The Irish language is failing.

LorMal

wendell borton wrote: »

The welsh language is going strong at the moment, couldn't we just copy them.

it would be really silly for us all to learn Welsh - its not even spoken here

briany

There is another fallacy that strong proponents of the Irish language tend to use and that is this - Irish people are exceptionally lazy and don't care about their language, as if to say that were unnatural. 'Why can't we be like our fellow man on the continent who keeps their language?', they say. I put it to you, that we are exactly like our fellow man on the continent. I present a list of all the endangered languages in Europe.

As you can see, quite a number of 'lazy' people everywhere. Languages on the way out to beat the band. Some people need to wake up the reality of why a language dies.

tipparetops

The posters here remind me of Irish people I have met over the years, the first to get the Irish songs going, the first to boo England, throwing the beers into themselves. Throw a few Irish words at them and you can see the anger and jealousy in their eyes.

I detest the drinking culture, the false bravado, the ignorance of our own language, the obsession with a certain foreign sport.
there is people in this country, born and bred, who speak like yanks/brits.
It is hilarious and the joke is on ye.

dr.fuzzenstein

briany wrote: »

There is another fallacy that strong proponents of the Irish language tend to use and that is this - Irish people are exceptionally lazy and don't care about their language, as if to say that were unnatural. 'Why can't we be like our fellow man on the continent who keeps their language?', they say. I put it to you, that we are exactly like our fellow man on the continent. I present a list of all the endangered languages in Europe.

As you can see, quite a number of 'lazy' people everywhere. Languages on the way out to beat the band. Some people need to wake up the reality of why a language dies.

Nothing can last forever. We need to bemoan many great traditiones that are lost, flint knapper, hooper, wheelwright, farrier and many more. Should we spend millions to make sure these professions are kept alive? Ancient mesopotamian isn't spoken anymore.
Will we still speak English in 2000 years time? Maybe Esperanto will be the number 1 language.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

LorMal wrote: »

it would be really silly for us all to learn Welsh - its not even spoken here

Nor for that matter is Irish

Iwasfrozen

tipparetops wrote: »

The posters here remind me of Irish people I have met over the years, the first to get the Irish songs going, the first to boo England, throwing the beers into themselves. Throw a few Irish words at them and you can see the anger and jealousy in their eyes.

I detest the drinking culture, the false bravado, the ignorance of our own language, the obsession with a certain foreign sport.
there is people in this country, born and bred, who speak like yanks/brits.
It is hilarious and the joke is on ye.

I detest the drinking culture too but I detest the "I'm more Irish than you" mentality even more.

The Irish language is dying, get over it. The country has made its choice and Irish isn't coming back.

stefanovich

The English imposed their language and we took it like the cucks that we are. Also smoking ban and NCT.

briany

briany wrote: »

There is another fallacy that strong proponents of the Irish language tend to use and that is this - Irish people are exceptionally lazy and don't care about their language, as if to say that were unnatural. 'Why can't we be like our fellow man on the continent who keeps their language?', they say. I put it to you, that we are exactly like our fellow man on the continent. I present a list of all the endangered languages in Europe.

As you can see, quite a number of 'lazy' people everywhere. Languages on the way out to beat the band. Some people need to wake up the reality of why a language dies.

One of the main reasons for a language shift is simply down to having to deal with people who have a dominant language spoken by a much larger population.
The minority language speaker is always going to have to learn the major language as few if any speakers of the dominant language are going to bother to learn the minority language just to speak to maybe only one person or at most a small number ever.

There are many countries in Africa that have shifted to the European languages of the former colonialists, and most have continued with the process of shifting from their local languages in favour of English or French.

Maybe some will shift to Mandarin in the longer term future.

Grayson

stefanovich wrote: »

The English imposed their language and we took it like the cucks that we are. Also smoking ban and NCT.

What?

stefanovich

Grayson wrote: »

What?

We just accepted it like the cucks we are.

stefanovich

I used to love Ireland. No rules. Noone gives a ****. Cars held together with string. Smoking inside hospitals. Now what do we have. Granny state.

Grayson

stefanovich wrote: »

We just accepted it like the cucks we are.

The smoking ban is an Irish invention. We were the first country in the world to implement it.

