POC to sign for Toulon

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Because if he goes then he takes what comes with being a professional rugby player for the money he would get paid. If he cant hack the reality of pro sport he shouldnt go.

Will JS resign if ireland play NZ in the world cup QF/final because he doesnt want to beat his homeland?

Well, instead of 1.2m, he might just take 1m.

JS never played for the All Blacks (unlike Wayne Smith who played and coached them).

CatFromHue

jm08 wrote: »

POC would be way too familiar with Munster's intellectual property, their lineout calls for example. (which could adversely affect Munster's business). Effectively, POC would have been training with Toulon's opposition for the last 15 years. Wayne Smith had a restriction on his AB contract for at least a year (while Graham Henry didn't).

I'd imagine POC himself might find some difficulty in playing against Munster. Wayne Smith said that he could never coach a team that could pose a threat to the ABs.

I know the point that Smith is trying to make but he's completely wrong on what happened with Keane and both United and Celtic.

I could be wrong but I think Keane was happy enough when he pulled on the Celtic jersey the first time.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Well, instead of 1.2m, he might just take 1m.

JS never played for the All Blacks (unlike Wayne Smith who played and coached them).

Lol. JS is still a new zealander.

Hilarious stuff.

jm08

awec wrote: »

Loan players are not allowed to play against their parent club in English football. There is a rule against it to stop conflicts of interest arising.

POC is not going on loan and no such rule exists in rugby. There is also no conflict of interest.

And how do you think POC would feel arriving in his home town of Limerick (where he is a Freeman of the City) to beat them.

Toulon might not want to play him anyway because they know his heart wouldn't be in it.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Lol. JS is still a new zealander.
Hilarious stuff.

He has never been an All Black though.

What do you think of Wayne Smith's comments?

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

And how do you think POC would feel arriving in his home town of Limerick (where he is a Freeman of the City) to beat them.

Toulon might not want to play him anyway because they know his heart wouldn't be in it.

Im sure the 50k deposited in his bank account each month would soften the blow. He is a realist with a young family who has several times mentioned how he would like to go to france. Thats the reality of it. If he cant deal with that reality then he retires or sees out his irfu deal.

total former

jm08 wrote: »

I would have thought POC would have had the manners to run it by the Munster management before approaching the IRFU in the first place.

I'm sure he did. But the Munster management would have zero say in the decision to release him. As you well know.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

He has never been an All Black though.

What do you think of Wayne Smith's comments?

JS never being an AB is irrelevant. He is still a NZer.

I think smith is a clown tbh.

Would ogara resign from racing if they draw munster in the ECC next season. He couldnt comeback to thomond and coach a team to beat munster surely? Or does he have a "stay at home" clause if that happens?

Neil3030

jm08 wrote: »

And how do you think POC would feel arriving in his home town of Limerick (where he is a Freeman of the City) to beat them.

Toulon might not want to play him anyway because they know his heart wouldn't be in it.

This really sounds like wishful thinking to me.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

JS never being an AB is irrelevant. He is still a NZer.

I think smith is a clown tbh.

Would ogara resign from racing if they draw munster in the ECC next season. He couldnt comeback to thomond and coach a team to beat munster surely? Or does he have a "stay at home" clause if that happens?

If you don't get why Wayne Smith might not want to coach a team that would challenge the ABs, you are never going to get why POC would not want to turn up in his hometown and beat them.

jm08

Neil3030 wrote: »

This really sounds like wishful thinking to me.

I'm going on what Roy Keane had to say about it which is interesting because Roy Keane didn't leave Manchester United on the best of terms.

Bridge93

We've gone from a speculative, unproven clause that won't happen, to now knowing what Paul O' Connell thinks on the matter and of playing rugby against Munster for whoever employs him. The reality is as much as some would like to think they know, none of us know. The rational idea is that while feeling emotional, he is a pro who will go out and do what he is paid to do, regardless of who it is. I would say he might relish the chance to play in thomond if it arose.
I wonder how Keatley, Jones, Conway etc felt beating Leinster this year?

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

If you don't get why Wayne Smith might not want to coach a team that would challenge the ABs, you are never going to get why POC would not want to turn up in his hometown and beat them.

