The Irish language is failing.

briany

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The poster was asking for someone to come on here and make their case in Irish, the next person said such a post would need to be bilingual, and no-one else seemed to be taking up the challenge.

Not so much that, but that even the most pro-Irish posters were making their case in English. As I see it, there's a tacit recognition that English is the language of communication in this predominantly Irish online community, to the point where no other language is really tolerated on boards besides the ones dedicated to languages, even though Irish is, constitutionally, the first language of Ireland. That doesn't say much for the relevance of Irish as a modern, 21st century language.

Grayson

briany wrote: »

Not so much that, but that even the most pro-Irish posters were making their case in English. As I see it, there's a tacit recognition that English is the language of communication in this predominantly Irish online community, to the point where no other language is really tolerated on boards besides the ones dedicated to languages, even though Irish is, constitutionally, the first language of Ireland. That doesn't say much for the relevance of Irish as a modern, 21st century language.

It's a good point. There is a tiny Irish sub forum but it's definitely a minority forum.

Aineoil

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It is a very valid point and I can't disagree with it. Just that I couldn't be part of this riveting debate.

I did post in Irish on another thread a long time ago. People didn't appreciate it.

Fair enough you wouldn't be part of the debate.

LordSutch

Grayson wrote: »

It's a good point. There is a tiny Irish sub forum but it's definitely a minority forum.

And for all we know there might already be a parallel discussion about this topic in the Irish forum, alas most of us wouldn't even know of its existence such is the low level of Irish speakers/posters.

Cold War Kid

I wouldn't agree with it being forced on people, but I wouldn't like to see Irish die, or Welsh, or Ulster Scots (I have a feeling *certain* folks who dismiss the Irish language would sing a different tune about Ulster Scots).

Something doesn't have to be utilitarian to be kept alive.

Aineoil

Well here's my two cents again.

The curriculum from Junior Infants to Sixth Class is conversation based.

It's difficult to implement in an English speaking medium school for two reasons

1. The time allocation to the subject is quite small overall.
2. Lack of interest.

It's not the teaching of Irish that's the problem. It's the fact that we speak English and we have no need to learn it.

I love Irish, I love the sound of it and the richness of it.

But I think the time has come to change things. Irish shouldn't be compulsory. You now have a situation in Ireland where people want a good

result in Irish because it counts for the Leaving Cert. That doesn't help the Irish language either.

We need a new subject on the curriculum - Irish Culture.

Irish Culture could consist of a few Irish phrases, history of the language, ......literature/history/songs and poetry.

We're never going to speak Irish as a nation.

briany

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with it being forced on people, but I wouldn't like to see Irish die, or Welsh, or Ulster Scots (I have a feeling *certain* folks who dismiss the Irish language would sing a different tune about Ulster Scots).

Something doesn't have to be utilitarian to be kept alive.

I dismiss Ulster Scots on the basis of it being a mere dialect of English and therefore having no place in that list.

Totally agree that something shouldn't be utilitarian to be kept alive, to be relevant. You study such things at University, as optional subjects in secondary school, or indeed as an extra-curricular/free-time activity.

Grayson

Aineoil wrote: »

We're never going to speak Irish as a nation.

That's unfortunately true. And this might sound like I'm hypocritical but I do think it's a shame. However I'm still not willing to learn it. I might think it's a shame but not enough to put in all the hours needed to learn it.

However it's such a toxic political subject that I can't see anything being done about it.

LordSutch

Grayson wrote: »

That's unfortunately true. And this might sound like I'm hypocritical but I do think it's a shame. However I'm still not willing to learn it. I might think it's a shame but not enough to put in all the hours needed to learn it.

However it's such a toxic political subject that I can't see anything being done about it.

Indeed, and when Fine Gael tried to do something about it (see post #485) there was uproar! Hence we're stuck in some kind of "loop" whereby the state is forced by popular demand to keep Irish compulsory while at the same time the public at large refuse to learn and speak the language that they demand to be compulsory in school

RecordStraight

LordSutch wrote: »

Indeed, and when Fine Gael tried to do something about it (see post #485) there was uproar! Hence we're stuck in some kind of "loop" whereby the state is forced by popular demand to keep Irish compulsory while at the same time the public at large refuse to learn and speak the language that they demand to be compulsory in school

Welcome to Ireland.

