The Irish language is failing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

So you are not religious, younger than 18 or over 30, you are against the EU and against minorities.

I thought you were not a patriot.

One of those categories has been changed and another you still haven't clearly explained.

Dunno how any of that pegs me as a patriot (or not), but none of it actually tells you anything about who me any more than the languge I speak.

Un Croissant

So.. does speaking Irish make you a patriot?

Or does being religious, anti eu, under 18 or over 30, and anti minorities make you a patriot?

Or does speaking Irish make you all of the above?

It's all very confusing. Tipp?

tipparetops

Un Croissant wrote: »

So.. does speaking Irish make you a patriot?

Or does being religious, anti eu, under 18 or over 30, and anti minorities make you a patriot?

Or does speaking Irish make you all of the above?

It's all very confusing. Tipp?

I know you feel like you are helping, but you are not.
I enjoy leading posters down the path I choose for them, making them look silly.
Now i have dealt with two silly gooses, its your turn.

What you have just posted above, what language is this. Gibberish.
I cannot answer something that makes no sense.

For the clarity of all posters:
People who speak Irish are Irish Celts.
People who speak English only are Anglo Irish.

anglos have more in common with some of our northern brethren.
I think posters like you embrace that, your choice.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

One of those categories has been changed and another you still haven't clearly explained.

Dunno how any of that pegs me as a patriot (or not), but none of it actually tells you anything about who me any more than the languge I speak.

I have not changed my categories, maybe you should read other posts more thoroughly.
Admit it, I was right about you some posts above.
How did I guess, most young people are like clones now, very little personality.

An Ciarraioch

tipparetops wrote: »

I know you feel like you are helping, but you are not.
I enjoy leading posters down the path I choose for them, making them look silly.
Now i have dealt with two silly gooses, its your turn.

What you have just posted above, what language is this. Gibberish.
I cannot answer something that makes no sense.

For the clarity of all posters:
People who speak Irish are Irish Celts.
People who speak English only are Anglo Irish.

anglos have more in common with some of our northern brethren.
I think posters like you embrace that, your choice.

Mmmm, by that logic, 99% of Scots are semi-English, which last month emphatically disproved. It's known that one segment of the brain governs linguistic skills, so many people are simply poor at all languages, full stop, and posters who fall into that category have said they were better at maths and science. The idea, however, that someone who enjoyed learning French, Spanish etc would baulk at going back to Irish seems more perplexing, which is why the thread is its current length.

tipparetops

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Mmmm, by that logic, 99% of Scots are semi-English, which last month emphatically disproved. It's known that one segment of the brain governs linguistic skills, so many people are simply poor at all languages, full stop, and posters who fall into that category have said they were better at maths and science. The idea, however, that someone who enjoyed learning French, Spanish etc would baulk at going back to Irish seems more perplexing, which is why the thread is its current length.

They are as the referendum showed.

I have stated that I can understand if people cannot learn the language,
but there is posters here who are against the language and i am not taking that sh1t. Either should you.
Irish should be mandatory for your leaving cert, its not flippin rocket science.
Do you not remember what the foundation and ordinary papers were like,
be fair.
If we all take the attitude to not fight back against people like this the language will be dead.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

I have not changed my categories, maybe you should read other posts more thoroughly.
Admit it, I was right about you some posts above.
How did I guess, most young people are like clones now, very little personality.

Your inital post said "Europe", the second one said "EU" - that's a different question. You STILL haven't explained what you mean by "pro minorities". Nor have you explained how any of these pegs me as a patriot or not. In any case, none of this tells you anything specifci or important about me.

To think I am shaped simply by my country of origin or the language I speak is as much a fallacy as stating it's defined by my astrological starsign.

dlouth15

tipparetops wrote: »

Irish should be mandatory for your leaving cert, its not flippin rocket science.

Of course. Because mandatory Irish in the leaving cert has been wonderfully successful over the decades in getting the public at large to speak Irish in their daily lives.

tipparetops

dlouth15 wrote: »

Of course. Because mandatory Irish in the leaving cert has been wonderfully successful over the decades in getting the public at large to speak Irish in their daily lives.

