The Irish language is failing.

briany

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Can I ask, What are the origins of Irish ? There were people here before the celts.

Based on the current archaeological evidence (subject to change), the Celts never 'invaded' Ireland the way they invaded Britain, so meat and veg of the Irish genetic stew is still thought to be those waves of more-or-less unknown peoples who came to Ireland's shores in prehistoric times. As for where Irish came from, it is thought to have arrived here, in a proto- form via trade links with Britain or the continent, and gradually became the language to speak if you wanted to get ahead, replacing whatever mumbo-jumbo people were speaking at the time. Historians can't seem to agree on a period of introduction, but it seems to have been a fair way BC.

darkpagandeath

briany wrote: »

Based on the current archaeological evidence (subject to change), the Celts never 'invaded' Ireland the way they invaded Britain, so meat and veg of the Irish genetic stew is still thought to be those waves of more-or-less unknown peoples who came to Ireland's shores in prehistoric times. As for where Irish came from, it is thought to have arrived here, in a proto- form via trade links with Britain or the continent, and gradually became the language to speak if you wanted to get ahead, replacing whatever mumbo-jumbo people were speaking at the time. Historians can't seem to agree on a period of introduction, but it seems to have been a fair way BC.

That's what I thought. Some people go on like the celts committed some kind of genocide instead of only having a small presence in Ireland.

gormdubhgorm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I'm was refering specifically to parents/students that have poor levels of English.




Fairly sure this means you can't force children to be taught in Irish.
Since this wouldn't be respectful of parents who can't speak the language, but want to home school their kids.

(See other comments above on article 8 by myself an another poster)
I willing to be corrected but since Irish is part of the hertitage of the state I believe it will also have protection under European law. Particulary as it is now an "official" language in the EU. Since EU law is said to take precedent to Irish law I am fairly sure that Ireland would win the case if they went with the all-Irish schools plan.
Maybe a constitutional lawyer/European lawyer can fill in the gaps a bit here for me here a bit?


As for the source of children of foreign nationals picking up the Irish Language better then the Irish kids a teacher has commented on this thread that this in fact true.


As for the general attitude to foreigners learning the Irish language I think the following article sums up the attitude Irish people have unfortunately
http://http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/radio-documentary-follows-foreigners-learning-irish-1.1853989

gormdubhgorm

What amazes me is that Hungary managed to revive Hungarian but Ireland has made a balls of it.

Over a hundred years ago the idea was to copy the Hungarian's
Here is a article I found paralleling the Irish/Hungarian national language "crusade" and how Thomas Davis had a romantic view about the Irish languages revival written by a Hungarian (in English the lingua franca of the world :eek:).

http://webbut.unitbv.ro/BU2012/Series%20IV/BULETIN%20IV/03_Pinter_red.pdf

I think that Ireland's youth is now more concerned with talking like American's "like" and following the Kardashians then the modh coinniollach!

gormdubhgorm

Grayson wrote: »

Barely. It wasn't at first. Then after a lot of whining it became a "treaty language" and after more whining it became an official language.

At one point it also met the criteria for a dead language according to the EU.

Yeah and now they have people hired in Europe to translate any Irish

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/irish-becomes-the-23rd-official-language-of-eu-430615.html

AnLonDubh

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Can I ask, What are the origins of Irish ? There were people here before the celts.

Basically what briany said. Proto-Celtic arrived in Ireland via the continent from a small number of Celtic settlers. It then evolved into a distinctive form of Celtic, i.e. Irish, over the next few centuries.

That Irish is dying/on the verge of extinction should be no surprise to anybody who is familiar with the Gaeltacht. The chance to revive it was already missed by the 1940s and Irish people dont seemed to have wanted to speak it anymore. I love it and its linguistic history myself, but c'est la vie.

darkpagandeath

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah and now they have people hired in Europe to translate any Irish

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/irish-becomes-the-23rd-official-language-of-eu-430615.html

Do we have any Irish only speaking politicians ?

