RWC 2015 - build-up thread

molloyjh

About the only thing we could disagree with Carling on is that England can manage the loss of key players better. Their issues at hooker and at the breakdown illustrate that isn't quite true. Other than that he's pretty much saying things a lot of us have been saying for a while. Our challenge is reliant on certain guys staying fit. POC, Murray and Sexton with SOB and Ross to a lesser degree are all crucial for is. But then how many sides in the competition could lose a couple of key guys in key positions and not feel the impact?

pickarooney

Ryan and Henderson are nowhere near world class. Granted there is a paucity of outstanding locks in the world these days but neither would get a mention in a discussion on the world's top second rows.

I think we're fairly well able to cope without SOB too. For all his good work he doesn't make that many breaks and gives away a lot of penalties. He's brilliant at lifting the crowd and the team though.

flangemeistro

Wang King wrote: »

Will Carling believes Ireland don't have strength in depth
http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/lack-of-depth-is-irelands-achilles-heel-warns-carling-31481443.html

But Jake White does http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/ireland-ideally-positioned-to-lift-the-world-cup-says-jake-white-1.2329744

I know who's opinion i rate.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

I think we're fairly well able to cope without SOB too. For all his good work he doesn't make that many breaks and gives away a lot of penalties. He's brilliant at lifting the crowd and the team though.

Cope without him sure, but he adds a huge amount to the team and whilst he does get pinged, it's because he is over every bloody ball jackling at the breakdown. He doesn't carry as much because that's what he is doing, and doing it as well as anyone in the world. Massive player for us.

flangemeistro

pickarooney wrote: »

Ryan and Henderson are nowhere near world class. Granted there is a paucity of outstanding locks in the world these days but neither would get a mention in a discussion on the world's top second rows.

I think we're fairly well able to cope without SOB too. For all his good work he doesn't make that many breaks and gives away a lot of penalties. He's brilliant at lifting the crowd and the team though.

Ryan is world class but was unlucky with injuries and fell out of the spotlight but I'm confident if he stays fit then he will be rated as world class again following this World Cup.
Henderson will be World Class once he replaces O'Connell.

flangemeistro

flangemeistro wrote: »

Ryan is world class but was unlucky with injuries and fell out of the spotlight but I'm confident if he stays fit then he will be rated as world class again following this World Cup.
Henderson will be World Class once he replaces O'Connell.

I honestly don't ever remember Ryan being "World Class" as in - picked ahead of almost anyone else in the world. I doubt he would even have made a Lions squad to be honest.

Henderson has buckets of potential, and may step up - but let's wait until he is top level international class before we start ranking him as best.

World Class means being in the running to be picked for a world 15. Sexton, Murray, POC, SOB, Heaslip, Healy are really our only players that might make it into the conversation. Oh - and Felix Jones.

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And Marmion.

Teferi

Deleted User wrote: »

I honestly don't ever remember Ryan being "World Class" as in - picked ahead of almost anyone else in the world. I doubt he would even have made a Lions squad to be honest.

Henderson has buckets of potential, and may step up - but let's wait until he is top level international class before we start ranking him as best.

World Class means being in the running to be picked for a world 15. Sexton, Murray, POC, SOB, Heaslip, Healy are really our only players that might make it into the conversation. Oh - and Felix Jones.

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And Marmion.

I cannot believe you left Fanning out of your world class picks.

Agreed though, Ryan is a top level international when fit and on form but doubt he would be in the 'world class' category which is a term that is thrown around a little too easily. I'm guilty of it myself.

aimee1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I honestly don't ever remember Ryan being "World Class" as in - picked ahead of almost anyone else in the world. I doubt he would even have made a Lions squad to be honest.

Henderson has buckets of potential, and may step up - but let's wait until he is top level international class before we start ranking him as best.

World Class means being in the running to be picked for a world 15. Sexton, Murray, POC, SOB, Heaslip, Healy are really our only players that might make it into the conversation. Oh - and Felix Jones.

