Cockapoos???

muddypaws

DeVore wrote: »

Do people not like rescue dogs for some reason??

My experience has been entirely positive! Plus, I paid what... 45 euro for the license and walked away with a terrific dog. Much cheaper than going to breeders and you know precisely the same amount about them as you would in any other way.. which is to say sod all.

I probably should have considered the breed that suited me more before getting Joshua (a beagle) but I fell in love with him and well... I get a lot of exercise now

He was house trained when I got him which (gratefully) skipped the whole mopping up pee thing ... and hasn't been sick a day in his 3.5 years now... (touches everything wood!).

Was he anxious about being left alone when I got him? Yep, and still doesn't much care for it but he's also incredibly loyal and bonded to me like super glue.

I would recommend getting any new dog from the pound any day of the week! Josh was 1 day away from being put down... I'm never sorry I got him.

Josh was 1 day away from being put down, if he had come from an ethical breeder, he would never have been in that position. What happened to his litter mates I wonder, and his parents? Is his mother living in a shed, churning out litter after litter?

I have absolutely nothing against rescue dogs, as I have run a rescue for years and my home is full of them. However, I wish there was no need for pounds and rescues, and when I see people breeding cross breeds and giving them a made up name purely and simply to sell them for more money then I do have an issue.

Your statement about knowing as much about a rescue dog as you would if you bought from a reputable, ethical breeder is wrong. I know what breeder I would go to if I wanted to buy a husky pup, and they know the history of all of their dogs for generations, all genetic health testing is done and if a dog's temperament isn't as good as their physical health, they won't be bred from.

peasant

muddypaws wrote: »

I know what breeder I would go to if I wanted to buy a husky pup, and they know the history of all of their dogs for generations, all genetic health testing is done and if a dog's temperament isn't as good as their physical health, they won't be bred from.

That breeder however will still not be able to tell you how your chosen pup will behave in different situations during its life, for example whether it will suffer from separation anxiety or be afraid of thunderstorms or how it will react to cats or kids

A rescue might ...once to dog is old enough to have been assessed properly.


Other subject;
I do not condone or support puppy farms, but I do get just as annoyed with the new catch word "ethical breeder".
Just because it is now possible to test for the odd genetic marker and shoot a few x-ray pictures doesn't mean that breeding according to kennel club standards is now "ethical" ...it still is inbreeding based on eugenics from the late 19th century, made worse by following fashion to the detriment of the dogs.

A properly ethical breeder would have no difficulties with introducing dogs from outside the breed into their breeding programme to improve the health of their dogs ...unimaginable to kennel club indoctrinated breeders.

And in a way this "my breed must stay pure at all cost" attitude also fuels the desire for all the "designer breeds" among the uninitiated general public.
Kennel clubs have marketed their breeds and their "assured qualities" for so long that people believe it. So if a Cocker is guaranteed to be X and a Poodle is guaranteed to be Y then a "CockaPoo" must be X + Y and therefore better because you get the best of both.

Kennel club breeders a reaping what they sowed

Pumpkinseeds

DeVore wrote: »

Do people not like rescue dogs for some reason??

My experience has been entirely positive! Plus, I paid what... 45 euro for the license and walked away with a terrific dog. Much cheaper than going to breeders and you know precisely the same amount about them as you would in any other way.. which is to say sod all.

I probably should have considered the breed that suited me more before getting Joshua (a beagle) but I fell in love with him and well... I get a lot of exercise now

He was house trained when I got him which (gratefully) skipped the whole mopping up pee thing ... and hasn't been sick a day in his 3.5 years now... (touches everything wood!).

Was he anxious about being left alone when I got him? Yep, and still doesn't much care for it but he's also incredibly loyal and bonded to me like super glue.

I would recommend getting any new dog from the pound any day of the week! Josh was 1 day away from being put down... I'm never sorry I got him.

I think a lot of people just assume that dogs end up in rescues because of some problem with the dog, which of course is mostly wrong. I don't know why the stigma is still there.:(

muddypaws

peasant wrote: »

That breeder however will still not be able to tell you how your chosen pup will behave in different situations during its life, for example whether it will suffer from separation anxiety or be afraid of thunderstorms or how it will react to cats or kids

A rescue might ...once to dog is old enough to have been assessed properly.


