landsdowne road agreement

techteacher

just watching the news......how will you vote for the newly minted LRA , do you think the unions have let us down again? I believe they think that the extra few euro will buy the government the election as they think we all have very short memories and will forget everything that has happened in the last few years in education.

deiseindublin

Tbh I think that's exactly what'll happen and they'll sail home for another few years!

I'm a bit nervous about the sliding scale, I'd say lots of teachers will have next to no payback, and there will be efficiencies thrown into the mix for good measure!

2011abc

Croke Park and now Landsdowne?!Are they determined to equate sporting venues with misery?Idiots .

phkk

2011abc wrote: »

Croke Park and now Landsdowne?!Are they determined to equate sporting venues with misery?Idiots .

Tolka Park is the next agreement!

TheDriver

Does this have any relation to measures announced in FEMPI that stated it would undone in 2016 etc or the magic s&s payment we were all getting added to payscale??

2011abc

Apparently the main payback isnt until (Sept 2016 and after) theyre re-elected .Hahahahaha!!!!!

km79

s and s "payment"......?
if that disappears now I may explode!

man_no_plan

Full document is here

Your head would spin trying to figure it out. Or maybe it's just me

5.4. The Government has also indicated that it intends to provide in the legislation for a grace period consistent with the term of this Agreement during which both the reduction in pay and any deferral of increment progression provided for under the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act, 2013 will be disregarded.

I cant work that one out

Or this one

5.2. The Parties note that the Government intends to include in the legislation the provisions necessary to commence the process to reduce the pay reductions applied under the FEMPI Act 2013.

Maybe my brain has stopped working!

Are increments on or off?

Also this restates the HRA and extends it.

To my mind, and maybe i'm wrong, HRA will run out soon anyway and pay restoration on that end of things is due to be restored. Increments would be back on too and there would be a restoration to the point we would have been at.

So now we are being asked to take a small pay increase so that we can continue to engage in the extra hours etc?

Surely the sensible move is to reject this, ride out the hra, watch FEMPI disappear and we will be no worse of financially but better off in terms of time?

33 hours at the notional rate of €50/hour is €1650.

How many teachers will get the 2.5% - 0
Many are over 65k - will gain v little either (depending on what is proposed for the pay cut imposed here due to hra, don't get the wording myself this minute)

Who will gain? by how much? at what cost?

gaeilgebeo

A measly payment and no restoration of conditions?
They can take a hike as far as I'm concerned!

gaeilgebeo

A measly payment and no restoration of conditions?
They can take a hike as far as I'm concerned!

ted1

phkk wrote: »

Tolka Park is the next agreement!

Tayto park is next, free crisps for lunch

TheDriver

Under Fempi, over 65k see a pay reduction on their payslips (its an actual minus as opposed to a paycut that isn't illustrated on payslip. So that would be reinstated along with deferred increments being back to normal.
There is still no mention of that addition to our payscale for getting rid of s&s.....

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

Under Fempi, over 65k see a pay reduction on their payslips (its an actual minus as opposed to a paycut that isn't illustrated on payslip. So that would be reinstated along with deferred increments being back to normal.
There is still no mention of that addition to our payscale for getting rid of s&s.....

One would hope that there will be seperate sector specific proposals too and that payment is still there
Otherwise its just mental !

man_no_plan

TheDriver wrote: »

Under Fempi, over 65k see a pay reduction on their payslips (its an actual minus as opposed to a paycut that isn't illustrated on payslip. So that would be reinstated along with deferred increments being back to normal.
There is still no mention of that addition to our payscale for getting rid of s&s.....

In what circumstances?

TheDriver

In all circumstances I would think, its written in FEMPI legislation. Hence why these talks give rises up to 65k because they get money back under FEMPI which only took money from over 65k

man_no_plan

So the other elements of HRA continue but the pay reduction is discontinued?

We could do with a couple of case studies to show the impact on salaries.

It was because there was talk about focussing on low pay that I assumed the over 65k would remain as it is

TheDriver

Everyone needs to benefit from the rises in the same way that everyone got cut at some stage. At least its through PRD and not meddling with the payscale. The croke parks are always going to be around in some form, governments have spent too much time getting them there to just get rid of them

ytareh

TheDriver wrote: »

The croke parks are always going to be around in some form, governments have spent too much time getting them there to just get rid of them

Yeah , just like Irish Water .Way too much passive acceptance on part of teachers has resulted in decimation of conditions over recent years .Not so much that we're not prepared to fight the hard fight but actually the ludicrous situation that on repeated occassions we have surrendered from positions of considerable strength .

