System and contact/sensors for pre-wired house?

runswithascript

Hi

We had the opportunity to instal a WiFi alarm during our extension but opted instead to have every external window and door wired. Cat6 has also been ran to various points around the outside of the house where I would like to put CCTV some time in the future. Where the Cat6 cable runs back to inside the house is close to where the alarm cable runs to so if there was any advantage to doing so these could be connected.

Alarm requirements:

1. Reliable, respected brand.

2. Battery/UPS so it can operate if the main power is cut.

3. SMS and/or app notification when set off

4. SMS and/or app option to check on alarm, and reset it

5. If there is any advantage to integrating it with the CCTV system, that also. I would only be going with a CCTV system that comes with remote access anyway, so I am not sure what more an alarm system could offer in terms of that.

6. Anything I have not thought of?

Is it any cheaper to source the alarm from a provider or somewhere in the UK rather than a technician? If so, please recommend where.

Same question regarding contacts and sensors for 17 windows and doors (altogether). And should we be using combination contact/sensors or separate? Any particular brand?

I had thought to cut costs, if I could get these myself, I could wire them and just have the technician wire the panel and test the contacts/sensors.

What is a fair price to pay for labour to wire just the panel versus labour for wiring the panel and 17 contact/sensors?

KoolKid

1. Reliable, respected brand. Siemens

2. Battery/UPS so it can operate if the main power is cut. This is all standard on any system.

3. SMS and/or app notification when set off. Possible via a GSM dialler & Email notifications via SPC Connect. Apps & alerts are a free service on all Siemens IP panels.
There is more information on different apps & costs etc here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782

4. SMS and/or app option to check on alarm, and reset it. Remote control is possible via GSM text commands, via app & also via any web browser with Spcconnect.com

5. If there is any advantage to integrating it with the CCTV system, that also. I would only be going with a CCTV system that comes with remote access anyway, so I am not sure what more an alarm system could offer in terms of that.
I prefer to keep CCTV separate, however Siemens IP panels have the ability to take images from some IP cameras & integrate into the app.

6. Anything I have not thought of?
Wireless would be optional .
Integration of Smoke,Heat & CO2 detectors.
Option of touch screen keypads like these

Home automation integration.
Switch heating, gates, lights etc.
For sourcing see the suppliers sticky here
I have not found buying from the UK any cheaper for this product.

runswithascript

Thanks for the in depth reply.

KoolKid wrote: »

1. Reliable, respected brand. Siemens

I saw your reply late last night, and today read all the posts in the thread on Siemens versus HKC apps, including many of yours, without realising you were the same person who had replied to me here

From what I learned in that thread, and your recommendation here, I believe Siemens is the way to go. What do you think of the 5330, I am guessing that is an update on the SPC 4000 you linked? From the comparison of the different models available, that I made using rspl.web.ie and uk.spiap.com, I think the 5330 is the model for me. It is grade 3, which I understand to mean built to withstand 'intruders conversant with intruder alarm systems and that have access to a comprehensive range of tools', and it comes with an ethernet NIC which is great as I do not want any part of the alarm wireless. Am I right that the only difference between the 5330 and the 6330 is that the latter allows more zones/area/keypads etc, so is probably designed for industrial/corporate environments?

KoolKid wrote: »

2. Battery/UPS so it can operate if the main power is cut. This is all standard on any system.

Good to know.

KoolKid wrote: »

Possible via a GSM dialler & Email notifications via SPC Connect. Apps & alerts are a free service on all Siemens IP panels.
There is more information on different apps & costs etc here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782

That is the thread I went through today. It is very informative, and I have learned a lot from it, but I really, really need to give it a second read - perhaps even taking notes. I definitely want Internet notifications, be they email or another protocol, and GSM SMS notification. I like that with Siemens, as opposed to HKC, I do not have to pay for apps or a subscription. I understand SMS notifications will cost, what is the cheapest way, there was mention of €2 per month and international SIMs..

I may have misunderstood this, but am I correct that the Siemens app is not capable (at least not yet), of push notifications? Push notifications seem like a much better way to alert keyholders on their Android and iPhones than email, but I guess there must be apps out there where you can make certain Gmail label/filters trigger a push notification.

