The Irish language is failing.

Dughorm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Just to be clear we are agreed that Irish should be taught in primary school. But there is nothing "reasonable" about insisting that students MUST continue that education through to LC. It is reasonable to offer them the option to do so.

Is that your opinion on English and Maths as well, which for all intents and purposes are mandatory as well?

Dughorm

Grayson wrote: »

It was written into the constitution that the catholic church was the national religion. The constitution originally had a bit that says the church had a special place in Ireland. You can't deny that Catholicism isn't/wasn't a huge part of the state for a very long time.

But I wasn't? I'm not the person who dragged the constitution into this discussion. I just don't see it as relevant. The irish language is not a religion nor bound to any one religion.

Dughorm

dlouth15 wrote: »

"There's no cover - being able to converse in all the national languages is vital in my book to getting a rounded education in this country."

So if you don't converse in Irish you haven't had a rounded education. How is that not your argument? The problem is that you aren't able to justify the statement on educational grounds.

your interpretation of my argument makes it appear that I think irish should be part of the world's education and that people are somehow uneducated or not properly educated without it.... not at all.

A rounded irish education includes education in the national languages. that's all it's not like I'm judging any person's command of the language

Grayson

Dughorm wrote: »

But I wasn't? I'm not the person who dragged the constitution into this discussion. I just don't see it as relevant. The irish language is not a religion nor bound to any one religion.

I do think it was all bound together in what the nationalists considered an Irish identity.

Bayberry

Grayson wrote: »

It was written into the constitution that the catholic church was the national religion. The constitution originally had a bit that says the church had a special place in Ireland. You can't deny that Catholicism isn't/wasn't a huge part of the state for a very long time.

People go on about the Catholic Church like it was something foreign that was imposed on us.

Unlike many other countries (especially in the English speaking world, where Irish and Italian nuns, priests and bishops were imported in huge numbers), the Catholic Church in Ireland was run by and for Irish people by Irish People. Irish people born and reared in Ireland went on to become the priests and bishops that their families, their friends, their communities and Irish society in general expected them to be.

The "Special Position" of the Catholic Church wasn't "imposed" on the people - when Bunreacht n hÉireann was ratified by the Irish people (56.5% to 43.5%) - the main opposition to that article was from people who felt that it didn't go far enough in recognizing the Catholic Church! If anything, that article was considered quite liberal by International standards - nobody else in Europe at the time was giving explicit recognition to the Jewish faith, for a start. When that reference was removed in 1972 (with 84% approval), it wasn't because Ireland had become cast off some imaginary Catholic shackles, it was because a population that was still very comfortable with it's traditional sense of itself as largely Catholic, agreed that it didn't serve any useful purpose, and wasn't needed. It was absolutely not seen as an attack on Catholicism, or the role of the Catholic Church in Irish life in general.

The Wikipedia article on the 5th Amendment gives a decent overview, (though it might wreck the heads of some more "modern" thinkers, who are convinced that their grandparents were all feeeble minded people who were tterly incapable of thinking for themselves, and were brainwashed into abject obedience to an overweening foreign power)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

dr.fuzzenstein

briany wrote: »

I think, if you've ever seen the film 'Office Space', Peter's little speech to the Bobs about his cubicle job, you could apply a lot of what he says to Irish class.

"And then (after arriving) I just sorta space out for about 40 minutes."

"Eh?! Space out?!"

"Yeah, I just stare at my desk....but it looks like I'm working. I'd say, in a given week of Irish classes, I only do about 15 minutes real, actual work."

It's not that I'm lazy, I just don't care.

Dughorm

Grayson wrote: »

I do think it was all bound together in what the nationalists considered an Irish identity.

Are these people "in power" today? Have they been in years? if you read contemporary irish poetry you would be (pleasantly?) surprised I suspect!

Mandatory irish ensures equal opportunities for everyone to engage with the language no matter their identity or identities!

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

Mandatory irish ensures equal opportunities for everyone to engage with the language no matter their identity or identities!

Optional Irish would also ensure equal opportunities for everyone to engage with the language no matter their identity or identities. This isn't an argument for mandatory Irish.

Carlos Orange

Dughorm wrote: »

Mandatory irish ensures equal opportunities for everyone to engage with the language whether they want to or not!