TheDriver

With pay on the table, most wont even bat an eyelid at continuing these hours

acequion

The last congress I went to was in 2013 when we were supposedly fighting Croke Park 2,which later morphed into HR. I remember one of the speakers from astifightback calling the agreements Croke Park X and explaining very plausibly why these agreements were for the long term, hence CP 1,2,3,4 becoming an interminable CP X. A dark vision of the education system in Ireland,all too soon becoming reality.:(

acequion

ytareh wrote: »

Yeah , just like Irish Water .Way too much passive acceptance on part of teachers has resulted in decimation of conditions over recent years .Not so much that we're not prepared to fight the hard fight but actually the ludicrous situation that on repeated occassions we have surrendered from positions of considerable strength .

Could not agree more,ytareh. And in the process of surrendering from strength we have turned the profession from an interesting job where you made a difference and were respected,even admired, to at best, something like a low- mid range,office worker in a dead end job, or at worst, glorified babysitters with stressful targets and responsibility for everything, ie doormat.

When I told a friend the other day about the new JC proposals,he replied expectantly."But what are ye getting out of it?

That's the biggest joke and sums up just how far we have fallen!

katydid

TheDriver wrote: »

With pay on the table, most wont even bat an eyelid at continuing these hours

Except they won't be just continuing. They will be more hours and more "productivity" demanded.

acequion

katydid wrote: »

Except they won't be just continuing. They will be more hours and more "productivity" demanded.

All the more reason to vote them down while we have the chance.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

All the more reason to vote them down while we have the chance.

I agree, but I think the majority will take the money and run.

Alex Meier

Croke Park extended

Haddington Road extended.

You have to laugh at those at the teaching conferences who were proposing motions to get rid of the Croke Park hours.

Benicetomonty

TUI recommend their members reject the agreement unless extra hours are removed.

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0603/705535-teachers/

katydid

Benicetomonty wrote: »

TUI recommend their members reject the agreement unless extra hours are removed.

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0603/705535-teachers/

And rightly so. It's not the one or two hours concerned, it's the principle of the matter. Those measures were forced on us under emergency legislation, the emergency is over.

techteacher

tui can see there is an opportunity here as we know enda wants back in, what do you think the vote will be as things stand?

ethical

Rowing back .....as the emergency is over!
Teachers are going to have to work longer hours and get less.This has been the case over the past 5 or 6 years and its not going to change anytime soon.
Principals are now taking it upon themselves to draw up the Croke Park hours whereas it should be a case of all staff having an input (as it was when said hours first appeared).Also the workload on teachers has grown out of all proportion over the past few years and this is noticeable in the sick leave which has grown steadily particularly in the last year to 18 months.Of course this plays into the Governments hands.How long can the profession continue like this?How long before we have a responsible approach to educating our children? .......and Kenny thinks that he will be elected again!

Inspector Coptoor

INTO recommend a yes vote.

Plus ca change, eh Shiela Nunan?

Alex Meier

ethical wrote: »

Rowing back .....as the emergency is over!
Teachers are going to have to work longer hours and get less.This has been the case over the past 5 or 6 years and its not going to change anytime soon.
Principals are now taking it upon themselves to draw up the Croke Park hours whereas it should be a case of all staff having an input (as it was when said hours first appeared).Also the workload on teachers has grown out of all proportion over the past few years and this is noticeable in the sick leave which has grown steadily particularly in the last year to 18 months.Of course this plays into the Governments hands.How long can the profession continue like this?How long before we have a responsible approach to educating our children? .......and Kenny thinks that he will be elected again!

The Croke Park hours are here to stay.

The Haddington Road hours are here to stay.

Heck we're even doing the 12 hours of Circular 58/2004 . . . .

mirrorwall14

To be honest I've no idea why any of the unions would be advocating a yes vote without serious concessions. The reality is that FEMPI is on its last legs, it's already pretty dodgy ground claimin a financial emergency when having a giveaway budget. HR is to finish in 2017 anyways. Why on earth would we sign up to another agreement when there's absolutely nothing in it for us? We're due the Pension Levy to be removed anyways

Alex Meier

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

To be honest I've no idea why any of the unions would be advocating a yes vote without serious concessions. The reality is that FEMPI is on its last legs, it's already pretty dodgy ground claimin a financial emergency when having a giveaway budget. HR is to finish in 2017 anyways. Why on earth would we sign up to another agreement when there's absolutely nothing in it for us? We're due the Pension Levy to be removed anyways

Haddington Road finishes on June 30 2016

This LRA extends HR to 2018 it seems.

doc_17

I was surprised at the rejection recommendation to be honest from the TUI. Are we bind by an aggregate vote of ictu?

man_no_plan

doc_17 wrote: »

I was surprised at the rejection recommendation to be honest from the TUI. Are we bind by an aggregate vote of ictu?

Is that not the 'TUI Problem'?

As someone else said the extra hours only arrived as part of the Croke Park agreement. If it expires then they have no basis to continue.

Pay cuts and pension levy were part of FEMPI. It is on thin ice at the minute, Brendan Howlin will tell you that.