You'll notice we also demand that the government puts a hospital in every parish and free water, and goes mad if you try to cut anything or raise taxes to pay for it.

Dan_Solo

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with it being forced on people, but I wouldn't like to see Irish die, or Welsh, or Ulster Scots (I have a feeling *certain* folks who dismiss the Irish language would sing a different tune about Ulster Scots).

Something doesn't have to be utilitarian to be kept alive.

Well TBH I haven't heard a single person in any Irish language thread say they (seriously) wanted Irish to die out. The point is you can't force other people to do something for no other reason than that you yourself like doing it.

Adamocovic

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well TBH I haven't heard a single person in any Irish language thread say they (seriously) wanted Irish to die out. The point is you can't force other people to do something for no other reason than that you yourself like doing it.

I think most people here agree in secondary school it should be optional. Saying that I have seen some people say it's pointless, shouldn't be taught, etc which not directly gives the impression they would be fine with it fading away or dying out.

I can't say for certain I've seen people say they want it to die out here as i wouldn't be 100 percent sure (I'd have to scout through a lot of pages to check :P).

I think people get worried when they see the language losing interest. It's completely up to the person whether they want to learn it or not but people who like the language and get a certain sense of pride that its uniquely ours get worried when they see talk about cutting its spending, reducing its teaching etc. Both are understandably.

I am on the side where I like the language and want it to do well, but at the same time I feel making it optional in secondary school would be beneficial for everyone. It would reduce spending (class sizes, teachers), peopel with no interest aren't forced to do it and in so generate a negative image of the language (honestly if youre forcd to do something you dont like will gain some disdain for it) and finally more time can be spent teaching those with a passion to learn it and in so improve their irish greatly.

I also feel the teaching emphasis should be changed to more of a conversational approach. We seem to teach it like we teach English (a language we speak everyday), poems to review and learn, plays to review and learn, books to review and learn. In English thats fine, but it's more important in my mind to teach how to speak the language usefully. You don't see people in French/German/Spanish class studying French poems, plays, books, they study things thant can help them speak it (although no perfect courses in my view)

I think they would be able to reduce the funding and make it work eve. It's all about the right sort of funding not the total. At the moment they are spending a lot but is it helping? Surely they should revisist it and with less spending overall but more at better areas, maybe conversational classes, irish speaking football and hurling camps etc. All in all they need to sit down and change the structure of the teaching and promoting.

dlouth15

LordSutch wrote: »

Indeed, and when Fine Gael tried to do something about it (see post #485) there was uproar! Hence we're stuck in some kind of "loop" whereby the state is forced by popular demand to keep Irish compulsory while at the same time the public at large refuse to learn and speak the language that they demand to be compulsory in school

More like it was the organised Irish language lobby rather than the public at large.

whisky_galore

dlouth15 wrote: »

More like it was the organised Irish language lobby rather than the public at large.

The very reason Irish will not die out as such; rather it will live on in a half-life as a poorly translated pidgin version in official govt documents, as a money spinner for educators/Gaelscoileanna and to maintain Gaeltacht area status and as a language enthusiast's plaything.

Dan_Solo

Adamocovic wrote: »

I think most people here agree in secondary school it should be optional. Saying that I have seen some people say it's pointless, shouldn't be taught, etc which not directly gives the impression they would be fine with it fading away or dying out.

Actually it doesn't unless you insist on being paranoid. There's plenty of cultural things I would personally prefer did not disappear, but do I want to drop my own job and become and actor, musician or mime? Cultural things are for people to make up their mind about personally. Nobody else's business really.

Adamocovic wrote: »

I can't say for certain I've seen people say they want it to die out here as i wouldn't be 100 percent sure (I'd have to scout through a lot of pages to check :P).

Which is in itself its own answer. If you went through every post here and found a few, would that alter the point substantially?