Can you also clarify if there is a way, when using a Siemens system, to receive notification when either the broadband connection or GSM coverage, or both, that are connected to it goes down, perhaps from some server in the cloud that normally receives updates from the on site alarm? If this has to cost, what is the cheapest way?

KoolKid wrote: »

Remote control is possible via GSM text commands, via app & also via any web browser with Spcconnect.com

I prefer to keep CCTV separate, however Siemens IP panels have the ability to take images from some IP cameras & integrate into the app.

All sounds good.

KoolKid wrote: »

Wireless would be optional.

Off the table for this install, including sensors/contacts, fobs, and receivers on the panel itself.

KoolKid wrote: »

Integration of Smoke,Heat & CO2 detectors.

KoolKid wrote: »

Home automation integration.
Switch heating, gates, lights etc.

All of this definitely interests me, I would like to put in something like a Nest thermostat at some point, but we have just had a lot of work done to the house and we have not budgeted for anything like that. I VERY MUCH like having the option for it in the future though.

KoolKid wrote: »

Option of touch screen keypads like these

That looks nice, but does it function any better than whatever the standard Siemens keypads are?

KoolKid wrote: »

For sourcing see the suppliers sticky here
I have not found buying from the UK any cheaper for this product.

Is there any benefit to sourcing the panel, PIRs, contact/sensors, bell, keypad, and sirens etc myself? Maybe reputable suppliers do not mark these components up? If you could advise specifically what contact/sensors (are combinations sensor contacts any use?) suit the 5330, what would you think about saving costs on labour by me installing them myself and then asking the installer to test them when he wires the panel and everything else? Maybe installers will not do that...

What is a rough reasonable install price (with and without installing the contacts/sensors myself) for a pre-wired bungalow (apart from PIR wiring which I will take the advice of the installer on) with 4 exterior doors (one is a big 4 panel sliding door), and 13 windows, 2 of those windows having 2 openings, 1 of those windows having 3 openings, 1 having none. Single storey.

I received a quote from a radio monitored company today that was much more expensive that I had thought it would be, and it also came with a monthly subscription. I like the idea that radio frequency cannot be blocked with a GSM jammer but I hate the thought of the recurring subscription! :pac: Thoughts?

KoolKid

dusf wrote: »

From what I learned in that thread, and your recommendation here, I believe Siemens is the way to go. What do you think of the 5330, I am guessing that is an update on the SPC 4000 you linked? From the comparison of the different models available, that I made using rspl.web.ie and uk.spiap.com, I think the 5330 is the model for me. It is grade 3, which I understand to mean built to withstand 'intruders conversant with intruder alarm systems and that have access to a comprehensive range of tools', and it comes with an ethernet NIC which is great as I do not want any part of the alarm wireless. Am I right that the only difference between the 5330 and the 6330 is that the latter allows more zones/area/keypads etc, so is probably designed for industrial/corporate environments?

The panel will be grade 3 but the system will only be grade 2 or grade 1 if not monitored. anyway.
The only difference between 4000,5000 & 6000 range is capacity.

dusf wrote: »

I definitely want Internet notifications, be they email or another protocol, and GSM SMS notification. I like that with Siemens, as opposed to HKC, I do not have to pay for apps or a subscription. I understand SMS notifications will cost, what is the cheapest way, there was mention of €2 per month and international SIMs..

To be honest most systems don't charge, HKC are the exception. SMS costs are really down to usage. If its only for text notification then a €5 or €10 top up will last a long time. Vodafone have a ready to go SIM that doesn't expire. But it appears hard to get in the stores , as many of their retail staff don't seem to be aware of it.

dusf wrote: »

I may have misunderstood this, but am I correct that the Siemens app is not capable (at least not yet), of push notifications? Push notifications seem like a much better way to alert keyholders on their Android and iPhones than email, but I guess there must be apps out there where you can make certain Gmail label/filters trigger a push notification.

All you have to do here is use a Gmail account. You will get a push notification instantly to that email.

dusf wrote: »

Can you also clarify if there is a way, when using a Siemens system, to receive notification when either the broadband connection or GSM coverage, or both, that are connected to it goes down, perhaps from some server in the cloud that normally receives updates from the on site alarm? If this has to cost, what is the cheapest way?

