireland that such a amendment was ever proposed let alone passed.

I'm off to argue with a wall I have an inkling that the wall will be more willingly to listen to reason than you

Give me the 8th and X legislation over an day, over abortion on request regimes in our near neighbours.

Huntergonzo

Black Menorca wrote: »

If Savita has proper due care and attention, shoe would never have died.

I have an aversion to killing unborn babies and do not want Ireland to turn into another abortion ridden country like our neighbours.

Correct, if she got due care = the abortion she needed then she probably would be alive today.

Listen abortions aren't ideal but fact of the matter is Irish women are going to have them whether you or anybody else has an aversion to them or not, but exporting then problem is not the way to deal with it.

Ps, why do you have an aversion to abortion?

keane2097

Black Menorca wrote: »

Yes, of course.

Obviously you know what's coming, but this belief for you doesn't extend to the killing of unborn children abroad?

Just trying to clarify your position, because this fumbling around with "killing unborn children" vs saying "murder" or whatever just mires the discussion.

Black Menorca

c_man wrote: »

So is there any chance of something happening on this before the next general election?

Not a chance.

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

We'll go with that, given there's no evidence to the contrary.

No, I'll wait for the actual numbers when they are reported.

ec18

Black Menorca wrote: »

Give me the 8th and X legislation over an day, over abortion on request regimes in our near neighbours.

The point is that it's not all about you and your beliefs, it's about peoples right to make choices based on their circumstances, beliefs and any relevant medical advice

Black Menorca

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Correct, if she got due care = the abortion she needed then she probably would be alive today.

Listen abortions aren't ideal but fact of the matter is Irish women are going to have them whether you or anybody else has an aversion to them or not, but exporting then problem is not the way to deal with it.

Ps, why do you have an aversion to abortion?

Baloney and shameful to boot. Hijacking Savita's deaht to peddle your agenda for abortion.

Black Menorca

keane2097 wrote: »

Obviously you know what's coming, but this belief for you doesn't extend to the killing of unborn children abroad?

Just trying to clarify your position, because this fumbling around with "killing unborn children" vs saying "murder" or whatever just mires the discussion.

The Constitution enshrines the right to travel.

Black Menorca

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, I'll wait for the actual numbers when they are reported.

At the moment no unborn baby has been intentionally killed in Ireland, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

keane2097

Black Menorca wrote: »

The Constitution enshrines the right to travel.

That wasn't what I asked you, I know what the constitution says.

I'll pose the question slightly more clearly.

Do you think people who kill unborn babies abroad ought to be subject to punishment when they come home?

Lux23

Black Menorca wrote: »

The Constitution enshrines the right to travel.

So you are more concerned with abortions happening in Ireland then, if it happens abroad it doesn't count?

Black Menorca

ec18 wrote: »

The point is that it's not all about you and your beliefs, it's about peoples right to make choices based on their circumstances, beliefs and any relevant medical advice

Go ahead and advocate for repealing the 8th. Give it your best shot, along with Averil, Ivana, Ruth and Claire.

Its just a shame it takes something like killing unborn babies that gets some people all interested in public affairs.

If you succeed you will be met with fierce opposition and the People will decide, again.

ec18

Black Menorca wrote: »

Baloney and shameful to boot. Hijacking Savita's deaht to peddle your agenda for abortion.

Didn't the inquiry conclude that based on medical evidence available an abortion would have saved her?

Black Menorca

keane2097 wrote: »

That wasn't what I asked you, I know what the constitution says.

I'll pose the question slightly more clearly.

Do you think people who kill unborn babies abroad ought to be subject to punishment when they come home?

I fail to see the point of imprisoning women who have already been violent assaulted by an abortionist.

Black Menorca

Lux23 wrote: »

So you are more concerned with abortions happening in Ireland then, if it happens abroad it doesn't count?

We only have the ability to maintain our own laws, not other country's

Black Menorca

ec18 wrote: »

Didn't the inquiry conclude that based on medical evidence available an abortion would have saved her?

Got a link to that?

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

The Constitution enshrines the right to travel.

