Cockapoos???

Jamie24

What are cockapoo a like? I've seen them on advertisements but I've never actually seen one. What are they like, cocker spaniel or more like a poodle. Are they a good pet.

kylith

They're a total crap shoot, like any mongrel. They could be the size of a poodle or a cocker. They could have any type of coat. They are bred by people looking to make money off of the current fashion for mongrels with cute names.

VonVix

They're just an expensive mutt. They seem to be the mark of a puppy farmer at the moment. Breeding two pedigree dogs doesn't make one single type of mix (in appearance or characteristics), they can take from either dog breed. I wouldn't go near anyone selling one of these. I wouldn't go near anyone selling poodle mixes at all, they're just people trying to cash in on a trend.

If you're looking for a dog you'd be better off either going for a straight up Cocker Spaniel or a straight up Toy/Miniature/Standard Poodle. At least you'll have a better idea of the dog you are getting plus you will be able to find a reputable breeder.

Pumpkinseeds

They're puppy farm dogs.

Dubl07

There are breeders of pedigree dogs who are responsible and others who are not. So asking about a specific cross shouldn't be frowned upon.

With a cross-breed, you don't know entirely what a dog might be like but if both parents are properly health-checked it's not a total shot in the dark. Insist on seeing the parents in the home if you're getting a pup, look carefully at the home environment and at the dog's vaccination record. Google the vet's name and phone him/her to verify that the record is kosher. Be aware that an F1 (pedigree cocker-pedigree poodle), F1b (F1-pedigree cocker or poodle) and F2 (F1-F1) will all have different characteristics, with F2 being least predictable. My friend adopted an accidental cockapoo 12 years ago and he was a head-case for years. Very affectionate, medium-shedding and smart but high energy (too energetic for his first owners) and needed professional grooming once a month since she didn't groom him at home quite often enough.

Pounds get crosses in from people who didn't give proper consideration to the time and expense dog ownership entails. They are definitely worth looking into although they have so few resources that it can be difficult to find out what dogs are available unless you keep visiting over a period of time. Rescues have more social media presence, although rescues in Ireland who I contacted (or deigned to reply to me) had rules, restrictions and retained ownership of any 'adopted' dog to the extent that I felt that route was not for me. I want to make informed decisions on behalf of my dog rather than be obliged to neuter at 6 months for example. You may have a different experience and it's definitely worth investigating.

If you'd really like to know more about cockapoos, join a few Facebook groups and ask questions there about temperament, grooming, feeding, exercise requirements, common ailments. Such groups often have individuals who have to rehome their perfectly wonderful dog due to circumstances that have nothing to do with the dog itself.

Finally, why does a cockapoo interest you and are you really ready for your own dog? You're quite young and might be off to college or a new job soon. Having a dog in tow will severely restrict your accommodation options. Be aware that dog ownership is a very long-term commitment. Dogs remain much more dependent over a decade or more than a baby would be and deciding to buy or adopt a dog of any breed should be given a lot of consideration and if you're living at home everyone should be on board.

hollytrees

I have a cockapoo, she's adorable. She is 4 now. I've never met a fully bred poodle so can't comment on their personality but we had a cocker when I was young and she was hyper.

I agree with the other posters about cockapoos being puppy farm dogs, mine is a rescue in that family who had her were emigrating so I took her. She has the most pleasant personality and is fairly lazy. I know someone who had one and he was completely hyper and jealous so it just depends, you can be lucky or unlucky.

The only negative is that she has problems with ears which I think is common with spaniels.

Rips

hollytrees wrote: »

The only negative is that she has problems with ears which I think is common with spaniels.

Yeah, and poodles! :pac:

aisling2383

Jamie24 wrote: »

What are cockapoo a like? I've seen them on advertisements but I've never actually seen one. What are they like, cocker spaniel or more like a poodle. Are they a good pet.

I would like to inform you that I myself own a cockapoo. They are such lovely pets and they have the best personality you could wish for in a dog. If you are planning on buying a cockapoo, try to avoid buying one from a puppy farm, as they are not kind to the animals. The website that I found the breeder for my cockapoo was the cockapoo club gb, I live in Ireland, but I found it a fun family trip to go to collect our little angel. I am sure that there are reputable breeders in Ireland for cockapoos, but we wanted to be sure that our cockapoo would grow up to be a happy and healthy dog, with no health problems. If anyone came up to me and asked what type of dog should they get, I would immediately say to get a cockapoo.
They are pretty much an even mixture of cocker spaniel and poodle. They have a poodle coat and body, but their face and ears are like a cocker. They have characteristics of both breeds of dogs, they love the water, which takes after both cocker spaniel and poodle, and they love adventure and the outdoors. My cockapoo rose a pheasant the other day, even though he has not been trained to do so! They need a lot of exercise, so you will have to like walking! We bought a lot of Kong toys for our cockapoo, and he loves them. But, his favourite thing in the whole world is the ball!! If you say the word "ball" to our fella, he will go mental! So, if you have a wide open field near your home, that would be a great place to throw it, and the beach is also a great location! I hope that this will help you while you are on the road to try and find a new family member! ;-)

aisling2383

kylith wrote: »

They're a total crap shoot, like any mongrel. They could be the size of a poodle or a cocker. They could have any type of coat. They are bred by people looking to make money off of the current fashion for mongrels with cute names.