Adamocovic wrote: »

I also feel the teaching emphasis should be changed to more of a conversational approach. We seem to teach it like we teach English (a language we speak everyday), poems to review and learn, plays to review and learn, books to review and learn. In English thats fine, but it's more important in my mind to teach how to speak the language usefully. You don't see people in French/German/Spanish class studying French poems, plays, books, they study things thant can help them speak it (although no perfect courses in my view)

I don't buy this. People simply don't want to speak Irish because they already have a 100% functioning language guaranteed to do the job with everybody they meet and the vast majority of the media they consume. People in France or Sweden don't speak in English to each other no matter how good they are at it because they're better at communicating in their native tongue. And no, in Ireland that isn't Irish.

Adamocovic

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Actually it doesn't unless you insist on being paranoid. There's plenty of
cultural things I would personally prefer did not disappear, but do I want to
drop my own job and become and actor, musician or mime? Cultural things are for
people to make up their mind about personally. Nobody else's business really.

For the first part I am not saying I personally feel that way every time someone says that the language is useless or unnecessary but would you not agree that some people with a love for it would consider that as them saying they don't mind seeing it fade away?

Dont quite understand the mime actor statement. Could you explain it a bit to me? I was just saying it should be optional in secondary school. Do you think it shouldnt be an option at all?

Which is in itself its own answer. If you went through every post here and found
a few, would that alter the point substantially?

It wouldnt alter my point, you just said they you never saw anyone in the Irish threads saying they dislike it so much they would want it to die, I was just saying I couldnt remember if there was any posts like that, but I do know people in person who say they wouldn't care if it did so I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't buy this. People simply don't want to speak Irish because they already
have a 100% functioning language guaranteed to do the job with everybody they
meet and the vast majority of the media they consume. People in France or Sweden
don't speak in English to each other no matter how good they are at it because
they're better at communicating in their native tongue. And no, in Ireland that
isn't Irish

I don't think you can generalise everyone like that. Surely there are some people who have no interest in learning it, as I and you have said, but I do believe that there are others who had an interest but found it tough in school so didnt pursue it. I feel the structure of the teaching has an effect on this. Not that crazy of a statement I dont think.

And I actually am living and working in France currently and a lot of the times the people here when talking to each other in French will use English words or sentences occasionally in the middle of when they are speaking french (To themselves not me). Just little things like "Let me know", "As soon as possible" etc. I asked before why and most said they don't know while others say its a habit or just easier to say sometimes than in French. Now I am not saying we will do the same (though occasionally some people I know throw an irish word or sentence when talking) I am just making the point about them.

Un Croissant

d2ww wrote: »

"The vast majority" really??

"Really?" Yes.

Dan_Solo

Adamocovic wrote: »

For the first part I am not saying I personally feel that way every time someone says that the language is useless or unnecessary but would you not agree that some people with a love for it would consider that as them saying they don't mind seeing it fade away?

I agree 100% that some people most definitely are considering it as an attack on the Irish language itself. This doesn't alter the fact that it isn't though. There are untold numbers of cultural things worldwide I have no opinion on either way. Would you assume I want them all to disappear because I am not aware of them, actively promoting them or advocating forced usage of them?

Adamocovic wrote: »

Dont quite understand the mime actor statement. Could you explain it a bit to me? I was just saying it should be optional in secondary school. Do you think it shouldnt be an option at all?

I've no problem with it being optional.
My point is simply about things I want to do myself versus things I am happy exist. Irish is great. Off with you. At the end of the day it's still about as much of your business telling me I should be speaking it as it would be for me to tell you that you shouldn't.

