The Irish language is failing.

Summer wind

In our house when Irish homework is being done all I hear from my husband to the children is "ask your mother". I wonder what he was doing in school during Irish class:) I'm not a fluent Irish speaker but I have enough to get by. I would hate to see the language die out completely because it's ours and ours alone. Hopefully it won't.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

People usually only use the same few hundred words from day to day and ones ability to spell those words has no real bearing on general communication and comprehension.

So I'll just echo what's already been said and say that the number one priority is to teach conversational Irish. Spend 90% of class time learning the language through actual spoken use of it. My written Irish was always at the same level as my spoken Irish (just about okay) which ultimately meant I got on fine in exams but was never really useful for general conversation.

As children we learn how to speak a language by talking it out loud, by interacting with our environment, by making mistakes in 'real time', correcting those mistakes and moving passed them while gaining a little bit more confidence each time in our ability to use words and sentences to express ourselves. Irish is learned in an unnatural way in school, it is done by mainly listening, rote learning and writing it down with a pencil. This needs to change.

OneArt

Knasher wrote: »

I've long been of the opinion that all languages but English are going to decline in the long term. It is the language of the internet and of most mass market entertainment, more and more people learn it as a second language, and unlike people with English as a primary language, they actually have cause to use it.

I doubt other languages will decline dramatically. Russian, Spanish and Mandarin Chinese have more native speakers than English.

What's likely to happen (actually it's happening now) is that there will be two types of English, English as an International Language or trading language and 'native' English. Other major languages will not disappear but probably will (and again, already are) be influenced heavily by English vocabulary-wise, a lot like Latin influenced modern European languages.

Just going by history, it's likely that English will evolve into separate languages like Latin and the English as we know it will become a dead language, recorded in books and beaten into children for decades to come because it had such historical importance. And those unfortunate children will still have to learn Irish.

Blue Badger

Can we not just ban the language? Tell Irish people not to do something and it's the one thing you're guaranteed!!

Sam Kade

Alice Gifted Zenith wrote: »

Sorry, I must have missed it, who blamed the British for this?

How do you think we all started talking English

feargale

wakka12 wrote: »

We should learn from Israel, they successfully revived hebrew in their country and funnily enough used Ireland as a model of how not to revive a dead(ish) language.

There is nothing to be learned from the Israeli model and too much time has been wasted talking about it, while nothing of it has been put into practice because nothing could be.
Israel was composed of a diverse group of people speaking various languages, where a lingua franca was a necessity, and it was as easy to choose Hebrew as the common means of communication as any other language. Contrast that with a small language spoken in isolated pockets on the western edge of a small country competing in a straight contest with the world's number one language, the latter being the everyday language of more than 95% of that small country's small population, and no other language being in the equation.
Few endandered languages have faced such insurmountable odds. I'm sorry that I don't have a cast-iron solution to your aspirations, but one thing I'm sure of - a failure or refusal to recognise realities will do sweet damnall for Irish.

Dughorm

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Irish is learned in an unnatural way in school, it is done by mainly listening, rote learning and writing it down with a pencil. This needs to change.

Totally agree... and on top of that we spend millions translating government documents 99.5% of the public doesn't want or understand - it's absolutely mental.

Ban the copy book in primary school and make it speaking only - the writing can follow in secondary school like with the foreign languages.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

People usually only use the same few hundred words from day to day and ones ability to spell those words has no real bearing on general communication and comprehension.

So I'll just echo what's already been said and say that the number one priority is to teach conversational Irish. Spend 90% of class time learning the language through actual spoken use of it. My written Irish was always at the same level as my spoken Irish (just about okay) which ultimately meant I got on fine in exams but was never really useful for general conversation.

As children we learn how to speak a language by talking it out loud, by interacting with our environment, by making mistakes in 'real time', correcting those mistakes and moving passed them while gaining a little bit more confidence each time in our ability to use words and sentences to express ourselves. Irish is learned in an unnatural way in school, it is done by mainly listening, rote learning and writing it down with a pencil. This needs to change.

Teaching conversational Irish is obviously, and clearly, the emphasis that can do justice to the language. However, putting 30 students of widely varying ability in a single class, and telling a single teacher to teach and manage that number of teenagers conversing is utterly dishonest. It will never happen. The state knows this. Every student knows this. Every teacher knows this. If people learn English in an EFL class, there will be at most 15 students in each class (I've taught EFL). That is manageable, there a single teacher can monitor and assist in conversation.