Only for abortions, you can't travel to commit murder.

ec18

Black Menorca wrote: »

Go ahead and advocate for repealing the 8th. Give it your best shot, along with Averil, Ivana, Ruth and Claire.

Its just a shame it takes something like killing unborn babies that gets some people all interested in public affairs.

If you succeed you will be met with fierce opposition and the People will decide, again.

See you at the debate table then, I'm not looking forward to the half truths and misleading arguments that will crop up from bother sides of the argument. If this does come up it will be a very bitter and cynical campaign with some horribly graphic (and irrelevant) images from the anti choice side

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

At the moment no unborn baby has been intentionally killed in Ireland, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

Since the numbers have not been reported, nobody has evidence to the contrary.

But it is no longer against the law to kill "unborns".

Black Menorca

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Only for abortions, you can't travel to commit murder.

Correct, afaik.

Larbre34

Black Menorca wrote: »

At the moment no unborn baby has been intentionally killed in Ireland, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

I would regard that as very naive.

Leaving aside back street abortions and the morning after pill, Ive heard medical professionals talk about early term abortions in seriously ill women where the procedure is just part of overall necessary treatment. Obviously some clinicians refuse to go down that road and you get the cruel and inhumane violation of their oath where they direct very ill people travel to the UK for the procedure, a procedure that is often to improve their own chances of survival or to prevent catastrophic deformation in an infant due to other treatment they are receiving.

Zubeneschamali

ec18 wrote: »

Didn't the inquiry conclude that based on medical evidence available an abortion would have saved her?

They hedged with ifs and probablys, because no-one can say for certain, but yes. I quoted the report upthread.

keane2097

Black Menorca wrote: »

I fail to see the point of imprisoning women who have already been violent assaulted by an abortionist.

Do you think a woman who procures an abortion in Ireland should be punished?

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

We only have the ability to maintain our own laws, not other country's

But we will prosecute people who murder abroad. But not those who abort.

Because we all know the 8th is nonsense.

Black Menorca

ec18 wrote: »

See you at the debate table then,

And that is where I'll leave this discussion for now.

Its not a live issue and if FF/FG are the next government it will continue not to be.

I have other battles to fight.

If it seems the 8th may be in danger I'll be back.

Glenman

ec18 wrote: »

See you at the debate table then, I'm not looking forward to the half truths and misleading arguments that will crop up from bother sides of the argument. If this does come up it will be a very bitter and cynical campaign with some horribly graphic (and irrelevant) images from the anti choice side

Yes, Youth Defense for example do use very graphic images on some of their posters but these are just images from abortion procedures so if people don't like them then they shouldn't be pushing for abortion legislation.

Black Menorca

keane2097 wrote: »

Do you think a woman who procures an abortion in Ireland should be punished?

Listen Judge Judy, leave it til the debate becomes relevant.

For now, Ireland is abortion free. Embrace these times.

keane2097

Black Menorca wrote: »

Listen Judge Judy, leave it til the debate becomes relevant.

For now, Ireland is abortion free. Embrace these times.

Something about saying you wouldn't punish women who had an abortion abroad but you would punish women who had one in Ireland sticks in the craw I see. Fancy that.

c_man

Black Menorca wrote: »

Not a chance.

So what's the most likely outcome then, a GE with abortion as one of the main topics? I suppose we'd then need a referendum in the lifetime of the new government (if one committed to repealing the amendment were returned). I know this is an important issue but you can just imagine the country tearing itself apart over this. I don't for one second believe that the SSM result translates into widespread support for this but we'll see.

Huntergonzo

Black Menorca wrote: »

Baloney and shameful to boot. Hijacking Savita's deaht to peddle your agenda for abortion.

So basically you're going with the stick your fingers in your ears and repeat the same old tripe over and over again approach, this is nearly always the last refuge of someone with no leg to stand on.

I can see clearly you have no intentions of real debate here, you're spoken for, you want to see any number of women die in defence of a crazy amendment to our constitution just because it's conservative, it's frightening to know there's people like that out there.

I'll give you the last word, people like you get a hard on for the last word.

