The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I have to admit I lolled at that one.

Why not bonus points for Honours Maths? Oh yes, we have that already, unless you consider that unfair too?

Whatabout that for whataboutery!
Not fair. Next.

jackofalltrades

Dughorm wrote: »

You support all subjects being made optional in this libertarian spirit I assume?

As FunLover18 just pointed out, all other subjects bar Irish are optional.

RecordStraight

Dughorm wrote: »

Can you define this "level" you refer to? Is it in terms of "usefulness" which you stated was your criteria?

Sure. The standard of answer expected in an English LC paper is far higher than the standard expected in an Irish paper. I suspect you also know this.

A higher standard of grammar, spelling, sentence construction - all of which allow for a higher standard of argument being made (it's very hard to make a cogent argument for something when you are trying to avoid words you don't know in Irish, or tricky tenses, or sentence structures you are unsure of).

Dughorm wrote: »

I must admit, I have not found any practical usefulness to writing a critique of Sylvia Plath, Shakespeare or John B. Keane though I enjoyed it very much. Some of my optional subjects were much more "useful" to me. I could have studied more "useful" subjects had English not been mandatory.

It's probably not apparent to you, but it has helped you - for example - to hold your own in this discussion, and probably a million other things. People tend to forget that reading comprehension is a learned skill, and it can be learned to different levels. Similarly writing an argument.

Dughorm wrote: »

But then usefulness isn't my philosophy of education.

Well that's fair enough I suppose.

Bayberry

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The truth is Gaelscoils get good grades.
The truth is also that there's no proof this is due to the pupils speaking Irish. There are other factors I listed which you are studiously ignoring.

The claim is that teaching kids Irish is a waste of time that takes from useful learning. I didn't claim that kids at Gaelscoileanna get good grades because they are taught through Irish, I said that it disproves the cant that learning Irish is a waste of time. I ignored your other points because they're irrelevant to the point I was making - and you know that, which is why you threw them in, to distract from the issue.

Zen65

Bayberry wrote: »

What function does Shakespeare or poetry serve?

They develop an understanding of the power of communication through the English language, which every student will use daily until the day they die.

Shakespeare's phraseology has become so commonplace in our language we barely know we are quoting him.

And I use the maths I learned often enough . . . (but I'm an engineer)

I use the French and German I learned every year, or every other year when I travel.

I have not used Irish since the day I left school with my "A" in honours Irish.

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote: »

This is hair splitting in my opinion, akin to the tedious references to the constitution. For all practical purposes, there are 3 core subjects. Try find a school which doesn't enforce this.

How can a school force students to study Maths and English? That's a genuine question; is there a way that a school can legally make study a subject I'm not required to do? The only reason I didn't try to and get out of them (not that I would have, although I don't think they should be compulsory but I personally found them interesting) is because I didn't know that Irish was the only subject I was specifically required to do, and I'd imagine that goes for a lot of students. Schools may not be offering a choice (which is very wrong, don't misunderstand me) but the choice is and should be there however the state gives students no choice with relation to Irish. Hardly splitting hairs, two very different wrongs.

Dan_Solo

Bayberry wrote: »

The claim is that teaching kids Irish is a waste of time that takes from useful learning. I didn't claim that kids at Gaelscoileanna get good grades because they are taught through Irish, I said that it disproves the cant that learning Irish is a waste of time. I ignored your other points because they're irrelevant to the point I was making - and you know that, which is why you threw them in, to distract from the issue.

They get bonus marks so we've no idea whether they have good grades really. But you know this and choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda's narrative.

Bayberry

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They get bonus marks so we've no idea whether they have good grades really. But you know this and choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda's narrative.

Seriously? Do you think that they get some sort of random bonus? That D grade kids are somehow sneaking out with a A? Or are you trying to claim that Gaelscoil kids are pretty dumb, but there's a state conspiracy to fool their parents into thinking that they're smart by giving them a 5% bonus in their exams?

Yes, the state provides an incentive for kids who their exams through Irish - it makes up for the fact that they don't often can't get textbooks in Irish, among other things.

There's no bonus once they get into 3rd level though, so if it turned out that this bonus was leaving them seriously unprepared for wherever they ended up at 3rd level, that would be part of the public perception of Gaelscoileanna, and it's not.