30 students to a single teacher is a joke of the most offensive sort. Has anybody ever explained how one teacher can monitor conversation in this context? People blaming the teaching of Irish and demanding conversation classes, without looking at the size of the classes are not joining the dots in a fair way. In short, to teach Irish as a living conversational language requires far smaller classes - just as practical subjects like art and science are all much smaller. This costs more money, so it looks like teachers will be scapegoated for the failure to teach Irish by all the usual suspects. The massive class sizes are the obvious principal problem (optional languages like French and Spanish always had far smaller class numbers than Irish in my school).

The overwhelming amount of money available for Irish should by put into halving the number of students in each class. End the excessive printing jobs and other nonsense and get those classroom numbers down. Then, and only then, will we see a significant improvement. The current system is deeply unfair to teachers of Irish, and it suits all those in power to blame the teachers rather than their refusal to fund realistic class sizes.

languagenerd

I studied sociolinguistics for a while in college and did my dissertation on bilingualism in Spain - it's incredible to see how quickly the minority languages in Spain, particularly Catalan in all its forms, have bounced back after the end of dictatorship. The languages were banned for decades, but now in some of the Catalan-speaking regions, almost everyone is bilingual in Catalan and Spanish (regions that only officially became bilingual in the 80s).

I think we should look at how they did it and see if Irish can be taught that way. Kids there do some subjects through Spanish and some through Catalan so they pick it up naturally as they go along. I wonder if something like that could work in Irish primary schools - teach things a couple subjects through Irish and get the kids talking (Art would be a good one. Maybe one of the social sciences as well.)

My Irish teacher in secondary school (in 2008ish) admitted to us that she wasn't able to teach us a love for the language, because the curriculum didn't allow it. Too much literature, not enough conversation or just free thinking. I know it's changed since (oral exam is now worth 40% I think), but not enough. The level most people have upon leaving primary is not enough for a literature/essay-heavy secondary one.

Learning a second language makes it easier to learn more languages, gives you new perspectives and teaches you certain problem-solving skills. Irish might enrich our identity as well, if we wanted it. I can't see it happening at this stage though, unless there's a big push on speaking it in social settings.

Reiver

People lump us in with the Brits and Yanks often enough as it is. Having our own language is something distinct at least. Working in my fifth country right now and I always get disbelieving looks when I say most people don't speak Irish in Ireland. I'm always surprised at the vitriol that can be directed towards it at times.

One of the oldest living languages in Europe with a written tradition. Without an understanding of Irish you can't appreciate the meaning of the majority of our placenames, the majority of our mountains are Irish named, it's where I first got the interest.

I've heard it said that the perversity of Irish mentality means that if we were to ban the language and imprison those using it, we'd have the language brought back from the brink in a fortnight.

Sad to hear the Gaeltachts are finally on their last legs though they did always have that air of "oh lets go see where people speak Irish". There are still thousands of native speakers scattered across the island, just in the Galltacht. Its tough for a language to keep going when it's no longer a community one.

I can understand people saying its a fringe language and of little use and that we should be learning Mandarin/Spanish/Whatever. Look at the figures for languages in Ireland though. Abysmal. One of the lowest in Europe because "everyone speaks English". Learning a second language in school from an early age is great and as someone who is learning his 4th language at the moment, I can assure you that learning one language really helps with learning others!

I don't want to see it become the purview of the middle classes and seen as a bit of snobbery "o well we speak Irish". It is the national language and something that shouldn't be let go. Obviously reform is needed in education. An Triail for all it's acclaim is not something teenagers should have to write essays on when they can't even hold a conversation in the language. I'm teaching English right now and it's not hard to get someone communicative in a language with a bit of practice. As has been pointed out, Welsh, Hebrew, Catalan all manage to survive and thrive.

Shep_Dog

Sand wrote: »

That is the key question: what do we want out of the Irish language? Why do we want it to survive? What is the purpose of spending so much time and money on it? .

It is the main aim of Conradh na Gaelge to restore Irish as the common language of Ireland.

Resistance is futile.

RecordStraight

mikeym wrote: »

What does the minister of the gealteacht think....

Oh wait he dont speak Irish too well.

Nice to have a minister that represents most of us, for a change.

darkpagandeath

It's not failing. People are choosing to communicate through a different language that is the way of the world. People choose the most common useful form of communication. It would be argued we should instead of Teaching Irish in Schools be teaching Forms of Chinese.

galljga1

wendell borton wrote: »

The welsh language is going strong at the moment, couldn't we just copy them.

