Dog is afraid of (some) kids

tk123

I've discovered recently that Lucy is afraid of some kids. Older ones she's fine with and will sit wagging her tail while they pet her but younger/hyper ones terrify her.:(

Last week we bumped into 4 kids on the course of our walk - one asked to pet her but she moved away from him (he was screeching with excitement to pet them :rolleyes:) - he was happy to pet Bailey instead and the mum petted Lucy. Next we met 3 other kids on the course of our walk - she froze on the path when she saw them and wouldn't budge. When they came over shouting "big doggies!!" again she was afraid and moved away.
A few days later I sat near the playground treating and praising her and a little girl asked if she could pet them - she was ok at first then got a bit scared and moved away... Next a toddler came running out and Lucy ended up cowering under the bench

At the weekend she was clipped to the wall with her big brothers while my friend and I were having coffee- she was ok with some calmer kids but when a bratty ones came along looming over her trying to pet her she was terrified. Yesterday we were walking with my friend and her older GR so she made it her business to approach a toddler so her dog could "show Lucy what to do" - she moved away from the toddler when he came towards her but then went to have a sniff of him when his back was turned.

The breeder had 3 kids of varying ages and up until recently she's always been fine with kids - I guess maybe we didn't meet enough of them during her second fear phase and now she's afraid? We don't have any young kids in the family that we'd see regularly and i'm not sure the ones we could see would be the best match for helping Lucy get over her fear.

I don't really want to get into an argument with parents because their kids don't know how to approach dogs and even if I tell them to stay away she's still going to be afraid. We're in the situation where they're both the perfect height for hugs so kids do approach them and it's going to keep happening. I'd really like to help her get over her fear so she can enjoy her walks and enjoy extra cuddles..

Any suggestions?

DBB

Hmmm... it might not be so much related to missing out during her fear imprint phases, it could just be that little ones are more likely to be screechy, loud, physical, and well... a bit scary. So it could be just plain old operant conditioning, small kids= noise and unpleasantness= avoid/hide.
Have you clicker trained her? Maybe spend some time just sitting in the park with her, away from human traffic, and click any interactions, even glances, she has with smaller kids, and gradually close the distance, using very high-value treats? You might also think about desensitising her to kid-noises using recordings, and get known adults to mimic stuff that small kids do so that she is experiencing these things in a non-scary context, and getting well rewarded for it.
Keep her protected from small kids during the process, don't have her confront them until she's happier to do so.

Gongoozler

tk123 wrote: »

I've discovered recently that Lucy is afraid of some kids. Older ones she's fine with and will sit wagging her tail while they pet her but younger/hyper ones terrify her.:(

Last week we bumped into 4 kids on the course of our walk - one asked to pet her but she moved away from him (he was screeching with excitement to pet them :rolleyes:) - he was happy to pet Bailey instead and the mum petted Lucy. Next we met 3 other kids on the course of our walk - she froze on the path when she saw them and wouldn't budge. When they came over shouting "big doggies!!" again she was afraid and moved away.
A few days later I sat near the playground treating and praising her and a little girl asked if she could pet them - she was ok at first then got a bit scared and moved away... Next a toddler came running out and Lucy ended up cowering under the bench

At the weekend she was clipped to the wall with her big brothers while my friend and I were having coffee- she was ok with some calmer kids but when a bratty ones came along looming over her trying to pet her she was terrified. Yesterday we were walking with my friend and her older GR so she made it her business to approach a toddler so her dog could "show Lucy what to do" - she moved away from the toddler when he came towards her but then went to have a sniff of him when his back was turned.

The breeder had 3 kids of varying ages and up until recently she's always been fine with kids - I guess maybe we didn't meet enough of them during her second fear phase and now she's afraid? We don't have any young kids in the family that we'd see regularly and i'm not sure the ones we could see would be the best match for helping Lucy get over her fear.

I don't really want to get into an argument with parents because their kids don't know how to approach dogs and even if I tell them to stay away she's still going to be afraid. We're in the situation where they're both the perfect height for hugs so kids do approach them and it's going to keep happening. I'd really like to help her get over her fear so she can enjoy her walks and enjoy extra cuddles..