Its pro sport with limited job opportunities. anyone who denies themselves a chamce to set themselves up with a top job is frankly an idiot.

If he goes to toulon it is for the money. And good luck to him.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

So you would class Wayne Smith as a big cry baby because he wont coach a team that might challenge the ABs?

No.

He'd be a big cry baby if a coached a team that might challenge the ABs but then refused to coach them in a match against NZ.

If POC doesn't want to play against Munster that badly (and I don't for a second believe any of this nonsense) he should stop trying to get out of his contract and keep playing for them.

jm08

Bridge93 wrote: »

We've gone from a speculative, unproven clause that won't happen, to now knowing what Paul O' Connell thinks on the matter and of playing rugby against Munster for whoever employs him. The reality is as much as some would like to think they know, none of us know. The rational idea is that while feeling emotional, he is a pro who will go out and do what he is paid to do, regardless of who it is. I would say he might relish the chance to play in thomond if it arose.
I wonder how Keatley, Jones, Conway etc felt beating Leinster this year?

All we know is that

1) its out there that Munster / POC or the IRFU want a clause that he doesn't play against Munster if he is released from his contract to join Toulon.

2) There is a better chance that POC would not want to play against his old club than if it wouldn't matter if he rocked up to Limerick with the Toulon galacticos and beat the leaving day lights out of the team. Bearing in mind there have been articles in the newspaper (Tony Ward for one) talking about him ruining his Munster legacy if he left in the first place, it doesn't take much imagination that it might not be a situation POC would be happier with. I'm sure there are other clubs in France he could go to where playing against Munster wouldn't be an issue for him.

3. Felix Jones, Keatley hardly played for Leinster and Conway said he was in a rut there and needed to get out, so their experience of Leinster wasn't a good one, unlike POC who has had a very long and successful career with Munster.

4. Of course he is a pro, but he is in the driving seat and can chose his own terms. This is what Roy Keane said about it (when talking to the All Blacks when moving overseas).

“And he went up there [Celtic] but he said as soon as he pulled the shirt over his head he knew that it wasn't a United shirt. And he said, 'Be very clear – if you're going overseas, be very clear that it won't be the All Blacks jersey and you've got to be really certain that you want to go for the money'.”

And Celtic were not even playing against United and he found it difficult even though he was a Celtic fan as a boy.

jm08

CatFromHue wrote: »

I know the point that Smith is trying to make but he's completely wrong on what happened with Keane and both United and Celtic.

I could be wrong but I think Keane was happy enough when he pulled on the Celtic jersey the first time.

His first game for Celtic was a disaster as far as I can remember.

He did say in his most recent biography that he made a mistake and that Everton would have been a better move for him, but he didn't want to play for another English team.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Lol. JS is still a new zealander.

Hilarious stuff.

He was still not an All Black, never worked in the environment and probably at this stage would not have worked with any players who play for the All Blacks.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

All we know is that

1) its out there that Munster / POC or the IRFU want a clause that he doesn't play against Munster if he is released from his contract to join Toulon.

2) There is a better chance that POC would not want to play against his old club than if it wouldn't matter if he rocked up to Limerick with the Toulon galacticos and beat the leaving day lights out of the team. Bearing in mind there have been articles in the newspaper (Tony Ward for one) talking about him ruining his Munster legacy if he left in the first place, it doesn't take much imagination that it might not be a situation POC would be happier with. I'm sure there are other clubs in France he could go to where playing against Munster wouldn't be an issue for him.

3. Felix Jones, Keatley hardly played for Leinster and Conway said he was in a rut there and needed to get out, so their experience of Leinster wasn't a good one, unlike POC who has had a very long and successful career with Munster.

4. Of course he is a pro, but he is in the driving seat and can chose his own terms. This is what Roy Keane said about it (when talking to the All Blacks when moving overseas).

“And he went up there [Celtic] but he said as soon as he pulled the shirt over his head he knew that it wasn't a United shirt. And he said, 'Be very clear – if you're going overseas, be very clear that it won't be the All Blacks jersey and you've got to be really certain that you want to go for the money'.”