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And Marmion.

Marmion/Boss surely?

The Lost Sheep

flangemeistro wrote: »

Ryan is world class but was unlucky with injuries and fell out of the spotlight but I'm confident if he stays fit then he will be rated as world class again following this World Cup.
Henderson will be World Class once he replaces O'Connell.

Ryan isn't world class. He was never world class. World class is one of the best in the world in position. Donncha Ryan never was. Good international but not at the level of OConnell etc

smiley_face

Deleted User wrote: »

I honestly don't ever remember Ryan being "World Class" as in - picked ahead of almost anyone else in the world. I doubt he would even have made a Lions squad to be honest.

Henderson has buckets of potential, and may step up - but let's wait until he is top level international class before we start ranking him as best.

World Class means being in the running to be picked for a world 15. Sexton, Murray, POC, SOB, Heaslip, Healy are really our only players that might make it into the conversation. Oh - and Felix Jones.

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And Marmion.

Would add Best and Henshaw to that list, and Toner, POM, Ross are not far off it.

ionadnapokot

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Taking Burgess is mental.

cant get my head around it. He is only going to play 12. He wont start and he wont baench.
England are fast making a mess of their prep. I'm seriously considering backing Fiji in the opening game.

Buer

smiley_face wrote: »

Would add Best and Henshaw to that list, and Toner, POM, Ross are not far off it.

Nah, particularly Ross and Toner who will never be anything more than solid international starters (which is absolutely fine).

The others have flashes but certainly aren't in the conversation for that level at this point. There's an outside argument for POM simply on the basis that I cannot recall a time when blindside has had so few stand-out operators in world rugby.

Pudsy33

ionadnapokot wrote: »

cant get my head around it. He is only going to play 12. He wont start and he wont baench.
England are fast making a mess of their prep. I'm seriously considering backing Fiji in the opening game.

I don't know what the handicap will be but I'll be taking Fiji on it anyways!

28 points, yes please

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

ionadnapokot wrote: »

cant get my head around it. He is only going to play 12. He wont start and he wont baench.
England are fast making a mess of their prep. I'm seriously considering backing Fiji in the opening game.

Burgess admitted after the French match that he still wasn't 100% on all the rules of Union. He said some of the other players had to shout at him a couple of times to stop him giving away penalties or getting carded. He seems like a really big risk to take. If it pays off then they'll look like geniuses but it seems just as likely to end up costing them a match as winning them one.

ionadnapokot

Pudsy33 wrote: »

I don't know what the handicap will be but I'll be taking Fiji on it anyways!

28 points, yes please

Headin straight to d piggy bank

ionadnapokot

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Burgess admitted after the French match that he still wasn't 100% on all the rules of Union. He said some of the other players had to shout at him a couple of times to stop him giving away penalties or getting carded. He seems like a really big risk to take. If it pays off then they'll look like geniuses but it seems just as likely to end up costing them a match as winning them one.

Jesus. That is appalling. Its a farce. & i really thought Lancaster had his head screwed on.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Burgess admitted after the French match that he still wasn't 100% on all the rules of Union. He said some of the other players had to shout at him a couple of times to stop him giving away penalties or getting carded. He seems like a really big risk to take. If it pays off then they'll look like geniuses but it seems just as likely to end up costing them a match as winning them one.

A good coach would have a field day targeting a player like that.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Jesus. That is appalling. Its a farce. & i really thought Lancaster had his head screwed on.

Deleted User wrote: »

A good coach would have a field day targeting a player like that.

The fact that Lancaster seems intent on having him play "out of position" too makes it all the more baffling. He at least has some real game time under his belt at Bath as a forward so you'd assume he has some grip on the game there but to throw him in at centre at international level in a pool with Australia and Wales, well, as you say, Venjur, Gatland and Cheika will have a field day there.

pickarooney

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Cope without him sure, but he adds a huge amount to the team and whilst he does get pinged, it's because he is over every bloody ball jackling at the breakdown. He doesn't carry as much because that's what he is doing, and doing it as well as anyone in the world. Massive player for us.

