The Irish language is failing.

dr.fuzzenstein

Un Croissant wrote: »

Jaysus, I did mine in a car. Fair play to you.

De nada. I did mine in German!

mickstupp

At this point I'm more interested in learning a bit of Polish. I've met many nice people from Poland who've made this country their home.

Adamocovic

Damn Irish..THEY RUINED IRELAND!!

dr.fuzzenstein

mickstupp wrote: »

At this point I'm more interested in learning a bit of Polish. I've met many nice people from Poland who've made this country their home.

You mean girls? :P:cool:

Un Croissant

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You mean girls? :P:cool:

When learning another language we always mean girls.

Reiver

mickstupp wrote: »

At this point I'm more interested in learning a bit of Polish. I've met many nice people from Poland who've made this country their home.

Now there is a tough language. But it is most definitely possible. I'd say there are courses now in Ireland?

Don't let yourself give up too soon, it's a bit mental at first but you'll start to get your head around it in no time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You mean girls? :P:cool:

You could be on to something there... If girls find Irish sexy and are willing to put out for it...

This could work...

kowloon

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Annual Irish bashing thread.

Annual?!

dr.fuzzenstein

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You could be on to something there... If girls find Irish sexy and are willing to put out for it...

This could work...

Good enough for me! I'm already signed up for a course and halfway out my pants.
Now where is dem girls at?

Adamocovic

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You could be on to something there... If girls find Irish sexy and are willing to put out for it...

This could work...

That's how to get people speaking it again!
"Irish the language of love"
Secondary Schools should just teach pickup lines! Its brilliant

whisky_galore

Adamocovic wrote: »

That's how to get people speaking it again!
"Irish the language of love"
Secondary Schools should just teach pickup lines! Its brilliant

Attempts at "getting down with the kids" rarely work.

Banning it would be far more effective, they'll speak it just to be awkward and rebellious.

whisky_galore

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The idea that people should either be inteerrested in something, or are "oafish".

I consider anyone that isn't interested as I am in 12th century Gregorian chant as 'oafish'.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The idea that people should either be inteerrested in something, or are "oafish".

But how does that make me a hypocrite, I am interested in something and I am not oafish/lazy.
I am a truth teller, anyone who refuses to learn our language should be called out for what they are - touched,lazy,oafish etc.

jimgoose

tipparetops wrote: »

But how does that make me a hypocrite, I am interested in something and I am not oafish/lazy.
I am a truth teller, anyone who refuses to learn our language should be called out for what they are - touched,lazy,oafish etc.

Ye Irisígí types were always completely in awe of ye'reselves. :pac:

PopePalpatine

tipparetops wrote: »

But how does that make me a hypocrite, I am interested in something and I am not oafish/lazy.
I am a truth teller, anyone who refuses to learn our language should be called out for what they are - touched,lazy,oafish etc.

It isn't my language, nor that of 90-95% of the people in this country.

tipparetops

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It isn't my language, nor that of 90-95% of the people in this country.[/QU


There is many reasons for learning Irish,
here's one that you might understand - the contacts you make and the doors those contacts open.

whisky_galore

tipparetops wrote: »

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It isn't my language, nor that of 90-95% of the people in this country.[/QU


There is many reasons for learning Irish,
here's one that you might understand - the contacts you make and the doors those contacts open.

I'm happy for you. Same could be said for many other group activites and pastimes. You don't have a monopoly.

PopePalpatine

tipparetops wrote: »

There is many reasons for learning Irish,
here's one that you might understand - the contacts you make and the doors those contacts open.

All too often with Irish, that means "jobs for the boys".

Grayson

tipparetops wrote: »

But how does that make me a hypocrite, I am interested in something and I am not oafish/lazy.
I am a truth teller, anyone who refuses to learn our language should be called out for what they are - touched,lazy,oafish etc.

So the last 4 years spent working full time, getting degrees in Philosophy and maths and a masters in Business makes me oafish.......



Guess I'd better throw the Heidegger and Rousseau in the bin then and start learning another dead language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

But how does that make me a hypocrite, I am interested in something and I am not oafish/lazy.
I am a truth teller, anyone who refuses to learn our language should be called out for what they are - touched,lazy,oafish etc.

That in itself us a lazy opinion to hold. Many people simply want to do other things and put lots if time and hard work into these pursuits.