I think the danger is the s&s. That is to be taken into account in future pay negotiations according to the HRA. if that is used to put the 33 hours on a permanent footing we may forget it. Remember that that has already been promised and is due but with strings attached.

We would be in a better position to unwind these hours, or at least minimise them if we rejected the new deal that's not a deal.

I don't think many teachers will gain in real terms from this.

katydid

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

To be honest I've no idea why any of the unions would be advocating a yes vote without serious concessions. The reality is that FEMPI is on its last legs, it's already pretty dodgy ground claimin a financial emergency when having a giveaway budget. HR is to finish in 2017 anyways. Why on earth would we sign up to another agreement when there's absolutely nothing in it for us? We're due the Pension Levy to be removed anyways

I don't understand why they are saying we will get €2,000 back. Most teachers will be over the €30,000 where that will kick in. So there's basically nothing in it for us.

katydid

doc_17 wrote: »

I was surprised at the rejection recommendation to be honest from the TUI. Are we bind by an aggregate vote of ictu?

Gerry Quinn was on the radio yesterday, and he said we weren't. I'm delighted they are showing some cojones at last. Why would anyone vote for something that is of no benefit to them?

If there were something productive, like allowing the extra hours to be used more flexibly, such as for personal CPD at a time of your choosing, people wouldn't resent them so much. We all do extra work anyway; having it recognised, rather than thrown in our face, would go a long way.

doc_17

katydid wrote: »

I don't understand why they are saying we will get €2,000 back. Most teachers will be over the €30,000 where that will kick in. So there's basically nothing in it for us.

Can you explain your calculation there? Are people over 30k not getting a rise? I thought it was a claw back on the pension levy and everyone would get it.

katydid

doc_17 wrote: »

Can you explain your calculation there? Are people over 30k not getting a rise? I thought it was a claw back on the pension levy and everyone would get it.

From what I understand - and I'm sure I understand it right - the pay back and the pension levy will be scaled heavily towards the lower paid. Under 25k, slightly less for under 30K, and even less as you move up the scale.

It's absolutely right that those on such low pay should get more back, but it means that most teachers, other than part timers, would be above the limit, and what we would get back would be minimal.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the pension levy that is the disgrace, and should be abolished immediately. It's simply daylight robbery; we pay our pension contributions, and yet we have to pay a levy for having the pension system in the first place. And even people in non-pensionable employment have to pay it.

The USC and the Pension Levy are just inventions to take more money off us without calling it tax.

doc_17

The threshold on which the levy applies increases from 15 to 25k. I'd imagine that applies to all teachers? So we won't pay the levy now on as much of our income, or at least as high a rate on it.

katydid

doc_17 wrote: »

The threshold on which the levy applies increases from 15 to 25k. I'd imagine that applies to all teachers? So we won't pay the levy now on as much of our income, or at least as high a rate on it.

That's true. But it's not going to make a huge difference, as far as I see. It's still blatant daylight robbery

TheDriver

i thought the cut off was that you pay it on all your income if you went over the threshold?

mirrorwall14

IMO saying vote no too. We're not on our own. Be interesting to see who else comes out

man_no_plan

TheDriver wrote: »

i thought the cut off was that you pay it on all your income if you went over the threshold?

I think you only pay it on the amount of your income over the new threshold.

political analyst

Alex Meier wrote: »

The Croke Park hours are here to stay.

The Haddington Road hours are here to stay.

Heck we're even doing the 12 hours of Circular 58/2004 . . . .

What is Circular 58/2004 about? I've never heard of it.

political analyst

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

To be honest I've no idea why any of the unions would be advocating a yes vote without serious concessions. The reality is that FEMPI is on its last legs, it's already pretty dodgy ground claimin a financial emergency when having a giveaway budget. HR is to finish in 2017 anyways. Why on earth would we sign up to another agreement when there's absolutely nothing in it for us? We're due the Pension Levy to be removed anyways

Surely, if the unions had challenged FEMPI pay-cuts in the courts, the judiciary would have had to rule solely on whether or not the pay-cuts were constitutional and thus disregard the economic situation.

Alex Meier

political analyst wrote: »

What is Circular 58/2004 about? I've never heard of it.

This is a circular from 2004 which was part of the reform given for a recent small increase in benchmarking at the time (which has long since been wiped out).

It involved half staff meetings/parent teacher meetings taking place outside of normal school time.

It was the circular which initially brought PTMs into the evenings

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

Surely, if the unions had challenged FEMPI pay-cuts in the courts, the judiciary would have had to rule solely on whether or not the pay-cuts were constitutional and thus disregard the economic situation.

Possibly yes, but that's all a bit shouldawouldacoulda.

deiseindublin

Have ASTI made any comment on LRA yet?

Benicetomonty

deiseindublin wrote: »

Have ASTI made any comment on LRA yet?

No. CEC not meeting until August I think.

deiseindublin

That's a long way off! Hope they recommend a big fat NO.