PopePalpatine

Oh noes, did the big bad gubbermint take away stefanovich's job in the marketing department of a tobacco giant's Irish arm?

I hear Russia's nice this time of year.

Aineoil

Grayson wrote: »

What?

Wait a minute. I just have to get the popcorn.

fly_agaric

People talk about Irish being "bet" into people in school the past, but I think we really would have needed to take a very radical "Attaturk" type approach to getting Irish spoken widely again right after independence. 2 ideas would come to mind - primary and secondary education through Irish; dealings with the state/officialdom through Irish (all Irish forms and documentation). A sort of inversion of some of the ways in which the language had been weakened over the years of British rule. I don't know the history too well - perhaps they were all still dreaming soon there would be end to partition and such policies would not have encouraged any protestants/unionists in the north that they could ever be a part of the new state. There was still a decent enough number of speakers then and such policies would have made it a language that everybody needed to use in their daily lives rather than a state-supported relic or a cultural interest. Number of speakers is too low now and I think its gone beyond any possibility of mass revival which is sad.

stefanovich

Grayson wrote: »

The smoking ban is an Irish invention. We were the first country in the world to implement it.

And we took it without resistance.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fly_agaric wrote: »

People talk about Irish being "bet" into people in school the past, but I think we really would have needed to take a very radical "Attaturk" type approach to getting Irish spoken widely again right after independence. 2 ideas would come to mind - primary and secondary education through Irish; dealings with the state/officialdom through Irish (all Irish forms and documentation). A sort of inversion of some of the ways in which the language had been weakened over the years of British rule. I don't know the history too well - perhaps they were all still dreaming soon there would be end to partition and such policies would not have encouraged any protestants/unionists in the north that they could ever be a part of the new state. There was still a decent enough number of speakers then and such policies would have made it a language that everybody needed to use in their daily lives rather than a state-supported relic or a cultural interest. Number of speakers is too low now and I think its gone beyond any possibility of mass revival which is sad.

That's exactly what the other guy suggested and we would up yelling 'west brits' at us.

Before you start givinf us ideas to get what we want, make sure it's what we want. Its going to involve us, si its only fair.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That's exactly what the other guy suggested and we would up yelling 'west brits' at us.

Before you start givinf us ideas to get what we want, make sure it's what we want. Its going to involve us, si its only fair.

thats not true you said ye were anglophiles and proud of it.

stefanovich

stefanovich wrote: »

And we took it without resistance.

Good, glad we did!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

thats not true you said ye were anglophiles and proud of it.

No, I said patrotism is for lazy people who can't be bothered thinking for themselves. The above is a lazy retort made by you, instead of responding to your lazy "if you haven't learnt it, you're lazy" summation, which pretty much proved my point.

Aineoil

Article 8 of the constitution states that

The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

The English language is recognised as a second official language.

Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

I don't particularly agree with this. It's a bit 1937.

Maybe we need to have a referendum to find out how every citizen would feel and vote.

I'm not anti the Irish language, I actually like it. But if the majority of people living here feel the constitution should be amended, let it happen.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, I said patrotism is for lazy people who can't be bothered thinking for themselves. The above is a lazy retort made by you, instead of responding to your lazy "if you haven't learnt it, you're lazy" summation, which pretty much proved my point.

The only point you have proved is mine, you have a lazy retort to answer a brilliant point that was in answer to a lazy point by you.
you also said you were proud to speak the Queens English, disliked the Irish language and Irish speakers.
Self Loathing is a cancer, cut it out.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

The only point you have proved is mine, you have a lazy retort to answer a brilliant point that was in answer to a lazy point by you.
you also said you were proud to speak the Queens English, disliked the Irish language and Irish speakers.
Self Loathing is a cancer, cut it out.

Not mine - I was refering to the well rearches post about lingusitic delveopment worldwide which you lazily ignored. You never read my posts, becaue you;re too lazy or scared to do so, so how do you know what's in them? Case in point, I never made any of the points you made below:

Queen's English?
Point me to one post where I said (or anyone else said) they were proud to speak English - this is fiction, again because you're too lazy to read what's written.

Self-loathing?
I am very proud of the Self I have created - but have not commented on this thread as it's not relevant.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not mine - I was refering to the well rearches post about lingusitic delveopment worldwide which you lazily ignored. You never read my posts, becaue you;re too lazy or scared to do so.