That is not the point, we all have to do things we do not like in life.
Some people would love the idea of picking any 6 subjects for their LC which is a disgrace,
everyone doing Home Ec, Art, Technology, Design etc for the easy grades.

It has not been successful but who is that down to , teachers, parents and students.
Teachers who cannot speak it, parents who do not care and students who want the easy life.

RecordStraight

tipparetops wrote: »

That is not the point, we all have to do things we do not like in life.

It kind of is the point. The current system has failed spectacularly. Yet suggestions by FG to change it caused uproar.

dlouth15

tipparetops wrote: »

That is not the point, we all have to do things we do not like in life.
Some people would love the idea of picking any 6 subjects for their LC which is a disgrace,
everyone doing Home Ec, Art, Technology, Design etc for the easy grades.

It has not been successful but who is that down to , teachers, parents and students.
Teachers who cannot speak it, parents who do not care and students who want the easy life.

Advertising slogan:

The Irish Language - because we all have to do things we do not like.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Your inital post said "Europe", the second one said "EU" - that's a different question. You STILL haven't explained what you mean by "pro minorities". Nor have you explained how any of these pegs me as a patriot or not. In any case, none of this tells you anything specifci or important about me.

To think I am shaped simply by my country of origin or the language I speak is as much a fallacy as stating it's defined by my astrological starsign.

so you are saying you are not shaped by your country or your language.

Look I think its best to not post at each other anymore, you are not being honest and so there is no point.
I asked you if you were pro minorities, I assume you are and will not answer yes as by doing so you will know you have been nobbled.
Because Irish speakers are in the minority.

tipparetops

dlouth15 wrote: »

Advertising slogan:

The Irish Language - because we all have to do things we do not like.

Answer my whole post, if we are to discuss this like equals than answer all my post.

tipparetops

RecordStraight wrote: »

It kind of is the point. The current system has failed spectacularly. Yet suggestions by FG to change it caused uproar.

answer all my post or do not answer.

dlouth15

tipparetops wrote: »

Answer my whole post, if we are to discuss this like equals than answer all my post.

I can't really see your point. Your point seems to be that Irish should be compulsory because we all have to do thing we don't like in life. But surely there should be some other reason than we don't like it. You don't seem to care that it hasn't been a successful policy over the years.

tipparetops

dlouth15 wrote: »

I can't really see your point. Your point seems to be that Irish should be compulsory because we all have to do thing we don't like in life. But surely there should be some other reason than we don't like it. You don't seem to care that it hasn't been a successful policy over the years.

Your still not answering the whole post, if you answer it properly I will answer the above post.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

so you are saying you are not shaped by your country or your language.

... in the same way it's not shaped by my starsign, as I said; that's correct, Yes.

Look I think its best to not post at each other anymore, you are not being honest and so there is no point.
I asked you if you were pro minorities, I assume you are and will not answer yes as by doing so you will know you have been nobbled.
Because Irish speakers are in the minority.

Again, you don't define pro-minority.

Irish speakers are a minority and I support their right to speak Irish.
Teenagers are a minority and I support their right to study what they choose to study.
Pedophiles are a minority but I do not support their right to have sex with children.

You're going to have to be more specific.

Grayson

tipparetops wrote: »

They are as the referendum showed.

I have stated that I can understand if people cannot learn the language,
but there is posters here who are against the language and i am not taking that sh1t. Either should you.
Irish should be mandatory for your leaving cert, its not flippin rocket science.
Do you not remember what the foundation and ordinary papers were like,
be fair.
If we all take the attitude to not fight back against people like this the language will be dead.

You are the reason the language will die. People don't hate languages. Why should they? It's not like I can suddenly develop a hatred of Russian. People may dislike how a language sounds but that's not hatred.

I have a friend who thinks a particular Irish (Non traditional) band are the best in the world. He's always talking about them. When he's around here having a few drinks, he puts them on. When we're in a car, he puts them on. I don't particularly like them but I live with it.