And Celtic were not even playing against United and he found it difficult even though he was a Celtic fan as a boy

there is a huge gulf between roy keane and POC. Keane was earning £100k a week, so money isnt an issue for him which is a concept you fail to grasp.

POC appears to have a chance of a big payday in the south of france to finish his career. He should grab it with both hands if he feels he can continue for two more seasons. He is not in the driving seat. He has a contract with IRFU until June 2016. If he wants to go to Toulon he is relying on the IRFU goodwill to get himself to Toulon. The IRFU could simply say no, your staying put. They could expect him to honour the contract if he wants to continue playing.

He wont be worried about what tony ward has to say either. He has a family to provide for and principles wont pay the bills.


Does POC have any issue playing against Leinster/Ulster a few week after winning 6n's with Ireland alongside a lot of lads from those provinces?

sydthebeat

Feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone with this thread. ....

thomond2006

Tony Ward's opinions are as relevant to POC as any opinion on here.

total former

sydthebeat wrote: »

Feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone with this thread. ....

It's like the opera; great craic, highly entertaining, haven't a rashers what is going on.

Podge_irl

I appear to have a higher opinion of POC's professionalism then you so jm. Because I don't believe for a second he would insist on something so petty and ridiculous.

death1234567

jm08 wrote: »

And how do you think POC would feel arriving in his home town of Limerick (where he is a Freeman of the City) to beat them.

Who cares how he would feel, he's supposed to be a professional. Toulon would be asking him to play a game of rugby not murder his own mother. Frank Lampard played against Chelsea this season and there were also (nonsense) rumours that he had a clause in his contract that he couldn't play against them.

Tox56

Podge_irl wrote: »

No.

He'd be a big cry baby if a coached a team that might challenge the ABs but then refused to coach them in a match against NZ.

If POC doesn't want to play against Munster that badly (and I don't for a second believe any of this nonsense) he should stop trying to get out of his contract and keep playing for them.

Interesting that Jm completely ignored this

Mahatma Geansai

If POC's contract is being ripped up so that he can have a pay-day in France, it isn't unreasonable to expect the IRFU to try to limit the damage to Munster.

Munster are losing the best player in the hemisphere and asset worth a minimum of ~€400k /year and can't do anything about it due to the system of central contracts. If the IRFU want the current contracting system to survive without a significant push-back from Munster, they have to find a way of softening the blow; the touted clause might be one way of doing so.

its_phil

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

If POC's contract is being ripped up so that he can have a pay-day in France, it isn't unreasonable to expect the IRFU to try to limit the damage to Munster.

Munster are losing the best player in the hemisphere and asset worth a minimum of ~€400k /year and can't do anything about it due to the system of central contracts. If the IRFU want the current contracting system to survive without a significant push-back from Munster, they have to find a way of softening the blow; the touted clause might be one way of doing so.

He's 35 and no where near €400k in a transfer fee. Also best player in the hemisphere? Leader? Definitely. Player? No chance.

Hope if Henshaw moves next year there is a Connacht clause to soften the blow.....

thomond2006

If the IRFU want to soften the blow, let them give Munster cash to sign someone. All that clause does is punish POC.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

I appear to have a higher opinion of POC's professionalism then you so jm. Because I don't believe for a second he would insist on something so petty and ridiculous.

Your version of professionalism. After the Quins v Munster game in the Stoop when POC made his comeback and it was a very good win for Munster, he said he felt like an amateur player with that win. That would suggest to me and lately he has said that his big regret in his rugby career was that he would have loved to have played in the golden age of the AIL (presumably like Foley, Quinlan, Galwey, Horan & Hayes for Shannon).

Your version of professionalism maybe the new currency, but POC's roots are still in playing for the parish.

its_phil

jm08 wrote: »

And Celtic were not even playing against United and he found it difficult even though he was a Celtic fan as a boy.

Well that's bull seen as Keane was a Tottenham fan

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

Your version of professionalism maybe the new currency, but POC's roots are still in playing for the parish.

Then he should bloody well stay there.

And my version of professionalism is the actual one.

Mahatma Geansai

its_phil wrote: »

He's 35 and no where near €400k in a transfer fee. Also best player in the hemisphere? Leader? Definitely. Player? No chance.