FTFY

K4t

Bayberry wrote: »

What function does Shakespeare or poetry serve? For that matter, what function does any mathemathics beyond basic arithmetic serve for 90% of people? When was the last time that you needed to know the volume of a sphere or the area of a trangle?

Many of the themes of the tv shows and movies we watch can be traced back to Shakespeare's works, and much of the vernacular we use everyday was coined by the Bard. It's not so much about the act itself of finding the volume and area of the sphere and triangle respectively, but rather the knowing that they exist, what they are, their uses etc. That knowledge is important and valuable.

The success of Gaelscoileanna (from an educational outcome point of view) is all the proof that anyone should need that learning Irish shouldn't be a waste of time. The only valid argument for not making every single National school in the country a Gaelscoil is the resource issue - we just don't have the teachers.

It's not proof of anything of the sort. It is proof that many parents send their kids to a Gaelscoil to get an advantage in Irish, or because the school might have a better reputation than other schools nearby, or because they place importance on their kids knowing the Irish language. That's their choice, but it should be a CHOICE.

Dughorm

K4t wrote: »

Many of the themes of the tv shows and movies we watch can be traced back to Shakespeare's works, and much of the vernacular we use everyday was coined by the Bard.

So much of the English we use in Ireland can be traced to Irish, many themes in Irish theatre and arts can be traced to works in the Irish language etc...

Dughorm

psinno wrote: »

Originally Posted by Dughorm
Mandatory irish ensures equal opportunities for everyone to engage with the language whether they want to or not !

FTFY

And its the same for English and Maths for all intents and purposes.

Irish shouldn't be the preserve of the few, neither should poetry or geometry - it's for everyone, now that's an education I can believe in.

K4t

Dughorm wrote: »

So much of the English we use in Ireland can be traced to Irish, many themes in Irish theatre and arts can be traced to works in the Irish language etc...

Of course. But we're talking about the most commonly spoken language in the world v the historic language of Ireland - they're simply nowhere near of equal importance, especially considering practically nobody speaks Irish in this country in daily life outside of a few very small, isolated areas. English is our national language. If you really cared about Irish culture past and present, and the future of the country, you'd be advocating that history be made compulsory for the leaving cert; not forcing everyone to learn a language that is simply no longer spoken by the vast majority of Irish people.

LordSutch

Dughorm wrote: »

So much of the English we use in Ireland can be traced to Irish, many themes in Irish theatre and arts can be traced to works in the Irish language etc...

Indeed, which gives the English language a unique flavour all of its own here in Ireland namely "Hiberno English" which is English with an Irish twist. And that's as close as most of us want to get to the Irish language itself, which is at the best of times, a dusty auld bridge too far for most Irish people in the modern era . . . .

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Irish shouldn't be the preserve of the few

It should if only the few gives a shyte about it.

K4t

Dughorm wrote: »

And its the same for English and Maths for all intents and purposes.

Irish shouldn't be the preserve of the few, neither should poetry or geometry - it's for everyone, now that's an education I can believe in.

As long as you understand this bit, and accept that the vast majority of people would disagree with you that Irish is in any way as important as Maths or English. You must even notice that the education you believe in is in the minority here on boards. A small sample, perhaps about as small as the amount of people speaking Irish right now..

Dan_Solo

K4t wrote: »

It's not proof of anything of the sort. It is proof that many parents send their kids to a Gaelscoil to get an advantage in Irish, or because the school might have a better reputation than other schools nearby, or because they place importance on their kids knowing the Irish language. That's their choice, but it should be a CHOICE.

So this. Gaelscoils do appear to result in good grades, but if this happens "because of Irish" is entirely unproven. There's other factors (catchment area, parental interest in learning in general, historic good grades leading to competition for places etc) that could all be just as important.

Dughorm

K4t wrote: »

Of course. But we're talking about the most commonly spoken language in the world v the historic language of Ireland - they're simply nowhere near of equal importance, especially considering practically nobody speaks Irish in this country in daily life outside of a few very small, isolated areas. English is our national language. If you really cared about Irish culture past and present, and the future of the country, you'd be advocating that history be made compulsory for the leaving cert; not forcing everyone to learn a language that is simply no longer spoken by the vast majority of Irish people.

That's not correct - English is one of our national languages, Irish is the other one. I didn't think English was the most commonly spoken language in the world, isn't it the 4th or so?