Now imagine 14 years of constantly having to listen to that music. You're forced to learn it in school. Now imagine some idiot who keeps telling you that you're not Irish and don't deserve to call yourself Irish if you don't like it. How much would you hate that band? How much would you hate you friend who kept playing the same set of songs. And would you willingly volunteer how

People don't hate Irish. People hate people like you. People who belittle them for not liking their band. People who have twisted superiority complexes. Maybe they have twisted inferiority complexes and need a reason to believe they're better than everyone else.

And by association they begin to avoid the Irish language. Why would they learn it? to talk to people like you? They don't want to talk to you in English. And your constant yammering on about how they'e not really Irish isn't going to remake them like the language any more.

tipparetops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... in the same way it's not shaped by my starsign, as I said; that's correct, Yes.



Again, you don't define pro-minority.

Teenagers are a minority - I support their right to study what they choose to study.

Thanks for more lies and dodging.
I declare you a hypocrite and nobbled.

dlouth15

tipparetops wrote: »

Your still not answering the whole post, if you answer it properly I will answer the above post.

What point do you feel I have not addressed?

You made two points in that post. One of which was that Irish should remain compulsory because "we all have to do things we don't like in life".

The other point was that although it was not successful that was not the fault of the system but everyone participating in the system. That is non-nonsensical. If we brought in any subject other than irish and everyone failed it when they seemed to be able to do reasonably well in other subjects we would not blame the students for that.

Un Croissant

tipparetops wrote: »

I know you feel like you are helping, but you are not.
I enjoy leading posters down the path I choose for them, making them look silly.
Now i have dealt with two silly gooses, its your turn.

What you have just posted above, what language is this. Gibberish.
I cannot answer something that makes no sense.

For the clarity of all posters:
People who speak Irish are Irish Celts.
People who speak English only are Anglo Irish.

anglos have more in common with some of our northern brethren.
I think posters like you embrace that, your choice.

You talk like a man who's winning a debate. More people go to church than speak Irish and look how that influence has been eroded away. And it's being done with a bang.

It's posters like you that make the silent death of Irish very satisfying. It's dying and no one cares enough to save it. The deluded few who think they are true Irish will babble on into obscurity while the rest of us are confident in our Irishness.

Should it come to a referendum, you'd be the person that they'd hide from the spotlight.

The language I used in my post was English btw. The language of the majority. The language you use. The language you need to use to get by in Ireland day to day. You need English. No one needs Irish. An utterly wonderful situation as I imagine your silent rage at using a foreign tongue for everything. Except maybe withdrawing money from the bank.

You need us to save your language, because people like you have failed spectacularly to do it for the last one hundred years.

dlouth15

tipparetops wrote: »

Your still not answering the whole post, if you answer it properly I will answer the above post.

Like you did this one?

tipparetops

Grayson wrote: »

You are the reason the language will die. People don't hate languages. Why should they? It's not like I can suddenly develop a hatred of Russian. People may dislike how a language sounds but that's not hatred.

I have a friend who thinks a particular Irish (Non traditional) band are the best in the world. He's always talking about them. When he's around here having a few drinks, he puts them on. When we're in a car, he puts them on. I don't particularly like them but I live with it.

Now imagine 14 years of constantly having to listen to that music. You're forced to learn it in school. Now imagine some idiot who keeps telling you that you're not Irish and don't deserve to call yourself Irish if you don't like it. How much would you hate that band? How much would you hate you friend who kept playing the same set of songs. And would you willingly volunteer how

People don't hate Irish. People hate people like you. People who belittle them for not liking their band. People who have twisted superiority complexes. Maybe they have twisted inferiority complexes and need a reason to believe they're better than everyone else.

And by association they begin to avoid the Irish language. Why would they learn it? to talk to people like you? They don't want to talk to you in English. And your constant yammering on about how they'e not really Irish isn't going to remake them like the language any more.