I am very sorry, but I strongly disagree with you. That is such a horrible comment to make, and I am sure that you have NO idea what you are talking about. Cockapoos are my favourite breed of dog, and you should not undermine them. I own two mongrels, and I would never buy a pure breed dog ever again. They are too much work, as they are more prone to sickness etc. My cockapoo is the best dog anyone could wish for, and he is a brilliant family pet. My dog has a lovely, soft coat. The breeder of my cockapoo has been breeding them for over 15 years.
If you do not own a cockapoo, you have no right to make nasty comments about them, so I suggest that you delete the original comment that you wrote.

Pumpkinseeds

Some people are a puppy farmers dream come true.:rolleyes:

aisling2383

kylith wrote: »

They're a total crap shoot, like any mongrel. They could be the size of a poodle or a cocker. They could have any type of coat. They are bred by people looking to make money off of the current fashion for mongrels with cute names.

If you are a dog lover yourself, you will know that it does not matter what the dog looks like, you will love them for their personality and not their looks. But, judging by the horrible comment you wrote, you have not got a clue about dogs, and that you don't love them. I am actually really angry writing this, and I couldn't let all of my anger out in the first comment that I wrote.

Nody

aisling2383 wrote: »

I would like to inform you that I myself own a cockapoo. They are such lovely pets and they have the best personality you could wish for in a dog. If you are planning on buying a cockapoo, try to avoid buying one from a puppy farm, as they are not kind to the animals. The website that I found the breeder for my cockapoo was the cockapoo club gb, I live in Ireland, but I found it a fun family trip to go to collect our little angel.

Sorry but there is no Cockapoo breed; hence any club or breeder are by definition backyard breeders of mongrels and nothing else.

I am sure that there are reputable breeders in Ireland for cockapoos, but we wanted to be sure that our cockapoo would grow up to be a happy and healthy dog, with no health problems. If anyone came up to me and asked what type of dog should they get, I would immediately say to get a cockapoo.

And did you ask what health and genetic checks had been performed for the mongrel in hard copy? Do you have the knowledge to know what the breed specific issues are in both breeds (since it can pick up issues from both lines)?

DeVore

My sister has a cockapoo. As others have said he's bouncy, happy, friendly, excitable. Doesn't shed much but then she has him groomed like every fortnight or at least every month.

All that said, you could probably say those things about just about any dog who is well treated from puppyhood. Dogs are predominantly predisposed to being friendly and happy. Yes, some make better pets than others on the whole, but I wouldn't personally get a dog because of its breed (or pseudo-breed) beyond fitting the breeds exercise requirements to your lifestyle. Dogs are like people, the ones that are brought up mean, stay mean. The ones who have a stable home life tend to be relaxed and well behaved.

Kovu

aisling2383 wrote: »

They are pretty much an even mixture of cocker spaniel and poodle. They have a poodle coat and body, but their face and ears are like a cocker.

Yours may look to be an even mix but they can have vast differences as they are not a breed, thus the pups can take after the mother or father and vary widely in size/coat/shape.

aisling2383 wrote: »

Cockapoos are my favourite breed of dog.

Again they are not a recognised breed, they are a mongrel cross.

muddypaws

aisling2383 wrote: »

I am very sorry, but I strongly disagree with you. That is such a horrible comment to make, and I am sure that you have NO idea what you are talking about. Cockapoos are my favourite breed of dog, and you should not undermine them. I own two mongrels, and I would never buy a pure breed dog ever again. They are too much work, as they are more prone to sickness etc. My cockapoo is the best dog anyone could wish for, and he is a brilliant family pet. My dog has a lovely, soft coat. The breeder of my cockapoo has been breeding them for over 15 years.
If you do not own a cockapoo, you have no right to make nasty comments about them, so I suggest that you delete the original comment that you wrote.

I'm not sure if you've misunderstood what the poster means when saying 'its a crapshoot'? It means that you have no idea what you're going to get, its a gamble, putting two different breeds together, you could get completely different pups in the same litter.

Can you post any links to evidence that pure breeds are more prone to sickness than cross breeds please, as it is something that is often said, but never proved.

Do you know why your breeder started crossing the two breeds? Not having a go, genuinely interested to know why someone would do it.

ShaShaBear

I'd be very inclined to think someone is having a laugh.

When a human mother and father have a family, all of the children are different. Even vastly so.
When a canine mother and father have a litter, and they are of two different breeds, the pups will all be different. Because each pup takes different genes from both parents. If all the pups took the same genes, they would be clones. Dogs do not give birth to clones, so this is nonsense. Poodles and cocker spaniels do not have the same coat, so a pup can have one, the other or a mix of both. It will not be the same every time.
No one should have to delete a comment on that, as many of us here are extremely knowledgeable on dogs and science.
When you roll two dice, will they both give you the same number every time? Of course not.

andreac

Cockapoos are not a breed. They are mongrels. Only puppy farmers or back yard breeders breed them so they should be avoided at all costs.

mosi

muddypaws wrote: »

I'm not sure if you've misunderstood what the poster means when saying 'its a crapshoot'? It means that you have no idea what you're going to get, its a gamble, putting two different breeds together, you could get completely different pups in the same litter.

I was just going post this myself! Crapshoot is exactly that, an unpredictable throw of a dice with a completely unknown outcome.

I saw a documentary a while back that featured a woman who had allowed her poodle to be used for stud to create various noodles/doodles/schnoodles etc. They showed two of his offspring from the same litter with a Labrador bitch. One looked like how people imagine "Labradoodles" to look, while the other looked like a pure Labrador. There is simply no predicting what looks or personality traits will be inherited.