Grayson

Bayberry wrote: »

Seriously? Do you think that they get some sort of random bonus? That D grade kids are somehow sneaking out with a A? Or are you trying to claim that Gaelscoil kids are pretty dumb, but there's a state conspiracy to fool their parents into thinking that they're smart by giving them a 5% bonus in their exams?

Yes, the state provides an incentive for kids who their exams through Irish - it makes up for the fact that they don't often can't get textbooks in Irish, among other things.

There's no bonus once they get into 3rd level though, so if it turned out that this bonus was leaving them seriously unprepared for wherever they ended up at 3rd level, that would be part of the public perception of Gaelscoileanna, and it's not.

The marks are still artificially inflated though. Unless you think an extra 10% is an obvious reflection of their ability.

Your point about third level is incorrect, You'd only notice a difference in performance if the points system was an accurate reflection of how difficult a course was.

Dughorm

FunLover18 wrote: »

How can a school force students to study Maths and English? That's a genuine question; is there a way that a school can legally make study a subject I'm not required to do? The only reason I didn't try to and get out of them (not that I would have, although I don't think they should be compulsory but I personally found them interesting) is because I didn't know that Irish was the only subject I was specifically required to do, and I'd imagine that goes for a lot of students. Schools may not be offering a choice (which is very wrong, don't misunderstand me) but the choice is and should be there however the state gives students no choice with relation to Irish. Hardly splitting hairs, two very different wrongs.

It would be interesting to see when did Irish become a mandatory subject in the sense you are using? Was it always the case?

Was it made mandatory to avoid the sort of legal challenge which would override school subject choice?

Do you believe you have a genuine choice not to study maths and english if you didn't want to, in any school in the country?

Dughorm

RecordStraight wrote: »

Sure. The standard of answer expected in an English LC paper is far higher than the standard expected in an Irish paper. I suspect you also know this.

A higher standard of grammar, spelling, sentence construction - all of which allow for a higher standard of argument being made (it's very hard to make a cogent argument for something when you are trying to avoid words you don't know in Irish, or tricky tenses, or sentence structures you are unsure of).

I'd agree with this. Grade inflation has certainly affected Irish as it has maths ala project maths.

Could there be an argument made that irish/maths be optional to protect the integrity of the subject instead of the "dumbing-down" process in earnest at present?

RecordStraight wrote: »

It's probably not apparent to you, but it has helped you - for example - to hold your own in this discussion, and probably a million other things. People tend to forget that reading comprehension is a learned skill, and it can be learned to different levels. Similarly writing an argument.

Lol thanks!

To repeat an argument we heard from another poster earlier, in relation to Irish, it may be beneficial but going on the logic of utility, students may have the time to pick a more useful subject requiring a superior command of reading comprehension and argument.

If I'm not mistaken, the philosophy of Bono featured on this year's leaving cert english paper... would deciphering his insights be considered a "learned skill"?

Dughorm

Zen65 wrote: »

I use the French and German I learned every year, or every other year when I travel.

I have not used Irish since the day I left school with my "A" in honours Irish.

Which is completely your personal choice and to be respected.

It is important to be aware though that you could have used your Irish had you chosen to do so.

The Dark Side

Dughorm wrote: »

Which is completely your personal choice and to be respected.

So I presume a personal choice not to want to study it in the first place would be equally respected?

HIB

Dughorm wrote: »

Exactly!

They speak Irish in a Gaelscoil or because they are native speakers. They learn English and Irish to leaving cert like the rest of us. Learning Irish doesn't disadvantage!

Not so sure about that. Maybe there is no disadvantage in gaelscoils operating in English speaking areas, but in Gaeltachts, this may not be the case.
Personally, I know of one such gaelscoil, operating in a Gaeltacht, where they had no honours English leaving cert class the year I did my leaving, and a couple of their students failed ordinary level English.

Dughorm

The Dark Side wrote: »

So I presume a personal choice not to want to study it in the first place would be equally respected?

Not when it comes to core subjects.

Would you respect a child's choice not to learn English or Maths?

Dughorm

HIB wrote: »

Not so sure about that. Maybe there is no disadvantage in gaelscoils operating in English speaking areas, but in Gaeltachts, this may not be the case.
Personally, I know of one such gaelscoil, operating in a Gaeltacht, where they had no honours English leaving cert class the year I did my leaving, and a couple of their students failed ordinary level English.

I think that's a pity - a good number of people fail ordinary level English each year from an English speaking background also.