FunLover18

darkpagandeath wrote:

Do we have any Irish only speaking politicians ?

They'd never get elected given the majority of constituencies are English speaking.

jackofalltrades

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

(See other comments above on article 8 by myself an another poster)
I willing to be corrected but since Irish is part of the hertitage of the state I believe it will also have protection under European law. Particulary as it is now an "official" language in the EU. Since EU law is said to take precedent to Irish law I am fairly sure that Ireland would win the case if they went with the all-Irish schools plan.
Maybe a constitutional lawyer/European lawyer can fill in the gaps a bit here for me here a bit?

What part of Article 8 gives you the right to tell people what language they can teach their children in?
Article 8 Section 3 only refers to "official purposes", which I would understand to mean when dealing with the state.
You would be stretching the definition in my opinion to apply it to citizens/private organisations.

As for the source of children of foreign nationals picking up the Irish Language better then the Irish kids a teacher has commented on this thread that this in fact true.

As for the general attitude to foreigners learning the Irish language I think the following article sums up the attitude Irish people have unfortunately
http://http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/radio-documentary-follows-foreigners-learning-irish-1.1853989

One teacher and a radio documentary isn't really the source I was looking for. I was thinking more in the line of a study.

Aineoil

Dughorm wrote: »

I had a look at bua na cainte on edco you mentioned previously. Would you happen to know if the interactive pc software is available or is it for teachers only? Thanks!

I'm not sure if it's available for parents. For schools you pay for a licence to

access the site on the internet for a school year. I think, if I remember

correctly, the licence cost around 70 euro for the year but I stand to be

corrected on that.

The children's books cost extra about 8 euro for the Junior Infant book.

Last year I went to a presentation about the new scheme where I met Martina

Ní Fhátharta and Seán de Brún - the creators of the new program.

I am acquainted with Seán (nice man). He comes from a village near me.

I have no invested interest in promoting the scheme. I have just met him a few

times.

Ok I do waffle on.

But Seán and Martina were only thinking about the program in regards to

teachers. Maybe they have ideas about parental involvement? I don't know.

If you have no objection I can contact Seán tomorrow and ask him?

Croissant might know Seán as well?

You could also look at Séideán Sí. It's used primarily in Gaelscoileanna. The

program gives you the 3 canúintí. Bua na Cainte was based on Séideán Sí.

All the best!

dr.fuzzenstein

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Do we have any Irish only speaking politicians ?

Half the Dail would not know what they're on about.
But if it happened, Ireland would be one step close to being Switzerland, in as much that we would need translators in our National parliament so we can all understand each other.

Irish is all good and well, but let's do a cost-benefit analysis.
How much would it cost to make sure all educational institutions and in fact all state controlled bodies were Irish speaking only? What difficulties would it present to new and existing foreigners?
Now imagine if the entire country speaks Irish only. Inevitably English would suffer. That means foreigners would have trouble living here, multi nationals could face the same problems, international communications would run into trouble, where would you find an Irish>Hungarian translator?
Yes, we (well you, cause I don't speak Irish) could all sit back in our seats, put our hands behind our heads and say "Yes! We have our language back!". But is it really worth it?
Imagine if all business we conduct with the English speaking world at large now has to go through translators and interpreters? it would cost many hundreds of millions, cause massive delays and cause ten times that in damage to the Irish economy. Irish has to stay a nice pet/vanity project, if it were to succeed, it would ruin Ireland.

gormdubhgorm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Do we have any Irish only speaking politicians ?

I think a lot of them would Irish speaking because they were múinteoir in a former life.
Off the top of my Enda Kenny, Micheál Martin, Mary Hanifin, and of course Enda Kenny.

The dail is riddled with former teachers!

dlouth15

Joshua Fishman's steps in reversing language shift.