No!
How the hell do you pronounce Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch?

darkpagandeath

galljga1 wrote: »

No!
How the hell do you pronounce Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch?

Think of LL like Th.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's not failing. People are choosing to communicate through a different language that is the way of the world. People choose the most common useful form of communication. It would be argued we should instead of Teaching Irish in Schools be teaching Forms of Chinese.

People also choose to communicate in a language the feel allows them to express themselves.

This idea falls into the same trap as the Irish does: teaching a school subject because it gets points on exams and not because it helps students learn how to express themselves.

stefanovich

I wish I had paid more attention to Irish as a kid. Moving here as a kid from England I always resented having to learn it and found it a bit of a struggle to catch up. The stuff that stuck with me was from primary school. In secondary it was very poorly taught I thought. Now I wish I could speak it properly.

darkpagandeath

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

People also choose to communicate in a language the feel allows them to express themselves.

This idea falls into the same trap as the Irish does: teaching a school subject because it gets points on exams and not because it helps students learn how to express themselves.

The problem is people think a language is intrinsically linked to culture. Where as culture develops over time adds removes different items it's constantly evolving. At one time Irish culture was expressed though the Irish language. Now it's expressed differently, That does not say that any is better or worse it's what people have chosen as a collective.

ch750536

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Think of LL like Th.

Th in english dialect or Tr (Irish dialect)

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

If anything it's growing. It's dipping at gealtrach areas possibly due to emigration amongst the younger generations.
My kids are fluent and learning at 6 and 3 respectively .

Are you fluent?

I'd love to be, but I'm not. So I certainly wouldn't foist it on my daughter. I would hope she would like to learn it when she is old enough to make a decision.

Dirty Dingus McGee

The only way you'll revive it is to start with the youth.It's too late for anyone who's past school age.If all primary schools became gaelscoileanna then a whole generation would be fluent by the time they were 12 would be using the language on a day to day basis in conversation with their friends and it would be spoken outside of school as well and eventually grow as a language.

Making all primary schools gaelscoileanna wouldn't be that difficult and it would revive the language.

Also the teaching of it needs to be based on speaking the language.The way Irish is taught in schools is appalling and is one of the main reason the language is not prospering.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The only way you'll revive it is to start with the youth.It's late for anyone who's past school age.If all primary schools became gaelscoileanna then a whole generation would be fluent by the time they were 12 would be using the language on a day to day basis in conversation with their friends and it would be spoken outside of school as well and eventually grow as a language.

Making all primary schools gaelscoileanna wouldn't be that difficult and it would revive the language.

Also the teaching of it needs to be based on speaking the language.The way Irish is taught in schools is appalling and is one of the main reason the language is not prospering.

I would not be in favour of that whole gaelscoileanna for middle class families who use their kids to show how much they care about Irish stuff. Surely if it is to have any hope it has to start by fostering a desire amongst adults to learn it, rather than demanding that their kids learn it. If it's not good enough for adults, why should they insist that their kids learn it? We, rightly, give out about the "inculcate them when they're too young to know different" attitude when it comes to religion.

darkpagandeath

On a side note, Where does all the money go if in fact people are speaking Irish less and less even in the Areas it was spoken primarily ?

Donne

The strange thing is, we got my best level of Gaeilge‎ in 6h class primary!

When we went to secondary school we started almost from the basics again at a much level that 6th year.

Someone in the Edu. Department, shoud get their **** together.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Deleted User wrote: »

I would not be in favour of that whole gaelscoileanna for middle class families who use their kids to show how much they care about Irish stuff. Surely if it is to have any hope it has to start by fostering a desire amongst adults to learn it, rather than demanding that their kids learn it. If it's not good enough for adults, why should they insist that their kids learn it? We, rightly, give out about the "inculcate them when they're too young to know different" attitude when it comes to religion.

It's too late for adults.Most people don't have enough time for it and learning a language is not easy so realistically you are not going to get too many adults wanting to learn it. So the only way is through children in my opinion.

I'd love to be able to speak Irish but don't want to put in any effort and learning your native language really shouldn't be an effort it should be something that is natural.You have all primary schools as Irish speaking schools and it becomes natural for children to be speaking it and learning the language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

darkpagandeath wrote: »

The problem is people think a language is intrinsically linked to culture. Where as culture develops over time adds removes different items it's constantly evolving. At one time Irish culture was expressed though the Irish language. Now it's expressed differently, That does not say that any is better or worse it's what people have chosen as a collective.