I don't disagree that some of these crossbreeds can be utterly adorable...and the backyard breeders/puppy farmers who breed them know this all too well. Yes, there are irresponsible breeders of pedigree dogs too. However, with these designer crossbreeds, there can be no doubt that the breeder is irresponsible. If you want a crossbreed, don't buy one, you'll find plenty in your local pound or rescue. Otherwise you'll just be lining the pockets of puppy farmers and BYBs who are only in it for the money.

DBB

If you do not own a cockapoo, you have no right to make nasty comments about them, so I suggest that you delete the original comment that you wrote.

I would suggest that you do not back-seat moderate. In this instance, try to dictate what others can and cannot write in this forum.
You may vehemently disagree with kylith's view (and I think you've taken overboard offence at the word "crapshoot", which is explained above) but it is a common, and in Ireland at any rate, not unfounded opinion, which it appears you have some degree of tacit support for, in that If Ireland's designer crossbreed breeders were any good, I'm quite sure you yourself would not have felt the need to go to the UK for one.
Also, do not attempt to tell anyone in the A&PI forum that they know nothing about "x" breed or species. Speaking in such a way to other posters is simply not tolerated here:

But, judging by the horrible comment you wrote, you have not got a clue about dogs, and that you don't love them.

You are entitled to disagree with one another, but you must do so respectfully, and without breaking any forum rules (e.g. back-seat moderating).

Do no reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

Edited to add: In the same vein Shashabear, please don't accuse people of "knowing nothing", it is very inflammatory:

If you genuinely believe that mixing the genetics of two different dog breeds results in the same pup every time, you know nothing about dogs or science.

Dubl07

Adversarial or aggressive "advice" about pound dogs and rescue dogs is not the way to benefit abandoned or surrendered animals in the longer term. It may be a popular stance among militants at the moment but so is vegetarianism and I wouldn't like to see our countryside if animals were no longer farmed for meat. Different people will have different viewpoints. The OP asked about cocker/poodle crosses. If the pups are genuine F1 hybrids coming from health-checked parents they will likely conform to type as much as a pedigree-pedigree breeding.

Responsible domestic owners of such hybrids will spay or neuter their F1's at an appropriate age or will prevent them from breeding by other means, just as responsible domestic owners of pedigrees and/or Heinz 57's will. As for irresponsible owners, pedigree dogs of popular breeds also have backyard breeders and puppy farmers but the owners of poodle or bichon crosses seem to be a particular target for the adopt or perish brigade at the moment. It seems to be assumed that anyone seeking such a pup deserves criticism rather than helpful advice.

However, stasis is stagnant and the practice of developing new breeds of domestic animals via cross-breeding is as old as the hills.

Golden retriever owners for example are lucky that their particular crossings are old enough and stable enough that few will snipe at their choice of dog today yet 200 years ago that breed didn't exist. Additionally, since the phenotypes of many other "pedigree breeds" have changed drastically over the last 50 years (German Shepherds, anyone?) a pedigree certificate is not, in isolation, a guarantee of health or temperament.

Instead of criticising would-be owners with an interest in cockapoo or similar dogs, perhaps it would be better for ethical Irish breeders to meet the demonstrated demand with healthy pups and to institute a breeding programme to develop healthy lines which will breed true. Just as happened with Goldens.

Pumpkinseeds

I'm fascinated by the use of the word 'hybrid' being bandied about in a thread on what is basically a puppy farm dog. A dog isn't a hybrid of anything, they're dogs, whether pure breed or mongrel. I think that using words like 'hybrid' is a sneaky way of saying mongrel, without actually acknowledging that a dog is not a recognised pedigree dog, despite the customer paying the price for what they'd mistakenly perceive to be a pedigree dog.

Dubl07

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I'm fascinated by the use of the word 'hybrid' being bandied about in a thread on what is basically a puppy farm dog. A dog isn't a hybrid of anything, they're dogs, whether pure breed or mongrel. I think that using words like 'hybrid' is a sneaky way of saying mongrel, without actually acknowledging that a dog is not a recognised pedigree dog, despite the customer paying the price for what they'd mistakenly perceive to be a pedigree dog.

Two different apple trees make a hybrid. Two different breeds of dog also make a hybrid. F1 hybrid is a valid term for such a cross. Any gardener knows that F1 hybrids will not breed true and that it takes years of selective breeding for selective traits to gain genetic stability.

muddypaws

Dubl07 wrote: »

Adversarial or aggressive "advice" about pound dogs and rescue dogs is not the way to benefit abandoned or surrendered animals in the longer term. It may be a popular stance among militants at the moment but so is vegetarianism and I wouldn't like to see our countryside if animals were no longer farmed for meat. Different people will have different viewpoints. The OP asked about cocker/poodle crosses. If the pups are genuine F1 hybrids coming from health-checked parents they will likely conform to type as much as a pedigree-pedigree breeding.

The problem is, no reputable breeder of cockers or poodles will allow them to be used in this way, so there will be no genetic health testing. You said in an earlier post that the parents vaccination record should be checked, that isn't health testing.

Pumpkinseeds

Dubl07 wrote: »

Two different apple trees make a hybrid. Two different breeds of dog also make a hybrid. F1 hybrid is a valid term for such a cross. Any gardener knows that F1 hybrids will not breed true and that it takes years of selective breeding for selective traits to gain genetic stability.

There's a world of difference between apple growing and puppy farming. Reputable breeders don't mix breeds.

