What would you like the next referendum to legalise abortion or euthanasia?

folamh

DareGod wrote: »

I think assisted suicide is much more important than abortion. People are living / slowly dying with horrendous pain, and our nation is forcing them to do so, threatening prison and legal action if they seek help for a peaceful end to their pain. It's absolutely barbaric and I'm tired of it being trivialised.

It is awful, but pregnancy, childbirth and involuntary parenthood aren't pain-free either. And in the third case, it affects you for a very long time, and in multiple domains (financial, social, etc).

shane7218

Blasphemy law needs to be removed immediately. It has no place in our constitution!

Eugene Norman

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Link? Most people pick a pedantic miscalculation as proof that they're wrong, no?

Here's the economist.

http://www.economist.com/node/5246700

It's all correlation anyway.

folamh

shane7218 wrote: »

Blasphemy law needs to be removed immediately. It has no place in our constitution!

I agree, but it's not as urgent as abortion and euthanasia. How has this law affected people's civil liberties in a practical sense, anyway? I've never heard of anyone coming into legal trouble for blaspheming. I do it all the time!

Eugene Norman

volchitsa wrote: »

I think you just gave away your age there, love. Best put your phone down now and get that homework finished!

Well you got the phone bit right. I'll give you that.

shane7218

folamh wrote: »

I agree, but it's not as urgent as abortion and euthanasia. How has this law affected people's civil liberties in a practical sense, anyway? I've never heard of anyone coming into legal trouble for blaspheming. I do it all the time!

I agree its not as urgent but never the less it needs to be removed. It should be part of the next referendum held in the country. Aside from the usual suspects (Iona Institute) I cant see any opposition to its removal.

thee glitz

Abortion is murder. It can only be morally defended on the grounds of saving a mother's life, and not on the basis of some spurious suicide risk.

I'm not a fan of euthanasia either but the reality is that there are people in great pain who seek it and those who assist shouldn't be criminalised.

shane7218

thee glitz wrote: »

Abortion is murder. It can only be morally defended on the grounds of saving a mother's life, and not on the basis of some spurious suicide risk.

I'm not a fan of euthanasia either but the reality is that there are people in great pain who seek it and those who assist shouldn't be criminalised.

Abortion is not murder, women travel all over the world to have abortions and it should be there choice not yours

volchitsa

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Well you got the phone bit right. I'll give you that.

So what's a third term then?

No Voter And Proud

shane7218 wrote: »

Abortion is not murder, women travel all over the world to have abortions and it should be there choice not yours

What do you call it then, infanticide?

volchitsa

thee glitz wrote: »

Abortion is murder. It can only be morally defended on the grounds of saving a mother's life, and not on the basis of some spurious suicide risk.

I'm not a fan of euthanasia either but the reality is that there are people in great pain who seek it and those who assist shouldn't be criminalised.

Removing article 40.3 from the constitution is not legalizing abortion. Abortion wasn't legal before that article was put in, was it?

Secondly, if abortion is murder, how on earth is euthanasia not murder?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

What do you call it then, infanticide?

Abortion, usually. Clue's right there in the fact that it's the word for it.

Eutow

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I don't see the need to allow abortion anyway.
We've got transport to the UK for the unmentionables that would do that to a child, and for the rest of us there's Ireland.

The Catholic indoctrination is strong in this one. The word in bold is exactly how the church saw a child born out of wedlock. All that caring for the unborn, but if a child is born to an unmarried mother, suddenly the church thinks that child is undeserving.

Anyway, yes to getting rid of the 8th and yes to euthanasia.

shane7218

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

What do you call it then, infanticide?

Do you not think if a 16 year old girl is raped she should be entitled to an abortion? I mean a fetus doesen't even have a heart until 5 weeks into a pregnancy.

No Voter And Proud

shane7218 wrote: »

Do you not think if a 16 year old girl is raped she should be entitled to an abortion? I mean a fetus doesen't even have a heart until 5 weeks into a pregnancy.

A 16 year old girl cannot legally consent to an abortion anyway, as she is below the age at which she can legally enter into a contract.

eviltwin

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I don't see the need to allow abortion anyway.
We've got transport to the UK for the unmentionables that would do that to a child, and for the rest of us there's Ireland.

Those WOMEN are women you know, women like your mother, sister, girlfriend, women you work with, women you socialise with.

eviltwin

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

A 16 year old girl cannot legally consent to an abortion anyway, as she is below the age at which she can legally enter into a contract.

16 is the age at which a child/teen can make their own medical decisions.

No Voter And Proud

Sydney Chilly Magnate wrote: »

Abortion, usually. Clue's right there in the fact that it's the word for it.