They should get the support they deserve so that they can thrive in all core subjects.

The Dark Side

Dughorm wrote: »

Not when it comes to core subjects.

Would you respect a child's choice not to learn English or Maths?

Of course I would.

I would encourage them to study those subject though as they are very useful in life.

I wouldn't force any child to study any subject they don't want to though.

I guess my respect for personal choice outstrips your own.

HIB

Dughorm wrote: »

I think that's a pity - a good number of people fail ordinary level English each year from an English speaking background also.

They should get the support they deserve so that they can thrive in all core subjects.

It is a huge pity. As far as I know, university access is barred to those failing English in their leaving cert.
Poor achievement in English seems like a huge price to pay for fluency in a dead language.
A number of parents in that school seemed to agree. They withdrew their kids and sent them to the local 'ordinary' English speaking school, for their senior cycle years.

Dughorm

The Dark Side wrote: »

Of course I would.

I would encourage them to study those subject though as they are very useful in life.

I wouldn't force any child to study any subject they don't want to though.

I guess my respect for personal choice outstrips your own.

And I totally respect your philosophy of education.

You see, your argument isn't specific to Irish, it's about compulsory subjects in general. And that is no problem, except that's not what this discussion is about.

Dughorm

HIB wrote: »

It is a huge pity. As far as I know, university access is barred to those failing English in their leaving cert.
Poor achievement in English seems like a huge price to pay for fluency in a dead language.
A number of parents in that school seemed to agree. They withdrew their kids and sent them to the local 'ordinary' English speaking school, for their senior cycle years.

University access is barred to those failing Irish in their leaving cert also as far as I know?

Poor achievement in any national language is not a good thing.

However, I think it is accepted from the discussion we had about gaelscoileanna a few pages previous that sending a child to a Gaelscoil does not disadvantage a child in general

dr.fuzzenstein

Dughorm wrote: »

Why all the talk of religion? It's not like irish and religion are interchangeable.

I guess it's all to do with the generation that grew up in the 70's and 80's (thankfully I was in Germany), some would say they had religion, Irish (language, dancing, diddly eye music), the GAA and Fiana Fail bate into them.
Now while religion and FF have taken some knocks (i.e. people have woken up and rightfully gave them both their marching orders), there is still a chance for the music and the language, but it has a lot to do with having it forced onto people. According to some, Peig Sayers is responsible for turning millions of children irrevocably against Irish. Makes sense, it just associates Irish with misery, poverty and hardship. Not the right way to make the Irish language sexy.

As for Gaelscoils, while it may suit a lot of kids, I would be careful to assume it suits every child. Would you force your kid through gaelscoil even if his/her grades plummet because they have difficulty with the language?

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

...According to some, Peig Sayers is responsible for turning millions of children irrevocably against Irish. Makes sense, it just associates Irish with misery, poverty and hardship. Not the right way to make the Irish language sexy.

There's definitely something in that. Sayer's work is important, but not the sort of thing to present to a bunch of twelve-year-olds in order to pique their interest. You should check out Flann O'Brien's "An Beal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth) for a rather excellent send-up of this sort of thing. Here is a description of one protagonist therein:

"He possessed the very best poverty, hunger and distress also. He was generous and open-handed and he never possessed the smallest object which he did not share with the neighbours; nevertheless, I can never remember him during my time possessing the least thing, even the quantity of little potatoes needful to keep body and soul joined together. In Corkadoragha, where every human being was sunk in poverty, we always regarded him as a recipient of alms and compassion. The gentlemen from Dublin who came in motors to inspect the paupers praised him for his Gaelic poverty and stated that they never saw anyone who appeared so truly Gaelic... There was no one in Ireland comparable to O'Sanassa in the excellence of his poverty; the amount of famine which was delineated in his person."

HIB

Dughorm wrote: »

University access is barred to those failing Irish in their leaving cert also as far as I know?

Poor achievement in any national language is not a good thing.

However, I think it is accepted from the discussion we had about gaelscoileanna a few pages previous that sending a child to a Gaelscoil does not disadvantage a child in general

You need a pass in either Irish or a foreign language to matriculate.

I beleive it is common sense that the amount of exposure you have to a language has an influence on your articulacy and fluency in that language. Indeed, this is the very principle that gaelscoils are founded on.

It follows that people attending English speaking schools will, in general, attain a higher level of articulacy, and fluency in English, than those attending gaelscoils.