Other subject;
I do not condone or support puppy farms, but I do get just as annoyed with the new catch word "ethical breeder".
Just because it is now possible to test for the odd genetic marker and shoot a few x-ray pictures doesn't mean that breeding according to kennel club standards is now "ethical" ...it still is inbreeding based on eugenics from the late 19th century, made worse by following fashion to the detriment of the dogs.

A properly ethical breeder would have no difficulties with introducing dogs from outside the breed into their breeding programme to improve the health of their dogs ...unimaginable to kennel club indoctrinated breeders.

And in a way this "my breed must stay pure at all cost" attitude also fuels the desire for all the "designer breeds" among the uninitiated general public.
Kennel clubs have marketed their breeds and their "assured qualities" for so long that people believe it. So if a Cocker is guaranteed to be X and a Poodle is guaranteed to be Y then a "CockaPoo" must be X + Y and therefore better because you get the best of both.

Kennel club breeders a reaping what they sowed

I disagree with your first point, if the pup is socialised properly, then those issues won't occur. Having had mums and pups in, and speaking to breeders and people who have bought pups from them, you can get a pretty good idea of what a dog's temperament is going to be from its parents, grandparents etc.

'ethical breeder' isn't a new catchword, for one thing its actually two words and the term has been in use for a long time.

You make a lot of assumptions about people that you don't know. Kennel club indoctrinated breeders? Because they are incapable of thinking for themselves?

peasant

muddypaws wrote: »

. Kennel club indoctrinated breeders? Because they are incapable of thinking for themselves?

Maybe not incapable ...not allowed ...rules, procedures, statute books, breeding guidelines etc.

muddypaws

peasant wrote: »

Maybe not incapable ...not allowed ...rules, procedures, statute books, breeding guidelines etc.

all of which are written by people and so can be changed, and indeed are.

DeVore

muddypaws wrote: »

Josh was 1 day away from being put down, if he had come from an ethical breeder, he would never have been in that position. What happened to his litter mates I wonder, and his parents? Is his mother living in a shed, churning out litter after litter?

I'm sorry, I'm not being obtuse but I don't understand that logic...
Josh's origins and how he got into the hands his original owner has no impact on that person subsequently abandoning him (if that is, in fact, what happened)
you and I know nothing about his litter mates, or mother/father. Neither of whom put him in the pound either

In fact, what I was saying was "if you want a new dog, pick one up from the pound where they're are great dogs going for a song rather than paying a breeder (of any kind) to produce another dog for you..."

muddypaws

DeVore wrote: »

I'm sorry, I'm not being obtuse but I don't understand that logic...
Josh's origins and how he got into the hands his original owner has no impact on that person subsequently abandoning him (if that is, in fact, what happened)
you and I know nothing about his litter mates, or mother/father. Neither of whom put him in the pound either

In fact, what I was saying was "if you want a new dog, pick one up from the pound where they're are great dogs going for a song rather than paying a breeder (of any kind) to produce another dog for you..."

The logic is that he was obviously bred by either a back yard breeder or puppy farmer who didn't give a toss about him, his siblings or parents. If people only bought pups from ethical breeders who insist on contracts then dogs like Josh wouldn't end up in pounds, if owners' circumstances change, then the breeder takes them back, no need for them to be killed in pounds, or for rescues to be completely overwhelmed, as they are at the moment with unwanted dogs. Reputable breeders do the same kind of home checks as good rescues, they don't just sell a pup to anyone who has the money. The breeder I would go to for a husky pup has never, ever, had a dog that they have bred, end up in a pound or rescue either here or in the UK.

Devore you have put loads of posts up in this forum about the struggles that you have had with Josh, and how difficult he has been to live with. I'm glad that it seems to have settled down and you have resolved all of the issues.