People hate me? You are getting very personal. How can you post something like that.
I feel very sad now.:mad:

dlouth15

tipparetops wrote: »

People hate me? You are getting very personal. How can you post something like that.
I feel very sad now.:mad:

I don't think he means you personally. Just people with your attitude.

tipparetops

dlouth15 wrote: »

I don't think he means you personally. Just people with your attitude.

No please dont.
He was very close to the bone and was a disgraceful post.

RecordStraight

tipparetops wrote: »

Thanks for more lies and dodging.
I declare you a hypocrite and nobbled.

Well if you declare it, it must be true. :rolleyes:

tipparetops

RecordStraight wrote: »

Well if you declare it, it must be true. :rolleyes:

Do you hate me as well.

RecordStraight

tipparetops wrote: »

People who speak Irish are Irish Celts.
People who speak English only are Anglo Irish.

What a load of piffle. Purest horse sh!te. The man has a prescription for Irishness. There's only one thing on it: speaking Irish for a few years in school before never using it again.

tipparetops

RecordStraight wrote: »

What a load of piffle. Purest horse sh!te.

are you also full of hate

RecordStraight

tipparetops wrote: »

Do you hate me as well.

Sounds more like you hate yourself, and everyone around you.

tipparetops

RecordStraight wrote: »

Sounds more like you hate yourself, and everyone around you.

post 872 you like it.
do you hate me

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

Thanks for more lies and dodging.
I declare you a hypocrite and nobbled.

Argumentum ad lapidem.

You really hate the fact that we've proven that people can actually lead a full and successful life, without a need for Irish, don't you?

G'night folks!

tipparetops

RecordStraight wrote: »

Sounds more like you hate yourself, and everyone around you.

Un Croissant wrote: »

You talk like a man who's winning a debate. More people go to church than speak Irish and look how that influence has been eroded away. And it's being done with a bang.

It's posters like you that make the silent death of Irish very satisfying. It's dying and no one cares enough to save it. The deluded few who think they are true Irish will babble on into obscurity while the rest of us are confident in our Irishness.

Should it come to a referendum, you'd be the person that they'd hide from the spotlight.

The language I used in my post was English btw. The language of the majority. The language you use. The language you need to use to get by in Ireland day to day. You need English. No one needs Irish. An utterly wonderful situation as I imagine your silent rage at using a foreign tongue for everything. Except maybe withdrawing money from the bank.

You need us to save your language, because people like you have failed spectacularly to do it for the last one hundred years.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Now that's just surreal!

You really hate the fact that I've proven that people can actually lead a full and successful life, without a need for Irish, don't you?

G'night folks!

I have no hatred for my fellow man or woman, none.
this is a topic that has been heated but for some posters to say they hate me and to go unchallenged by other posters is a disgrace.
I am disappointed mostly by you.

dr.fuzzenstein

tipparetops wrote: »

You can lie to yourself all you wish, the reason you do not speak Irish is because you cannot or you will not.
If you cannot, fair enough you tried but if you will not it is you choosing to be an Anglophile.

cén fáth a bhfuil tú ag postáil i mBéarla ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tipparetops wrote: »

I have no hatred for my fellow man or woman, none.
this is a topic that has been heated but for some posters to say they hate me and to go unchallenged by other posters is a disgrace.
I am disappointed mostly by you.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Argumentum ad lapidem.

You really hate the fact that we've proven that people can actually lead a full and successful life, without a need for Irish, don't you?

G'night folks!

facts =/= people - that's been the crux of your fallacy when it comes to love and hate: not knowing the difference between personal self, nationality and fact.

Lord PuppyMcSnuggle of Cuddleshire

I tried to speak Irish to a leprechaun and he looked at me like I'd ten heads. Sad times we live in.

jimgoose

Fick fackin' Paddies.

InTheTrees

tipparetops wrote: »

For the clarity of all posters:
People who speak Irish are Irish Celts.
People who speak English only are Anglo Irish.

anglos have more in common with some of our northern brethren.
I think posters like you embrace that, your choice.