Point me to one poitn wher esomeone said they were proud to speak English - this is fiction, again because you're too lazy to read what's written.

You are confusing the concept of "nationalism" with "self" - I am very proud of my "self" while indefferent to my nationality.

posters including yourself say you dislike the Irish language and the fact we have to learn it in school.
Now you say you are not proud to speak English.
I do not speak double dutch, Explain.

The society we live in now should be less proud of themselves and more proud of their country.

briany

Aineoil wrote: »

Article 8 of the constitution states that

The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

The English language is recognised as a second official language.

Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

I don't particularly agree with this. It's a bit 1937.

Maybe we need to have a referendum to find out how every citizen would feel and vote.

I'm not anti the Irish language, I actually like it. But if the majority of people living here feel the constitution should be amended, let it happen.

I don't think that article of the constitution would ever be challenged enough to the point where its status would be subject to a referendum. It doesn't really affect enough lives in any meaningful way. Most kids just kind of go along with it in school and most parents/adults are happy enough in the knowledge that they'll never really need to function in the language and it's something nice to trot out for the Government, like the good delph, when the European neighbours stop in for a state visit.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

posters including yourself say you dislike the Irish language and the fact we have to learn it in school.
Now you say you are not proud to speak English.
I do not speak double dutch, Explain.

The fallacy here is that you MUST be proud of whatever you speak.

I speak English. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of it. It's a means of communication. That's all. It says nothing about who I am what I do or how I think.

The society we live in now should be less proud of themselves and more proud of their country.

Fair opinion, but why?

My nationality, again, tells you nothing about who I am, what I do, or how I think. To me, it does the opposite: it tells me I should conform to something instead of being free to choose for myself.

Dughorm

briany wrote: »

Most young children aren't that focused and don't usually have a well developed sense of themselves or what they want to do. For that reason, it makes sense to have a set curriculum for them before they hit their teenage years, which is typically when most people begin to find the thing they're interested in, their course in life. At that point, it makes less sense to continue with compulsory education in pretty much any subject because students should be free to explore their options. At that point, Irish should be become an option, along with everything else.

That adds a new angle - if you believe that all subjects should be optional then of course Irish should be optional as well!

I happen to agree with compulsory core subjects - I think it can swing too much in the other direction ala A-levels in the UK.

Aineoil

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Queen's English?
Point me to one post where I said (or anyone else said) they were proud to speak English

+ 1

Well I am so happy and proud that English is my first language because it is a

universal language.

I would hate to have to learn English as a second language because it's

quite a difficult language to learn. I like learning other languages because it's fun.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You know full well what I said. Any definitive answer as to what Irish identity IS will be immediately squashed. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. And you know well that's what I meant by "proper". You're not fooling anybody. Hence you've now meandered off into the quite hilarious "Irish identities". What next? Every person in the world has their own identity perhaps? So why try to impose or define these identities? What would be the purpose? How can you then tell anybody that the Irish language should be part of any "Irish identity"?
BTW, I already answered the primary/secondary thing. More for an easy life than anything for now. Once it's out of secondary I'd be all for removing it completely. You are 100% correct: it is a waste of time to force anybody to learn it at any level.

I'm not too sure what I can add to your line of thought Dan - I've already said that I don't think identity is relevant to the question being discussed so as far as I can see there's nothing above for me to comment on.

The primary/secondary distinction is a pragmatic one from your perspective if I'm reading you correctly. If you think Irish should be removed completely from schools then I don't think we can ever reach a middle ground - but it was good to trash things out.

Aineoil

briany wrote: »

I don't think that article of the constitution would ever be challenged enough to the point where its status would be subject to a referendum. It doesn't really affect enough lives in any meaningful way. Most kids just kind of go along with it in school and most parents/adults are happy enough in the knowledge that they'll never really need to function in the language and it's something nice to trot out for the Government, like the good delph, when the European neighbours stop in for a state visit.

I agree with you.

purplecow1977

I struggle with the teaching of Irish in primary schools. I am open to ideas and reform, as I do really really want it to be protected. It will die out very quickly if we let this slip. But children seem to hate it and I suspect a lot of it comes from parents attitudes towards it, and their own experiences of the language. They also don't see a purpose for it. I have to see their point - why would anyone learn a language that they won't ever really need to use?