It can be done via a third party could server etc to notify you of missing polls. It could also be done with a central station monitoring account.
There is an update coming that will email notifications on network down. That will be free.
At the moment GSD have the best feature for this with smash & grab alerts & poll fail alerts pushed straight to your phone.

dusf wrote: »

All of this definitely interests me, I would like to put in something like a Nest thermostat at some point, but we have just had a lot of work done to the house and we have not budgeted for anything like that. I VERY MUCH like having the option for it in the future though.

For future proofing & external connectivity Siemens features beats them all IMO.

dusf wrote: »

That looks nice, but does it function any better than whatever the standard Siemens keypads are?

Just some extra programmable function keys.
A pace reader that can read fobs & contactless bank card etc.
Uploadable audio files .

dusf wrote: »

Is there any benefit to sourcing the panel, PIRs, contact/sensors, bell, keypad, and sirens etc myself? Maybe reputable suppliers do not mark these components up? If you could advise specifically what contact/sensors (are combinations sensor contacts any use?) suit the 5330, what would you think about saving costs on labour by me installing them myself and then asking the installer to test them when he wires the panel and everything else? Maybe installers will not do that...

If you are confident you can install the system to EN50131 standard then some installers will commission & certify it.

dusf wrote: »

I received a quote from a radio monitored company today that was much more expensive that I had thought it would be, and it also came with a monthly subscription. I like the idea that radio frequency cannot be blocked with a GSM jammer but I hate the thought of the recurring subscription! :pac: Thoughts?

Radio is going to be the most expensive. I wouldn't say 100% anything can't be blocked. GSM with 3 minute polling & duel paths would be another option.

altor

dusf wrote: »

Hi

We had the opportunity to instal a WiFi alarm during our extension but opted instead to have every external window and door wired. Cat6 has also been ran to various points around the outside of the house where I would like to put CCTV some time in the future. Where the Cat6 cable runs back to inside the house is close to where the alarm cable runs to so if there was any advantage to doing so these could be connected.

Alarm requirements:

1. Reliable, respected brand.

2. Battery/UPS so it can operate if the main power is cut.

3. SMS and/or app notification when set off

4. SMS and/or app option to check on alarm, and reset it

5. If there is any advantage to integrating it with the CCTV system, that also. I would only be going with a CCTV system that comes with remote access anyway, so I am not sure what more an alarm system could offer in terms of that.

6. Anything I have not thought of?

Is it any cheaper to source the alarm from a provider or somewhere in the UK rather than a technician? If so, please recommend where.

Same question regarding contacts and sensors for 17 windows and doors (altogether). And should we be using combination contact/sensors or separate? Any particular brand?

I had thought to cut costs, if I could get these myself, I could wire them and just have the technician wire the panel and test the contacts/sensors.

What is a fair price to pay for labour to wire just the panel versus labour for wiring the panel and 17 contact/sensors?

Wiring is always going to save on replacing batteries.
It is also cheaper than installing a full wire free system.
A back up battery is fitted as standard with any alarm system.
For CCTV you would have to specify you wanted a UPS fitted, there is nothing in the standard requiring an installer to have one fitted as standard.
Most systems on the market can have sms and App control.
Some do it differently from others but there is a thread here that gives a better insight over what they can do.
CCTV I would recommend keeping seperate from the alarm, most of the systems can have PIR camera to send a snap shot for alarm triggers if they see movement. This in conjunction with a CCTV system is a better option.

runswithascript

KoolKid wrote: »

The panel will be grade 3 but the system will only be grade 2 or grade 1 if not monitored. anyway.
The only difference between 4000,5000 & 6000 range is capacity.

4320 it is then! I found some threads where some suppliers were recommended, is there money to be saved ordering directly from REW or Northwood etc, or should I just let the installer source the kit?

KoolKid wrote: »

To be honest most systems don't charge, HKC are the exception. SMS costs are really down to usage. If its only for text notification then a €5 or €10 top up will last a long time. Vodafone have a ready to go SIM that doesn't expire. But it appears hard to get in the stores , as many of their retail staff don't seem to be aware of it.

Noted, I'll look into that.