What arrogant bigoted divisive nonsense.

dr.fuzzenstein

InTheTrees wrote: »

What arrogant bigoted divisive nonsense.

I asked him why he posted in English. But because I asked in Irish, he didn't understand me and didn't get back to me.
Treffer, versenkt!

Un Croissant

tipparetops wrote: »

I have no hatred for my fellow man or woman, none.
this is a topic that has been heated but for some posters to say they hate me and to go unchallenged by other posters is a disgrace.
I am disappointed mostly by you.

Do I have to challenge him? I'm one week away from retiring from the internet police.

Dan_Solo

tipparetops wrote: »

I know you feel like you are helping, but you are not.
I enjoy leading posters down the path I choose for them, making them look silly.

I can't wait for you to start then.

RecordStraight

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I can't wait for you to start then.

BURN! :pac:

FunLover18

tipparetops wrote: »

I have stated that I can understand if people cannot learn the language,

Good for you.

tipparetops wrote: »

but there is posters here who are against the language and i am not taking that sh1t.

*There are posters. And you are taking it, just not very well. For the record I am NOT against the language and would love to see it survive, but your attitude isn't helping.

tipparetops wrote: »

Either should you.

*Neither. And why not?

tipparetops wrote: »

Irish should be mandatory for your leaving cert, its not flippin rocket science.

Rocket science would be more useful. And why should it be mandatory, it has been mandatory for decades and the only thing it has done has turned people against the language and lowered the standards due to classes being held back by those uninterested.

tipparetops wrote: »

Do you not remember what the foundation and ordinary papers were like,
be fair.

I did ordinary level, it was easy, and I did it because it was an easy grade, almost as easy, I dare say, as art or home ec.

tipparetops wrote: »

If we all take the attitude to not fight back against people like this the language will be dead.

I doubt the vast majority are "against the language" but the vast majority are definitely dropping it after school because it's of no use. And if by "fighting back" you mean mandatory Irish for LC, we've been fighting back for decades and it hasn't changed. Maybe we need some new tactics, are or you happy for the language to stagnate in it's current status for a few more decades?

tipparetops wrote: »

That is not the point, we all have to do things we do not like in life.

What is the point? We all have to learn Irish even if we don't like it because … ? What's the end game?

tipparetops wrote: »

Some people would love the idea of picking any 6 subjects for their LC which is a disgrace,

Why is it a disgrace, students already choose 4 of their subjects? Are they ALL picking easy subjects? Are the sciences dying because they're too hard and no one is picking them?

Are you worried that if Irish were made optional, it would die, because frankly that's far more damming than admitting that it's just not as important to our national identity anymore and giving pupils the choice.

tipparetops wrote: »

everyone doing Home Ec, Art, Technology, Design etc for the easy grades.

Or foundation/ordinary Irish. Learn off a few essays on 'Clare sa Spéir' or 'Gealt' what could be easier. Also, god forbid pupils do students that they actually like.

tipparetops wrote: »

It has not been successful but who is that down to , teachers, parents and students. Teachers who cannot speak it, parents who do not care and students who want the easy life.

A combination. But making it optional is actually a very sensible approach of improving the way it is taught in the long run. Students who are truly interested in the language will be taking it, and some of them will be going on to teach it, not only that but by weedling out the students who aren't interested the standard can only go up even in the lower levels. As I said I did ordinary, and the amount of time we spent conjugating verbs in ordinary LEAVING CERT Irish was insane, unbelievable and that's because the students in the class had zero interest in learning the language, and after ten years of learning they still couldn't conjugate basic verbs. The pupils who do choose to do Irish are also more likely to pass the language onto their children.

Basically you can have the language stagnate as it is now, being learnt by those who don't want to learn it because YOU feel it's part of THEIR national identity, or you can accept that it's time for Irish to be left in the hands of those who truly appreciate (you're not alone you know)

If you are going to respond this I would appreciate it if you addressed every point, I'd like to discuss this like equals

Un Croissant

Seems Tipp is very upset about getting demolished in here. He has taken to calling my OH both a cheat and imaginary in another thread.