Dubl07

muddypaws wrote: »

The problem is, no reputable breeder of cockers or poodles will allow them to be used in this way, so there will be no genetic health testing. You said in an earlier post that the parents vaccination record should be checked, that isn't health testing.

I agree with you entirely but a vet-check seems to be the norm here rather than genetic testing for a lot of pedigrees. Why not have a level playing field for pedigrees and hybrids and ramp up the checking criteria for all breeding pairs? (And the pedigree parents can be gene tested regardless of what creature they'll be bred to, afaik.)

The IKC rules seem to dictate that owners shouldn't breed cockers and poodles or similar pairings together. I fail to see why when such a combination of compatible dogs can result in healthy, happy companion animals. Back to the Goldens again, Muddy. Even Rotties only have a breed standard of a little over 100 years and they've changed quite a bit in the interim, have they not?

Dubl07

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I'm fascinated by the use of the word 'hybrid' being bandied about in a thread on what is basically a puppy farm dog. A dog isn't a hybrid of anything, they're dogs, whether pure breed or mongrel. I think that using words like 'hybrid' is a sneaky way of saying mongrel, without actually acknowledging that a dog is not a recognised pedigree dog, despite the customer paying the price for what they'd mistakenly perceive to be a pedigree dog.

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

There's a world of difference between apple growing and puppy farming. Reputable breeders don't mix breeds.

IKC breeders aren't permitted to mix breeds. Nonetheless such a mix is validly termed a hybrid. It is in no way sneaky to term it such and in fact it is informative when added to a name combining both breed-terms.

muddypaws

Dubl07 wrote: »

I agree with you entirely but a vet-check seems to be the norm here rather than genetic testing for a lot of pedigrees. Why not have a level playing field for pedigrees and hybrids and ramp up the checking criteria for all breeding pairs? (And the pedigree parents can be gene tested regardless of what creature they'll be bred to, afaik.)

The IKC rules seem to dictate that owners shouldn't breed cockers and poodles or similar pairings together. I fail to see why when such a combination of compatible dogs can result in healthy, happy companion animals. Back to the Goldens again, Muddy. Even Rotties only have a breed standard of a little over 100 years and they've changed quite a bit in the interim, have they not?

I don't know where it is the norm. It certainly isn't with reputable, responsible breeders. When I talk about reputable breeders, that is who I mean, those that do genetic health testing, good socialisation of pups and sell the pups with a contract that states they will take the dog back at any time in its life if necessary. Anyone else is a puppy farmer or byb and shouldn't be entertained.

No idea about rotties, sorry.

borderlinemeath

Dubl07 wrote: »

Adversarial or aggressive "advice" about pound dogs and rescue dogs is not the way to benefit abandoned or surrendered animals in the longer term. It may be a popular stance among militants at the moment but so is vegetarianism and I wouldn't like to see our countryside if animals were no longer farmed for meat. Different people will have different viewpoints. The OP asked about cocker/poodle crosses. If the pups are genuine F1 hybrids coming from health-checked parents they will likely conform to type as much as a pedigree-pedigree breeding.

Some people have set ideas about rescue dogs, that they're somehow damaged goods, and were given up for good reason. Same people would be adamant about getting a puppy and will go for crosses of breeds for no reason other than they may be cute, or the right size, They barely have a notion for temperament. There's a reason that plenty of cockers are given up, because people can't cope with their drive or temperament.

Responsible domestic owners of such hybrids will spay or neuter their F1's at an appropriate age or will prevent them from breeding by other means, just as responsible domestic owners of pedigrees and/or Heinz 57's will. As for irresponsible owners, pedigree dogs of popular breeds also have backyard breeders and puppy farmers but the owners of poodle or bichon crosses seem to be a particular target for the adopt or perish brigade at the moment. It seems to be assumed that anyone seeking such a pup deserves criticism rather than helpful advice.

I don't think they deserve criticism, but certainly need to be educated about the type of people that will breed these crosses. They are a target market for puppy farmers and back yard breeders.

However, stasis is stagnant and the practice of developing new breeds of domestic animals via cross-breeding is as old as the hills.

Golden retriever owners for example are lucky that their particular crossings are old enough and stable enough that few will snipe at their choice of dog today yet 200 years ago that breed didn't exist. Additionally, since the phenotypes of many other "pedigree breeds" have changed drastically over the last 50 years (German Shepherds, anyone?) a pedigree certificate is not, in isolation, a guarantee of health or temperament.

There is a massive difference between dogs that were developed 200 years ago and the dogs of today. 200 years ago dogs were bred for purpose, GRs were for retrieving game, Shepherds were for guarding flocks. Cockerpoos etc are for making money for scrupulous breeders.

Instead of criticising would-be owners with an interest in cockapoo or similar dogs, perhaps it would be better for ethical Irish breeders to meet the demonstrated demand with healthy pups and to institute a breeding programme to develop healthy lines which will breed true. Just as happened with Goldens.

There are no ethical Irish breeders of cross breeds. As it is trying to weed out the bad pedigree breeders is hard enough.

Pumpkinseeds

Dubl07 wrote: »

IKC breeders aren't permitted to mix breeds. Nonetheless such a mix is validly termed a hybrid. It is in no way sneaky to term it such and in fact it is informative when added to a name combining both breed-terms.

Yes, for very valid reasons.

DeVore

Do people not like rescue dogs for some reason??

My experience has been entirely positive! Plus, I paid what... 45 euro for the license and walked away with a terrific dog. Much cheaper than going to breeders and you know precisely the same amount about them as you would in any other way.. which is to say sod all.