To simply dismiss them instantly as lazy or in some way 'oafish' is, in itself, lazy and oafish. You have not put any effort into considering this, you have not investigated this. You have no idea who you are talking about, nor are you interested in making the effort to learn.

That's lazy.

dr.fuzzenstein

Adamocovic wrote: »

That's how to get people speaking it again!
"Irish the language of love"
Secondary Schools should just teach pickup lines! Its brilliant

Great. What's Irish for "Babe, I wish you were a door, so I could bang you all day long"?

Adamocovic

tipparetops wrote: »

But how does that make me a hypocrite, I am interested in something and I am not oafish/lazy.
I am a truth teller, anyone who refuses to learn our language should be called out for what they are - touched,lazy,oafish etc.

Some people want to learn Irish some don't. Calling people oafish or lazy because they don't study something you have an interest in is just ridiculous.

Regardless to how Irish it is, do you expect the entire nation to play hurling, football, irish dancing, uilleann pipes etc all because it is to do with our country rather than because they have an interest in it?

I love our language and wish it was spoken more but that opinion is just awful. It's a persons choice to learn it or not, there is no point getting a false sense of superiority because you are able to speak Irish.

whisky_galore

Adamocovic wrote: »

Regardless to how Irish it is, do you expect the entire nation to play hurling, football, irish dancing, uilleann pipes etc all because it is to do with our country rather than because they have an interest in it?

There was crowd that wanted just that, great bunch of lads...

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/ailtiri-na-haiseirghe-irelands-fascist-new-order/

Un Croissant

I do sometimes think "what a twat" when I hear people speaking Irish. I won't lie. It's in me somewhere. I was born in England. Maybe it's a superiority complex.

Although that is a generalisation, some of them are definitely twats.

Adamocovic

Un Croissant wrote: »

I do sometimes think "what a twat" when I hear people speaking Irish. I won't lie. It's in me somewhere. I was born in England. Maybe it's a superiority complex.

Although that is a generalisation, some of them are definitely twats.

They might be saying the same about you for all you know :pac::pac:

Un Croissant

Adamocovic wrote: »

They might be saying the same about you for all you know :pac::pac:

They'd probably be right for saying it too alas, I don't expect relations to improve. This thread is a reflection of wider society. The vast majority of people saying "yeah, I'd love to speak it. We should look into improving it" and then the tiny minority going on about blood and west brit and first languages as if languages exist outside of the population and come with the land.

Adamocovic

Un Croissant wrote: »

They'd probably be right for saying it too alas, I don't expect relations to improve. This thread is a reflection of wider society. The vast majority of people saying "yeah, I'd love to speak it. We should look into improving it" and then the tiny minority going on about blood and west brit and first languages as if languages exist outside of the population and come with the land.

It's more of a thread of people complaining about whether someone knows the language or not more so than how we could improve it :pac:

astrofool

Thing is, usually once you learn another language, there is now a whole new group of people that you can communicate with.

When people learn Irish, they get to communicate with the same bunch of people they could always communicate with anyway.

Un Croissant

astrofool wrote: »

Thing is, usually once you learn another language, there is now a whole new group of people that you can communicate with.

When people learn Irish, they get to communicate with the same bunch of people they could always communicate with anyway.

Or make everyone uncomfortable as they feel a deep sense of shame

briany

Un Croissant wrote: »

They'd probably be right for saying it too alas, I don't expect relations to improve. This thread is a reflection of wider society. The vast majority of people saying "yeah, I'd love to speak it. We should look into improving it" and then the tiny minority going on about blood and west brit and first languages as if languages exist outside of the population and come with the land.

Once the term "West Brit" is introduced into a debate, you know any chance of even discussion is pretty much gone. It's a snide last-resort term and suggestions that you move in with Fintan O'Toole can't be far behind. "West Brit" seems to be to Irish people what "Oreo" or "Bounty" would be to black people in the US or the UK when they have the supposed temerity to "act white" (whatever that means). These kinds of terms (there's probably a name for them) are just there to belittle one side and inflict a cultural guilt. It goes on on both sides with words like "Gaeliban" in effect. None are acceptable or contribute anything worthwhile.