Dughorm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I guess it's all to do with the generation that grew up in the 70's and 80's (thankfully I was in Germany), some would say they had religion, Irish (language, dancing, diddly eye music), the GAA and Fiana Fail bate into them.
Now while religion and FF have taken some knocks (i.e. people have woken up and rightfully gave them both their marching orders), there is still a chance for the music and the language, but it has a lot to do with having it forced onto people. According to some, Peig Sayers is responsible for turning millions of children irrevocably against Irish. Makes sense, it just associates Irish with misery, poverty and hardship. Not the right way to make the Irish language sexy.

A good post which brings us back to curriculum again.

It amazes me that people leave school in Ireland without being able to order a meal in Irish - something as basic as that?

That generation which featured on the syllabus endured misery, poverty and hardship had Irish (and not much else!), but there were other movements in Irish which people perhaps could engage with more today (e.g. in UCC in the 70's).

It amazes me in Paris to see people in the Metro reading small books / dialogues as they commute to work, go shopping etc...- I would love to see an equivalent in Ireland where people could engage with Irish at their own level.

Dughorm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As for Gaelscoils, while it may suit a lot of kids, I would be careful to assume it suits every child. Would you force your kid through gaelscoil even if his/her grades plummet because they have difficulty with the language?

I'm not in favour of forcing children into gaelscoils because I believe in parental choice where it comes to the type and ethos of the school they send their child to.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I know this thread was started two weeks ago so I just wanted to know is Irish still failing or has it actually failed yet?

The Dark Side

Dughorm wrote: »

It amazes me that people leave school in Ireland without being able to order a meal in Irish - something as basic as that?

If you try to order a meal in Irish, you'll get blank stares.

Far easier to just order a meal in English.

Dughorm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I know this thread was started two weeks ago so I just wanted to know is Irish still failing or has it actually failed yet?

If the argument for Irish was failing would we be 80 pages into this discussion and counting...

HIB

jimgoose wrote: »

There's definitely something in that. Sayer's work is important, but not the sort of thing to present to a bunch of twelve-year-olds in order to pique their interest. You should check out Flann O'Brien's "An Beal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth) for a rather excellent send-up of this sort of thing. Here is a description of one protagonist therein:

"He possessed the very best poverty, hunger and distress also. He was generous and open-handed and he never possessed the smallest object which he did not share with the neighbours; nevertheless, I can never remember him during my time possessing the least thing, even the quantity of little potatoes needful to keep body and soul joined together. In Corkadoragha, where every human being was sunk in poverty, we always regarded him as a recipient of alms and compassion. The gentlemen from Dublin who came in motors to inspect the paupers praised him for his Gaelic poverty and stated that they never saw anyone who appeared so truly Gaelic... There was no one in Ireland comparable to O'Sanassa in the excellence of his poverty; the amount of famine which was delineated in his person."

Excellence of his poverty....brilliant.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Poor achievement in any national language is not a good thing.

It is if you are forced to do it and it is utterly useless to you and it could be the deciding factor for no possible logical reason on whether you get into university or not. You may as well pick trampolining or flower arranging as any random shyte that would indicate how clever students are.
With the added bonus that at least there's a chance you'll use those skills later in life...

Dughorm

The Dark Side wrote: »

If you try to order a meal in Irish, you'll get blank stares.

But of course if no one ever learns in school how to order a meal!

The Dark Side wrote: »

Far easier to just order a meal in English.

Which is a circular argument... It is easier to speak in your native language therefore it is easier to do so...

Dan_Solo

Bayberry wrote: »

Seriously? Do you think that they get some sort of random bonus?

The subject in which proficiency gives them a bonus appears to have been chosen at random. The bonus itself is precisely detailed in the document I already linked to.

Bayberry wrote: »

That D grade kids are somehow sneaking out with a A? Or are you trying to claim that Gaelscoil kids are pretty dumb, but there's a state conspiracy to fool their parents into thinking that they're smart by giving them a 5% bonus in their exams?

I never claimed any of those things, but they are a useful strawman arguments if you want to deflect from the facts of this artificial grade inflation I guess. Convenient guff hyperbole if you, for example, want to pretend that a 10% bonus makes no difference at all.

Bayberry wrote: »

Yes, the state provides an incentive for kids who their exams through Irish - it makes up for the fact that they don't often can't get textbooks in Irish, among other things.