Grayson

Aineoil wrote: »

+ 1

Well I am so happy and proud that English is my first language because it is a

universal language.

I would hate to have to learn English as a second language because it's

quite a difficult language to learn. I like learning other languages because it's fun.

I'm proud of hiberno-english.

All you culture nazi's can feck off, ya feckin eejits.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The fallacy here is that you MUST be proud of whatever you speak.

I speak English. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of it. It's a means of communication. That's all. It says nothing about who I am what I do or how I think.



Fair opinion, but why?

My nationality, again, tells you nothing about who I am, what I do, or how I think. To me, it does the opposite: it tells me I should conform to something instead of being free to choose for myself.

I can tell a lot about you from the fact you are Anglo Irish.
you are 18 - 30, not religious, pro Europe, pro minorities. I could go on.

Aineoil

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I struggle with the teaching of Irish in primary schools. I am open to ideas and reform, as I do really really want it to be protected. It will die out very quickly if we let this slip. But children seem to hate it and I suspect a lot of it comes from parents attitudes towards it, and their own experiences of the language. They also don't see a purpose for it. I have to see their point - why would anyone learn a language that they won't ever really need to use?

You are right. It's a struggle to keep the language alive. I would love to see the

language protected too, but sadly it's not going to happen. Children don't seem to

notice Irish until they get to 2nd Class and the hate for the language sets in about then.

Why that happens, I have no idea?

briany

Dughorm wrote: »

That adds a new angle - if you believe that all subjects should be optional then of course Irish should be optional as well!

I happen to agree with compulsory core subjects - I think it can swing too much in the other direction ala A-levels in the UK.

Maths and English become increasingly specialised and abstract toward the end of secondary education. By the time that kicks in, most students should know whether they're interested in it and should be allowed to elect not to do it or continue on. Compulsory Maths and English should deal with making students literate, numerate, and basically able to deal with most real world scenarios they're likely to encounter related to the two subjects e.g. being able to calculate a tip, a set of fractions and having a good grasp of spelling, grammar, sentence structure, along with a decent vocabulary.

So there should be compulsory schooling for the basics of English and Maths, but none for Irish, as one cannot really be functional while being illiterate and innumerate, but one can be functional without any knowledge of Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

I can tell a lot about you from the fact you are Anglo Irish.
you are 18 - 30, not religious, pro Europe, pro minorities. I could go on.

One out of four - and that was not being religious which statistically was a safe bet. Although i'm not sure what you mean by "pro minorities".

How about guessing what inspires me and what defines me and what I do by choice? Because that will tell you who I am.

briany

tipparetops wrote: »

I can tell a lot about you from the fact you are Anglo Irish.
you are 18 - 30, not religious, pro Europe, pro minorities. I could go on.

Business is about to pick up in this thread.

Aineoil

Grayson wrote: »

I'm proud of hiberno-english.

All you culture nazi's can feck off, ya feckin eejits.

I agree with you. I don't want to be at the crossroads ag damhsa in a gúna.

I'm proud of being able to speak Irish too. It wasn't my choice as a child but my

father just spoke to us in Irish.

My mother spoke to us in hiberno English.


Now I think we were a weird family!

PopePalpatine

tipparetops wrote: »

I can tell a lot about you from the fact you are Anglo Irish.
you are 18 - 30, not religious, pro Europe, pro minorities. I could go on.

You make those sound like bad things.

I am NOT FUCKING Anglo-Irish, by the way, so your dumb stereotypes can go fuck off and die. My dad's parents are (or were, in the case of my late grandfather) fierce Sinn Féin supporters but couldn't give a toss about the Irish language as far as I could tell.

Un Croissant

tipparetops wrote: »

I can tell a lot about you from the fact you are Anglo Irish.
you are 18 - 30, not religious, pro Europe, pro minorities. I could go on.

Please do.

Dughorm

briany wrote: »

Maths and English become increasingly specialised and abstract toward the end of secondary education. By the time that kicks in, most students should know whether they're interested in it and should be allowed to elect not to do it or continue on. Compulsory Maths and English should deal with making students literate, numerate, and basically able to deal with most real world scenarios they're likely to encounter related to the two subjects e.g. being able to calculate a tip, a set of fractions and having a good grasp of spelling, grammar, sentence structure, along with a decent vocabulary.