Black Menorca

keane2097 wrote: »

Something about saying you wouldn't punish women who had an abortion abroad but you would punish women who had one in Ireland sticks in the craw I see. Fancy that.

Why add more misery by imprisonment, on a woman already violated by an abortionist? I fail to see how society gains.

The abortionst however?????


I'll let that stew with you until this becomes relevant. :P

keane2097

Black Menorca wrote: »

Why add more misery by imprisonment, on a woman already violated by an abortionist? I fail to see how society gains.

The abortionst however?????


I'll let that stew with you until this becomes relevant. :P

Is that to say that you don't think a woman who procures an abortion in Ireland should be punished?

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

For now, Ireland is abortion free.

I'm sure you know some of these 158,000 women personally, but they are probably happy that you believe your own little story.

Zubeneschamali

c_man wrote: »

So what's the most likely outcome then

Labour will promise an amendment, and if they are in government, we'll get one, so maybe in 2020. Various other left wingers will be in favour. SF might be for it, or not, depending on which way the wind blows.

FG and FF will not campaign for it, and some TDs will campaign against. If MM has been ousted by the conservative wing, FF will be against.

Renua will be against, or Lucinda will have to leave her own party.

The campaign will make SSM look like a schools debate, with absolutely vile stuff from the No campaign.

Then the referendum will fail, 55-45.

fits

If its done, FG at least will have to allow a free vote among its members. Its very divisive.

No Voter And Proud

fits wrote: »

If its done, FG at least will have to allow a free vote among its members. Its very divisive.

SSM was also very divisive. Did they allow a free vote for that? (Genuine question, I dont know)

I can't see FG presiding over an abortion referendum anyway. Unless SF or Labour somehow become the majority part of a government this wont happen soon.

Not a NSA agent

Black Menorca wrote: »

No one is forced to have an abortion.

However Ireland has decided not to accommodate the killing of unborn babies. If then, the choice is made to go abroad, tragically there is nothing we can do.

But selling out to the abortion industry is not an option and hopefully never will be.

Ireland could control the "abortion industry" here, make abortion only available in hospitals. The way you prefer leads to women giving these industries money as they go abroad. Why do you want to support these industries?

ec18

Glenman wrote: »

Yes, Youth Defense for example do use very graphic images on some of their posters but these are just images from abortion procedures so if people don't like them then they shouldn't be pushing for abortion legislation.

Thats not exactly true, they are pictures from medical procedures. Having your appendix out (as will most invasive medical procedures) will produce some graphic images as but they are irrelevant to the debate on whether it should be allowed happen or not.

johnnyskeleton

Black Menorca wrote: »

Baloney and shameful to boot. Hijacking Savita's deaht to peddle your agenda for abortion.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95636302&postcount=157

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod: As a general rule, the more sensitive a subject the more temptation you might feel to use rhetoric, name calling etc.

Which is why in a thread like this I would ask everyone to be on their best behaviour

Don't make me tap the sign again

Not a NSA agent

Glenman wrote: »

Yes, Youth Defense for example do use very graphic images on some of their posters but these are just images from abortion procedures so if people don't like them then they shouldn't be pushing for abortion legislation.

Childbirth is also quite graphic. Have you ever seen surgery being done with an eye? Thats quite uncomfortable to watch. Will we not allow those? Good luck trying to stop childbirth!

PeteFalk78

I support abortions under certain conditions

-If the mothers life is in danger e.g. in the case of potential suicide (after stringent psychological analysis)
-If the childs life isnt viable
-In cases of rape

Probably 1 or 2 more I cannot think of.

I think abortion as a means of contraception is sickening.

am946745

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

Ireland could control the "abortion industry" here, make abortion only available in hospitals. The way you prefer leads to women giving these industries money as they go abroad. Why do you want to support these industries?

Many Many countries support unethical industries. Look at the arms trade.

We always hear the argument of the 0.001% of women who have terrible situations, that had lead to on demand abortion in the UK where you can have an abortion pretty much for whatever reason you like. Its become now the backup for birth control. Why would Marie Stopes pay its CEO 500K sterling?