I probably should have considered the breed that suited me more before getting Joshua (a beagle) but I fell in love with him and well... I get a lot of exercise now

He was house trained when I got him which (gratefully) skipped the whole mopping up pee thing ... and hasn't been sick a day in his 3.5 years now... (touches everything wood!).

Was he anxious about being left alone when I got him? Yep, and still doesn't much care for it but he's also incredibly loyal and bonded to me like super glue.

I would recommend getting any new dog from the pound any day of the week! Josh was 1 day away from being put down... I'm never sorry I got him.

Dubl07

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Some people have set ideas about rescue dogs, that they're somehow damaged goods, and were given up for good reason. Same people would be adamant about getting a puppy and will go for crosses of breeds for no reason other than they may be cute, or the right size, They barely have a notion for temperament. There's a reason that plenty of cockers are given up, because people can't cope with their drive or temperament.

I had a beautiful pedigree cocker for 14 years. Loved him to bits and know all about the energy levels. I also mentioned cockapoo energy levels in post #5.

I don't think they deserve criticism, but certainly need to be educated about the type of people that will breed these crosses. They are a target market for puppy farmers and back yard breeders.

That's one point of view. The people generally dismissed as back yard breeders could be educated and brought into the fold if they were not scorned. Everyone starts somewhere. Additionally, if would-be owners had more and safer options for buying healthy lines here, it would benefit all concerned.

There is a massive difference between dogs that were developed 200 years ago and the dogs of today. 200 years ago dogs were bred for purpose, GRs were for retrieving game, Shepherds were for guarding flocks.

Goldens were first exhibited in Britain in 1908 and only got breed recognition c. 100 years ago. Up until then they'd have been classed as mongrels according to current criteria.
How many of the current pet goldens retrieve game, shepherds or collies guard sheep, dalmations run under carriages? How many terriers get sent out to catch rats for their dinner?
The role of many breeds has changed and a split has developed in some cases between working lines and show lines, with the show lines becoming parodies of the original dogs bred/domesticated/hybridised to fit a particular purpose. People's lifestyles vary widely, allergies are on the rise and like it or not, some dogs don't cause allergies with either dander or saliva. That's important to a growing section of the doggy community. It's as valid a reason for selective breeding as wanting a non-chewed pheasant or duck.

Cockerpoos etc are for making money for scrupulous breeders.

So change the supply element of the equation instead of denying the demand.

There are no ethical Irish breeders of cross breeds. As it is trying to weed out the bad pedigree breeders is hard enough.

People who want to live with dogs in the 21st century have very different lifestyles to those who lived with them through desire or necessity in previous eras. Insisting that only existing breeds be given validity is shortsighted, in my opinion.

~~~~~~

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Yes, for very valid reasons.

I'm genuinely interested in those reasons. Can you throw some light on the main valid reasons?

~~~~~~
Look, I know you folk are passionate about your dogs and the well-being of animals in general. I'd just appreciate your giving a little open-minded consideration to my points as well.

I'd far rather dog-lovers spent our energy in lobbying for shops and eateries etc to be dog-friendly so I and my friends could enjoy a trip out to the shops or a meal without leaving the dog(s) behind. Britain and parts of Europe are miles ahead of us on that front. If dogs were more integrated into society perhaps they'd be spend less time alone at home and would thus be less likely to be 'trouble'.

muddypaws

DeVore wrote: »

Do people not like rescue dogs for some reason??

My experience has been entirely positive! Plus, I paid what... 45 euro for the license and walked away with a terrific dog. Much cheaper than going to breeders and you know precisely the same amount about them as you would in any other way.. which is to say sod all.

I probably should have considered the breed that suited me more before getting Joshua (a beagle) but I fell in love with him and well... I get a lot of exercise now

He was house trained when I got him which (gratefully) skipped the whole mopping up pee thing ... and hasn't been sick a day in his 3.5 years now... (touches everything wood!).

Was he anxious about being left alone when I got him? Yep, and still doesn't much care for it but he's also incredibly loyal and bonded to me like super glue.

I would recommend getting any new dog from the pound any day of the week! Josh was 1 day away from being put down... I'm never sorry I got him.

Josh was 1 day away from being put down, if he had come from an ethical breeder, he would never have been in that position. What happened to his litter mates I wonder, and his parents? Is his mother living in a shed, churning out litter after litter?

I have absolutely nothing against rescue dogs, as I have run a rescue for years and my home is full of them. However, I wish there was no need for pounds and rescues, and when I see people breeding cross breeds and giving them a made up name purely and simply to sell them for more money then I do have an issue.

Your statement about knowing as much about a rescue dog as you would if you bought from a reputable, ethical breeder is wrong. I know what breeder I would go to if I wanted to buy a husky pup, and they know the history of all of their dogs for generations, all genetic health testing is done and if a dog's temperament isn't as good as their physical health, they won't be bred from.

peasant

muddypaws wrote: »

I know what breeder I would go to if I wanted to buy a husky pup, and they know the history of all of their dogs for generations, all genetic health testing is done and if a dog's temperament isn't as good as their physical health, they won't be bred from.

That breeder however will still not be able to tell you how your chosen pup will behave in different situations during its life, for example whether it will suffer from separation anxiety or be afraid of thunderstorms or how it will react to cats or kids

A rescue might ...once to dog is old enough to have been assessed properly.