boardise

I'm heartened by the tone of this debate -where differing views are offered without rancour or insult. If this could be extended to the broader society we might get somewhere in trying to put Gaelic policy on a more sensible footing.
I'm struck by the way some posters debunk the notion 'utilitarian'. My view is that utilitarianism underlies everything . Early humans would
not have survived long unless they carried out the essential utilitarian tasks of food provision and defence. Then and only then could they start drawing on cave walls and singing songs about the hunt. In addition -language almost certainly arose as a result of survival pressure -since those groups who most readily mastered symbolic expression enjoyed massive survival advantages.
Language is first and foremost a communication tool. All other uses are later derivations.
Being practical and utilitarian is what enables us to reduce or avoid waste .Duplication is waste. That's why it was and is literally pointless to have ever tried to force or cajole people to start living their lives through Gaelic when they were already doing so with ease and efficiency using English as a communication tool. That's why young people jib at learning Gaelic .They know deep down it's pointless but consent to jump through the hoops imposed on them.
For the romantics and the antiquarians it is a matter of finding their own accommodation with Gaelic so that it answers to their cultural or aesthetic needs .This can be done without mindlessly trying to impose Gaelic on kids in Ballylongford or Ballymun.
Some of the reasons people advance to justify revivalist action are utterly weird. Learn Gaelic they say so that you can understand placenames ! Or learn it because it has the oldest vernacular literature recorded in Europe. This takes one's breath away. These laughable considerations are a million miles removed from what motivates people to ever learn a language-there might be 0.1% who think like this.
It's not a matter of loving or hating Gaelic ( stupid emotive terms anyway) . Gaelic won't die in the sense of complete extinction but we need to find a new presence for it in society that eliminates crazy mountains of waste and frustration.

Adamocovic

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I agree 100% that some people most definitely are considering it as an attack on
the Irish language itself. This doesn't alter the fact that it isn't though.
There are untold numbers of cultural things worldwide I have no opinion on
either way. Would you assume I want them all to disappear because I am not aware
of them, actively promoting them or advocating forced usage of them?

I personally don't feel that way just highlighting that some do and thats more than likely why they get nervous or defensive. And no I wouldn't assume you want them to disappear.

I've no problem with it being optional.
My point is simply about things I want to do myself versus things I am happy
exist. Irish is great. Off with you. At the end of the day it's still about as
much of your business telling me I should be speaking it as it would be for me to tell you that you shouldn't.

And I agree it shouldn't be forced on people and should be just taught during primary school when students get a feel for all subjects and then in seconday school it is optional like geography, art, history, french, german, spanish, religion etc become.

And I'm sorry if it comes across that I am telling you you should be speaking it but I am not. It's up to the individual to whether or not they want to be able, like you said you wouldn't tell me not to speak it and I wouldnt tell you to.

My overall opinion in this is a lot comes down to the manner and content which is taught in secondary school and obviously the fact people who don't want to learn it are made to, those I feel have a negative impact on the language and some reform of how it is taught can improve it. Just my opinion and I understand if people disagree.

Dughorm

boardise wrote: »

I'm heartened by the tone of this debate -where differing views are offered without rancour or insult. If this could be extended to the broader society we might get somewhere in trying to put Gaelic policy on a more sensible footing.
I'm struck by the way some posters debunk the notion 'utilitarian'. My view is that utilitarianism underlies everything . Early humans would
not have survived long unless they carried out the essential utilitarian tasks of food provision and defence. Then and only then could they start drawing on cave walls and singing songs about the hunt. In addition -language almost certainly arose as a result of survival pressure -since those groups who most readily mastered symbolic expression enjoyed massive survival advantages.
Language is first and foremost a communication tool. All other uses are later derivations.
Being practical and utilitarian is what enables us to reduce or avoid waste .Duplication is waste. That's why it was and is literally pointless to have ever tried to force or cajole people to start living their lives through Gaelic when they were already doing so with ease and efficiency using English as a communication tool. That's why young people jib at learning Gaelic .They know deep down it's pointless but consent to jump through the hoops imposed on them.
For the romantics and the antiquarians it is a matter of finding their own accommodation with Gaelic so that it answers to their cultural or aesthetic needs .This can be done without mindlessly trying to impose Gaelic on kids in Ballylongford or Ballymun.
Some of the reasons people advance to justify revivalist action are utterly weird. Learn Gaelic they say so that you can understand placenames ! Or learn it because it has the oldest vernacular literature recorded in Europe. This takes one's breath away. These laughable considerations are a million miles removed from what motivates people to ever learn a language-there might be 0.1% who think like this.
It's not a matter of loving or hating Gaelic ( stupid emotive terms anyway) . Gaelic won't die in the sense of complete extinction but we need to find a new presence for it in society that eliminates crazy mountains of waste and frustration.