KoolKid wrote: »

All you have to do here is use a Gmail account. You will get a push notification instantly to that email.

Yes, just I am frequently receiving emails on my Gmail account, and it is set up for push notification, I would like to make it so any email relating to the alarm really stands out. I am sure with Android there to create a separate push notification independent of the ones from Gmail, and who knows, perhaps even with iPhone. Having the SMS notification at the same time is also great.

KoolKid wrote: »

It can be done via a third party could server etc to notify you of missing polls.

How much does this cost? Can you recommend a provider specifically for this purpose, or is it just a software package you install on your own remote server if you have one? I know you can get virtual private servers for a few euros a month.

KoolKid wrote: »

It could also be done with a central station monitoring account.

I would prefer the alarm monitored, which I understand to be the same as central station monitoring, I just would not prefer it enough to pay €32 a month for the privilege. Can you recommend anywhere cheaper (GSM 3 minute polling you mentioned/radio) than €32 a month, and is central monitoring something you would recommend and/or use yourself?

KoolKid wrote: »

There is an update coming that will email notifications on network down. That will be free.

Cool.

KoolKid wrote: »

At the moment GSD have the best feature for this with smash & grab alerts & poll fail alerts pushed straight to your phone.

Yeah I read that in the other thread, but it still seemed like the Siemens was the best of the systems mentioned, apart from this feature. I understanding polling to be when somewhere remote 'pings' the alarm to make sure it is online. How would an alert for that ping (or poll) failing differ from a smash & grab - which I am guessing would knock the alarm off the wall etc..

KoolKid wrote: »

For future proofing & external connectivity Siemens features beats them all IMO.

So it would seem. We are discussing the monthly budget here, could you give us a very, very, very rough estimate considering the outline of the house in my previous post?

KoolKid wrote: »

Just some extra programmable function keys.
A pace reader that can read fobs & contactless bank card etc.
Uploadable audio files.

That all sounds great but is there much in the difference in price between that keypad and the standard Siemens one? I mean if it is only €20 more expensive great, but if much more than that could I install the standard and upgrade later?

KoolKid wrote: »

If you are confident you can install the system to EN50131 standard then some installers will commission & certify it.

Well considering I never knew of that standard before you mentioned it I am not very confident! What I am confident of is that if I saw one contact/sensor mounted and wired I could replicate same...

I mean, if I would not really be saving that much doing them myself relative to the total install cost, and there was a high risk the installer would have to redo them, or replace them with appropriate kit there does not seem much point...

KoolKid wrote: »

Radio is going to be the most expensive. I wouldn't say 100% anything can't be blocked. GSM with 3 minute polling & duel paths would be another option.

I am guessing by duel paths you mean the system using GSM in addition to broadband as interfaces. Can you tell me more about how 3 minute polling counters jamming? Also, consider that as the house is a bungalow the telephone cable comes into the house much lower than on a regular two storey house.

altor wrote: »

Wiring is always going to save on replacing batteries.
It is also cheaper than installing a full wire free system.

Yes, I can see it being a pain in the arse, but my main concern is what I have read about the vulnerabilities of wire free, missing or encryption equivalent to that of 1990 WiFI networks (I know the RF it is not 802.11), and that it is possible to sit away from a house and capture transmissions between sensors/contacts and fobs. I also work with a company that sells wire free services and it is just never as good as having something hardwired.

altor wrote: »

For CCTV you would have to specify you wanted a UPS fitted, there is nothing in the standard requiring an installer to have one fitted as standard.

Cool, good to know thanks, but considering I have the points around the perimetre of the house wired with Cat6 for CCTV, but I am not actually buying cameras for the moment, can you confirm there is no reason we cannot fit the UPS later?

altor wrote: »

Most systems on the market can have sms and App control.
Some do it differently from others but there is a thread here that gives a better insight over what they can do.

Saw that already, thanks, great thread.

altor wrote: »

CCTV I would recommend keeping seperate from the alarm, most of the systems can have PIR camera to send a snap shot for alarm triggers if they see movement. This in conjunction with a CCTV system is a better option.

