The Irish language is failing.

Aineoil

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If the above solution is too radical.My alternative modern high tech solution would be to just teach computers and coding through Irish!

Cén fáth? An bhfuil tairbhe ag baint le sin? Nílim ag magadh fuath. I ndáirire táim

fiosrach?

Deranged96

Grayson wrote: »

I'm proud of hiberno-english.

All you culture nazi's can feck off, ya feckin eejits.

Hiberno-English is just English that wasn't learned properly and then was taught to others.

ironic considering the topic at hand

Aineoil

Deranged96 wrote: »

Hiberno-English is just English that wasn't learned properly and then was taught to others.

ironic considering the topic at hand

There's no standard English.

English learned properly? I don't understand.

Zen65

tipparetops wrote: »

I do not think anyone can be confident in their national identity if they cannot speak their own language.

I suspect you have not given that too much thought at all, or else you have a very narrow sense of what "national identity" for Ireland is.

RecordStraight

Aineoil wrote: »

There's no standard English.

This. There are only versions of English.

Aineoil

RecordStraight wrote: »

This. There are only versions of English.

Well I don't understand some phrases used by Australians and some Americans. So

versions of English is a good description.

Zen65

Aineoil wrote: »

I think compulsory Irish within the school system has had it's day. Change is needed. People are turned off by the language because it is compulsory.

I suspect people are turned off Irish language because it offers so little benefit. It is not relevant to the internet-age, it will not offer an advantage in terms of a real job (translation into Irish is not a real job, IMO, as it is an unnecessary task being carried out solely for the purpose of keeping Irish speakers employed). There are some ridiculous requirements imposed around teaching, i.e. that a primary school teacher must have passed an Irish language exam, but again this is simply self-serving and not for any benefit beyond preserving the language.

Today's youth would rather spend time learning a language that enables them to communicate with more people, and not waste their time learning a language that does not increase their reach nor their relevance.

The language is dying. We should acknowledge that and move on. Learning Chinese, Japanese or Russian would be a better way to spend our time.

Deranged96

Aineoil wrote: »

There's no standard English.

English learned properly? I don't understand.

I never claimed there was a standard English.
I'm just saying that any differences in the way we speak English over here, as opposed to in England, is due to English not being learned well (in case the above is a dig on grammar?) and mistakes being passed down and accepted into the vernacular.

An example being the continuous present tense that came over from Irish, "My mother does be giving me hell"

Zen65

tipparetops wrote: »

If you cannot, fair enough you tried but if you will not it is you choosing to be an Anglophile.

Tipp, the world has moved on from the time when there was only Irish and English. People choosing not to learn Irish are not trying to become Anglophiles; they are choosing to make themselves more relevant in a world which does not speak the language.

Aineoil

Zen65 wrote: »

I suspect people are turned off Irish language because it offers so little benefit. It is not relevant to the internet-age, it will not offer an advantage in terms of a real job (translation into Irish is not a real job, IMO, as it is an unnecessary task being carried out solely for the purpose of keeping Irish speakers employed). There are some ridiculous requirements imposed around teaching, i.e. that a primary school teacher must have passed an Irish language exam, but again this is simply self-serving and not for any benefit beyond preserving the language.

Today's youth would rather spend time learning a language that enables them to communicate with more people, and not waste their time learning a language that does not increase their reach nor their relevance.

The language is dying. We should acknowledge that and move on. Learning Chinese, Japanese or Russian would be a better way to spend our time.

I agree with your post but I will be shot for what I'm going to say next.

Where I teach we have student teachers who are required as part of their

placement have to teach Irish. Most of them, not all, have no clue with regards

to the language. I have witnessed lessons with so many glaringly obvious

grammatical errors.

That's just sloppy preparation. Our children deserve better. Last year I had to

try and unteach a grammar point - not in a obvious way. I wasn't saying today

we are going to grammar - just repeated the phrases correctly.

Passing an Irish exam is all well and good but are you fluent in the language.

Zen65

Aineoil wrote: »

Where I teach we have student teachers who are required as part of their placement have to teach Irish. Most of them, not all, have no clue with regards to the language. I have witnessed lessons with so many glaringly obvious grammatical errors.

Yes, I have seen my own kids (when they were in school) with notes from their teachers which were full of basic grammar mistakes. I just smile now, because in a few short years I expect that our schoolteachers will be teaching Google-Irish. Right now they're seeing Google-Irish in the essays the kids hand in.

Aineoil

Deranged96 wrote: »

I never claimed there was a standard English.
I'm just saying that any differences in the way we speak English over here, as opposed to in England, is due to English not being learned well (in case the above is a dig on grammar?) and mistakes being passed down and accepted into the vernacular.