Yes but he said it wasnt murder - which it clearly is. Especially in the second and third trimester. A viable child is being killed. Or "Aborted"

shane7218

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

A 16 year old girl cannot legally consent to an abortion anyway, as she is below the age at which she can legally enter into a contract.

You didnt answer my question. Do you think its fair that she be forced to carry a child ?

No Voter And Proud

eviltwin wrote: »

Those WOMEN are women you know, women like your mother, sister, girlfriend, women you work with, women you socialise with.

No woman I would socialise with would have an abortion so thats a moot point.

eviltwin

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Yes but he said it wasnt murder - which it clearly is. Especially in the second and third trimester. A viable child is being killed. Or "Aborted"

so if abortion is murder why is it that even here where its illegal its not called murder or treated in the legal system as murder then

eviltwin

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

No woman I would socialise with would have an abortion so thats a moot point.

How would you know? You don't strike me as the kind of person many women in that situation would open up to...

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Yes but he said it wasnt murder - which it clearly is. Especially in the second and third trimester. A viable child is being killed. Or "Aborted"

Except it clearly isn't, unless you pretend that the blindingly obvious differences between a foetus and an adult are less important than the fact that they're both from the same species. If you kill a chimpanzee is it 97% murder, or is it something else?

I'd like to see as few late term abortions as possible, Ireland's current abortion legislation means that more late term abortions will be carried out on Irish soil.

No Voter And Proud

eviltwin wrote: »

so if abortion is murder why is it that even here where its illegal its not called murder or treated in the legal system as murder then

It is treated as murder in the legal system here. Ask any doctor.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

No woman I would socialise with would have an abortion so thats a moot point.

You do know a woman who's had an abortion. It is pretty much statistically impossible that you don't.

longshanks

The next referendum should ban noisey ice cream trucks.

eviltwin

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

It is treated as murder in the legal system here. Ask any doctor.

No its not. :rolleyes:

RayM

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

It is treated as murder in the legal system here. Ask any doctor.

Which is exactly why our laws need to be brought in line with the rest of the civilised world.

thee glitz

shane7218 wrote: »

Abortion is not murder, women travel all over the world to have abortions and it should be there choice not yours

Women travel all over the world to smuggle drugs and it's their choice to do that too. that doesnt make it a morally solid action.

Sure it'd be great if we opened up abortionplexes all over the country, billed the state, and there was never an unwanted pregnancy ever again. The only problem is that it involves taking an innocent, defenceless life.

shane7218

thee glitz wrote: »

Women travel all over the world to smuggle drugs and it's their choice to do that too. that doesnt make it a morally solid action.

Sure it'd be great if we opened up abortionplexes all over the country, billed the state, and there was never an unwanted pregnancy ever again. The only problem is that it involves taking an innocent, defenceless life.

Smuggling drugs is Illegal, there is a difference

sunshine and showers

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

It is treated as murder in the legal system here. Ask any doctor.

I prefer to ask lawyers for legal advice, tbh. :rolleyes:

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

thee glitz wrote: »

Women travel all over the world to smuggle drugs and it's their choice to do that too. that doesnt make it a morally solid action.

Sure it'd be great if we opened up abortionplexes all over the country, billed the state, and there was never an unwanted pregnancy ever again. The only problem is that it involves taking an innocent, defenceless life.

So do you think we should remove the freedom to travel to have an abortion? Or prosecute women on their return?

fiachr_a

Multiple mixed-marriages for people under 35 please.

eviltwin

thee glitz wrote: »

Women travel all over the world to smuggle drugs and it's their choice to do that too. that doesnt make it a morally solid action.

Sure it'd be great if we opened up abortionplexes all over the country, billed the state, and there was never an unwanted pregnancy ever again. The only problem is that it involves taking an innocent, defenceless life.

You can't really police what people do outside of the country, you can stop them doing it here if its illegal. I'd imagine any woman who comes into Ireland with drugs will face the full rigors of the law, I don't think any woman who has an abortion, even here on Irish soil, will be prosecuted. I know there is a 14 yr prison term written into the 8th but that's been clarified its to deal with back street abortionists who might put women at risk rather than to prosecute women who have abortions.

FouxDaFaFa

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Pregnancy not being viable and a danger to the mother are both provided for in our existing abortion laws. Not that I agree with them mind. As a practising christian I cannot see how killing any of Gods creations is within my remit.

I know you're having fun and everything but the bolded bit is untrue.

If the pregnancy is not viable, the parents are sent away to play the waiting game or they go to england at their own expense, often struggling to get the remains back into Ireland.