We should learn the Shakespeare, all of us, it is good. But so should we learn the Irish, which is also good.

I don't agree with your statement about advocating history as a compulsory subject - history is not a national language, it is wrapped in ideology. We've had enough compulsory ideology in our schools in my opinion.

Bayberry

K4t wrote: »

Many of the themes of the tv shows and movies we watch can be traced back to Shakespeare's works, and much of the vernacular we use everyday was coined by the Bard. It's not so much about the act itself of finding the volume and area of the sphere and triangle respectively, but rather the knowing that they exist, what they are, their uses etc. That knowledge is important and valuable.

Both of those arguments apply to the learning of Irish too. Indeed rather more of vernacular in use in Ireland (which includes placenames!) comes from Irish than from Shakespeare, and I seriously doubt that any of the TV shows and movies that are loosely based on Shakespeare's work are in any way less enjoyable/exciting/engaging to people who have never studied Shakespeare than to those who got an A1 in LC English.

It's not proof of anything of the sort. It is proof that many parents send their kids to a Gaelscoil to get an advantage in Irish, or because the school might have a better reputation than other schools nearby, or because they place importance on their kids knowing the Irish language.

Of course it's proof that people who claim learning Irish is a waste of time are talking through the collective chips on their shoulders! If learning Irish was in any way a real barrier to learning anything else, pupils of Gaelscoilleanna would be falling behind pupils at other schools.

That's the inconvenient truth for those who are opposed to the teaching of Irish in schools.

Dughorm

K4t wrote: »

As long as you understand this bit, and accept that the vast majority of people would disagree with you that Irish is in any way as important as Maths or English. You must even notice that the education you believe in is in the minority here on boards. A small sample, perhaps about as small as the amount of people speaking Irish right now..

Are you reaching out for the confirmation bias that one of the posters explained in detail a few pages ago?

Dan_Solo

Bayberry wrote: »

Of course it's proof that people who claim learning Irish is a waste of time are talking through the collective chips on their shoulders! If learning Irish was in any way a real barrier to learning anything else, pupils of Gaelscoilleanna would be falling behind pupils at other schools.

That's the inconvenient truth for those who are opposed to the teaching of Irish in schools.

The truth is Gaelscoils get good grades.
The truth is also that there's no proof this is due to the pupils speaking Irish. There are other factors I listed which you are studiously ignoring.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The truth is Gaelscoils get good grades.
The truth is also that there's no proof this is due to the pupils speaking Irish. There are other factors I listed which you are studiously ignoring.

Isn't that great though - we should be celebrating that students get good grades in public schools that are taught through the means of Irish.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Isn't that great though - we should be celebrating that students get good grades in public schools that are taught through the means of Irish.

Despite the fact there is no evidence they get those grades because they speak Irish. No randomly allocated study has ever shown learning a second language was beneficial to overall student grades.

PopePalpatine

Aren't there extra marks given to those who take state examinations through Irish?

Dan_Solo

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Aren't there extra marks given to those who take state examinations through Irish?

They sure do...
https://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=im
Who knows, maybe their grades are pitiful without this artificial bias?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Despite the fact there is no evidence they get those grades because they speak Irish. No randomly allocated study has ever shown learning a second language was beneficial to overall student grades.

But why would you expect learning a second language to be beneficial to overall grades? that doesn't make sense. Learning Irish won't necessarily make one better at maths, chemistry or art, who is claiming that?

As far as I can see, the argument isn't "they get good grades because they speak Irish", rather "they get good grades and they speak Irish"... and fair play to them

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

As far as I can see, the argument isn't "they get good grades because they speak Irish", rather "they get good grades and they speak Irish"... and fair play to them

They get good grades: well done. Who knows if they needed a free leg up to match the rest of students.
And they speak Irish: so what?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They get good grades: well done. Who knows if they needed a free leg up to match the rest of students.
And they speak Irish: so what?

Exactly!

They speak Irish in a Gaelscoil or because they are native speakers. They learn English and Irish to leaving cert like the rest of us. Learning Irish doesn't disadvantage!

Un Croissant

People that say you need to speak Irish to be Irish baffle me. If anything, Irish is a separate and isolated aspect of Irish culture, rarely being combined with another aspect.

A person can enjoy 99% or Irish culture through English. The sport, literature, history, music and art are all accessible in English. Irish isn't necessary to appreciate these things. In fact, many of these things must be accessed through English.