Any suggestions?

You've kind of answered yourself there. It seems possible that she wasn't exposed enough, but also as DBB says, she may have just come to learn that small kids = loud noises & poking.

I think it's not a bad idea to have a look at how dogs like to be approached by humans, as it might tell you the things that the kids (and others) are doing that are making her uncomfortable. There's probably quite a few things that you're not seeing.

tk123

DBB wrote: »

Have you clicker trained her? Maybe spend some time just sitting in the park with her, away from human traffic, and click any interactions, even glances, she has with smaller kids, and gradually close the distance, using very high-value treats? You might also think about desensitising her to kid-noises using recordings, and get known adults to mimic stuff that small kids do so that she is experiencing these things in a non-scary context, and getting well rewarded for it.
Keep her protected from small kids during the process, don't have her confront them until she's happier to do so.

Funny I had to walk past the playground earlier (to catch up with my friend :rolleyes:) and thought "if only I had the bloody clicker with me!!" - there's 3 in the bowl on top of the microwave and at least 2 in the car lol!! There was child a crying up ahead of us and I could't get her to focus back to me - wouldn't take any treats and I wondered if the click would distract her away from it. She's not always treat motivated - sometimes she'll take or leave them so a bit trickier with her at times compared to greedy guts Bailey! I'll take a squeaky toy as well I think.

Gongoozler wrote: »

There's probably quite a few things that you're not seeing.

Like the stuff I spotted and listed that you kindly put in bold for me?:o Trust me I'm seeing the cues - I spend a lot of time training my dogs - one of which has "personal space" issues so I know what makes them tick/freaks them out.

Gongoozler

tk123 wrote: »

Funny I had to walk past the playground earlier (to catch up with my friend :rolleyes:) and thought "if only I had the bloody clicker with me!!" - there's 3 in the bowl on top of the microwave and at least 2 in the car lol!! There was child a crying up ahead of us and I could't get her to focus back to me - wouldn't take any treats and I wondered if the click would distract her away from it. She's not always treat motivated - sometimes she'll take or leave them so a bit trickier with her at times compared to greedy guts Bailey! I'll take a squeaky toy as well I think.


Like the stuff I spotted and listed that you kindly put in bold for me?:o Trust me I'm seeing the cues - I spend a lot of time training my dogs - one of which has "personal space" issues so I know what makes them tick/freaks them out.

I'm not really getting the need for snottiness about what I said.

If you could see all the cues, and were reacting appropriately to them, then this wouldn't be a problem.

DBB

C'mon folks... Let's keep it nice

peasant

Stupid question maybe, but ...does she really HAVE TO like all kids?

I'm just thinking that it might be easier to just accept her dislike and shelter her from screechy kids as much as possible than try to make her accept them, get it wrong and have a fear biter on your hands.

After all, small kids can be very unpredictable and not every possible (kiddy) behaviour can be trained for.

Personally I'd rather have a dog that shows the dislike from the start and retreats than one where I'm not sure if it might become aggressive if it gets too much.

A retreating dog sends a message that even small kids will understand, especially when explained to them by the dog owner.
A dog that seems happy at first and then turns is a different story.

tk123

peasant wrote: »

Stupid question maybe, but ...does she really HAVE TO like all kids?

I'm just thinking that it might be easier to just accept her dislike and shelter her from screechy kids as much as possible than try to make her accept them, get it wrong and have a fear biter on your hands.

After all, small kids can be very unpredictable and not every possible (kiddy) behaviour can be trained for.

Personally I'd rather have a dog that shows the dislike from the start and retreats than one where I'm not sure if it might become aggressive if it gets too much.

A retreating dog sends a message that even small kids will understand, especially when explained to them by the dog owner.
A dog that seems happy at first and then turns is a different story.

I agree - she doesn't have to like them... BUT we live within/are regularly passing 3 schools (there's 11 in the area), a GAA club with kids coming and going (*this might be a good spot for training since we can keep a good distance away from them and they're contained by chain link fences lol ) , whatever kid orientated stuff that's happening in the church hall, playgrounds in the parks we walk in. Also they both have great recall so I can take advantage of that and let them off lead - again some of the areas will have kids in them. She's normally so easy going and nothing phases her except this. I don't really want to have her afraid/worried if it's something I can help her with if that makes sense? She's also really really strong - when she's glued to the spot and doesn't want to move it can be hard making her budge!