From wikipedia:

1. Acquisition of the language by adults, who in effect act as language apprentices (recommended where most of the remaining speakers of the language are elderly and socially isolated from other speakers of the language).
2. Create a socially integrated population of active speakers (or users) of the language (at this stage it is usually best to concentrate mainly on the spoken language rather than the written language).
3. In localities where there are a reasonable number of people habitually using the language, encourage the informal use of the language among people of all age groups and within families and bolster its daily use through the establishment of local neighbourhood institutions in which the language is encouraged, protected and (in certain contexts at least) used exclusively.
4. In areas where oral competence in the language has been achieved in all age groups encourage literacy in the language but in a way that does not depend upon assistance from (or goodwill of) the state education system.
5. Where the state permits it, and where numbers warrant, encourage the use of the language in compulsory state education.
6. Where the above stages have been achieved and consolidated, encourage the use of the language in the workplace (lower worksphere).
7. Where the above stages have been achieved and consolidated encourage the use of the language in local government services and mass media.
8. Where the above stages have been achieved and consolidated encourage use of the language in higher education, government, etc.

If there's any wisdom to this theory then you can see where we've gone wrong. Note the "where this has been achieved" in several of the points. In some respects we've followed the reverse of his list of steps.

Although I'm not qualified to say whether these steps are the one's we should follow, I think it illustrates a need for completely fresh thinking on the matter. Get outside experts to objectively assess the state of the language and formulate a realistic strategy. Stop listening to vested interests.

LordSutch

How about a referendum?

Question;
Do you agree with keeping Irish as a compulsory subject in school from junion infants right up until the leaving cert? Yes / No.

Yes I agree that it should be a mandatory subject right through . . . . .
No I think it should be non compulsory after the Inter cert.

Scrap it altogether for the sake of the children?

Any thoughts?

Dan_Solo

dlouth15 wrote: »

Joshua Fishman's steps in reversing language shift.

From wikipedia:

1. Acquisition of the language by adults

This proposal has already failed at step 1 as adults do not want to use Irish, even whatever bit they know from school.

FutureGuy

I'd have kids learning Chinese or German at school instead of Irish. If they want to learn it, they can do so at their leisure later on in life.

IMHO it's a waste of classroom time. Irish and Religous Education should be optional classes at the very most.

FutureGuy

lizzyman wrote: »

For what it's worth, I wish they would stop trying to flog a dead horse and just let Irish die. Nasty sounding language (to my ears anyway) and this nonsense of having road signs and all official documents also available in Irish is a pointless waste of time and money.

It is a complete waste of money. Irish is the past and we are clinging onto it out of habit at this stage.

There's alot to be said for translating official documents in Polish or another language that is of use in 2015, not 1915.

gormdubhgorm

FutureGuy wrote: »

I'd have kids learning Chinese or German at school instead of Irish. If they want to learn it, they can do so at their leisure later on in life.

IMHO it's a waste of classroom time. Irish and Religous Education should be optional classes at the very most.

In my day it was German because the wall came down!

I think the attitude to Irish has to change it is always treated with resentment by Irish people. I am not sure if this resentment will change because it seems deeply ingrained at this stage. It's a pity.

dlouth15

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This proposal has already failed at step 1 as adults do not want to use Irish, even whatever bit they know from school.

Yes, we got it wrong from the start. There was a lot of delusional thinking going on when the original policies were being put together.

The basic delusion was that Irish was not being spoken by the population at large because it was being actively suppressed by the British. Remove the British (and their suppression of the language) and the tongue of the Gael will spring back to life.

But I don't think Fishman is talking about getting a whole country to speak a nearly dead language. I believe he's talking about the steps necessary to get a language to a self-sustaining stage from the verge of extinction. So Dublin, for example, may never be an Irish speaking city (i.e. where Irish is the dominant language) but communities elsewhere may achieve this.