Hope if Henshaw moves next year there is a Connacht clause to soften the blow.....

I'm assuming that POC's contract is ~€400k /year. It is probably a little less than that. POC's value to Munster/Ireland is significantly more than the value of his contract alone, but the value of his contract is an easy way to put a monetary figure on his importance.

If Henshaw's contract is broken and he moves to one of the other provinces, I would have no huge issue with him not being allowed to play against Connacht for the period for which his original contract ran. I'd love to see POC play against Munster, but it isn't unreasonable to disallow him from playing Munster as long as he should be a Munster player; it is the same way that loans usually work.

jm08

its_phil wrote: »

He's 35 and no where near €400k in a transfer fee. Also best player in the hemisphere? Leader? Definitely. Player? No chance.

Hope if Henshaw moves next year there is a Connacht clause to soften the blow.....

I'd imagine Toulon are eyeing up the marketing worth of such an iconic player. ROG said that there are huge question marks over Dan Carter's fitness but Racing reckon they will get their money back on merchandising anyway.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

Then he should bloody well stay there.

And my version of professionalism is the actual one.

Well, he isn't rushing into announcing his decision so maybe he won't be a Toulon player after the world cup after all.

Mahatma Geansai

thomond2006 wrote: »

If the IRFU want to soften the blow, let them give Munster cash to sign someone. All that clause does is punish POC.

Hopefully the IRFU will give Munster cash, but stopping POC from playing against Munster in his first year at Toulon isn't unreasonable. If the IRFU didn't tear up his contract he would still be a contracted Munster player afterall.

Were Leinster unreasonable to forbid Cooney from playing against them for the duration of his loan at Connacht? The POC scenario wouldn't be wholly different.

jm08

its_phil wrote: »

Well that's bull seen as Keane was a Tottenham fan

Its not unusual for Irish people to be a fan of Celtic and an English club - different leagues you know. Some may also have a Spanish club & Italian club that they follow.

I thought Keane was a Liverpool fan - seem to remember him saying that he went to a game there once when he was a kid.

thomond2006

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Hopefully the IRFU will give Munster cash, but stopping POC from playing against Munster in his first year at Toulon isn't unreasonable. If the IRFU didn't tear up his contract he would still be a contracted Munster player afterall.

Were Leinster unreasonable to forbid Cooney from playing against them for the duration of his loan at Connacht? The POC scenario wouldn't be wholly different.

I get what you mean but I completely disagree. Preventing a player from playing just punishes the player and I can't imagine Munster as an organisation would wish that on Paul O'Connell. Maybe it would be different if Munster felt shafted/betrayed by the player but this doesn't appear to be the case. It appears the IRFU will compensate Munster by allocating funds/NIE spot to a replacement and that's reasonable and warranted.

There's a conflict of interest if a loaned out player plays against his 'permanent' team. The POC scenario is very different. It would only be an emotional conflict and an unprofessional one at that. POC is paid to do a job and playing against his old team is far from an understandable exceptional circumstance.

I'll repeat this: If POC requested this, Mourad and Toulon would not sign him.

Podge_irl

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The POC scenario wouldn't be wholly different.

It would most definitely be wholly different because POC would no longer be contracted to the IRFU.

It's not a loan, and its pointless to talk about it in those terms. If the IRFU?Munster/POC don't want the man playing against Munster then they should just not release him from his contract.

Do people understand life?

Mahatma Geansai

Podge_irl wrote: »

It would most definitely be wholly different because POC would no longer be contracted to the IRFU.

It's not a loan, and its pointless to talk about it in those terms. If the IRFU?Munster/POC don't want the man playing against Munster then they should just not release him from his contract.

It depends how it is worked out between the clubs. Maybe the IRFU are looking to loan him for the first year and he will be a Toulon for the second year. Toulon may not want to buy out his contract and pay him the touted €600k /year, and the IRFU may have advertising commitments etc already set up for the final year of his current contract. We don't know.

All I am saying is that it isn't totally unreasonable for the touted clause to be put in place. It is a common part of any loan contract, and this situation isn't all that different than a player who goes on to loan knowing that they will not return to his original club.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

It would most definitely be wholly different because POC would no longer be contracted to the IRFU.