I'd hate to think what he'd say if he knew she's a member of a minority.

dr.fuzzenstein

Un Croissant wrote: »

Seems Tipp is very upset about getting demolished in here. He has taken to calling my OH both a cheat and imaginary in another thread.

I'd hate to think what he'd say if he knew she's a member of a minority.

In a battle of wits, never bring a feather duster to a gunfight.

Grayson

tipparetops wrote: »

I have no hatred for my fellow man or woman, none.
this is a topic that has been heated but for some posters to say they hate me and to go unchallenged by other posters is a disgrace.
I am disappointed mostly by you.

Who says they hate you? I didn't. I said people hate people like you. And they do. No-one likes a judgemental arrogant idiot looking down on them.

Personally I feel sorry for you. People were having a discussion about what could be done for the Irish language and you came in calling everyone Anglo Irish.

But you did say you came here to get a reaction and you got the one you wanted. So really, you're just trolling.

gormdubhgorm

Un Croissant wrote: »

Just watching the news and the Irish language is failing, even in the Gaeltacht.

I dont want to get into a debate with the misty eyed brigade about Irish being our first language etc.

Languages are only relevant if they are used. History or nationalism doesn't appear to be enough.

So with that in mind, how can we improve the position of Irish? Do we want to?

While it will never be our first language again, considering mass culture and the internet age, is there a case to be made for a strong second language?

Or should we look elsewhere? I guess I'm inviting the "let's all learn Chinese" gang to join the discussion.

I have always said the simple answer is compulsory all-irsh schools from playschool right through secondary level. For everyone no exceptions. Then the language will be used everyday. I cannot understand why it was not done at the foundation of the state. Problem solved. Otherwise kids are made do Irish in a bit part way at primary level which is too late.
Everyone hates rote learning, speak the f**king thing instead first!

The sad part is I bet the Irish children of foreign nationals would embrace it.
Whereas the Irish children of Irish parents would be taught to resent it.

gormdubhgorm

If the above solution is too radical.My alternative modern high tech solution would be to just teach computers and coding through Irish!

Grayson

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have always said the simple answer is compulsory all-irsh schools from playschool right through secondary level. For everyone no exceptions. Then the language will be used everyday. I cannot understand why it was not done at the foundation of the state. Problem solved. Otherwise kids are made do Irish in a bit part way at primary level which is too late.
Everyone hates rote learning, speak the f**king thing instead first!

The sad part is I bet the Irish children of foreign nationals would embrace it.
Whereas the Irish children of Irish parents would be taught to resent it.

I'd imagine it just wasn't possible. They probably had the same problem we do now. Where are you going to find that many qualified teachers who can speak fluent Irish. I doubt there were enough fluent speakers who could teach stuff like higher maths.

Aineoil

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It has been very interesting and informative to read everyone's point of view about the language.

I never answered Dan Solo's question. So here goes.

I didn't learn Irish to learn Italian - that would quite stupid.

I just felt that I was quicker than the others in my class at understanding the Italian sentence constructions because I had Irish.

When I went to primary school in the 70's and then secondary school in the 80's, there was no choice whether you learned Irish or not.

I found Irish easy basically because of my father. (He spoke Irish, he still does)

My husband is a native speaker and he sees the language as a tool of communication with the older people in his home place .

Generally we speak English at home.

I think compulsory Irish within the school system has had it's day. Change is needed. People are turned off by the language because it is

compulsory.

At the moment the aim of the Irish school curriculum by the end of 6th class is that children can have a conversation in Irish. They can't.

I'm a primary school teacher myself, and I loath the glazed look of some children when we have to "do" the Irish lesson.

I get the glazed look from some children when I do maths as well. But maths skills are life skills - they are needed, measurement like time,

length, capacity etc.

I would hate Irish to die out. I don't think it will because of the Gaelscoileanna. But the language has to evolve too. There are many purists that

are against that as well.