This thread is about designer dogs, those bred by people who have no interest in their welfare, with a made up name so that they can sell them for more money than just calling them a cross. If you or any other poster can find anyone involved in rescue that doesn't have an issue with designer crossbreeds, I would love to talk to them.

Cherry Blossom

peasant wrote: »

Just because it is now possible to test for the odd genetic marker and shoot a few x-ray pictures doesn't mean that breeding according to kennel club standards is now "ethical" ...it still is inbreeding based on eugenics from the late 19th century, made worse by following fashion to the detriment of the dogs.

A properly ethical breeder would have no difficulties with introducing dogs from outside the breed into their breeding programme to improve the health of their dogs ...unimaginable to kennel club indoctrinated breeders.

But that is what the inbreeding co-efficient is for. It's a mathematical calculation to work out how inbred a dog is. If you are an ethical breeder your inbreeding coefficients should be as close as possible to,
if not 0%. The Uk kennel club's website has a tool that works it out for you, for Irish dogs you can work it out yourself. On your second point above, there have been out-cross programs where a different breed has been used to correct genetic flaws in a breed. (Dalmations anyone!). A few years back there was program crossing show type red and white setters with mostly unregistered but health tested working lines to improve genetic diversity within the show-lines. This, to me, is what defines ethical breeding.

DeVore

muddypaws wrote: »

The logic is that he was obviously bred by either a back yard breeder or puppy farmer who didn't give a toss about him, his siblings or parents. If people only bought pups from ethical breeders who insist on contracts then dogs like Josh wouldn't end up in pounds, if owners' circumstances change, then the breeder takes them back, no need for them to be killed in pounds, or for rescues to be completely overwhelmed, as they are at the moment with unwanted dogs. Reputable breeders do the same kind of home checks as good rescues, they don't just sell a pup to anyone who has the money. The breeder I would go to for a husky pup has never, ever, had a dog that they have bred, end up in a pound or rescue either here or in the UK.

Devore you have put loads of posts up in this forum about the struggles that you have had with Josh, and how difficult he has been to live with. I'm glad that it seems to have settled down and you have resolved all of the issues.

This thread is about designer dogs, those bred by people who have no interest in their welfare, with a made up name so that they can sell them for more money than just calling them a cross. If you or any other poster can find anyone involved in rescue that doesn't have an issue with designer crossbreeds, I would love to talk to them.

Oh, I'm no fan of designer crossbreeds... I didn't realise breeders would take a dog back, hence I was confused why the origins of the dog would stop them being abandoned... I guess since if they have papers etc, they are worth a bit of cash to the breeder to take them back.

Is that standard practise for breeders?

One other thing in general I've been told is that Josh would fetch a decent amount even though he doesn't have papers... so I dunno why the people who had him didn't sell him.

Nekarsulm

I have never been to a pound in a larger urban area, but our local pound, in rural Cavan, usually has a small enough selection. I very rarely go in because it's hard to leave empty handed. Most dogs the warden has have either been dumped on some lane way or roadside, or were chasing cattle/sheep. The odd time you get dogs belonging to people emigrating.
I got a super Red Setter in the pound about 12 years ago, his owners probably discovered that he was useless as a gun dog. ( he was) At least they didn't shoot him. He died last year, so will be going again to see what's there shortly.
I would certainly recommend the pound.

borderlinemeath

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I have never been to a pound in a larger urban area, but our local pound, in rural Cavan, usually has a small enough selection. I very rarely go in because it's hard to leave empty handed. Most dogs the warden has have either been dumped on some lane way or roadside, or were chasing cattle/sheep. The odd time you get dogs belonging to people emigrating.
I got a super Red Setter in the pound about 12 years ago, his owners probably discovered that he was useless as a gun dog. ( he was) At least they didn't shoot him. He died last year, so will be going again to see what's there shortly.
I would certainly recommend the pound.