And the danger to the mother thing, only if she is at immediate risk of death. Not just very sick or that there's a chance she might die. Immediate risk of death. There's a condition that runs in my family that makes pregnancy extremely dangerous and if I were to be hospitalised during a pregnancy, I would have to wait until I was dying to get an abortion.

frostyjacks

RayM wrote: »

Which is exactly why our laws need to be brought in line with the rest of the civilised world.

I can't think of anything more civilised than giving a voice to children not yet born.

thee glitz

Sydney Chilly Magnate wrote: »

So do you think we should remove the freedom to travel to have an abortion? Or prosecute women on their return?

I'm not in favour of abortion in any country but it's Ireland where it would concern me. I'm not for prosecuting women on their return and would support anyone who travelled and regretted it. It's a pity England is so accessible like that but that's their own business.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

I know you're having fun and everything but the bolded bit is untrue.

If the pregnancy is not viable, the parents are sent away to play the waiting game or they go to england at their own expense, often struggling to get the remains back into Ireland.

I remember hearing a man speaking on the radio about how he and his wife had travelled to the UK to have an unviable pregnancy terminated. The only way to get the remains back to Ireland was by courier. I'll never forget hearing him describe how he opened the door to the courier (who was unaware of the contents of the package) and having to hurry him out because his wife started screaming with grief when she saw him up the drive.

Love them both my ARSE

Kells1

I cant believe after going through a referendum on "equality" that people want to take away the rights to life of the unborn child. What hypocrites !!!

folamh

frostyjacks wrote: »

I can't think of anything more civilised than giving a voice to children not yet born.

Then you ought oppose contraception and male masturbation. Synaptic connections necessary to support consciousness emerge at twenty weeks. An early abortion doesn't kill anyone. Early fetuses aren't even individuals, much less persons.

eviltwin

Kells1 wrote: »

I cant believe after going through a referendum on "equality" that people want to take away the rights to life of the unborn child. What hypocrites !!!

Its giving rights to women over their own bodies and what they choose to do with unwanted pregnancies. As a woman I want my choices to be put ahead of those of a foetus. I think that's the least I deserve.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

thee glitz wrote: »

I'm not in favour of abortion in any country but it's Ireland where it would concern me. I'm not for prosecuting women on their return and would support anyone who travelled and regretted it. It's a pity England is so accessible like that but that's their own business.

Would you not prosecute someone who brought a six year old to UK and murdered them? If not, why not. What's the difference if abortion is murder?
What would be wrong with mandatory pregnancy tests for any woman of childbearing age leaving the country, especially going to Manchester/Liverpool?

fattymuatty

Kells1 wrote: »

I cant believe after going through a referendum on "equality" that people want to take away the rights to life of the unborn child. What hypocrites !!!

And what about women? What about our right to equality?

Eutow

Kells1 wrote: »

I cant believe after going through a referendum on "equality" that people want to take away the rights to life of the unborn child. What hypocrites !!!

Why should a foetus have the same rights as somebody that has actually been born? If it is the choice between saving the mother's life or that of the foetus she is carrying there should be only one decision. So, making that decision proves one has more rights than the other.

sunshine and showers

I can't believe that after a referendum on equality, we continue to afford a foetus the same rights as the living, breathing woman carrying it, denying her of her right to bodily autonomy. Women are not vessels, here to carry foetuses about to ease your moral guilt over something that isn't even your business.

thee glitz

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't think any woman who has an abortion, even here on Irish soil, will be prosecuted. I know there is a 14 yr prison term written into the 8th but that's been clarified its to deal with back street abortionists who ūmight put women at risk rather than to prosecute women who have abortions

Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

thee glitz wrote: »

Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.

It is. Not everybody can get the money together in time to travel, especially the very young.

sunshine and showers

thee glitz wrote: »

Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.

Are you hopelessly naive or what? Of course it's a "thing" here.

eviltwin

thee glitz wrote: »

Well... they probably should be but each case would be unique. It's good that's legislation to deal with back street abortionists, hopefully that's not an actual thing here.

Are you seriously saying you think women who have abortions should "probably" be in prison? What would that achieve?

The DIY abortion is still happening, its just happening at home with pills bought online or concoctions created after a web search.

folamh

I like Carl Sagan's essay on the ethics of abortion:

"Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the origin of the Earth, 4.6 billion years ago. Nor does human life begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain dating back to the origin of our species, hundreds of thousands of years ago. Every human sperm and egg is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, alive. They are not human beings, of course. However, it could be argued that neither is a fertilized egg."

http://2think.org/sagan_abortion.shtml