Irish is only a pillar of irishness, not the foundation. In the same way that you're still Irish if you don't like Joyce, or the GAA or you don't want the north back, you're still Irish if you don't speak Irish.

I'm not sure the same applies for places like Germany, or France. Where a working knowledge of the language is essential to experience the country.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Exactly!

They speak Irish in a Gaelscoil or because they are native speakers. They learn English and Irish to leaving cert like the rest of us. Learning Irish doesn't disadvantage!

But they get unfair free bonus marks. How do you know it doesn't?

Aineoil

"A candidate who answers in Irish at the written examination in the various subjects as set out below may be given bonus marks in addition to the marks gained in the subject."

"may be" It's not automatic they get extra marks.

323

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The truth is Gaelscoils get good grades.
The truth is also that there's no proof this is due to the pupils speaking Irish. There are other factors I listed which you are studiously ignoring.

Agree. Honestly think its in spite of the pupils being taught through Irish. Know a couple of cases where kids immediatly did much better when taken out of Gaelscoils. Nephew had been all through national school to fourth year in secondary. He reckoned everything got so much easier and clearer, all subjects went up a grade.

Dughorm

Un Croissant wrote: »

People that say you need to speak Irish to be Irish baffle me. If anything, Irish is a separate and isolated aspect of Irish culture, rarely being combined with another aspect.

A person can enjoy 99% or Irish culture through English. The sport, literature, history, music and art are all accessible in English. Irish isn't necessary to appreciate these things. In fact, many of these things must be accessed through English.

Irish is only a pillar of irishness, not the foundation. In the same way that you're still Irish if you don't like Joyce, or the GAA or you don't want the north back, you're still Irish if you don't speak Irish.

I'm not sure the same applies for places like Germany, or France. Where a working knowledge of the language is essential to experience the country.

A lot of common sense here.

Take a country like Belgium. Two languages at loggerheads. French is a pillar in Belgian life but you're still Belgian if you only speak Flemish!

However, a respect for both languages, both communities, both identities, helps keep the nation united (just about!)

Carlos Orange

Aineoil wrote: »

"A candidate who answers in Irish at the written examination in the various subjects as set out below may be given bonus marks in addition to the marks gained in the subject."

"may be" It's not automatic they get extra marks.

What do they have to do to get them? I don't see any restrictions listed apart from the fact you can not get a grade above 100%

whisky_galore

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't agree with your statement about advocating history as a compulsory subject - history is not a national language, it is wrapped in ideology. We've had enough compulsory ideology in our schools in my opinion.

History should be interpreted in an unbiased and dispassionate way, no ideology.

It's fine to have it as an option in 2nd level imho, and that's coming from a history addict.

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote: »

Is that your opinion on English and Maths as well, which for all intents and purposes are mandatory as well?

English and Maths are not on the same level as Irish though, are they? When the state removes the obligation for students to study Irish for LC then we can have a proper discussion on the merits of all 3, but as a matter of fact; yes I do feel students should be free to choose all LC subjects, as I think this thread has proved the merits of studying different subjects can be very subjective.

How do English and Maths fit into your rounded education?

Dughorm

FunLover18 wrote: »

English and Maths are not on the same level as Irish though, are they?

Which levels are these? Who defines them?

FunLover18 wrote: »

How do English and Maths fit into your rounded education?

Very well, there is a need for compulsory Maths and English as well as Irish in my opinion. Both national languages covered, the language of science covered with plenty of choice left over for the student to specialise or to embrace a variety of subject areas.

jackofalltrades

Bayberry wrote: »

The only valid argument for not making every single National school in the country a Gaelscoil is the resource issue - we just don't have the teachers.

That and parents have a constitutional right with regards to what kind of school they wish to send their children to.

I think the success of Gaelscoils shows that there is enough interest in the language to start making it voluntary for students at some levels.
The phrase "if you love it set it free" comes to mind.

That an people who support keeping Irish mandatory come across as very authoritarian, in a world where we are trying to give people more freedom in their lives.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But they get unfair free bonus marks. How do you know it doesn't?

Those bonus marks aren't unfair by the way. They are equal opportunity bonus marks. It is open to all students to do examinations through Irish should they so choose.