Note that in his list, the State only becomes involved about half-way down. The onus has to be on those who wish to see the language revived in the first place. They would be the adults who pass it on. Only when they have a achieved a certain amount would the State get involved and only in those areas where this has been achieved.

I agree with this. The heavy hand of the State has done most in terms of killing the language but like I said earlier this is due to delusional thinking.

PopePalpatine

German might actually be a very smart choice. Their population is declining little by little, so they will need to boost their workforce.

velo11

I think it boils down to how its taught in the schools. I learnt German and French in Germany and France respectively. Irish should be taught through Irish full stop. Instead kids have to trawl through tons of poems written in the 16th century from a teacher who hasn't enough Irish to teach it solely through Irish. The primary purpose of Irish classes should be to ensure everyone has a good ability to speak it and understand the basics elements of grammar. Too much emphasis is put on Irish literature etc. That's comes later! When I was learning German and French there was no emphasis on literature until I reached a fluent level. Its all down to attitude and the educational elite in this country take decades to change anything. Pilot programs should be setup around the country to try out different methods of teaching. The educational department should travel to countries like Sweden and the Netherlands where they get language learning consistently right. We shouldn't give up on our language. Its actually lovely to listen to and it was the first language to be standardised in Europe. We should be proud of it. Language learning is hard but its worth it. It opens up a whole new dimension to understanding a culture. We get direct insight into what was important to people in this country over the last centuries. No book translation can ever be the same. I'm sure 'War and Peace' is far superior in Russian than it is translated into English.

jackofalltrades

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am not sure if this resentment will change because it seems deeply ingrained at this stage. It's a pity.

Make it optional for Leaving Cert. years.
This will stop a lot of the hate students have towards it.
As they won't associate being forced to learn Irish with the stressful Leaving Cert. years.

You'll then be more likely to get them to re-engage with the language in later life.

RecordStraight

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Make it optional for Leaving Cert. years.
This will stop a lot of the hate students have towards it.
As they won't associate being forced to learn Irish with the stressful Leaving Cert. years.

You'll then be more likely to get them to re-engage with the language in later life.

This was, of course, the proposal from FG (and Lab?), but they got blown out of it for daring to suggest it.

dlouth15

RecordStraight wrote: »

This was, of course, the proposal from FG (and Lab?), but they got blown out of it for daring to suggest it.

I suspect this was from a relatively small number of people with vested interests in the status quo.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The Corinthian wrote: »

It won't be pulled overnight. While the language is not quite the same sacred cow it once was, there are still too many vested interests and politically it is still a little to sensitive to do this.

I'd expect to see it's mandatory status in education and government eroded slowly. Eventually this would eventually lead to budgetary cuts, as this is where real opposition will appear - when the jobs associated with Irish would become threatened. And finally, it's nominal status as 'first language' will remain long after it's gone.

Unfortunately, and I do mean unfortunately, that's where I see it all going in the long run.

I've not said people have no ideas. I've said that on one side the only idea held is to see the language die and the other side the language is alive and well and how dare you suggest otherwise - that middle ground has either become the exception, rather than the rule, increasingly or has been abandoned to apathy.

Evangelists? Great; just what the Irish educational system needs more of.

Who is 'we' exactly?

Evangelists...?? Wtf did d you get that idea from...??

'We' are the people you don't seem to want to believe exist - the middle ground ,- those who dont see it as black and white. We don't speak, have no desire to learn, but don't want to see it die either.

Doesn't mean we're thick though. We still have ideas about language conservation and development and pedagogics. Ideas that would work.

dlouth15

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think the attitude to Irish has to change it is always treated with resentment by Irish people. I am not sure if this resentment will change because it seems deeply ingrained at this stage. It's a pity.

If it was a small number of people refusing to speak Irish when everyone else is happily getting along in that language then you could blame the few for having a bad attitude.

But I don't think it makes sense to complain about the general attitude of an entire country without looking at the factors that brought about that attitude.

If an entire class fails, you don't look at the pupils; you look at the teacher.