Cultural is one of the worst reasons for doing anything en masse. It just doesn't allow for individual expression, which is the one thing lacking in Western education.

Let the individual decide if they want to express themsleves that way and make the resources available to them if they do.

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The only way you'll revive it is to start with the youth.It's too late for anyone who's past school age.If all primary schools became gaelscoileanna then a whole generation would be fluent by the time they were 12 would be using the language on a day to day basis in conversation with their friends and it would be spoken outside of school as well and eventually grow as a language.

Making all primary schools gaelscoileanna wouldn't be that difficult and it would revive the language.

Also the teaching of it needs to be based on speaking the language.The way Irish is taught in schools is appalling and is one of the main reason the language is not prospering.

Again, this goes totally against the idea of expression. Ask yourself: who wants the langauge revived; and who will be putting the work in to revive it? And why are they putting the work in?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Cultural is one of the worst reasons for doing anything en masse. It just doesn't allow for individual expression, which is the one thing lacking in Western education.

Let the individual decide if they want to express themsleves that way and make the resources available to them if they do.



Again, this goes totally against the idea of expression. Unless you can prove every primary school student in the country really wants to learn Irish.

In fairness primary school children don't know what they want.I doubt they want to learn Maths as well but they do because they're told to do it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

In fairness primary school children don't know what they want.I doubt they want to learn Maths as well but they do because they're told to do it.

And therein lies the second worst reason for doing something - "because you're told to".

Kids learn Maths because it's an essential skill in adult life. Irish isn't.

darkpagandeath

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

In fairness primary school children don't know what they want.I doubt they want to learn Maths as well but they do because they're told to do it.

Maths is different it's a core part of modern life linked in to everything you need a basic understanding of it.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And therein lies the second worst reason for doing something - "because you're told to".

Kids learn Maths because it's an essential skill in adult life. Irish isn't.

Fair enough.

Then the language is going to die.If the language is to be revived then it needs to start with younger people and start teaching the language properly and putting more emphasis on it so it become s more important in life.

Almost everything you learn is school is pointless anyway and has no application in the real world but we still do it because we are told to do it.

darkpagandeath

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Fair enough.

Then the language is going to die.If the language is to be revived then it needs to start with younger people and start teaching the language properly and putting more emphasis on it so it become s more important in life.

Almost everything you learn is school is pointless anyway and has no application in the real world but we still do it because we are told to do it.

Why is it falling out of use in Area's that spoke it fluently ?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I'd love to be able to speak Irish but don't want to put in any effort...

I understand this.

I just don't get the "but I'll make my children put in the effort" part. It all seems a bit twee to me, gaelscoileanna became trendier than piano lessons in the 90s. It's like the father who was no good at sports screaming at his kid from the sidelines, making him do all the graft. If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for my kid...but if I don't I won't insist she will.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Fair enough.

Then the language is going to die.If the language is to be revived then it needs to start with younger people and start teaching the language properly and putting more emphasis on it so it become s more important in life.

If it dies, it dies. But it will die because the ineptitude and stubbornness of those charged with reviving it. The rest of the your post is perfectly true, but my point is that you don't need to go down the road of converting every primary schol into a gaelscoil to do it.

As I said ages ago - teach it as a language that allows you to express yourself and not as a school subject to get points on an exam and the langauge will revive itself. Force people to learn it and you get what you've got. And for some reason beyond my comprehension, people seem happy with this.

Almost everything you learn is school is pointless anyway and has no application in the real world but we still do it because we are told to do it.

You've summed up the two biggest problems with Western education systems perfectly in one sentence.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand this.

I just don't get the "but I'll make my children put in the effort" part. It all seems a bit twee to me, gaelscoileanna became trendier than piano lessons in the 90s. It's like the father who was no good at sports screaming at his kid from the sidelines, making him do all the graft. If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for my kid...but if I don't I won't insist she will.

It won't have any real negative affect on me or most people in this country if the language is never spoken again but it would be sad for it to die out and it reflect badly on the country that we have let it get to this stage.It is an appalling badly taught language and after 13 years of classes I've barely any Irish when really after all that time I should be fluent in it.

If there is to be a revival of the language and I suspect a lot of people who may not want to put the effort in don't want to see it die either than you have to start with young people who won't see learning it as a chore.That is really the only realistic way to improve things.

anncoates

Would be better to see the language taught differently. Not rote learning, grammar and anachronistic literature. Teach it in a contemporary sense with emphasis on conversational fluency.

I wasn't born here so was technically exempt in school but still opted to do it (badly).