If you're looking for another Red Setter, there was 9 of them handed into the warden in Limerick pound last week. They've gone to a Munster based SPCA who are taking enquiries for rehoming at the moment. It's against forum rules to mention rescues so if you're interested PM me and I'll point you in their direction

I have to say I'm completely biased towards Red Setters, I have 3 at the moment, and the ones that I'm speaking about look very like my rescue boy who came from the West of Ireland. He too was a failed gun dog, but is the best dog you could ever meet.

tk123

DeVore wrote: »

Oh, I'm no fan of designer crossbreeds... I didn't realise breeders would take a dog back, hence I was confused why the origins of the dog would stop them being abandoned... I guess since if they have papers etc, they are worth a bit of cash to the breeder to take them back.

Is that standard practise for breeders?

No it's more a case of the breeder actually caring where their dogs end up and what kind of life they're going to have. The breeder I got Lucy from turned 2 or 3 people away because she didn't think they'd be suitable owners. Even breeders here who may not register their pups or agree with the IKC have come on looking for advise to pass on to owners when the pup was injured etc - it's not always a case of people wanting to making a few quid and turning their back on owners once they've taken the pup.

muddypaws

DeVore wrote: »

Oh, I'm no fan of designer crossbreeds... I didn't realise breeders would take a dog back, hence I was confused why the origins of the dog would stop them being abandoned... I guess since if they have papers etc, they are worth a bit of cash to the breeder to take them back.

Is that standard practise for breeders?

One other thing in general I've been told is that Josh would fetch a decent amount even though he doesn't have papers... so I dunno why the people who had him didn't sell him.

No, nothing whatsoever to do with money, its all about why they breed in the first place, and wanting to make sure any puppy that was raised in their home is safe for the rest of their lives. Usually when a breeder takes a dog back they will rehome it for free, they just want a good home.

Its standard practice for ethical, reputable breeders, who unfortunately are few and far between, but if people only ever bought from breeders who do things properly, it would wipe out the unwanted dog problem here. You would still have some unwanted dogs obviously, as there would still be accidental matings between pet dogs but it would hopefully be a much more manageable issue.

Thats the point though Devore, there are so many unwanted dogs out there, even those with papers, that there isn't a market for older dogs to be sold. If you only knew how many registered siberian huskies I've taken in over the years, you would be stunned. IKC registered dogs have to be microchipped, so even if one comes out of the pound, you can find out if its registered. Just have a look at the various rescues around the country, they are all full, not just of crossbreeds, but plenty of pedigree dogs as well.

A case in point, I took a 10 month old IKC registered husky in a few years ago, he was signed over to me with his papers. Nobody wanted to adopt him, not one single serious enquiry. So he's stayed, and he qualified for Crufts this year and went. He also has a Working dog title. So you would think someone would want him wouldn't you?

While theres such a huge overbreeding problem, there will be far too many dogs being killed in pounds, or shot in fields or bogs, or thrown in rivers to drown. And people who buy from disreputable breeders ensure that the cycle just keeps on going.

ShaShaBear

On this topic, I just saw someone in Louth is selling breaking edge hybrid, purpose bred Llapzus.
Yes, Llasa Apso x Shih Tsu
They go for 300 euro and are completely non-shed and hypoallergenic!

:mad:

dr.fuzzenstein

aisling2383 wrote: »

If you are a dog lover yourself, you will know that it does not matter what the dog looks like, you will love them for their personality and not their looks. But, judging by the horrible comment you wrote, you have not got a clue about dogs, and that you don't love them. I am actually really angry writing this, and I couldn't let all of my anger out in the first comment that I wrote.

I think there are dog lovers and people who own a status symbol with full paperwork. My own dog is an indeterminable mix of what appears to be several terriers and maybe a bit of poodle. Absolutely the most adorable thing in the world.

ShaShaBear

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I think there are dog lovers and people who own a status symbol with full paperwork.

Plenty of serious pet owners who love dogs and have purebred animals with paperwork. You know, you can even get them out of rescue!
That poster paid money and travelled to England to buy a mongrel dog from someone who intentionally bred them. She didn't just happen across one in the pound or took one off the street.

borderlinemeath

I was handed a pure bred Irish setter with papers, they actually paid me for boarding too. As much as people would say that somebody would pay money for a dog without papers, without any proven workability, titles or awards, would they hand the money over out of their pocket themselves? Not a chance. It's like strangers telling you your newborn baby is lovely and it looks like you or the daddy. People will tell you what you want to hear.