An example being the continuous present tense that came over from Irish, "My mother does be giving me hell"

In fairness you never claimed that there was a standard English.

I love the way the Irish have taken to English.

Language evolves. I love that.

Samuel Beckett
James Joyce
Flann O Brien
Brendan Behan
Oscar Wilde
Richard Brinsley Sheridan


They all made English their own and different.

jackofalltrades

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have always said the simple answer is compulsory all-irsh schools from playschool right through secondary level. For everyone no exceptions. Then the language will be used everyday. I cannot understand why it was not done at the foundation of the state. Problem solved. Otherwise kids are made do Irish in a bit part way at primary level which is too late.
Everyone hates rote learning, speak the f**king thing instead first!

Fairly sure making it compulsory to have lessons in Irish would be a breach of parents constitutional rights, to educate their own children.

The sad part is I bet the Irish children of foreign nationals would embrace it.

There are foreign nationals coming to this country that have no/very little English and have to try and learn the language from scratch.
Adding Irish on top of that, would make a difficult job impossible.

gormdubhgorm

Aineoil wrote: »

Cén fáth? An bhfuil tairbhe ag baint le sin? Nílim ag magadh fuath. I ndáirire táim

fiosrach?

Since your curious I will answer. There are some people who think that Irish is a waste of time. And that computer coding would be more benificial. That might be the compromise!

Aineoil

jackofalltrades wrote: »

There are foreign nationals coming to this country that have no/very little English and have to try and learn the language from scratch.
Adding Irish on top of that, would make a difficult job impossible.

Actually they are better than Irish children at Irish. They have no attitude about it.

The Polish children I teach have excellent English and their Irish is better than their

Irish counterparts.

briany

Aineoil wrote: »

In fairness you never claimed that there was a standard English.

I love the way the Irish have taken to English.

Language evolves. I love that.

Samuel Beckett
James Joyce
Flann O Brien
Brendan Behan
Oscar Wilde
Richard Brinsley Sheridan


They all made English their own and different.

The work of those authors is a testament to expressing an Irish view of the world through English.

The idea that English isn't a part of the Irish identity is a political fairytale because it's been here for hundreds of years, developing it's own dialect in Hiberno-English. It's important to remember that Gaelic came to Ireland as a foreign language itself, as the current evidence seems to indicate that there never was a Celtic invasion, but rather the people who'd been living here since the Neolithic age adopted Old Irish through trade links with Britain or the continent. They saw more use in speaking it than whatever unknown language they spoke at the time, and it's pretty safe to say the poetic sound of it had little influence on their decision.

gormdubhgorm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

making it compulsory to have lessons in Irish would be a breach of parents constitutional rights, to educate their own children.

There are foreign nationals coming to this country that have no/very little English and have to try and learn the language from scratch.
Adding Irish on top of that, would make a difficult job impossible.

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

briany

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

That's not a very nice way to talk about An Caighdeán Oifigiúil. :pac:

Grayson

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

Barely. It wasn't at first. Then after a lot of whining it became a "treaty language" and after more whining it became an official language.

At one point it also met the criteria for a dead language according to the EU.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

Section 3 of the above mentioned articale 8 states:

Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

This would need to be changed or scraped if education were deemed an official purpose.

LordSutch

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

Irish has become a recognised language alright, (but only within the last ten years or so), and only after a lot of pleading and whinging on behalf of this state! So after eight decades Irish is finally recognised by the EU, ironically just as alarm bells ringing re the ever shrinking number of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht.

Welsh on the other hand is not listed as an official EU language, even though it is flourishing, and going from strength to strength within the confines of the UK.

jackofalltrades

Aineoil wrote: »

Actually they are better than Irish children at Irish. They have no attitude about it.
The Polish children I teach have excellent English and their Irish is better than their Irish counterparts.

I'm was refering specifically to parents/students that have poor levels of English.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

ARTICLE 42

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State

Fairly sure this means you can't force children to be taught in Irish.
Since this wouldn't be respectful of parents who can't speak the language, but want to home school their kids.

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

Source?

Dughorm

Aineoil wrote: »

Actually they are better than Irish children at Irish. They have no attitude about it.

The Polish children I teach have excellent English and their Irish is better than their

Irish counterparts.

Wow that's quite something! Fair play, it's nice to imagine irish language as a tool for inclusiveness instead of the opposite in a lot of peoples experience here.

I had a look at bua na cainte on edco you mentioned previously. Would you happen to know if the interactive pc software is available or is it for teachers only? Thanks!