Exactly - what sort of Irish speakers does our current curriculum try to create? Paper one expects us to be formal debaters and paper two to be literary critics!

Why not keep a 'conversational Irish' mandatory for all on a pass or fail basis?

Have a second literary subject which has all the technical details in it for those who want to study Irish in university or become teachers?

Adamocovic

Dughorm wrote: »

Exactly - what sort of Irish speakers does our current curriculum try to create? Paper one expects us to be formal debaters and paper two to be literary critics!

Why not keep a 'conversational Irish' mandatory for all on a pass or fail basis?

Have a second literary subject which has all the technical details in it for those who want to study Irish in university or become teachers?

I agree. On the original thread topic of why the Irish language is failing this is a big thing in my view.

They teach the Irish courses like the English, where they expect ours to be so good that we can read poems, books and watch plays and then write reports on them, a long with debate a topical matter.

In my Irish at school I learned off pages to write for this, it didn't help me with the ability to speak in. Spending 3 months in the Gaeltacht my ability to speak it was way better than years of studying in school.

I think like a more conversational approach would be better. When we learn French or German we don't write reviews on old french poems or books but rather how to use it spoken, not perfect but would be an improved approach in my view.

Dan_Solo

Adamocovic wrote: »

I think like a more conversational approach would be better. When we learn French or German we don't write reviews on old french poems or books but rather how to use it spoken, not perfect but would be an improved approach in my view.

If we assume we're keeping Irish compulsory in secondary, even if we switch to an entirely conversational-Irish approach, what makes you think anybody would be interested in using it when they already have another language that works 100% of the time and they are already far more proficient in and nearly everything they watch, read or play is in and is a de facto standard (at least secondary) language across the globe?

Grayson

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If we assume we're keeping Irish compulsory in secondary, even if we switch to an entirely conversational-Irish approach, what makes you think anybody would be interested in using it when they already have another language that works 100% of the time and they are already far more proficient in and nearly everything they watch, read or play is in and is a de facto standard (at least secondary) language across the globe?

I think the point is that it would then be a choice. At the moment I don't have a choice. I don't actually speak it and neither do most of the people I know. And they all had the same education I had.

At the moment the Irish education we had was petty much a waste of time.

Adamocovic

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If we assume we're keeping Irish compulsory in secondary, even if we switch to an entirely conversational-Irish approach, what makes you think anybody would be interested in using it when they already have another language that works 100% of the time and they are already far more proficient in and nearly everything they watch, read or play is in and is a de facto standard (at least secondary) language across the globe?

Well firstly I would like to move from compulsory to optional, but even so I would imagine conversational irish would get more use than being able to write a review on or quote a Máirtín Ó Direáin poem, no disrespect to his poetry :pac:

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If we assume we're keeping Irish compulsory in secondary, even if we switch to an entirely conversational-Irish approach, what makes you think anybody would be interested in using it when they already have another language that works 100% of the time and they are already far more proficient in and nearly everything they watch, read or play is in and is a de facto standard (at least secondary) language across the globe?

That to me is a race to the bottom argument though.

If the reason we give for it not being compulsory for JC/LC is "why would anybody be interested when we have English" - can't we say the same for primary school and effectively argue why bother with it at all

Now, I know lots of people, myself included, aren't happy with the current approach, but I think the "100% optional" approach is a minority view.

Better to have a course which makes it useful than just to remove it from the core curriculum altogether.

Un Croissant

Maybe we could please everyone. Have one compulsory and one optional. You'd have to completely overhaul the whole system though.