It's only when you get older and interested in history or just visit places like the Blaskets that you get more of an appreciation for the unique historical aspects of our language.

I think we need to tap into that nationalistic, cultural thing somehow, that it's a unique historical part of our national identity, to get people interested again.

I don't think the national language necessarily needs to be jettisoned just because it doesn't look good on a Google or IBM CV.

pablomakaveli

I hated Irish in school but since i left i've come to regret not being able to speak it fluently and learning it is something i hope to achieve at some point.

You can always make the argument that minority languages like Irish, Welsh, Basque etc are pointless because English, French etc are more widespread but thats sort of missing the point. You let the language die and it's gone. Is it right for us to make that decision for future generations.

The approach to the language in Ireland is completely wrong. The way it's thought for a start is ridiculous. How can you learn a language by reading poetry and stories and answering questions or learning off an essay about a "timpiste mór". I learned more French in secondary school than Irish because French was taught correctly.

Also laws like having to translate governement documents into Irish is a waste of resources. Take half that money and invest it in more useful and productive programs to promote the language like say conversational Irish classes for adults. The rest can go back into the health service or education where more money is needed anyway.

darkpagandeath

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I hated Irish in school but since i left i've come to regret not being able to speak it fluently and learning it is something i hope to achieve at some point.

You can always make the argument that minority languages like Irish, Welsh, Basque etc are pointless because English, French etc are more widespread but thats sort of missing the point. You let the language die and it's gone. Is it right for us to make that decision for future generations.

The approach to the language in Ireland is completely wrong. The way it's thought for a start is ridiculous. How can you learn a language by reading poetry and stories and answering questions or learning off an essay about a "timpiste mór". I learned more French in secondary school than Irish because French was taught correctly.

Also laws like having to translate governement documents into Irish is a waste of resources. Take half that money and invest it in more useful and productive programs to promote the language like say conversational Irish classes for adults. The rest can go back into the health service or education where more money is needed anyway.

Languages die off it's life should We resurrect Cornish for example ? People no longer speak Old English or many many languages. Babylonian anyone ?

looksee

I am a non-Irish-speaking Brit - though I can more or less understand quite a lot of things like phrases and place names etc. My kids grew up learning Irish by the 'here is an essay in Irish, learn it by heart' method, which was utterly pointless.

Some people have a gift for languages - I don't - let them opt to learn Irish in Secondary school, because they want to. All younger children learning Irish in the way they do at the moment, as part of daily conversation in primary school, would give them an idea of whether they want to continue on with it.

It would be better to teach children good, grammatical, accurate English for communication purposes, and let those who want to, develop their Irish. The end result would hopefully be a core of people who are interested in, and enthusiastic about Irish, rather than a whole lot of people who have no time for it at all.

Un Croissant

I'm glad we have avoided the "it's our first language" *fingers in ears* routine.

I'm sure if people put a bit of pressure on the government, things might change. But why change it if no one cares? It's only when it becomes a headache that they'll look at it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Kids learn Maths because it's an essential skill in adult life. Irish isn't

This statement is profoundly untrue. Sums are essential, and kids learn them in primary school. In secondary school, quadratic equations, calculus, trigonometry and so, so much else are what the state spends its money "teaching" kids. The vast, vast majority of adults do very well in life without ever using any of that stuff from the day they leave school.

Niemoj

I'd hate for Irish to die out but at the same time it is so badly taught in schools that it probably will continue to decline.

I started learning Chinese for the fun of it and so far it's great stuff haha.

我是爱尔兰人！

ressem

looksee wrote: »

I am a non-Irish-speaking Brit - though I can more or less understand quite a lot of things like phrases and place names etc. My kids grew up learning Irish by the 'here is an essay in Irish, learn it by heart' method, which was utterly pointless.

Some people have a gift for languages - I don't - let them opt to learn Irish in Secondary school, because they want to. All younger children learning Irish in the way they do at the moment, as part of daily conversation in primary school, would give them an idea of whether they want to continue on with it.

It would be better to teach children good, grammatical, accurate English for communication purposes, and let those who want to, develop their Irish. The end result would hopefully be a core of people who are interested in, and enthusiastic about Irish, rather than a whole lot of people who have no time for it at all.

Hopefully things have changed, but the teachers' primary priority seemed to be a silent 'standard' classroom, as though we were in training to be cloistered monks transcribing religious texts.
If our spoken english relied on the curriculum, we'd be communicating with tongue clicks and arm gestures.