An Ciarraioch

LordSutch wrote: »

Irish has become a recognised language alright, (but only within the last ten years or so), and only after a lot of pleading and whinging on behalf of this state! So after eight decades Irish is finally recognised by the EU, ironically just as alarm bells ringing re the ever shrinking number of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht.

Welsh on the other hand is not listed as an official EU language, even though it is flourishing, and going from strength to strength within the confines of the UK.

And Manx has gone from the point from where it literally was extinct, to having a hundred speakers and schools in the language. Ironically, it took an English immigrant to lead the revival after the last native speaker died!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Fairly sure this means you can't force children to be taught in Irish.
Since this wouldn't be respectful of parents who can't speak the language, but want to home school their kids.

Articale 42 also states:
2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

It could be argued that not teahing your child irish would be in violation of this.

As I said earlier, article 8, which is cited as the article that instills Irish as the first language, also states that state services shall be provided in both langauges. So a consitutional change would be required to allwo the State to porvide education only in Irish.

Dughorm

Here's another reason for mandatory irish in schools...

So that the kids can learn their own national anthem and know what it means....

/gets popcorn

LordSutch

Dughorm wrote: »

Here's another reason for mandatory irish in schools...

So that the kids can learn their own national anthem and know what it means....

/gets popcorn

Something about Fianna Fail as I recall, and then . . . . .?

Can't remember the words, just the tune to doodle my way through (as do many).

Un Croissant

The national anthem is a dreary affair, whatever language you sing it in.

But what could replace it? Fairytale of New York? maybe that's for another thread.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Un Croissant wrote: »

The national anthem is a dreary affair, whatever language you sing it in.

But what could replace it? Fairytale of New York? maybe that's for another thread.

Been done. Middle of the recession, if I recall - best asnwer was not to have one, just hae two minutes memorial silence instead.

Un Croissant

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Been done. Middle of the recession, if I recall - best asnwer was not to have one, just hae two minutes memorial silence instead.

Nothing like some silence to get you riled up to trash the English... or for 95% of our team to join the English side and trounce the poor Irish speaking keeper.

jackofalltrades

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Articale 42 also states:
2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

It could be argued that not teahing your child irish would be in violation of this.

My post was referring to teaching students in all subjects through Irish, rather than whether they should be taught Irish or not.

lizzyman

For what it's worth, I wish they would stop trying to flog a dead horse and just let Irish die. Nasty sounding language (to my ears anyway) and this nonsense of having road signs and all official documents also available in Irish is a pointless waste of time and money.

lizzyman

Deranged96 wrote: »

Hiberno-English is just English that wasn't learned properly and then was taught to others.

ironic considering the topic at hand

+1000

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

I'd imagine it just wasn't possible. They probably had the same problem we do now. Where are you going to find that many qualified teachers who can speak fluent Irish. I doubt there were enough fluent speakers who could teach stuff like higher maths.

Possibly true in the 1920s, should have been possible by the 1940s after two decades worth of primary education with Irish being taught.

An Ciarraioch

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

And Manx has gone from the point from where it literally was extinct, to having a hundred speakers and schools in the language. Ironically, it took an English immigrant to lead the revival after the last native speaker died!

I saw a TV programme where the Manx revival was discussed and it died because the remaining native speakers had no interest in continuing with the language, nor did they support any attempts to revive it.

It had to die first!

dr.fuzzenstein

Deleted User wrote: »

I saw a TV programme where the Manx revival was discussed and it died because the remaining native speakers had no interest in continuing with the language, nor did they support any attempts to revive it.

It had to die first!

So maybe the same is true for Irish? If it were let to die, people would flock to revive it. Suddenly it would be cool. Imagine that as a concept! :P:D

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So maybe the same is true for Irish? If it were let to die, people would flock to revive it. Suddenly it would be cool. Imagine that as a concept! :P:D

Probably is for many of the older speakers, not so much for younger ones. Not at all for younger people who want to use it as a second language.

whisky_galore

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So maybe the same is true for Irish? If it were let to die, people would flock to revive it. Suddenly it would be cool. Imagine that as a concept! :P:D

Linguistic hipsters?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jackofalltrades wrote: »

My post was referring to teaching students in all subjects through Irish, rather than whether they should be taught Irish or not.

Yeah, I know - but the quoted article requires for the government to provide services for said education in both lanaguges - so teaching only in Irish (all subjects) would reqire a referendum.

CruelCoin

Grayson wrote: »

I'd imagine it just wasn't possible. They probably had the same problem we do now. Where are you going to find that many qualified teachers who can speak fluent Irish. I doubt there were enough fluent speakers who could teach stuff like higher maths.