It seems to me he gets turned over a fair bit when he carries, often gets isolated. He has so many good points to his game that I think he takes too much on at times.

If we come up against England and burgess is playing I'd put Seanie at 12 for the laugh.

Wang King

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Headin straight to d piggy bank

Your missus still looks after your money?

Teferi

The English squad has been announced here.

England 2015 Rugby World Cup squad
Props:
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)

Hookers:
Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)

Second rows:
George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)

Back rows:
James Haskell (Wasps, 60 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)
Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)

Scrum halves:
Danny Care (Harlequins, 52 caps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

Fly halves:
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)

Centres:
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)

Back three:
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 18 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

In beautiful wedding invitation style .....

MJohnston

#CarryThemHome is a perfectly terrible slogan

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

MJohnston wrote: »

#CarryThemHome is a perfectly terrible slogan

#WearTheRose is pretty terrible too.

MJohnston

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

#WearTheRose is pretty terrible too.

True, but #CarryThemHome will be wonderful if they get battered in any of their matches.

molloyjh

MJohnston wrote: »

True, but #CarryThemHome will be wonderful if they get battered in any of their matches.

Sounds like they'll have a few more nights out this time around and will need help getting home.

Celly Smunt

No Hartley!

CatFromHue

MJohnston wrote: »

#CarryThemHome is a perfectly terrible slogan

They are home already....job done!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CatFromHue wrote: »

They are home already....job done!

They can't be home until they've had their big send off at the O2 with Take That.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

They can't be home until they've had their big send off at the O2 with Take That.

Manic aggression, put the fear of God into them, bring that trophy, eh, back for good?

flangemeistro

Looks like peer pressure really does work with the Burgess selection, Christ during the French game the Sky Sports guys had a hard on and were pushing him on us like Coke at an Amy Winehouse funeral!

Yeah_Right

smiley_face wrote: »

Would add Best and Henshaw to that list, and Toner, POM, Ross are not far off it.

Sorry but Henshaw is not in the conversation for world's best 12. Yet.

And Toner, while very good, wouldn't be in the top 5 locks in the world. Maybe top 10.

flangemeistro

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Sorry but Henshaw is not in the conversation for world's best 12. Yet.

And Toner, while very good, wouldn't be in the top 5 locks in the world. Maybe top 10.

Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.

flangemeistro

flangemeistro wrote: »

Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.

This post says more about your perception of Toner and knowledge of the sport than it does about Toner's actual ability.

You won't find many better at disrupting a maul and creating problems for opposition lineout, he passes well off both sides and for a big guy he seems to have a great engine and work rate. He is an ideal balancing act for O'Connell actually and we're damn lucky to have him.

Breakdown merchant he is not, one trick pony he definitely isn't.

Yeah_Right

flangemeistro wrote: »

Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.

I wouldn't go that far. That was my perception of him when he first started playing for Leinster but he has since developed into a very good international rugby player. He is currently the second best lock in Ireland.

The Lost Sheep

flangemeistro wrote: »

Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.

He is far from a one trick pony. His work rate is rather good. Defensive ability in mauls,
He isn't there to dominate the breakdown. Id prefer Donncha Ryan ahead of him but he has to do a lot to get ahead of him considering how long he has been out and Toners good form with Ireland over past season or so

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

flangemeistro wrote: »

Looks like peer pressure really does work with the Burgess selection, Christ during the French game the Sky Sports guys had a hard on and were pushing him on us like Coke at an Amy Winehouse funeral!

People on twitter suggesting Burgess' inclusion in the squad was a done deal from the minute he switched codes. It does seem an odd situation, especially given he was apparently never even in consideration for England in the position he actually plays for Bath in.

PTH2009

How didn't delon armitage even make the premlimary squad ??. He's one of the best players in Europe

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Sorry but Henshaw is not in the conversation for world's best 12. Yet.