There is an assumption on the part of some that it is the cultural duty of an Irish person to learn Irish, even though it is a decidedly minority language. This is wrong because it assumes the language should have the same meaning to a person in Dublin as it does in Galway. Culture is not blanket or uniform and you have to take into account the history of a particular region. Irish has been hard to find in the area historically known as the Pale for hundreds of years.

Put it this way, Ireland was pretty much a Christian country 400 or 500 years after it being introduced. Regions of Ireland that have been speaking mainly English for the same amount of time could be considered natively English speaking. If there's no time limit on when a cultural aspect becomes endemic to a region, couldn't the argument also be made that Celtic Polytheism should be promoted with a view to it making a comeback?

boardise

The project for the revival of Gaelic never had the remotest prospect of succeeding as anyone with a knowledge of sociolinguistics would know.
A process of language shift had been in train for centuries before Independence-it didn't matter what schemes were set up thereafter.
Trying to reverse a language shift is somewhat akin to trying to stop an avalanche.
The quality of schoolteaching was immaterial and it's merely another revivalist delusion that if some ideal curriculum was skilfully taught by dedicated teachers -Gaelic would come flooding back among the population at large...even as native speakers were continually moving to English.

A few further brief points.

Countless millions have been and still are being wasted on this wretched Gaelic revival.
The latest is the booklet that came with the water bills -24 pages of Gaelic gobbledygook happily and pointlessly produced by civil servants
Here's a sample ...
* damáiste do réadmhaoin a tháinig aníos go
heisiach
or how about
*Déantar foráil do thosca mar ar féidir Téarmaí...a tharscaoileadh.

This nonsense is given out to over 1 1/2million houses in the country by all state agencies several times a year and for referendums etc. Nearly 40,000,000 extra pages for the water billing alone.

The main group who gain from continuing the insane policies being pursued is the band of professional revivalists who wheedle control of state money for their own benefit and that of their offspring who can get nice non-jobs in soft areas like media -not forgetting translation.
The revivalists give out contradictory messages . One minute they're telling the government Gaelic is absolutely flying -and they instance Gaelscoileanna ,census figures etc. Next minute the story is that Gaelic is dying and that this sad fate can only be avoided by -yes, you guessed it-the granting of yet more money and resources to the various existing revival bodies and the creation of a batch of new ones for good measure.
The ludicrous article in the Constitution that proclaims Gaelic to be the First official language of the state should be amended. English should be the only official language with Gaelic being recognised as a language of special cultural significance or some such wording.

Adamocovic

boardise wrote: »

The ludicrous article in the Constitution that proclaims Gaelic to be the First official language of the state should be amended. English should be the only official language with Gaelic being recognised as a language of special cultural significance or some such wording.

I could be wrong, as I havent read the constitution in some time :pac:, but I was under the opinion that English is recognised as our primary, or first language, and Irish is recognised as the national language?

As someone who likes the language its sad seeing so many people wanting to rid it but that's their opinion and theyre valid to it. I'm all for changes like not making it mandatory in secondary school, or reducing the spending, as I think it could be thought better and improved with even reduced more select spending on people who are passionate to learn it rather than a broad spending to a lot people who arent.

I would just find it sad to let it fade or die completely. I know people can say this or that to me about the cost and how it's not practically used in todays times but I can't change how I feel just like people who are completely against it can't.

whisky_galore

boardise wrote: »

Countless millions have been and still are being wasted on this wretched Gaelic revival.

The most pointless thing I've seen are coolant filler locations on Bus Eireann buses marked in Irish. Seriously, wtf, for two reasons...1. it's not even signage intended for the general public and 2. if you're a mechanic and can't find where to top up coolant without a sign, you're in the wrong job!

boardise

Article 8.1 of the Irish Constitution-

The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

The situation is even worse when it emerges that the Gaelic wording of the constitution (itself apparently a translation of the English) is the version that must be given primacy if an ambiguity ofinterpretation arises...a truly unnerving prospect.

briany

Has anyone attempted to engage this topic as gaeilge? In a way this whole discussion is a microcosm of the decline of Irish. Even the most ardent supporters that I've seen in this thread are speaking in English, so they're feeding into the problem, as they see it, by meeting English speakers on their terms.

whisky_galore

briany wrote: »

Has anyone attempted to engage this topic as gaeilge? In a way this whole discussion is a microcosm of the decline of Irish. Even the most ardent supporters that I've seen in this thread are speaking in English, so they're feeding into the problem, as they see it, by meeting English speakers on their terms.