God, i can see it now....Kids thumbing furiously through their english-irish dictionaries while the teacher is going through calculus in his/her finest donegal accent.

What a disaster that would be.

PopePalpatine

CruelCoin wrote: »

God, i can see it now....Kids thumbing furiously through their english-irish dictionaries while the teacher is going through calculus in his/her finest donegal accent.

What a disaster that would be.

Why do you hate the Gaelgóirí cine máistir? :pac:

mickydoomsux

Irish is a complete waste of teaching time and resources in already overburdened schools and should be entirely removed from the curriculum. People can teach their kids irish at home if they want.

We may as well be teaching them how to repair tube televisions and rotary telephones for all that Irish is worth in the modern world.

The Corinthian

Ahhh... the tedious Irish language debate.

On one side, people with a hatred for the language, having been force fed it for 12 years with nothing to show for it, who would like nothing more than to see it die.

On the other side, Gaelgores playing out our own version of the dead parrot sketch, denying that there's any problem with the language and claiming that numbers are rising, despite it being clear that it is and has been in decline for decades, with statistics reporting its health being laughably collated at this stage.

Search through some of the threads here from ten or fifteen years ago and you'll see their posts telling us how the Gaelscoils had ushered in a revival in the language. Yet, here we are again.

In the middle, a few are left who would like to see the language being actually used, but have seen absolutely no vision or reform in the language's handling for decades and are not expecting to see any - least of all from the Gaelgores.

It's like sitting in a hospital, by the bedside of a dying relative and almost wishing it was over.

mickydoomsux

It would be over pretty quickly if all government support for the language was pulled.

dr.fuzzenstein

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It would be over pretty quickly if all government support for the language was pulled.

Maybe not, see linguistic hipsters.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The Corinthian wrote: »

Ahhh... the tedious Irish language debate.

On one side, people with a hatred for the language, having been force fed it for 12 years with nothing to show for it, who would like nothing more than to see it die.

On the other side, Gaelgores playing out our own version of the dead parrot sketch, denying that there's any problem with the language and claiming that numbers are rising, despite it being clear that it is and has been in decline for decades, with statistics reporting its health being laughably collated at this stage.

Search through some of the threads here from ten or fifteen years ago and you'll see their posts telling us how the Gaelscoils had ushered in a revival in the language. Yet, here we are again.

In the middle, a few are left who would like to see the language being actually used, but have seen absolutely no vision or reform in the language's handling for decades and are not expecting to see any - least of all from the Gaelgores.

It's like sitting in a hospital, by the bedside of a dying relative and almost wishing it was over.

Read back, we have the ideas. We've expressed rhem .

Don't force it - conplsion is counterproductive.
Engage kids that are starting school.
Teach it as a language not a school subject.
Teach it as you would a second language, not a first.
Train people who are passionate about it to share their passion.

What we lack is the power and ability to actually engage the powers that can make these changes in open discussion.

briany

Un Croissant wrote: »

Just watching the news and the Irish language is failing, even in the Gaeltacht.

♪On a cold and gray An Spidéal morn, a poor little Gaelic child is born in the Gaeltacht....

And his mathair cries.♪

The Corinthian

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It would be over pretty quickly if all government support for the language was pulled.

It won't be pulled overnight. While the language is not quite the same sacred cow it once was, there are still too many vested interests and politically it is still a little to sensitive to do this.

I'd expect to see it's mandatory status in education and government eroded slowly. Eventually this would eventually lead to budgetary cuts, as this is where real opposition will appear - when the jobs associated with Irish would become threatened. And finally, it's nominal status as 'first language' will remain long after it's gone.

Unfortunately, and I do mean unfortunately, that's where I see it all going in the long run.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Read back, we have the ideas. We've expressed rhem .

I've not said people have no ideas. I've said that on one side the only idea held is to see the language die and the other side the language is alive and well and how dare you suggest otherwise - that middle ground has either become the exception, rather than the rule, increasingly or has been abandoned to apathy.

Train people who are passionate about it to share their passion.

Evangelists? Great; just what the Irish educational system needs more of.

What we lack is the power and ability to actually engage the powers that can make these changes in open discussion.

Who is 'we' exactly?

Iwasfrozen

lizzyman wrote: »

For what it's worth, I wish they would stop trying to flog a dead horse and just let Irish die. Nasty sounding language (to my ears anyway) and this nonsense of having road signs and all official documents also available in Irish is a pointless waste of time and money.

+1000

darkpagandeath

Can I ask, What are the origins of Irish ? There were people here before the celts.