Dughorm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

That an people who support keeping Irish mandatory come across as very authoritarian, in a world where we are trying to give people more freedom in their lives.

You support all subjects being made optional in this libertarian spirit I assume?

RecordStraight

Dughorm wrote: »

You support all subjects being made optional in this libertarian spirit I assume?

Probably not the useful ones, I would suggest. Maths and English should be compulsory.

Dughorm

RecordStraight wrote: »

Probably not the useful ones, I would suggest. Maths and English should be compulsory.

What distinguishes Leaving Cert English in terms of usefulness, if "usefulness" is your criteria for education?

RecordStraight

Dughorm wrote: »

What distinguishes Leaving Cert English in terms of usefulness, if "usefulness" is your criteria for education?

Being able to analyse, understand and synthesise information is critical for almost any form of higher education, not to mention day-to-day life.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Those bonus marks aren't unfair by the way. They are equal opportunity bonus marks. It is open to all students to do examinations through Irish should they so choose.

Oh jeebus. That's sounds like the "gays are as entitled to marry someone of the opposite sex as heteros are" kind of equal opportunity.
If there were bonus points for doing the LC in Chinese or Polish would that be fair? Why not bonus points for English then too?

Dughorm

RecordStraight wrote: »

Being able to analyse, understand and synthesise information is critical for almost any form of higher education, not to mention day-to-day life.

Which is done in all leaving cert subjects, including Irish.

Why does being able to analyse, understand and synthesise Shakespeare need to be mandatory above other subjects going on your criteria?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh jeebus. That's sounds like the "gays are as entitled to marry someone of the opposite sex as heteros are" kind of equal opportunity.
If there were bonus points for doing the LC in Chinese or Polish would that be fair? Why not bonus points for English then too?

I have to admit I lolled at that one.

Why not bonus points for Honours Maths? Oh yes, we have that already, unless you consider that unfair too?

RecordStraight

Dughorm wrote: »

Which is done in all leaving cert subjects, including Irish.

Not to nearly the same level as in English.

Dughorm wrote: »

Why does being able to analyse, understand and synthesise Shakespeare need to be mandatory above other subjects going on your criteria?

Leaving Cert English is not just Shakespeare, is it? And even if it were, you have to understand the text, understand the criticism of the text, understand the question you are being asked, and then construct an answer based on a synthesis of what you have studied, outlining arguments and backing them up with evidence from the text.

To suggest that this happens in 'all' other subjects is nonsense, which I suspect you already know.

Dughorm

RecordStraight wrote: »

Not to nearly the same level as in English.

Leaving Cert English is not just Shakespeare, is it? And even if it were, you have to understand the text, understand the criticism of the text, understand the question you are being asked, and then construct an answer based on a synthesis of what you have studied, outlining arguments and backing them up with evidence from the text.

To suggest that this happens in 'all' other subjects is nonsense, which I suspect you already know.

Can you define this "level" you refer to? Is it in terms of "usefulness" which you stated was your criteria?

I must admit, I have not found any practical usefulness to writing a critique of Sylvia Plath, Shakespeare or John B. Keane though I enjoyed it very much. Some of my optional subjects were much more "useful" to me. I could have studied more "useful" subjects had English not been mandatory.

But then usefulness isn't my philosophy of education.

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote: »

Which levels are these? Who defines them?

The difference is that the Department of Education states that all LC students must study at least five subjects one of which must be Irish. When this provision is removed then Irish still may be made "mandatory" by schools. There is no state requirement for students to study English and Maths at LC, therefore different levels.

Dughorm wrote: »

Very well, there is a need for compulsory Maths and English as well as Irish in my opinion. Both national languages covered, the language of science covered with plenty of choice left over for the student to specialise or to embrace a variety of subject areas.

So, should the state impose a requirement for students to study Maths and English, or should remove the requirement and allow schools to make the choice.

Dughorm

FunLover18 wrote: »

The difference is that the Department of Education states that all LC students must study at least five subjects one of which must be Irish. When this provision is removed then Irish still may be made "mandatory" by schools. There is no state requirement for students to study English and Maths at LC, therefore different levels.



So, should the state impose a requirement for students to study Maths and English, or should remove the requirement and allow schools to make the choice.

This is hair splitting in my opinion, akin to the tedious references to the constitution. For all practical purposes, there are 3 core subjects. Try find a school which doesn't enforce this.