At what point do those in officialdom take responsibility?

Zen65

LordSutch wrote: »

Scrap it altogether for the sake of the children?

Thanks, that made me smile

dr.fuzzenstein

I think Peig Sayers has a lot to answer for.

The Corinthian

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Evangelists...?? Wtf did d you get that idea from...??

Is that not what people who are "passionate" about something, tend to do?

'We' are the people you don't seem to want to believe exist - the middle ground ,- those who dont see it as black and white. We don't speak, have no desire to learn, but don't want to see it die either.

I don't seem to want to believe exist? Bit aggressive there, especially as I actually listed this middle ground to begin with. Question is how big is this group? Are 'we' a large number or a rapidly irrelevant demographic?

Doesn't mean we're thick though. We still have ideas about language conservation and development and pedagogics. Ideas that would work.

Off you go then. When you finally give up you'll understand why I did.

dlouth15

Perhaps you should set out your stall Corinthian. What do you want to see happen with regards to the question of the Irish language? How do you think it should be brought about?

Zen65

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We don't speak, have no desire to learn, but don't want to see it die either.

Doesn't mean we're thick though. We still have ideas about language conservation and development and pedagogics. Ideas that would work.

But these are ideas for other people to implement, aren't they?

Respectfully, while your intentions may be wholesome, they contribute nothing to the solving of the problem unless you are willing to put your own effort, or your own money, behind those ideas.

The Corinthian

dlouth15 wrote: »

Perhaps you should set out your stall Corinthian. What do you want to see happen with regards to the question of the Irish language? How do you think it should be brought about?

Use the search function and you'll see what I've suggested in the past. I'm past the point at this stage of repeating myself for no purpose.

dlouth15

The Corinthian wrote: »

Use the search function and you'll see what I've suggested in the past. I'm past the point at this stage of repeating myself for no purpose.

No need. I'll take your word for it that they were fantastic suggestions and that they were ignored because of ignorance of the other posters and not because of any deficiencies in the suggestions themselves.

The Corinthian

dlouth15 wrote: »

No need. I'll take your word for it that they were fantastic suggestions and that they were ignored because of ignorance of the other posters and not because of any deficiencies in the suggestions themselves.

Don't worry, I don't actually care what you think. Save your effort for chasing your tail elsewhere.

briany

Zen65 wrote: »

But these are ideas for other people to implement, aren't they?

Respectfully, while your intentions may be wholesome, they contribute nothing to the solving of the problem unless you are willing to put your own effort, or your own money, behind those ideas.

No-one outside of language enthusiasts sees the state of Irish as a problem. It's no more a problem than not everyone being able to play the fiddle, in terms of people's everyday lives. The Irish language has simply undergone a process which many languages have, there's nothing especially tragic or unnatural about the fact that we all speak English, given that we're next door to one of the, historically, greatest world powers.

dlouth15

The Corinthian wrote: »

Don't worry, I don't actually care what you think. Save your effort for chasing your tail elsewhere.

Suit yourself.

Dughorm

On today's irish times:

My family moved to Ireland from Nigeria when I was naine years old and they put me into a Gaelscoil, Lis na nÓg in Ranelagh. I had some English but not a word of Irish. After a year and a half of listening, I’d grown into the language. For the first three years of secondary school, I went to a Gaelscoil in Cabra. The commute from Adamstown became too much so I moved to this school. I love it here.
The Irish language has stayed with me. I feel very privileged to have it. Perhaps it’s coming at it as an outsider which has spurred me on.
But, while I am good at Irish, I’m not so good at French. I think this is because I am dyslexic, which can make it difficult to pick up a language. I was immersed in Irish 24/7; I only did French a few times a week, and most of the syllabus is based around textbooks.

Dughorm

Here's the link http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/student-diary-henry-kareem-people-laughed-with-happiness-1.2242232

Interesting on many levels
1. has a positive attitude
2. only had some English
3. only started from when he was nine
4. finds irish better than french due to the Gaelscoil's full immersion approach.