Now a cute puppy of unproven health and welfare and unknown background, that'll be €300 please and thanks. In a car park if possible, it'll make it easier for you to travel half the distance.:rolleyes:

dr.fuzzenstein

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Plenty of serious pet owners who love dogs and have purebred animals with paperwork. You know, you can even get them out of rescue!
That poster paid money and travelled to England to buy a mongrel dog from someone who intentionally bred them. She didn't just happen across one in the pound or took one off the street.

I see what you mean, the worst of both worlds.
That is a bit different, our dogs chose us, not the other way round.
The whole pure bred thing, not for me. When the paperwork becomes more important than the actual animal, I'm out. When you would dismiss a dog because of it's lineage, forget it. We have a sheepdog, a brillopad, a terrier-poddle-God-knows-what and a big Beagle, I wouldn't give them up for all the money in the world.
But I get the whole "dodgy dog breeder" thing. As soon as the animal becomes second consideration to either money or paper, forget it.

ShaShaBear

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I see what you mean, the worst of both worlds.
That is a bit different, our dogs chose us, not the other way round.
The whole pure bred thing, not for me. When the paperwork becomes more important than the actual animal, I'm out. When you would dismiss a dog because of it's lineage, forget it. We have a sheepdog, a brillopad, a terrier-poddle-God-knows-what and a big Beagle, I wouldn't give them up for all the money in the world.
But I get the whole "dodgy dog breeder" thing. As soon as the animal becomes second consideration to either money or paper, forget it.

All I've ever owned are blender dogs. We currently have a border collie crossed with demolition equipment.
I don't have an issue with people paying for pedigree dogs - sometimes the characteristics (physically or mentally) are desired or required (eg working dogs) and cannot be achieved through rescue. If these people source a breeder that works primarily to strengthen the genetics and lineage of the breed (ie only breeding rarely from top champion dogs proven to be shining examples with immaculate bills of health, excellent skeletal structure and the mental disposition of an angel), then fair dues to them. It's the ones who pay similar prices for someone owning one of these dogs who just got Joe Soap down the road to cover their bitch with his likened breed, neither of which have had veterinary care past their yearly jabs (if even that). They could essentially be getting no better than a mongrel in terms of temperament and health and the money is wasted.

Ash.J.Williams

a dog is a dog ...cop on to yourselves ...snobs, I've only had mongrals that literally turned up at the door other family members have have pedigree inbred freaks of dogs that require serious vet attention and ya know what .....they're all awesome

DBB

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

a dog is a dog ...cop on to yourselves ...snobs, ...
pedigree inbred freaks of dogs

Calm down there Ash.J.Williams,
I feel like a broken record saying this, but if you can't argue with other users without disrespecting them, don't post.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

kylith

muddypaws wrote: »

The logic is that he was obviously bred by either a back yard breeder or puppy farmer who didn't give a toss about him, his siblings or parents. If people only bought pups from ethical breeders who insist on contracts then dogs like Josh wouldn't end up in pounds, if owners' circumstances change, then the breeder takes them back, no need for them to be killed in pounds, or for rescues to be completely overwhelmed, as they are at the moment with unwanted dogs. Reputable breeders do the same kind of home checks as good rescues, they don't just sell a pup to anyone who has the money. The breeder I would go to for a husky pup has never, ever, had a dog that they have bred, end up in a pound or rescue either here or in the UK.

False logic. The quality of Josh's breeder doesn't mean a thing because we don't know under what circumstances he wound up in the pound. He may have been collected as a stray. If an owner decides to hand a dog to the pound then no amount of reputable breeding or breeder contracts will stop them from doing it. Josh may have had the best breeder in the country but if he escaped, was lost, or was dumped by his previous owner and thus came to the pound has no reflection on his breeder.

borderlinemeath

kylith wrote: »

False logic. The quality of Josh's breeder doesn't mean a thing because we don't know under what circumstances he wound up in the pound. He may have been collected as a stray. If an owner decides to hand a dog to the pound then no amount of reputable breeding or breeder contracts will stop them from doing it. Josh may have had the best breeder in the country but if he escaped, was lost, or was dumped by his previous owner and thus came to the pound has no reflection on his breeder.