Kids aren't thick, and can remember lyrics, tunes and tones of a hundred songs in non-native languages, which remain for decades after the modh coinnealach has rotted away; only the rhyme/incantation/open sesame "an bhfuil cead agam dul amach go dtí an leithreas, más é do thoil é" and maybe the national anthem (half understood) remain.

pablomakaveli

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I hated Irish in school but since i left i've come to regret not being able to speak it fluently and learning it is something i hope to achieve at some point.

You can always make the argument that minority languages like Irish, Welsh, Basque etc are pointless because English, French etc are more widespread but thats sort of missing the point. You let the language die and it's gone. Is it right for us to make that decision for future generations.

The approach to the language in Ireland is completely wrong. The way it's thought for a start is ridiculous. How can you learn a language by reading poetry and stories and answering questions or learning off an essay about a "timpiste mór". I learned more French in secondary school than Irish because French was taught correctly.

Also laws like having to translate governement documents into Irish is a waste of resources. Take half that money and invest it in more useful and productive programs to promote the language like say conversational Irish classes for adults. The rest can go back into the health service or education where more money is needed anyway.

Good post (although I suspect there were fewer students in your French class). I'd like the money put into halving the size of classes to, say, 15 students and thus make it possible for all Irish classes to be conversation-based. That would be a game changer.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

This statement is profoundly untrue. Sums are essential, and kids learn them in primary school. In secondary school, quadratic equations, calculus, trigonometry and so, so much else are what the state spends its money "teaching" kids. The vast, vast majority of adults do very well in life without ever using any of that stuff from the day they leave school.

The post I was responding to specifically stated "primary" school, so in effect we're saying the same thing.

As for the rest, I'd be all in favour of making maths optional in secondary school on the basis that, if kids don;t have enough maths ability for everyday live by the age of 13 or so, then something has gone wrong and forcing them to do geometry is not going to resolve the issue.

4zn76tysfajdxp

The thought of Irish being confirmed to be on the way out is saddening to me, I must say.

astrofool

It's not part of our daily lives and hasn't been for decades, walk around and the only Irish seen is on the street signs, and maybe the odd pub name trying to be a bit twee (and a choice on Bank of Ireland ATMs), shops, products, the internet, are absent of Irish.

It's also a bit disingenuous to blame the teaching of it, the same teachers manage other subjects perfectly fine, the will to learn Irish, especially when forced, just isn't there with school going kids.

If the biggest argument for keeping it is that it would be a "shame" if it disappeared, then it's already dead. I'd agree that there is a rhythmic quality to the language which is useful in the arts, but then, so does ancient Greek and Latin.

Dirty Dingus McGee

astrofool wrote: »

It's not part of our daily lives and hasn't been for decades, walk around and the only Irish seen is on the street signs, and maybe the odd pub name trying to be a bit twee (and a choice on Bank of Ireland ATMs), shops, products, the internet, are absent of Irish.

It's also a bit disingenuous to blame the teaching of it, the same teachers manage other subjects perfectly fine, the will to learn Irish, especially when forced, just isn't there with school going kids.

If the biggest argument for keeping it is that it would be a "shame" if it disappeared, then it's already dead. I'd agree that there is a rhythmic quality to the language which is useful in the arts, but then, so does ancient Greek and Latin.

It's not the teachers that is the problem.Its the course that is taught by them.Irish is taught in the same way English is taught by getting you to read and analyse poetry,stories etc however although that's reasonably OK for English as everyone can speak it fluently it's completely pointless for Irish as most students cannot speak it fluently.The teaching of the language should focus on getting you to learn how to speak it fluently first and foremost and anything after that is a bonus.

darkpagandeath

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

It's not the teachers that is the problem.Its the course that is taught by them.Irish is taught in the same way English is taught by getting you to read and analyse poetry,stories etc however although that's reasonably OK for English as everyone can speak it fluently it's completely pointless for Irish as most students cannot speak it fluently.The teaching of the language should focus on getting you to learn how to speak it fluently first and foremost and anything after that is a bonus.

One of the major issues is that babies pick up the English cadences before they learn to speak. So they are predisposed to speaking English and that's why Irish cadences seem alien.

Un Croissant

I think teaching it like a foreign language is like an admission of defeat for Irish enthusiasts. Admitting it is alien to the majority people wouldn't sit well.

darkpagandeath

Un Croissant wrote: »

I think teaching it like a foreign language is like an admission of defeat for Irish enthusiasts. Admitting it is alien to the majority people wouldn't sit well.

Why is it on the decline in areas that used to speak it fluently ?