Compulsory: Irish language. Start from primary school. Really go hell for leather at making strong, natural speakers. No learning, no preperation, just natural talking from a young age. This class could be decided into pass/honours at a later stage. Right now, even written Irish reads like pre learned rubbish. X is ainm dom. Tá beirt dreathair agam or whatever the ****. Its so wooden, if you get me. This subject being compulsory wouldn't be a huge problem because every should be able to speak it through casual engagement in school. I'd go as far as to say that, if its a national pride issue, it wouldn't even need to be examined. Just done to help the language.

Optional: the Irish subject. All the bull**** that ruins it now. Poems, stories, stair na gaelige. All boring, because it involves just translating it all to English in some attempt to understand it. Students who feel able, and are interested can take this subject to exam, same as English or history.

That's if we keep the 7 subject, 3 compulsory system.

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote:

Why not keep a 'conversational Irish' mandatory for all on a pass or fail basis?

Because that would still involve teaching students who have no interest, who will therefore drag down the standard and distract the teacher. There's no reason for it to be mandatory in secondary school (that I can see) other than "it's our language, we SHOULD know it" an argument which isn't applied to history, geography, or GAA.

I have no problem with Irish being taught in primary school, no subjects are optional in primary school and as another poster said primary school is there to build a foundation in subjects and give children a taste of the subjects which they can develop in secondary. I think it would probably would help to teach some subjects through Irish.

Baggy Trousers

I also think Irish should be optional in secondary school.

smash

Scrap it from the JC and LC as a compulsory subjects and replace with a requirement for a compulsory science subject.

Baggy Trousers

smash wrote: »

Scrap it from the JC and LC as a compulsory subjects and replace with a requirement for a compulsory science subject.

Yes and also get rid of religion class (if they still do that in secondary school).

Dughorm

smash wrote: »

replace with a requirement for a compulsory science subject.

Why? What about a mandatory social science subject?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

That to me is a race to the bottom argument though.

If the reason we give for it not being compulsory for JC/LC is "why would anybody be interested when we have English" - can't we say the same for primary school and effectively argue why bother with it at all

That's an argument the pro-Irish side should be struggling to avoid... if it comes to "why bother at all" then I'd fully agree it should be chopped.

Dughorm wrote: »

Better to have a course which makes it useful than just to remove it from the core curriculum altogether.

But it will never, ever, ever be as useful as English, most people native or more proficient language. Switching to Irish "because we learned it in school" would be the same as insisting on speaking in English without using words starting with a vowel just to make it harder. Nobody would bother.

briany

Un Croissant wrote: »

Maybe we could please everyone. Have one compulsory and one optional. You'd have to completely overhaul the whole system though.

Compulsory: Irish language. Start from primary school. Really go hell for leather at making strong, natural speakers. No learning, no preperation, just natural talking from a young age. This class could be decided into pass/honours at a later stage. Right now, even written Irish reads like pre learned rubbish. X is ainm dom. Tá beirt dreathair agam or whatever the ****. Its so wooden, if you get me. This subject being compulsory wouldn't be a huge problem because every should be able to speak it through casual engagement in school. I'd go as far as to say that, if its a national pride issue, it wouldn't even need to be examined. Just done to help the language.

Optional: the Irish subject. All the bull**** that ruins it now. Poems, stories, stair na gaelige. All boring, because it involves just translating it all to English in some attempt to understand it. Students who feel able, and are interested can take this subject to exam, same as English or history.

That's if we keep the 7 subject, 3 compulsory system.

If you're four or five, just starting at a regular primary school and Irish with it, if you're not encountering Irish outside of school, what reason is there to engage with it inside of school, other than passive endurance? The problem of Irish is that it has little relevance outside of the classroom, and no amount of relevance inside the classroom will ever change that. If you wanted Irish to make a comeback, you'd have to think of a compelling reason for it to be spoken in the home. What that reason would realistically be, I do not know, however.

smash

Dughorm wrote: »

Why? What about a mandatory social science subject?

Be it chemistry, biology, physics or computer science, a science subject will be beneficial in life. Irish for the most part wont.

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Yes and also get rid of religion class (if they still do that in secondary school).