There's an Irish language version of AH, but that'd be like preaching to the converted.

Adamocovic

briany wrote: »

Has anyone attempted to engage this topic as gaeilge? In a way this whole discussion is a microcosm of the decline of Irish. Even the most ardent supporters that I've seen in this thread are speaking in English, so they're feeding into the problem, as they see it, by meeting English speakers on their terms.

I think it would be kind of rude and pointless to argue about it in Irish when the majority can't speak it. I wouldnt call it feeding into the problem.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

briany wrote: »

Has anyone attempted to engage this topic as gaeilge? In a way this whole discussion is a microcosm of the decline of Irish. Even the most ardent supporters that I've seen in this thread are speaking in English, so they're feeding into the problem, as they see it, by meeting English speakers on their terms.

Against the AH charter to post in a languge other than English unless you accompany it with a translation, for obvious reasons: debate would be impossible.
(EDIT - Not specifically against the charter, it would apear -could have sworn it was - but definitely will attact moderator attention)

This has been known to elicit cries of "where's my freedom?" in the past, ironically from peopel who want to force their language onto an entire nation.

Carlos Orange

boardise wrote: »

The situation is even worse when it emerges that the Gaelic wording of the constitution (itself apparently a translation of the English) is the version that must be given primacy if an ambiguity ofinterpretation arises...a truly unnerving prospect.

The worst part if that there is a contradiction in the current constitution.

Icepick

tipparetops wrote: »

New bizarre post of the week.
Just because you personally cannot learn the language, we should stop teaching it in our schools.

Will you stop with your childish pointless insults?

It shouldn't be compulsory. You can learn whatever you want.

boardise

Some other points pertinent to various earlier posts.

a) There is no Gaeltacht in any real sense and probably has not been for the last half century. A report published around 30 years ago revealed that the areas regarded in official fiction as Gaeltachtaí were not cohesive organic communities but rather a collection of scattered networks.
Laughable example -if you drive down the N17 between Tuam and Claregalway a roadside sign will inform you that you are entering a 'Gaeltacht'. It's as much a Gaeltacht as Ballyragget. Incidentally no sign exists to say you have exited from this linguistic never-never land....for all we know the Gaeltacht extends on southwards to CapeTown ,Antarctica and beyond until it loops back again to Tuam.

b) the standard of Gaelic spoken in so-called Gaeltachtaí is degenerate .

c) The standard of Gaelic elsewhere is lamentable.
Here's an instructive instance of what's going on -given to me by a lecturer in a training college.
A student ( shortly to be a teacher) was doing a translation exercise from English to Gaelic.
They came to the term 'lead singer' and produced 'luaidhe amhránaí'.
Clearly they went to a dictionary and sought the headword 'lead'. What they found was the word 'luaidhe' for the metal designated by the chemical symbol Pb. Not having the first clue what they're doing they plop it in to the slot for 'lead' meaning 'first 'or 'principal'.
Examples like this can be multiplied to the Nth degree and many have been published as examples of the
raddled form of Gaelic evinced by products of Gaelscoileanna Lord help us.
No matter where you look or how you turn it -Gaelic is now in a feeble state .Its sounds have been mangled ,its idiomatic structure has been diluted and it has not the lexical resources to describe the contemporary world nor has it a critical mass of native speakers.
For these and other reasons one can't compare Gaelic to languages like French , German ,Spanish etc.
These languages feature tens of millions of native speakers -many of them monoglot. This provides stability for the grammar on the one hand and on the other it gives the capacity for change that will be controlled and non-volatile. When language learners go to the countries where these languages are spoken they can be immersed in and enthralled by the diversity of cultural experiences available in large vibrant cities. In Gaelic -they get to go to hamlets or villages on the west coast of Ireland.

An Ciarraioch

briany wrote: »

Has anyone attempted to engage this topic as gaeilge? In a way this whole discussion is a microcosm of the decline of Irish. Even the most ardent supporters that I've seen in this thread are speaking in English, so they're feeding into the problem, as they see it, by meeting English speakers on their terms.