Despite what I said about buying CCTV later, I would considering PIRs with built in cameras if they are not way more expensive... and if they are much more expensive, no reason I cannot upgrade regular PIRs to them later?

altor

dusf wrote: »

4320 it is then! I found some threads where some suppliers were recommended, is there money to be saved ordering directly from REW or Northwood etc, or should I just let the installer source the kit?

The equipment is always going to be cheaper if you purchase it yourself.
If you do a self install you will also save on installation.

dusf wrote: »

Yes, just I am frequently receiving emails on my Gmail account, and it is set up for push notification, I would like to make it so any email relating to the alarm really stands out. I am sure with Android there to create a separate push notification independent of the ones from Gmail, and who knows, perhaps even with iPhone. Having the SMS notification at the same time is also great.

A duel path is a must if in a bad area for 3 or 4G.
No point having the alarm sending push or an email if you have no signal to receive it.

dusf wrote: »

I would prefer the alarm monitored, which I understand to be the same as central station monitoring, I just would not prefer it enough to pay €32 a month for the privilege. Can you recommend anywhere cheaper (GSM 3 minute polling you mentioned/radio) than €32 a month, and is central monitoring something you would recommend and/or use yourself?

Dualcom look after polling your system. With 3 minute polling you wont know about it for 15 minutes as the system have to miss 5 polls in a row.
In most cases this is better than using a phone line to monitor your alarm as a phone line sends in one test call every 24 hours.

dusf wrote: »

Yeah I read that in the other thread, but it still seemed like the Siemens was the best of the systems mentioned, apart from this feature. I understanding polling to be when somewhere remote 'pings' the alarm to make sure it is online. How would an alert for that ping (or poll) failing differ from a smash & grab - which I am guessing would knock the alarm off the wall etc..

That is correct but with the Seimens your system is the server.
If that is taken out or if your internet is down the real world has no way of knowing, unless you try to get into your App of course.
You could do this by adding a second path to notify you of the path being down tho.

dusf wrote: »

Well considering I never knew of that standard before you mentioned it I am not very confident! What I am confident of is that if I saw one contact/sensor mounted and wired I could replicate same...

I mean, if I would not really be saving that much doing them myself relative to the total install cost, and there was a high risk the installer would have to redo them, or replace them with appropriate kit there does not seem much point...

My advice would be to price around and see what you get it installed professionally and self installed for if they are the both options you are looking at.

dusf wrote: »

I am guessing by duel paths you mean the system using GSM in addition to broadband as interfaces. Can you tell me more about how 3 minute polling counters jamming? Also, consider that as the house is a bungalow the telephone cable comes into the house much lower than on a regular two storey house.

It does not stop a jammer being used but will be noticed in 15 minutes using a dual com GSM. That is 5 missed polls in the 15 minutes to be flagged as a loss of signal. If you use a duel path they will try get in to the system on the second path.

dusf wrote: »

Yes, I can see it being a pain in the arse, but my main concern is what I have read about the vulnerabilities of wire free, missing or encryption equivalent to that of 1990 WiFI networks (I know the RF it is not 802.11), and that it is possible to sit away from a house and capture transmissions between sensors/contacts and fobs. I also work with a company that sells wire free services and it is just never as good as having something hardwired.

With wire free systems its more so how they use the signals and communicate with the sensors. Yes, older one way devices are more vulnerable as the system is dependent on the sensor sending the alarm/tamper signal to the control panel. If the signal is blocked it wont get to the panel. This is well known on older systems. With two way devices and the control equipment and sensors talk to each other, its the closest you will get to wired without using wires.

dusf wrote: »

Cool, good to know thanks, but considering I have the points around the perimetre of the house wired with Cat6 for CCTV, but I am not actually buying cameras for the moment, can you confirm there is no reason we cannot fit the UPS later?

A UPS can be fitted at anytime. Same with adding cameras to a system.

dusf wrote: »

Despite what I said about buying CCTV later, I would considering PIRs with built in cameras if they are not way more expensive... and if they are much more expensive, no reason I cannot upgrade regular PIRs to them later?

Yes, any device can be added to your system at a later date once you have the engineer code off the system.

KoolKid

dusf wrote: »

4320 it is then! I found some threads where some suppliers were recommended, is there money to be saved ordering directly from REW or Northwood etc, or should I just let the installer source the kit?