Other subject;
I do not condone or support puppy farms, but I do get just as annoyed with the new catch word "ethical breeder".
Just because it is now possible to test for the odd genetic marker and shoot a few x-ray pictures doesn't mean that breeding according to kennel club standards is now "ethical" ...it still is inbreeding based on eugenics from the late 19th century, made worse by following fashion to the detriment of the dogs.

A properly ethical breeder would have no difficulties with introducing dogs from outside the breed into their breeding programme to improve the health of their dogs ...unimaginable to kennel club indoctrinated breeders.

And in a way this "my breed must stay pure at all cost" attitude also fuels the desire for all the "designer breeds" among the uninitiated general public.
Kennel clubs have marketed their breeds and their "assured qualities" for so long that people believe it. So if a Cocker is guaranteed to be X and a Poodle is guaranteed to be Y then a "CockaPoo" must be X + Y and therefore better because you get the best of both.

Kennel club breeders a reaping what they sowed

Pumpkinseeds

DeVore wrote: »

Do people not like rescue dogs for some reason??

My experience has been entirely positive! Plus, I paid what... 45 euro for the license and walked away with a terrific dog. Much cheaper than going to breeders and you know precisely the same amount about them as you would in any other way.. which is to say sod all.

I probably should have considered the breed that suited me more before getting Joshua (a beagle) but I fell in love with him and well... I get a lot of exercise now

He was house trained when I got him which (gratefully) skipped the whole mopping up pee thing ... and hasn't been sick a day in his 3.5 years now... (touches everything wood!).

Was he anxious about being left alone when I got him? Yep, and still doesn't much care for it but he's also incredibly loyal and bonded to me like super glue.

I would recommend getting any new dog from the pound any day of the week! Josh was 1 day away from being put down... I'm never sorry I got him.

I think a lot of people just assume that dogs end up in rescues because of some problem with the dog, which of course is mostly wrong. I don't know why the stigma is still there.:(

muddypaws

peasant wrote: »

That breeder however will still not be able to tell you how your chosen pup will behave in different situations during its life, for example whether it will suffer from separation anxiety or be afraid of thunderstorms or how it will react to cats or kids

A rescue might ...once to dog is old enough to have been assessed properly.


Other subject;
I do not condone or support puppy farms, but I do get just as annoyed with the new catch word "ethical breeder".
Just because it is now possible to test for the odd genetic marker and shoot a few x-ray pictures doesn't mean that breeding according to kennel club standards is now "ethical" ...it still is inbreeding based on eugenics from the late 19th century, made worse by following fashion to the detriment of the dogs.

A properly ethical breeder would have no difficulties with introducing dogs from outside the breed into their breeding programme to improve the health of their dogs ...unimaginable to kennel club indoctrinated breeders.

And in a way this "my breed must stay pure at all cost" attitude also fuels the desire for all the "designer breeds" among the uninitiated general public.
Kennel clubs have marketed their breeds and their "assured qualities" for so long that people believe it. So if a Cocker is guaranteed to be X and a Poodle is guaranteed to be Y then a "CockaPoo" must be X + Y and therefore better because you get the best of both.

Kennel club breeders a reaping what they sowed

I disagree with your first point, if the pup is socialised properly, then those issues won't occur. Having had mums and pups in, and speaking to breeders and people who have bought pups from them, you can get a pretty good idea of what a dog's temperament is going to be from its parents, grandparents etc.

'ethical breeder' isn't a new catchword, for one thing its actually two words and the term has been in use for a long time.

You make a lot of assumptions about people that you don't know. Kennel club indoctrinated breeders? Because they are incapable of thinking for themselves?

peasant

muddypaws wrote: »

. Kennel club indoctrinated breeders? Because they are incapable of thinking for themselves?

Maybe not incapable ...not allowed ...rules, procedures, statute books, breeding guidelines etc.

muddypaws

peasant wrote: »

Maybe not incapable ...not allowed ...rules, procedures, statute books, breeding guidelines etc.

all of which are written by people and so can be changed, and indeed are.

DeVore

muddypaws wrote: »

Josh was 1 day away from being put down, if he had come from an ethical breeder, he would never have been in that position. What happened to his litter mates I wonder, and his parents? Is his mother living in a shed, churning out litter after litter?

I'm sorry, I'm not being obtuse but I don't understand that logic...
Josh's origins and how he got into the hands his original owner has no impact on that person subsequently abandoning him (if that is, in fact, what happened)
you and I know nothing about his litter mates, or mother/father. Neither of whom put him in the pound either

In fact, what I was saying was "if you want a new dog, pick one up from the pound where they're are great dogs going for a song rather than paying a breeder (of any kind) to produce another dog for you..."

muddypaws

DeVore wrote: »

I'm sorry, I'm not being obtuse but I don't understand that logic...
Josh's origins and how he got into the hands his original owner has no impact on that person subsequently abandoning him (if that is, in fact, what happened)
you and I know nothing about his litter mates, or mother/father. Neither of whom put him in the pound either

In fact, what I was saying was "if you want a new dog, pick one up from the pound where they're are great dogs going for a song rather than paying a breeder (of any kind) to produce another dog for you..."

The logic is that he was obviously bred by either a back yard breeder or puppy farmer who didn't give a toss about him, his siblings or parents. If people only bought pups from ethical breeders who insist on contracts then dogs like Josh wouldn't end up in pounds, if owners' circumstances change, then the breeder takes them back, no need for them to be killed in pounds, or for rescues to be completely overwhelmed, as they are at the moment with unwanted dogs. Reputable breeders do the same kind of home checks as good rescues, they don't just sell a pup to anyone who has the money. The breeder I would go to for a husky pup has never, ever, had a dog that they have bred, end up in a pound or rescue either here or in the UK.