I agree, but that's a separate matter. It's not compulsory in an examination that determines your career.

FunLover18

Baggy Trousers wrote:

Yes and also get rid of religion class (if they still do that in secondary school).

Some secondary schools do do religion classes but I know for me it was much more about learning about the history of religions and also acted as an opportunity for students to social issues such as abortion etc. It was compulsory which I think could be scrapped but at the same time having an hour a week that allows kids to discuss that stuff is probably more beneficial than mandatory Irish.

Dan_Solo

smash wrote: »

Be it chemistry, biology, physics or computer science, a science subject will be beneficial in life. Irish for the most part wont.

Awaits "What if you want to be an Irish teacher?" responses...

Un Croissant

FunLover18 wrote: »

Some secondary schools do do religion classes but I know for me it was much more about learning about the history of religions and also acted as an opportunity for students to social issues such as abortion etc. It was compulsory which I think could be scrapped but at the same time having an hour a week that allows kids to discuss that stuff is probably more beneficial than mandatory Irish.

I did religion as the bull**** compulsory class about stds and personality types. The school across the road took it as an exam subject and did history etc.

smash

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Awaits "What if you want to be an Irish teacher?" responses...

Which is why I said "Irish for the most part wont."

boardise

I've been around long enough to have heard all the arguments that are put forward for Gaelic revival rehashed backwards and forwards.
I am stating here with full sincere conviction that NONE i.e. NOT ONE of them holds water and I state that on the basis of facts ,logic and linguistic research.
Putting it bluntly ,for the vast majority of Irish people Gaelic is a bloody nuisance ,an utter pain in the posterior ...because Gaelic is congruent with revivalist tosh.
I can only assume that people tolerate it so much to try to be 'nice' to the tiny minority of native or quasi-native speakers who exist(and who are busy switching to English as noted!).
So this minority have been given unbelievable privilege -a radio station ,a TV channel and goodness knows how many special grants and advantages (Gaeltacht housing grants, 10% bonuses ,publishing subventions etc.etc.).
All this indulgence should stop at the level of official language designation. It should be made clear to Gaelic speakers ...'Sorry, you can use Gaelic for whatever personal purposes but the only language for transacting state business is English -used and understood by everybody.'
The majority has every perfect right to decide this and no one is discommoded.
The Irish people should revisit the constitution and the accursed Official languages act which should never have been passed -but of course our gormless TDs allowed themselves be sleep-walked into this idiocy.
The air of unreality around all things to do with the Gaelic revival is grotesque and utterly oppressive.

d2ww

Un Croissant wrote: »

"Really?" Yes.

Unless you can prove otherwise, your view is little more than wishful thinking that the people of Ireland are actually in love with the Irish language, yet mysteriously refuse to learn and use it.

Grayson

Un Croissant wrote: »

I did religion as the bull**** compulsory class about stds and personality types. The school across the road took it as an exam subject and did history etc.

I had lessons in dogma and doctrine.

RoyalCelt

my teapot is orange wrote: »

It raises the bigger question of should we be teaching it at all. I read on another forum recently how foreign science students in Ireland are amazed that first year of undergrad degrees is spent bringing everyone up to the level that they were at in school. There isn't much ICT or technology teaching in school and I think nowadays more and more people are going to need this even where it isn't there core role. That 40 minutes every day could be put to better use. The education system should be preparing students as best it can for the world they live in today, not pandering to the sentimental or political ideas from the past.

To be honest it's not the worst thing to be learning. I'd to learn 3 text books of crap for junior cert religion. I don't mind a class a week on our own religion but I don't give a crap where the Muslims meet up for the annual booze up.

Why couldn't that time and effort have been spent learning how to computer program. would have made college a hell of a lot easier. Also wasting time learning English poems and stories (same with Irish).

And history. Tone it down a bit. nobody really gives a **** what houses looked like 5 thousand years ago. So much pointless **** was forced into my brain for the junior I'm still trying to clear some of it out until this day.

God school could have been so enjoyable if they dumped history and religion and tone English down to simply reading and writing skills plus irish to reading and writing only.