Sin é an aidhm a bhí agam nuair a scríobh mé post ar an snáthaid seo - dearcadh níos dearfach i leith an teanga a chruthú, ach de réir fianaise an treo a chuaigh an cómhrá ina dhiaidh sin, ní dóigh liom gur aithrigh meon aigne amháin.

That was my intention when I posted on this thread - an attempt to create a more positive outlook in relation to the language, but judging by the direction that the conversation has taken sin, it seems not one poster's mindset has changed.

dlouth15

boardise wrote: »

A student ( shortly to be a teacher) was doing a translation exercise from English to Gaelic.
They came to the term 'lead singer' and produced 'luaidhe amhránaí'.
Clearly they went to a dictionary and sought the headword 'lead'. What they found was the word 'luaidhe' for the metal designated by the chemical symbol Pb. Not having the first clue what they're doing they plop it in to the slot for 'lead' meaning 'first 'or 'principal'.

Reminds me of Mary Coughlan calling the Greens (as in Green Party) "Na Glasraí" (the vegetables) a few years ago.

d2ww

Un Croissant wrote: »

They'd probably be right for saying it too alas, I don't expect relations to improve. This thread is a reflection of wider society. The vast majority of people saying "yeah, I'd love to speak it. We should look into improving it" and then the tiny minority going on about blood and west brit and first languages as if languages exist outside of the population and come with the land.

"The vast majority" really??

Dan_Solo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Sin é an aidhm a bhí agam nuair a scríobh mé post ar an snáthaid seo - dearcadh níos dearfach i leith an teanga a chruthú, ach de réir fianaise an treo a chuaigh an cómhrá ina dhiaidh sin, ní dóigh liom gur aithrigh meon aigne amháin.

That was my intention when I posted on this thread - an attempt to create a more positive outlook in relation to the language, but judging by the direction that the conversation has taken sin, it seems not one poster's mindset has changed.

That's nonsense. Why would your arguments be any more convincing in Irish than in English?

dlouth15

Less chance that the logic will be scrutinized if it is made in a minority language and therefore allows the maker of the argument to remain convinced of its merits.

briany

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's nonsense. Why would your arguments be any more convincing in Irish than in English?

Interesting point. One of the oft pointed out benefits of learning Irish is the chance to access new modes of thought and expression. That there could be concepts in Irish that simply cannot be expressed in English may be true (it's true of most languages) but are they concepts that have much relevance to today?

Put it another way - we already have one collection of words we can use to describe our thoughts and feelings, and quite adequately as well. That isn't to promote the idea of English monolingualism, because there's a good practical reason to learn languages for the sake of communication, but as we know, there are precious few instances throughout the land where learning Irish for the sake of better facilitating communication is worthwhile. A smattering of settlements on the west coast seems to be the most optimistic estimate.

So what are we left with? Well, the Irish language is full of prose, poetry and song, and it offers, for some, a chance to feel closer to their heritage or enhance their identity. A reason for learning? Sure, if you want to enrich yourself that way, but some people also don't particularly care for prose, poetry or song in English, never mind Irish. You know them, or you meet them everyday. For some people, their identity is not defined by the same parameters as it is for others, and they don't particularly give much thought to their heritage. Does that make them bad people or ignorant? If you place a lot of stock in those kinds of values, it can make them seem that way, but you have to also recognise that we're supposed to be living in a free society where people can have differing cultural opinions.

dr.fuzzenstein

briany wrote: »

Has anyone attempted to engage this topic as gaeilge? In a way this whole discussion is a microcosm of the decline of Irish. Even the most ardent supporters that I've seen in this thread are speaking in English, so they're feeding into the problem, as they see it, by meeting English speakers on their terms.

It is a very valid point and I can't disagree with it. Just that I couldn't be part of this riveting debate.

An Ciarraioch

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's nonsense. Why would your arguments be any more convincing in Irish than in English?

The poster was asking for someone to come on here and make their case in Irish, the next person said such a post would need to be bilingual, and no-one else seemed to be taking up the challenge.

Dan_Solo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The poster was asking for someone to come on here and make their case in Irish, the next person said such a post would need to be bilingual, and no-one else seemed to be taking up the challenge.

But... and? Why should I care if you try to make some point in both Irish and English? If you translated it into Mongolian, Aramaic and Klingon too it wouldn't make the argument itself any more convincing.