Devore you have put loads of posts up in this forum about the struggles that you have had with Josh, and how difficult he has been to live with. I'm glad that it seems to have settled down and you have resolved all of the issues.

This thread is about designer dogs, those bred by people who have no interest in their welfare, with a made up name so that they can sell them for more money than just calling them a cross. If you or any other poster can find anyone involved in rescue that doesn't have an issue with designer crossbreeds, I would love to talk to them.

Cherry Blossom

peasant wrote: »

Just because it is now possible to test for the odd genetic marker and shoot a few x-ray pictures doesn't mean that breeding according to kennel club standards is now "ethical" ...it still is inbreeding based on eugenics from the late 19th century, made worse by following fashion to the detriment of the dogs.

A properly ethical breeder would have no difficulties with introducing dogs from outside the breed into their breeding programme to improve the health of their dogs ...unimaginable to kennel club indoctrinated breeders.

But that is what the inbreeding co-efficient is for. It's a mathematical calculation to work out how inbred a dog is. If you are an ethical breeder your inbreeding coefficients should be as close as possible to,
if not 0%. The Uk kennel club's website has a tool that works it out for you, for Irish dogs you can work it out yourself. On your second point above, there have been out-cross programs where a different breed has been used to correct genetic flaws in a breed. (Dalmations anyone!). A few years back there was program crossing show type red and white setters with mostly unregistered but health tested working lines to improve genetic diversity within the show-lines. This, to me, is what defines ethical breeding.

DeVore

muddypaws wrote: »

The logic is that he was obviously bred by either a back yard breeder or puppy farmer who didn't give a toss about him, his siblings or parents. If people only bought pups from ethical breeders who insist on contracts then dogs like Josh wouldn't end up in pounds, if owners' circumstances change, then the breeder takes them back, no need for them to be killed in pounds, or for rescues to be completely overwhelmed, as they are at the moment with unwanted dogs. Reputable breeders do the same kind of home checks as good rescues, they don't just sell a pup to anyone who has the money. The breeder I would go to for a husky pup has never, ever, had a dog that they have bred, end up in a pound or rescue either here or in the UK.

Devore you have put loads of posts up in this forum about the struggles that you have had with Josh, and how difficult he has been to live with. I'm glad that it seems to have settled down and you have resolved all of the issues.

This thread is about designer dogs, those bred by people who have no interest in their welfare, with a made up name so that they can sell them for more money than just calling them a cross. If you or any other poster can find anyone involved in rescue that doesn't have an issue with designer crossbreeds, I would love to talk to them.

Oh, I'm no fan of designer crossbreeds... I didn't realise breeders would take a dog back, hence I was confused why the origins of the dog would stop them being abandoned... I guess since if they have papers etc, they are worth a bit of cash to the breeder to take them back.

Is that standard practise for breeders?

One other thing in general I've been told is that Josh would fetch a decent amount even though he doesn't have papers... so I dunno why the people who had him didn't sell him.

Nekarsulm

I have never been to a pound in a larger urban area, but our local pound, in rural Cavan, usually has a small enough selection. I very rarely go in because it's hard to leave empty handed. Most dogs the warden has have either been dumped on some lane way or roadside, or were chasing cattle/sheep. The odd time you get dogs belonging to people emigrating.
I got a super Red Setter in the pound about 12 years ago, his owners probably discovered that he was useless as a gun dog. ( he was) At least they didn't shoot him. He died last year, so will be going again to see what's there shortly.
I would certainly recommend the pound.

borderlinemeath

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I have never been to a pound in a larger urban area, but our local pound, in rural Cavan, usually has a small enough selection. I very rarely go in because it's hard to leave empty handed. Most dogs the warden has have either been dumped on some lane way or roadside, or were chasing cattle/sheep. The odd time you get dogs belonging to people emigrating.
I got a super Red Setter in the pound about 12 years ago, his owners probably discovered that he was useless as a gun dog. ( he was) At least they didn't shoot him. He died last year, so will be going again to see what's there shortly.
I would certainly recommend the pound.

If you're looking for another Red Setter, there was 9 of them handed into the warden in Limerick pound last week. They've gone to a Munster based SPCA who are taking enquiries for rehoming at the moment. It's against forum rules to mention rescues so if you're interested PM me and I'll point you in their direction

I have to say I'm completely biased towards Red Setters, I have 3 at the moment, and the ones that I'm speaking about look very like my rescue boy who came from the West of Ireland. He too was a failed gun dog, but is the best dog you could ever meet.

tk123

DeVore wrote: »

Oh, I'm no fan of designer crossbreeds... I didn't realise breeders would take a dog back, hence I was confused why the origins of the dog would stop them being abandoned... I guess since if they have papers etc, they are worth a bit of cash to the breeder to take them back.

Is that standard practise for breeders?

No it's more a case of the breeder actually caring where their dogs end up and what kind of life they're going to have. The breeder I got Lucy from turned 2 or 3 people away because she didn't think they'd be suitable owners. Even breeders here who may not register their pups or agree with the IKC have come on looking for advise to pass on to owners when the pup was injured etc - it's not always a case of people wanting to making a few quid and turning their back on owners once they've taken the pup.

muddypaws

DeVore wrote: »

Oh, I'm no fan of designer crossbreeds... I didn't realise breeders would take a dog back, hence I was confused why the origins of the dog would stop them being abandoned... I guess since if they have papers etc, they are worth a bit of cash to the breeder to take them back.