An uplifting inclusive report I must say :-)

dr.fuzzenstein

Dughorm wrote: »

Here's the link http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/student-diary-henry-kareem-people-laughed-with-happiness-1.2242232

Interesting on many levels
1. has a positive attitude
2. only had some English
3. only started from when he was nine
4. finds irish better than french due to the Gaelscoil's full immersion approach.

An uplifting inclusive report I must say :-)

Uplifting alright. Meanwhile my company is trying to recruit French speakers.
Ah well, they will have to be brought in from France. Queue cries of "Dey took our Jerbs!".

K4t

Dughorm wrote: »

An uplifting inclusive report I must say :-)

Unfortunate is the word I'd use. That time being immersed in Irish would have been better utilized perfecting his English, and/or a European language such as French or German.

Dughorm

K4t wrote: »

Unfortunate is the word I'd use. That time being immersed in Irish would have been better utilized perfecting his English, and/or a European language such as French or German.

Well his family decided to move to Ireland and wanted him to be well versed in both our country's languages, not unfortunate at all...

With such a good attitude he'll go far!

Dughorm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Uplifting alright. Meanwhile my company is trying to recruit French speakers.
Ah well, they will have to be brought in from France. Queue cries of "Dey took our Jerbs!".

I would have thought given the high praise to the way we teach french in this thread that there should be no shortage of irish born french speakers applying, no?

Maybe the comparisons made to the way french is taught are a red herring?

PopePalpatine

Dughorm wrote: »

Well his family decided to move to Ireland and wanted him to be well versed in both our country's languages, not unfortunate at all...

With such a good attitude he'll go far!

I suppose an Irish quango could do with a token foreigner.

Dan_Solo

The Corinthian wrote: »

Don't worry, I don't actually care what you think. Save your effort for chasing your tail elsewhere.

Why did you bother making 18,000+ posts here if you don't give a ****e what anybody thinks...

Dughorm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I suppose an Irish quango could do with a token foreigner.

Harsh!

It's amazing how positively disposed people can be to Irish who aren't natives In my experience. No hangups!

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Harsh!

It's amazing how positively disposed people can be to Irish who aren't natives In my experience. No hangups!

Well the thing is you've probably convinced yourself that if only Irish was taught in manner X or Y then everybody in the land would suddenly love it refuse to speak any other language again.
The problem is this is nonsense. Nobody wants to speak it, no matter what their proficiency level is or how easy it was for them to learn.

K4t

Dughorm wrote: »

Well his family decided to move to Ireland and wanted him to be well versed in both our country's languages, not unfortunate at all...

With such a good attitude he'll go far!

I'm sure he will, though perhaps he could have gone that bit further had a slightly more practical approach been taken by his parents.

briany

Dughorm wrote: »

Harsh!

It's amazing how positively disposed people can be to Irish who aren't natives In my experience. No hangups!

To be fair, just because the child of resident non-natives speaks it, or one passes a couple of Spanish people sitting outside a café in Galway speaking it doesn't necessarily lend credence to the idea that foreign people take up the language with any more zeal. It's confirmation bias to see a few foreign people who are into it (and fair play to them, btw) and assume that means there's a higher proportion of that demographic who are receptive to speaking Irish. I could just as easily form the bias in the other direction in foreign people I've talked to where Irish did not come up. Does that mean they were completely ignorant of the language? Either way, you need hard statistics.

Dunford

the only way you will become proficient in speaking ANY language is if you use it every day. that just isnt going to happen for the vast majority of Irish citizens.....therefore a dying language. its been dying for years.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well the thing is you've probably convinced yourself that if only Irish was taught in manner X or Y then everybody in the land would suddenly love it refuse to speak any other language again.
The problem is this is nonsense

Never suggested this. Why does one have to be monolingual?