Still can't to this day understand how computer programming is not mandatory across all students for the junior cert. There is massive job potential and future growth in this area.

Dan_Solo

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I don't mind a class a week on our own religion

Checks mass attendance... nope.
Same goes for Irish of course.

briany

RoyalCelt wrote: »

To be honest it's not the worst thing to be learning. I'd to learn 3 text books of crap for junior cert religion. I don't mind a class a week on our own religion but I don't give a crap where the Muslims meet up for the annual booze up.

Why couldn't that time and effort have been spent learning how to computer program. would have made college a hell of a lot easier. Also wasting time learning English poems and stories (same with Irish).

And history. Tone it down a bit. nobody really gives a **** what houses looked like 5 thousand years ago. So much pointless **** was forced into my brain for the junior I'm still trying to clear some of it out until this day.

God school could have been so enjoyable if they dumped history and religion and tone English down to simply reading and writing skills plus irish to reading and writing only.

Still can't to this day understand how computer programming is not mandatory across all students for the junior cert. There is massive job potential and future growth in this area.

I've heard the (conspiracy) theory that school, particularly primary school, is more of an instrument to indoctrinate kids into wider society than a place where they go to learn valuable skills that couldn't be learned elsewhere. A place where they go to essentially be babysat while their parents work, where they learn to work to a schedule, accept authority figures and cooperate with peers outside of their family/community, and take in a world view as mandated by the state. Skills pertaining to the interests of the individual, or many practical everyday skills can wait until later, in or around adulthood, it would seem.

Reading and Maths are the two basic things that most kids take out of primary. Ideally, primary education would feature a larger component to stimulate the individual interests and curiosities of kids while also teaching some practical skills. This, of course, would lead to chaos in the curriculum. In the connected age, it's harder and harder to understand where school really fits as an educational tool as a child can hop on a computer (with the requisite reading and writing skills) and learn whatever they want and with much greater accuracy and depth than most of us ever had access to as kids.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But it will never, ever, ever be as useful as English, most people native or more proficient language. Switching to Irish "because we learned it in school" would be the same as insisting on speaking in English without using words starting with a vowel just to make it harder. Nobody would bother.

That's a separate issue. I never claimed irish would be as useful as English. I don't believe any credible irish proponent wants irish to replace English as the language of commerce here.

It's the type of irish learned at present which I believe is not useful. Technical vocab about debates, poetry etc...is being learned instead of vocab to hold a simple conversation.

Why is being able to hold a conversation in a second language useful? I think that doesn't need to be explained.

Why should that language be irish? I don't see why not. After all we all appear agreed that the foundation should be mandatory in primary school. Why not build on it. People can choose additional languages to begin from stratch like they do at present.

Dughorm

smash wrote: »

Be it chemistry, biology, physics or computer science, a science subject will be beneficial in life. Irish for the most part wont..

I did chemistry in the LC, got an A in it and have never used it since. Have used irish more .

Not convinced by your argument that a science subject should be mandatory.

johnny osbourne

how do you say - i'm happy- in irish

my guess is, tá gáire orm, or tá mé sásta, but neither sound right?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Why is being able to hold a conversation in a second language useful? I think that doesn't need to be explained.

No, no, do go ahead. "so nobody will know when we're insulting them amongst ourselves"? That sort of thing?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't believe any credible irish proponent wants irish to replace English as the language of commerce here.

Conradh Na Gaelige, which claims to represent the Irish-language 'community' wants to replace English with Irish as the common tongue of Ireland. It's the reason for the organisation's existence for the past 100 years and this aim was ratified as recently as 2008.

It's a very influential organisation, having lobbied the FF government to implement the Official Languages Act and which now threatens to have its supporters vote against the government if it interferes with the compulsory-Irish policy in schools. So, while I think Conradh's aim is absurd, it appears to have some credible influence on Irish life. This absurdity, of course undermines the Conradh's respect among the majority population.

Second language choices should certainly include Irish but it should be optional. After 100 years, you'd think it would be obvious that you cannot force people to speak Irish.