ShaShaBear

Gongoozler wrote: »

You've kind of answered yourself there. It seems possible that she wasn't exposed enough, but also as DBB says, she may have just come to learn that small kids = loud noises & poking.

I think it's not a bad idea to have a look at how dogs like to be approached by humans, as it might tell you the things that the kids (and others) are doing that are making her uncomfortable. There's probably quite a few things that you're not seeing.

Or sometimes dogs just get grumpy with certain people :P
My Mother-In-Law's collie-corgi cross hates kids between the ages of 2 and 5. Yes, if they are under 2 or over 5 he absolutely loves them. Once they hit 2 and right up until about 5, they are hyper, screechy, imposing and tend to stretch boundaries with regards to what they are actually told to do versus what they would prefer to do. Kojak knows this, and has responded with aggression to children of this age who do not respect his personal space.

As DBB said, trying to encourage her to associate their reasonable distance with nice things might make her feel happier about a gradual approach.
But I've always said that 9/10 times it's the strange kids that need training, not the dog!

If you get approached by a strange dog that runs right at you barking and yelping, you would automatically go on the defensive - it's the sensible thing to do because you are unsure of the dog's intentions. I can't understand why people think that dogs wouldn't feel the same way when someone's unsupervised kids that are not under effectual control try to get in their dog's personal space

I learned the hard way with Shadow that sometimes a dog just has a personality trait and no amount of training will alter it. Sometimes management of the issue is key. But definitely try clicking with kids (and to be honest, I would have no issue, even as a mother, of getting verbally assertive with kids that try to approach Opie on the street. Parents get very offended, but they would probably be more upset if their wee one ended up banging their head on the pavement and being terrified of dogs forever!)

SingItOut

Did a child ever accidentally/or on purpose hurt her? or did the fear just suddenly come over her? my terrier (moone) used to be fantastic with all kids and would snuggle into any that we would meet, we babysat my cousins 4 year old twins one day and they were loud, screeching and very rough with her and she was hiding behind me and trying to jump up into my arms.

She was traumatized for months, anytime she saw any kids she would panic. She was about 2 years old at the time so I don't know if age is a factor, she's 5 now and has completely got over her fear of kids and trusts them again. What I did was keep introducing her slowly to young kids and if any got to rough with her I just told them to be more gentle, it's a bit embarrassing at first but if it stopped her biting or getting hurt then it was worth it. As you know some parents are bloody clueless and won't correct their child around an animal. You're doing everything right with her and I'm sure within a few weeks she will be more confident around kids.

kylith

Rani dislikes people in general and children in particular. Whenever I see a child barrelling towards her I step in between and tell the kid that my dog is afraid of strangers. They seem to understand that.

tk123

SingItOut wrote: »

Did a child ever accidentally/or on purpose hurt her? or did the fear just suddenly come over her? .

One (dark) evening some kids went to pet her and she got afraid - that was the first time it happened. I had her meet my friend's sons who she was fine with and then there just happened to be a little girl helping out at a training class we were doing (it was what she wanted for her birthday) but the child had more cop on than many wannabe trainers I've met and again Lucy was fine with her. She was fine with another walkers daughter last night we met at the traffic lights - she went to the the girl to be petted. So it's not all kids - just the mad ones!

I get what people are saying about telling kids/parents to politely get lost but it's not really feasible in our area or where we walk and is really just fire fighting. Kids are going to keep approaching her so I'd rather help her get over the fear. Also I'd take them to fun shows/expos etc which they both seem to love and again we'd be approached by kids - she's always been fine in these situations.

UPDATE - I tried her this evening with the clicker and it worked really well! I marked every time she looked at a child and then she was in training mode lol so while she was distracted by them and wanted to take a look she wasn't fixed on them wondering what they were going to do. I've a few days off from work around the BH so I might take her past the nearest school when the kids are out for lunch and she what she thinks - the back of it faces the river so she can have a good view but at the same time keep a good distance away.