Is that standard practise for breeders?

One other thing in general I've been told is that Josh would fetch a decent amount even though he doesn't have papers... so I dunno why the people who had him didn't sell him.

No, nothing whatsoever to do with money, its all about why they breed in the first place, and wanting to make sure any puppy that was raised in their home is safe for the rest of their lives. Usually when a breeder takes a dog back they will rehome it for free, they just want a good home.

Its standard practice for ethical, reputable breeders, who unfortunately are few and far between, but if people only ever bought from breeders who do things properly, it would wipe out the unwanted dog problem here. You would still have some unwanted dogs obviously, as there would still be accidental matings between pet dogs but it would hopefully be a much more manageable issue.

Thats the point though Devore, there are so many unwanted dogs out there, even those with papers, that there isn't a market for older dogs to be sold. If you only knew how many registered siberian huskies I've taken in over the years, you would be stunned. IKC registered dogs have to be microchipped, so even if one comes out of the pound, you can find out if its registered. Just have a look at the various rescues around the country, they are all full, not just of crossbreeds, but plenty of pedigree dogs as well.

A case in point, I took a 10 month old IKC registered husky in a few years ago, he was signed over to me with his papers. Nobody wanted to adopt him, not one single serious enquiry. So he's stayed, and he qualified for Crufts this year and went. He also has a Working dog title. So you would think someone would want him wouldn't you?

While theres such a huge overbreeding problem, there will be far too many dogs being killed in pounds, or shot in fields or bogs, or thrown in rivers to drown. And people who buy from disreputable breeders ensure that the cycle just keeps on going.

ShaShaBear

On this topic, I just saw someone in Louth is selling breaking edge hybrid, purpose bred Llapzus.
Yes, Llasa Apso x Shih Tsu
They go for 300 euro and are completely non-shed and hypoallergenic!

:mad:

dr.fuzzenstein

aisling2383 wrote: »

If you are a dog lover yourself, you will know that it does not matter what the dog looks like, you will love them for their personality and not their looks. But, judging by the horrible comment you wrote, you have not got a clue about dogs, and that you don't love them. I am actually really angry writing this, and I couldn't let all of my anger out in the first comment that I wrote.

I think there are dog lovers and people who own a status symbol with full paperwork. My own dog is an indeterminable mix of what appears to be several terriers and maybe a bit of poodle. Absolutely the most adorable thing in the world.

ShaShaBear

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I think there are dog lovers and people who own a status symbol with full paperwork.

Plenty of serious pet owners who love dogs and have purebred animals with paperwork. You know, you can even get them out of rescue!
That poster paid money and travelled to England to buy a mongrel dog from someone who intentionally bred them. She didn't just happen across one in the pound or took one off the street.

borderlinemeath

I was handed a pure bred Irish setter with papers, they actually paid me for boarding too. As much as people would say that somebody would pay money for a dog without papers, without any proven workability, titles or awards, would they hand the money over out of their pocket themselves? Not a chance. It's like strangers telling you your newborn baby is lovely and it looks like you or the daddy. People will tell you what you want to hear.

Now a cute puppy of unproven health and welfare and unknown background, that'll be €300 please and thanks. In a car park if possible, it'll make it easier for you to travel half the distance.:rolleyes:

dr.fuzzenstein

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Plenty of serious pet owners who love dogs and have purebred animals with paperwork. You know, you can even get them out of rescue!
That poster paid money and travelled to England to buy a mongrel dog from someone who intentionally bred them. She didn't just happen across one in the pound or took one off the street.

I see what you mean, the worst of both worlds.
That is a bit different, our dogs chose us, not the other way round.
The whole pure bred thing, not for me. When the paperwork becomes more important than the actual animal, I'm out. When you would dismiss a dog because of it's lineage, forget it. We have a sheepdog, a brillopad, a terrier-poddle-God-knows-what and a big Beagle, I wouldn't give them up for all the money in the world.
But I get the whole "dodgy dog breeder" thing. As soon as the animal becomes second consideration to either money or paper, forget it.

ShaShaBear

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I see what you mean, the worst of both worlds.
That is a bit different, our dogs chose us, not the other way round.
The whole pure bred thing, not for me. When the paperwork becomes more important than the actual animal, I'm out. When you would dismiss a dog because of it's lineage, forget it. We have a sheepdog, a brillopad, a terrier-poddle-God-knows-what and a big Beagle, I wouldn't give them up for all the money in the world.
But I get the whole "dodgy dog breeder" thing. As soon as the animal becomes second consideration to either money or paper, forget it.

All I've ever owned are blender dogs. We currently have a border collie crossed with demolition equipment.
I don't have an issue with people paying for pedigree dogs - sometimes the characteristics (physically or mentally) are desired or required (eg working dogs) and cannot be achieved through rescue. If these people source a breeder that works primarily to strengthen the genetics and lineage of the breed (ie only breeding rarely from top champion dogs proven to be shining examples with immaculate bills of health, excellent skeletal structure and the mental disposition of an angel), then fair dues to them. It's the ones who pay similar prices for someone owning one of these dogs who just got Joe Soap down the road to cover their bitch with his likened breed, neither of which have had veterinary care past their yearly jabs (if even that). They could essentially be getting no better than a mongrel in terms of temperament and health and the money is wasted.