From memory, maybe DeVore can clarify, I don't think Josh was microchipped. He might have got his chip on leaving the pound. Or even if he had one it was never registered. That's a red flag straightaway. No decent breeder doesn't chip or doesn't tell the new owners to ensure to get their details on it straight away.

tk123

ShaShaBear wrote: »

On this topic, I just saw someone in Louth is selling breaking edge hybrid, purpose bred Llapzus.
Yes, Llasa Apso x Shih Tsu
They go for 300 euro and are completely non-shed and hypoallergenic!

:mad:

I'd rather have tumble weeds of dog hair around the place (like what we have now lol :rolleyes:) and my own allergies than have deal with skin issues and allergies that have been bread into some of these hybird/non-shed dogs? I was brushing my two in the park the other week "leave the hair back to nature" and had somebody boasting that their ever allergic dog never sheds hair and it was great! Great for them but not great for the poor dog being pumped full of steroids and scratching itself raw!

dr.fuzzenstein

ShaShaBear wrote: »

All I've ever owned are blender dogs. We currently have a border collie crossed with demolition equipment.
I don't have an issue with people paying for pedigree dogs - sometimes the characteristics (physically or mentally) are desired or required (eg working dogs) and cannot be achieved through rescue. If these people source a breeder that works primarily to strengthen the genetics and lineage of the breed (ie only breeding rarely from top champion dogs proven to be shining examples with immaculate bills of health, excellent skeletal structure and the mental disposition of an angel), then fair dues to them. It's the ones who pay similar prices for someone owning one of these dogs who just got Joe Soap down the road to cover their bitch with his likened breed, neither of which have had veterinary care past their yearly jabs (if even that). They could essentially be getting no better than a mongrel in terms of temperament and health and the money is wasted.

Agreed. Your dog sounds intriguing. :pac:

Magenta

I saw an ad for Cavalier x Papillon which are apparently called "Cavillons" and "are from the Cavillon area of France".
There's no such place!!!!! BS.

sillysmiles

Magenta wrote: »

I saw an ad for Cavalier x Papillon which are apparently called "Cavillons" and "are from the Cavillon area of France".
There's no such place!!!!! BS.

Apparently there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavillon

Not saying that the cross is a good idea or that they have any associate with this area, but there is an area in France called Cavillon.

ShaShaBear

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Agreed. Your dog sounds intriguing. :pac:

Do you want him?
He's awesome, I swear :pac:

He just dug a hole in the garden, and when you put your ear to it, you can hear didgeridoos

muddypaws

kylith wrote: »

False logic. The quality of Josh's breeder doesn't mean a thing because we don't know under what circumstances he wound up in the pound. He may have been collected as a stray. If an owner decides to hand a dog to the pound then no amount of reputable breeding or breeder contracts will stop them from doing it. Josh may have had the best breeder in the country but if he escaped, was lost, or was dumped by his previous owner and thus came to the pound has no reflection on his breeder.

Nope, not false logic at all. If he had the best breeder in the country, they will only sell to certain people, and will stay in touch with the owner for the rest of the dog's life. As stated earlier, the one breeder I would get a husky from has never, ever had a dog end up in rescue or a pound. Breed clubs also play a part, as obviously things can happen to people, a breeder may die, or circumstances change drastically so that they can't take the dogs back. A breed club will have a welfare section and will then step up to help.

Unfortunately though, people are liars, and yes you are right, sometimes a breeder will be duped but an unchipped dog ending up in the pound doesn't come from a reputable breeder. I do know of a dog that ended up in the pound, chip was still registered to the breeder, but the pound refused to let the breeder take him back, because they were a breeder. The owner didn't want him anymore due to military commitments. But there was someone trying to do the right thing and not being allowed by the system, because all breeders are bad. :rolleyes: