The Irish language is failing.

Bored_lad

Reiver wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/kate-shannon-ware-kerry-ireland-deportation-irish-speaking-children-2136598-Jun2015/

Irish speaking kids being deported is currently popular in the Journal.

Completely irreverent just because you can speak Irish doesn't mean we should ignore the fact you are an illegal immigrant who came on a three month tourist visa years ago. If they really wanted to stay they should have went through the proper procedures to get visas.

Knasher

Bored_lad wrote: »

If they really wanted to stay they should have went through the proper procedures to get visas.

Granted that the story is only from their prospective, but it does sound like they made a genuine effort to follow the proper procedures. It seems a little weird that the GNIB can renew your permission to stay, but if they do then the INIS will use that as grounds to kick you out.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Knasher wrote: »

Granted that the story is only from their prospective, but it does sound like they made a genuine effort to follow the proper procedures. It seems a little weird that the GNIB can renew your permission to stay, but if they do then the INIS will use that as grounds to kick you out.

True, but again - irrelevant. Start new thread.

Carlos Orange

Knasher wrote: »

Granted that the story is only from their prospective, but it does sound like they made a genuine effort to follow the proper procedures.

Even from their perspective it sounds like he was working here illegally.

Kev W

psinno wrote: »

Why wouldn't they pay for it. Sure it is our national dance. It would be a shame if our kids couldn't do the Irish dance. Everyone else is doing it.

They can dance if they want to.
They can leave their friends behind.

briany

There'll always be the problem that Irish is a rock hard language to learn for people who are primarily used to speaking English. My own post secondary attempts to (re)learn Irish tend to end in head-scratching over the fact that, for example, there's no reliable form of the infinitive verb. There are rules, but those rules are so often broken. Every time I try to master even simple grammatical concept, I'm confronted with dizzying colour-coded lists of rules, slender endings, broad endings etc. etc. . Trying to learn through text is difficult for a lot of people, because it's easily overwhelming and discouraging, which is why I would like to see a proper spoken course that breaks things right down into the fundamentals and builds it up. That or short text-based "rules of thumb".

Best thing I've seen in this regard is Pimsleur, but that, and I'm not exaggerating, spends about a half an hour on one short exchange and is quite robotic in feel.

dlouth15

There's very little research on how much Irish is actually spoken in Ireland. Most of the figures quoted are from the census questionaire where people are asked if they speak Irish. But no effort is made to define what "speak Irish" actually means. It could mean carrying out a fluent conversation or it could just mean using a stock phrase here and there. And what is having knowledge of Irish? Most people in Ireland can't speak Irish in any meaningful sense of the word but they would have some knowledge of it. It could mean passing pass Irish in the leaving or group cert.

Research could be conducted on how much people actually know of the language and how much it is actually used. Standard linguistic research.

But it is not in the interest of either Government or language activists do do this as it would be too much of a reality check.

Instead the numbers speaking Irish on a daily basis on the Conradh na Gaeilge website includes 450,000 simply because they are pupils in schools in a country where daily Irish classes are compulsory.

In no way are school pupils attending classes in any way equivalent to genuine speakers of a language. I did French every day at school but I was never a daily speaker of French. This sort of distortion only applies in the highly politicized realm of Irish language activism.

FunLover18

dlouth15 wrote:

There's very little research on how much Irish is actually spoken in Ireland. Most of the figures quoted are from the census questionaire where people are asked if they speak Irish. But no effort is made to define what "speak Irish" actually means. It could mean carrying out a fluent conversation or it could just mean using a stock phrase here and there. And what is having knowledge of Irish? Most people in Ireland can't speak Irish in any meaningful sense of the word but they would have some knowledge of it. It could mean passing pass Irish in the leaving or group cert.

ERSI did a survey a couple of years back. AFAIK respondents were asked how often they use the language 60% said never, the remaining 40% was divided amongst daily, weekly, etc. I'm rounding the figures and can't link on my phone but it's a very interesting report.

Shep_Dog

FunLover18 wrote: »

ERSI did a survey a couple of years back. AFAIK respondents were asked how often they use the language 60% said never, the remaining 40% was divided amongst daily, weekly, etc. I'm rounding the figures and can't link on my phone but it's a very interesting report.

Was that the 'ESRI' survey which was not written, published or analysed by the ESRI, but was simply conducted by them under contract? I seem to recall that one was written by a very enthusiastic Irish speaker and the results were published personally and not by the ESRI. I think it contained an endorsement from Conradh?

Interesting maybe, but not independent.

dlouth15

FunLover18 wrote: »

ERSI did a survey a couple of years back. AFAIK respondents were asked how often they use the language 60% said never, the remaining 40% was divided amongst daily, weekly, etc. I'm rounding the figures and can't link on my phone but it's a very interesting report.

I would be interested in seeing that but even there it seems to be based on self-reporting and what to speak Irish actually means. My father used to use an Irish phrase most days but at the same time he didn't speak Irish.

If you ask someone if they "speak French", many people even though they may have done the subject at school and maybe passed an exam will say no. I did the subject at school and passed the Leaving cert but I don't "speak French" on the basis that if I went to France I could not understand French as it is spoken by French people to each other and could not converse freely with them outside of very basic phrases.

Likewise, even though I know some Irish phrases having done the subject at school, I don't "speak Irish". Now there are many that pepper their English conversation with Irish phrases. They are speaking Irish on a daily basis in a narrow sense of the word. But these surveys tend not to distinguish between these two meanings.

A proper linguistic survey would have people not merely asking but also observing the extent to which Irish is used in Ireland on a daily basis. They would be engaging with people to see the extent of their language ability as well as seeing whether Irish was actually being used on the ground.

But I have not seen the report so I stand to be corrected.

jackofalltrades

Somebody on a previous "Irish language" thread posted a link, to a video shot in St. Stephen's Green Shopping Centre.
In the video a man made an announcement over the intercom in Irish that he was giving away €10 to anyone who came up to him.
I think in total three maybe four people came up to him, in a busy shopping centre.

I know it's not scientific, but it shows just how few people understand even the most basic of phrases.

Trojan Donkey

If our government really wanted us to learn Irish, it should have been the only language used by teachers in every subject in school.

I'm talking about reversing the system. The priorities of both Irish and English should switch.

It know it would be a big step since the majority of the population speaks only English. But after a while it would work. After all, English is supposedly a lot harder to learn than Irish. If a person from, for example, Japan came into the country and had absolutely no English or Irish, Irish would be easier to learn than English.
All teachers should speak Irish when teaching any subject. Sure, isn't listening to a language being spoken a great way to pick up words?

Please answer me this. Why should ANYONE have to learn Chinese? I have never heard that statement before. Could someone let me in on it?

FunLover18

Yeh that must be the one. Have you read it? The presentation of the results is definitely skewed, and I've seen the results misrepresented but there's no hiding how damming they actually are, especially when compared with previous results. It is very interesting.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

If our government really wanted us to learn Irish, it should have been the only language used by teachers in every subject in school.

I'm talking about reversing the system. The priorities of both Irish and English should switch.

It know it would be a big step since the majority of the population speaks only English. But after a while it would work. After all, English is supposedly a lot harder to learn than Irish. If a person from, for example, Japan came into the country and had absolutely no English or Irish, Irish would be easier to learn than English.
All teachers should speak Irish when teaching any subject. Sure, isn't listening to a language being spoken a great way to pick up words?

Please answer me this. Why should ANYONE have to learn Chinese? I have never heard that statement before. Could someone let me in on it?

Been through this. Forcing it on people doesn't work, primarily because the desire isn't there amongst parents and kids. Forcing it even harder will just make people reject it more.

People want to learn Chinese because they think it will be an important business langauge in the future. They are unlikely to be correct.

Trojan Donkey

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

People want to learn Chinese because they think it will be an important business langauge in the future. They are unlikely to be correct.

NO! NO! NO!

No one should have to learn how to draw squiggles on a page and then make funny noises to represent those squiggles! Not to mention read those squiggles backwards.

Why would it be an important business language?
Why would we have to learn their language?
So, many English speaking countries will have to start learning Chinese just so they can do business with one country called China?
Why can't China learn English?
China isn't even good for business. It produces a lot of goods cheaply because there are slaves working in sweatshops.

Whoever came up with that idea should be shot.
This is one of those times when the no racism rule is annoying. :mad:

Un Croissant

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

NO! NO! NO!

No one should have to learn how to draw squiggles on a page and then make funny noises to represent those squiggles! Not to mention read those squiggles backwards.

Why would it be an important business language?
Why would we have to learn their language?
So, many English speaking countries will have to start learning Chinese just so they can do business with one country called China?
Why can't China learn English?
China isn't even good for business. It produces a lot of goods cheaply because there are slaves working in sweatshops.

Whoever came up with that idea should be shot.
This is one of those times when the no racism rule is annoying. :mad:

????

Trojan Donkey

Un Croissant wrote: »

????

!!!!

dr.fuzzenstein

Adamocovic wrote: »

I hope this is sarcastic ha

Call it a thought experiment.

Grayson

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

NO! NO! NO!

No one should have to learn how to draw squiggles on a page and then make funny noises to represent those squiggles! Not to mention read those squiggles backwards.

You do realise that describes every language.

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

Why would it be an important business language?
Why would we have to learn their language?
So, many English speaking countries will have to start learning Chinese just so they can do business with one country called China?
Why can't China learn English?
China isn't even good for business. It produces a lot of goods cheaply because there are slaves working in sweatshops.

Typing this on a new fangled compute or smartphone? Most of it was probably made in China.
That's not to say that learning chinese will magically make someone employable but it is a good skill. Trade with china will still increase. It is a marketable skill. Unlike Irish. People have listed many benefits to having Irish but getting a job wasn't one.

btw, loads of chinese learn english. Obviously they're more accommodating than you.

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

Whoever came up with that idea should be shot.
This is one of those times when the no racism rule is annoying. :mad:

Move to china if you want a government that executes people.

btw, the racism rule is there for a reason. To stop mindless racist drivel.

Shep_Dog

FunLover18 wrote: »

Yeh that must be the one. Have you read it? The presentation of the results is definitely skewed, and I've seen the results misrepresented but there's no hiding how damming they actually are, especially when compared with previous results. It is very interesting.

It was a few years ago, it contained many truths, but the questions were carefully crafted to avoid unpleasant answers. The analysis tried to put a positive spin on things and it was sufficiently 'culturally correct' to get Conradh's endorsement.

FunLover18

Trojan Donkey wrote:

Why would it be an important business language? Why would we have to learn their language? So, many English speaking countries will have to start learning Chinese just so they can do business with one country called China? Why can't China learn English? China isn't even good for business. It produces a lot of goods cheaply because there are slaves working in sweatshops.

No one is forcing anyone to learn Chinese

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

NO! NO! NO!

No one should have to learn how to draw squiggles on a page and then make funny noises to represent those squiggles! Not to mention read those squiggles backwards.

Why would it be an important business language?
Why would we have to learn their language?
So, many English speaking countries will have to start learning Chinese just so they can do business with one country called China?
Why can't China learn English?
China isn't even good for business. It produces a lot of goods cheaply because there are slaves working in sweatshops.

Whoever came up with that idea should be shot.
This is one of those times when the no racism rule is annoying. :mad:

That's the logic - I never said it was sound.

People think education is solely about training for employment - which is unfortunuate and narrow-minded - and in this case they would have a point: learning a langauge that is internationally spoken would be more practical than learning Irish.

dissed doc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Been through this. Forcing it on people doesn't work, primarily because the desire isn't there amongst parents and kids. Forcing it even harder will just make people reject it more.

People want to learn Chinese because they think it will be an important business langauge in the future. They are unlikely to be correct.