So there should be compulsory schooling for the basics of English and Maths, but none for Irish, as one cannot really be functional while being illiterate and innumerate, but one can be functional without any knowledge of Irish.

So if I read this correctly, you think there should be a mandatory life-skills English and Maths but the Shakespeare or Functions or whatever should be optional. Funnily enough, I think a conversational Irish should be mandatory and the literature should be optional. We happen to agree on more than we disagree on.

Un Croissant

I'm 25.

Not religious.

Pro Europe.

Pro minorities.*



*Which is good for tipp, seeing as he is one, and a rapidly diminishing one.

FunLover18

briany wrote: »

Maths and English become increasingly specialised and abstract toward the end of secondary education. By the time that kicks in, most students should know whether they're interested in it and should be allowed to elect not to do it or continue on. Compulsory Maths and English should deal with making students literate, numerate, and basically able to deal with most real world scenarios they're likely to encounter related to the two subjects e.g. being able to calculate a tip, a set of fractions and having a good grasp of spelling, grammar, sentence structure, along with a decent vocabulary.

So there should be compulsory schooling for the basics of English and Maths, but none for Irish, as one cannot really be functional while being illiterate and innumerate, but one can be functional without any knowledge of Irish.

Interestingly, at least to me, maths and English are usually always brought up when the subject of Irish being made optional arises and yet, as far as I can tell Irish is actually the only subject which students taking the LC are obliged to take.

Taken from the Department of Education website:

Students following the Leaving Certificate (Established) programme are required to study at least five subjects, one of which must be Irish unless an exemption applies

No mention of maths or English, so I assume these are made compulsory by schools possibly because of university requirements. I keep meaning to investigate further. I'm in two minds as whether there should be any compulsory subjects for LC.

Aineoil

I'm 49 nearly 50 (only 3 months to go now before the big birthday).

Not religious.

Pro Europe.

Pro minorities.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

FunLover18 wrote: »

Interestingly, at least to me, maths and English are usually always brought up when the subject of Irish being made optional arises and yet, as far as I can tell Irish is actually the only subject which students taking the LC are obliged to take.

Taken from the Department of Education website:



No mention of maths or English, so I assume these are made compulsory by schools possibly because of university requirements. I keep meaning to investigate further. I'm in two minds as whether there should be any compulsory subjects for LC.

That's a bit of a moot point, because there's nothing stoping a student from merely going to the exam, writing their number on the exam worksheet, handign it in and walking back out again.

I don't see the poitn of any compulsroy subject beyond the afe of 15. At that age, you should know that you're not interested in. In the case of Maths and English, if you don;t have the nessecary lifeskills at that age, somethign has gone seriously wrong and smiply carrying on will not change anything.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That's a bit of a moot point, because there's nothing stoping a student from merely going to the exam, writing their number on the exam worksheet, handign it in and walking back out again..

One can also not turn up for the exam.

One is still required to turn up for the classes in the 2/3 years leading up to the exam though.

dr.fuzzenstein

Anyone mentioned "we're living in the British Isles" yet?
There's a cat amongst the pigeons!

briany

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly wrote: »

One can also not turn up for the exam.

One is still required to turn up for the classes in the 2/3 years leading up to the exam though.

You can not turn up for the classes, mentally, though. Stare out the window and all that.

tipparetops

PopePalpatine wrote: »

You make those sound like bad things.

I am NOT FUCKING Anglo-Irish, by the way, so your dumb stereotypes can go fuck off and die. My dad's parents are (or were, in the case of my late grandfather) fierce Sinn Féin supporters but couldn't give a toss about the Irish language as far as I could tell.

fierce sinn fein supporters, I love it.
So maybe you got the Anglo from your Moms side? :pac:

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

One out of four - and that was not being religious which statistically was a safe bet. Although i'm not sure what you mean by "pro minorities".

How about guessing what inspires me and what defines me and what I do by choice? Because that will tell you who I am.

So you are not religious, younger than 18 or over 30, you are against the EU and against minorities.

I thought you were not a patriot.