It's not a loan, and its pointless to talk about it in those terms. If the IRFU?Munster/POC don't want the man playing against Munster then they should just not release him from his contract.

I'd guess that POC would be quite happy not to play against Munster.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Do people understand life?

No emmet, do you want to share your understanding of it?

awec

This must honestly be the stupidest rumour about a transfer in years.

total former

jm08 wrote: »

I'd guess that POC would be quite happy not to play against Munster.

"Guess" is the key word there.

So the supreme competitor, the born leader, the man whose will to win has dragged Munster and Ireland over the line on so many occasions, would be happy just to sit at home while his team goes into a massive European game, and hope the other guys can do the job?

This is utter insanity. You weren't long turning on him jm08, I'll say that much for you. He's only just hung up the red jersey and the knives are out.

Podge_irl

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

It depends how it is worked out between the clubs. Maybe the IRFU are looking to loan him for the first year and he will be a Toulon for the second year. Toulon may not want to buy out his contract and pay him the touted €600k /year, and the IRFU may have advertising commitments etc already set up for the final year of his current contract. We don't know.

No we don't. If he is on loan then fine, it's not unreasonable at all.

But let's be realistic here, there is no way the IRFU are paying the guy to play for Toulon so that's not going to happen.

jm08

total former wrote: »

"Guess" is the key word there.

So the supreme competitor, the born leader, the man whose will to win has dragged Munster and Ireland over the line on so many occasions, would be happy just to sit at home while his team goes into a massive European game, and hope the other guys can do the job?

This is utter insanity. You weren't long turning on him jm08, I'll say that much for you. He's only just hung up the red jersey and the knives are out.

My guess is as good as your ''guess''.

POC is going to France for the money/lifestyle. You seriously think he will be able to build up the same bond for his new team as the one he has had with Munster/Ireland in about 2 weeks (which is about how long he could be there before he has to play Munster)?

If you think I'm turning on POC, you haven't a clue.

POC can do whatever he likes. He owes nothing to anyone but himself and his family.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

POC can do whatever he likes. He owes nothing to anyone but himself and his family.

Technically he owes the IRFU another year of playing in Ireland.

total former

jm08 wrote: »

My guess is as good as your ''guess''.

The last few pages suggest otherwise.

POC can do whatever he likes. He owes nothing to anyone but himself and his family.

Finally we agree. He owes nothing to anyone*. He most especially doesn't owe anyone any obligation to sit out potentially crucial European games because it might upset the sensibilities of a tiny number of Munster fans.



*Actually, technically he owes the IRFU another year of service, but anyway...

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

No we don't. If he is on loan then fine, it's not unreasonable at all.

But let's be realistic here, there is no way the IRFU are paying the guy to play for Toulon so that's not going to happen.

He won't be a Toulon player after the world cup unless the IRFU/Munster agree to it.

They hold the chips.

From what ROG has said, Toulon really want him and it would seem they would do anything to get him. They took on Felipe Contepomi even though there was some restriction about how many non-French players they could have in the team (giving him a 4 year deal I think on huge money). He left because he wasn't getting to play enough. I seem to remember it was either Contepomi or Wilkinson. Perhaps Thomond might know what the situation was there.

total former

jm08 wrote: »

He won't be a Toulon player after the world cup unless the IRFU/Munster agree to it.

They The IRFU hold the chips.

FYP there for ya.

Anyway, O'Connell holds some chips too, in that he can just retire. And when you've as much money as Toulon, you can just buy the chips from the guys who hold them.

jm08

total former wrote: »

The last few pages suggest otherwise.



Finally we agree. He owes nothing to anyone*. He most especially doesn't owe anyone any obligation to sit out potentially crucial European games because it might upset the sensibilities of a tiny number of Munster fans.



*Actually, technically he owes the IRFU another year of service, but anyway...

It wouldn't upset me at all. I just think that it would matter to POC and Munster.

Just think of it this way - how do you think Brian O'Driscoll would feel if he moved to Toulon and then had to come back to the away dressing room in the RDS and play against his old partner Gordon D'Arcy?