No-one is making anyone learn Chinese. But, if two non-Chinese people are looking to close a deal in China, whoever speaks Mandarin will have an advantage. Just like the much vaunted "English speaking" of Irish people in getting business in the US or UK. Speaking the language of the person who you want to do business with, is a major advantage, and crying about why can't they learn English will not go far, *IMHO!!*

Likewise, if you speak German, chances are, the employment and business opportunities open up considerably more opportunities with German companies, than for someone who only speaks English.

Trojan Donkey

FunLover18 wrote: »

No one is forcing anyone to learn Chinese

耶的波浪線！讓我們來迫使整個世界來寫，看起來像狗屎的話！我喜歡麵條！

Listen to the audio for Chinese translations on Google Translate. How the **** do you expect someone to learn that?

Trojan Donkey

That Chinese I put in my last post was originally:

Yay for squiggly lines! We should force the entire world to write words that look like sh*t! I like noodles!

But when I translated the Chinese translation back to English it became:

Yeah wavy line! Let's force the entire world to write, looks like dog feces, then! I love pasta!

WTF IS THIS BS?!?

EDIT: The Chinese word for f*ck sounds like "Her mother".

Iwasfrozen

dissed doc wrote: »

No-one is making anyone learn Chinese. But, if two non-Chinese people are looking to close a deal in China, whoever speaks Mandarin will have an advantage. Just like the much vaunted "English speaking" of Irish people in getting business in the US or UK. Speaking the language of the person who you want to do business with, is a major advantage, and crying about why can't they learn English will not go far, *IMHO!!*

Likewise, if you speak German, chances are, the employment and business opportunities open up considerably more opportunities with German companies, than for someone who only speaks English.

Point taken. What country speaks Irish?

Trojan Donkey

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Point taken. What country speaks Irish?

Australia.

Grayson

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Point taken. What country speaks Irish?

If I remember correctly there's a very small Irish speaking population in Argentina.
They also have a small town where everyone speaks welsh.

Icepick

tipparetops wrote: »

pointless post of the week.
Our primary school teachers can barely speak Irish, where would get the spanish teachers from.

That's still not a reason to teach Irish.

tipparetops

Icepick wrote: »

That's still not a reason to teach Irish.

New bizarre post of the week.
Just because you personally cannot learn the language, we should stop teaching it in our schools.

Dan_Solo

Banjoxed wrote: »

Think the problems that the Irish language have are too deep seated for it to matter a damn who the minister is. Generations of us under all governments were taught the language badly and left school with no love for what was an obligation.

Are there any circumstances under which Irish language promoters will accept people just don't want to speak Irish?

dr.fuzzenstein

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

耶的波浪線！讓我們來迫使整個世界來寫，看起來像狗屎的話！我喜歡麵條！

Listen to the audio for Chinese translations on Google Translate. How the **** do you expect someone to learn that?

I'm German, Irish sounds the same to me.

dr.fuzzenstein

dissed doc wrote: »

No-one is making anyone learn Chinese. But, if two non-Chinese people are looking to close a deal in China, whoever speaks Mandarin will have an advantage. Just like the much vaunted "English speaking" of Irish people in getting business in the US or UK. Speaking the language of the person who you want to do business with, is a major advantage, and crying about why can't they learn English will not go far, *IMHO!!*

Likewise, if you speak German, chances are, the employment and business opportunities open up considerably more opportunities with German companies, than for someone who only speaks English.

I work in tech support for EMEA and it simply is impossible to do it all in English.
We've not have yet had a call requesting an Irish speaker, but maybe next year.
Sweden and Holland have no problems, Germans are a mixed bag but France, Italy and Spain are impossible without native language support.
If you were to say to them "English, MoFo!" they would hang up and take their business elsewhere.

But I'm still holding out hope for Esperanto!

briany

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

We've not have yet had a call requesting an Irish speaker, but maybe next year.

I heard Blathnaid Ní Chofaigh likes to do her business in Irish whenever possible.

Aineoil

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sweden and Holland have no problems, Germans are a mixed bag but France, Italy and Spain are impossible without native language support.

dr Fuzzstein

That statement is very true according to my experiences. Italians can be a mixed

bag too. Younger Italians (younger than 30 ish) have a lot more English.

whisky_galore

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are there any circumstances under which Irish language promoters will accept people just don't want to speak Irish?