And Toner, while very good, wouldn't be in the top 5 locks in the world. Maybe top 10.

Yeah Henshaw has shown a limited skillset so far, due to the game plan he's playing to as much as anything. Defensively he is up there I reckon, but in general he has a good bit more to do to be labelled world class.

As for the Toner conversation I think he's one of those guys who people form an opinion on and then refuse to change it. The guy has developed his game a lot. His work rate is fantastic, his skills at maul and in the choke tackle are pretty obvious and he's got great hands too. All of this on top of his skills in the line-out and solidity in the scrum.

Buer

flangemeistro wrote: »

Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.

News just in: 6'11" lock in not dominating breakdown shocker despite never having had an impact there in his life.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

PTH2009 wrote: »

How didn't delon armitage even make the premlimary squad ??. He's one of the best players in Europe

Parce qu'il joue en France.

Pudsy33

PTH2009 wrote: »

How didn't delon armitage even make the premlimary squad ??. He's one of the best players in Europe

Delon isn't that's good.

Stefan, on the other hand, would be England's best back rower if he played 6, 7, or 8.

Pudsy33

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Delon isn't that's good.

Stefan, on the other hand, would be England's best back rower if he played 6, 7, or 8.

England would have beaten France at the weekend if Stefan was in the squad. He is by far and away the biggest loss to their team.

Followed by Manu Tuilagi. If both were available for selection I'd actually put England as favourites to top their group and there is not many times you could say that about the potential impact of two players.

flangemeistro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This post says more about your perception of Toner and knowledge of the sport than it does about Toner's actual ability.

You won't find many better at disrupting a maul and creating problems for opposition lineout, he passes well off both sides and for a big guy he seems to have a great engine and work rate. He is an ideal balancing act for O'Connell actually and we're damn lucky to have him.

Breakdown merchant he is not, one trick pony he definitely isn't.

IMO as far as Ireland is concerned Toner is not a leader or a very inventive second row and really needs a lot of direction, persuasion and delegation, which is all fine and well as long as Paulie is his Partner in crime because there's no better man to give you all of those in one swift blow but when he's not partnered with Paulie he gets found out and he seems lost.

I reckon after this world cup and next year's six nations we will be seeing a lot less of Toner in the green.

thomond2006

Delon is a very good player and he offers long range goalkicking. His character though is another thing, in a highly charged international game I wouldn't trust him to not cheapshot someone (I believe he did it at the weekend against Racing and the victim Johan Goosen left the field with an injured shoulder).

If he wasn't a card/suspension waiting to happen he would still be playing in England IMO and would be in the England 31.

molloyjh

flangemeistro wrote: »

IMO as far as Ireland is concerned Toner is not a leader or a very inventive second row and really needs a lot of direction, persuasion and delegation, which is all fine and well as long as Paulie is his Partner in crime because there's no better man to give you all of those in one swift blow but when he's not partnered with Paulie he gets found out and he seems lost.

I reckon after this world cup and next year's six nations we will be seeing a lot less of Toner in the green.

I'm sorry, but this is laughable.

Buer

flangemeistro wrote: »

IMO as far as Ireland is concerned Toner is not a leader or a very inventive second row and really needs a lot of direction, persuasion and delegation, which is all fine and well as long as Paulie is his Partner in crime

Like the opener of last season's 6N with POC absent when Toner ran the set piece which we dominated and Ireland hammered Scotland?

flangemeistro

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is laughable.

I'm glad i brightened up your Thursday but this is the way i see it and only time will tell.

aimee1

MJohnston wrote: »

#CarryThemHome is a perfectly terrible slogan

Marketing obviously werent told cipriani was being cut from the squad.

aimee1

Buer wrote: »

Like the opener of last season's 6N with POC absent when Toner ran the set piece which we dominated and Ireland hammered Scotland?

Was that the time POC had man-flu :-SS