Many installers will insist on supplying their own equipment. Otherwise they cant honour guarantees .

dusf wrote: »

Noted, I'll look into that.

Good idea. Here is where there can be some savings made.

dusf wrote: »

Yes, just I am frequently receiving emails on my Gmail account, and it is set up for push notification, I would like to make it so any email relating to the alarm really stands out. I am sure with Android there to create a separate push notification independent of the ones from Gmail, and who knows, perhaps even with iPhone. Having the SMS notification at the same time is also great.

The simple option is to set up a separate email account with a distinctive email alert. There are also many options for email to text alerts.

dusf wrote: »

How much does this cost? Can you recommend a provider specifically for this purpose, or is it just a software package you install on your own remote server if you have one? I know you can get virtual private servers for a few euros a month.

There is some software you can run yourself or you could tie it in with a certain alarm monitoring packages.

dusf wrote: »

I would prefer the alarm monitored, which I understand to be the same as central station monitoring, I just would not prefer it enough to pay €32 a month for the privilege. Can you recommend anywhere cheaper (GSM 3 minute polling you mentioned/radio) than €32 a month, and is central monitoring something you would recommend and/or use yourself?

Monitoring at that level would be around that with a maintenance contract included. That would be an international SIM with all data & call charges included.

dusf wrote: »

Yeah I read that in the other thread, but it still seemed like the Siemens was the best of the systems mentioned, apart from this feature. I understanding polling to be when somewhere remote 'pings' the alarm to make sure it is online. How would an alert for that ping (or poll) failing differ from a smash & grab - which I am guessing would knock the alarm off the wall etc..

A network fail would just inform you your panel is off line, A smash and grab alert would be sent if the panel goes offline after an entry timer starting or following an alarm event.

dusf wrote: »

So it would seem. We are discussing the monthly budget here, could you give us a very, very, very rough estimate considering the outline of the house in my previous post?

Based on the property being pre wired with one standard keypad probably €1000-€1200 (very roughly)

dusf wrote: »

That all sounds great but is there much in the difference in price between that keypad and the standard Siemens one? I mean if it is only €20 more expensive great, but if much more than that could I install the standard and upgrade later?

As an upgrade in replacement of the standard one not too much more. (Some are not keen on too much pricing being posted here)
If you were to replace later would be a lot more

dusf wrote: »

I am guessing by duel paths you mean the system using GSM in addition to broadband as interfaces. Can you tell me more about how 3 minute polling counters jamming? Also, consider that as the house is a bungalow the telephone cable comes into the house much lower than on a regular two storey house.

Or it could be GSM backing up a land line.
With regular polls the station knows if a poll is missing. If the system is being jammed there will still be a full signal on the GSM as opposed to no signal if the network is down, also as its an international SIM it would switch to another network in the event of a provider outage.

dusf wrote: »

Yes, I can see it being a pain in the arse, but my main concern is what I have read about the vulnerabilities of wire free, missing or encryption equivalent to that of 1990 WiFI networks (I know the RF it is not 802.11), and that it is possible to sit away from a house and capture transmissions between sensors/contacts and fobs. I also work with a company that sells wire free services and it is just never as good as having something hardwired.

I would have no concerns re the security of current wireless alarm devices.

dusf wrote: »

Cool, good to know thanks, but considering I have the points around the perimetre of the house wired with Cat6 for CCTV, but I am not actually buying cameras for the moment, can you confirm there is no reason we cannot fit the UPS later?

A UPS could be added at any time to a system.

dusf wrote: »

Despite what I said about buying CCTV later, I would considering PIRs with built in cameras if they are not way more expensive... and if they are much more expensive, no reason I cannot upgrade regular PIRs to them later?

I am not a big fan of many of the PiR combined cameras. The Siemens SPC can handle many IP cameras & send images across the app. A dedicated system with a dedicated app is always way better.

runswithascript

Renovation/extension still dragging on so I have not had anyone out for a quote yet.

Is there any issue with the fact that all the velux windows, some in different rooms, are looped on a six core? Same with sliding doors, and two separate windows in large room.

KoolKid

No really it's still possible to split a 6 core up into a few seperate zones if you want to.