If you're Irish and don't want to speak the language you must be some sort of racially impure freak "West Brit".:D

tipparetops

whisky_galore wrote: »

If you're Irish and don't want to speak the language you must be some sort of racially impure freak "West Brit".:D

no just lazy/oafish

Grayson

tipparetops wrote: »

no just lazy/oafish

And people say that fluent speakers don't have a superiority complex.

tipparetops

Grayson wrote: »

And people say that fluent speakers don't have a superiority complex.

Is is like the mafia, take care of our own.:)

Grayson

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I work in tech support for EMEA and it simply is impossible to do it all in English.
We've not have yet had a call requesting an Irish speaker, but maybe next year.
Sweden and Holland have no problems, Germans are a mixed bag but France, Italy and Spain are impossible without native language support.
If you were to say to them "English, MoFo!" they would hang up and take their business elsewhere.

But I'm still holding out hope for Esperanto!

Nearly 15 years working in tech support for EU markets and I've never heard anyone ask for Irish service.

The one time I've heard of something like that was when a guy got arrested and demanded an Irish translator. He spoke English, he was just a dick.

tipparetops

Grayson wrote: »

Nearly 15 yeas working in tech support for EU markets and I've never heard anyone ask for Irish service.

The one time I've heard of something like that was when a guy got arrested and demanded an Irish translator. He spoke English, he was just a dick.

I did my driving test in Irish, oh happy days. ;)

whisky_galore

tipparetops wrote: »

Is is like the mafia, take care of our own.:)

Well, it is a sort of racket alright.

dr.fuzzenstein

tipparetops wrote: »

I did my driving test in Irish, oh happy days. ;)

That's actually impressive.
Did you pass?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

no just lazy/oafish

The idea that people who can't learn it, or just aren't nterested? If the first, how do you know, if they second, I call hypocrit - again.

tipparetops

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That's actually impressive.
Did you pass?

My brother passed as well and he is a dreadful driver.
Reasons to learn Irish if you get follow.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The idea what people who can't learn it, or just arent; interested? If the first, how do you know, if they second, I call hypocrit - again.

why a hypocrite of all things.

RecordStraight

tipparetops wrote: »

no just lazy/oafish

Anybody who has a different view to this poster is either lazy or an oaf.

Logic.

323

Trojan Donkey wrote: »

If our government really wanted us to learn Irish, it should have been the only language used by teachers in every subject in school.

I'm talking about reversing the system. The priorities of both Irish and English should switch.

It know it would be a big step since the majority of the population speaks only English. But after a while it would work. After all, English is supposedly a lot harder to learn than Irish. If a person from, for example, Japan came into the country and had absolutely no English or Irish, Irish would be easier to learn than English.
All teachers should speak Irish when teaching any subject. Sure, isn't listening to a language being spoken a great way to pick up words?

Please answer me this. Why should ANYONE have to learn Chinese? I have never heard that statement before. Could someone let me in on it?

Like many, don't care one way or the other. But as to the first paragraph above, I don't believe it would work.

I was fluent even before national school. Irish was the only language allowed inside the school grounds all my time there, reinforced with a piece of gas hose and brass tipped ruler.

Spoke it in Irish class through secondary school. Then probably spoke it a dozen times after my Irish oral about 25 years ago. OK, was abroad for a few of those years, where I became fluent in Spanish and reasonable with French, by listening to them as you say.
That's the problem with Irish that few seem to want to admit, its not been spoken. For the last 12 years or so I live a couple of mile from the gaeltacht and could count on my fingers the number of times I have heard the language.

Don't believe Irish is failing OP, it has already failed and no amount of money thrown at it will change anything.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

why a hypocrite of all things.

The idea that people should either be inteerrested in something, or are "oafish".

Un Croissant

tipparetops wrote: »

I did my driving test in Irish, oh happy days. ;)

Jaysus, I did mine in a car. Fair play to you.