So you're telling me they are proficient enough in English to use an English textbook and be able to subsequently answer questions on the same subject in Irish? Or is their Irish not good enough to be able to express ideas they received in a different language? How different is Irish geometry from English geometry anyway?

Bayberry wrote: »

There's no bonus once they get into 3rd level though, so if it turned out that this bonus was leaving them seriously unprepared for wherever they ended up at 3rd level, that would be part of the public perception of Gaelscoileanna, and it's not.

"part of the public perception"? That's laughable. So because (you claim) the public don't perceive something as true or false that is direct evidence of it being true or false? Seriously?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Which is a circular argument... It is easier to speak in your native language therefore it is easier to do so...

Which is English for over 99% of Ireland. Why would anybody expect, need or even want to order food in Irish?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which is English for over 99% of Ireland. Why would anybody expect, need or even want to order food in Irish?

If you saw crúbíns on the menu you might want to know what it is

HIB

Dughorm wrote: »

But of course if no one ever learns in school how to order a meal!



Which is a circular argument... It is easier to speak in your native language therefore it is easier to do so...

In fairness, I think the point being made is that if you speak in Irish to a waitress/waiter,they will most likely not understand you.
It's basic manners to try to speak to people in a language they understand. If you're in France use French. If you're in Ireland, use English.

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

There's definitely something in that. Sayer's work is important, but not the sort of thing to present to a bunch of twelve-year-olds in order to pique their interest. You should check out Flann O'Brien's "An Beal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth) for a rather excellent send-up of this sort of thing. Here is a description of one protagonist therein:

I have already quoted from it!

Dughorm

HIB wrote: »

In fairness, I think the point being made is that if you speak in Irish to a waitress/waiter,they will most likely not understand you.
It's basic manners to try to speak to people in a language they understand. If you're in France use French. If you're in Ireland, use English.

Is it possible we are all too polite to speak Irish?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

If you saw crúbíns on the menu you might want to know what it is

Dear God, no you wouldn't. This is a case for knowing less Irish if anything...

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Is it possible we are all too polite to speak Irish?

To a likely Polish waitress? Nope.

HIB

Dughorm wrote: »

Is it possible we are all too polite to speak Irish?

Maybe
One of my local towns is only a few miles from a genuine Gaeltacht and loads of Irish speakers frequent the town. They use English when they're in town though, presumably because its easier and also more polite. I used to work in a shop where we had one guy who used to come in and insist on speaking Irish. He'd come up to the counter and ask for whatever he wanted in Irish. Invariably you couldnt understand him, would ask him to speak english and then he'd make a big song and dance about repeating what he said slowly and loudly. The whole queue would then have to wait while we went and got the owner who spoke Irish. Needless to say, everyone thought he was an arrogant, ignorant, a**hole!

dlouth15

Bayberry wrote: »

What function does Shakespeare or poetry serve? For that matter, what function does any mathemathics beyond basic arithmetic serve for 90% of people? When was the last time that you needed to know the volume of a sphere or the area of a trangle?

At the most basic level, you need to be able to read and write to be able to get by in daily life in Ireland.

Likewise you need to be able to add and subtract, multiply and divide to get by in Ireland.

This is the basic educational argument for teaching these subjects. If you can't do those you are severely disadvantaged.

But you can in fact completely drop Irish from both primary and secondary school and suffer no ill-effects except artificial ones created by the state.

I think you will agree with me that everyone needs these basics. As you move beyond these extremely basic skills it is true that not everyone will need every skill that is taught. For example if you become an accountant or financial adviser you will need to know about mathematics taught at secondary level. Likewise electrician, architect and any number of other professions. A good standard of written English will generally help in whatever you choose to do both professionally and outside of work.

You personally may not need to know what the area of a triangle is but others do and moreover you depend on them knowing it. The school system does not know who is going to need this knowledge and who is not, so they have to teach everyone.

These are basic educational arguments for the need for certain subjects in the educational system. You might disagree with certain aspects of them but at least the arguments are there.

What is lacking is the equivalent arguments for Irish? Why exactly is it being taught? If it is vital, as Dughorm states, how is it that unlike maths and English, you can more or less get by perfectly well without it? A foreigner coming to the country needs English because that is the language that is spoken here. He may choose to learn Irish but he will know that it is not necessary for survival.

PopePalpatine

Dughorm wrote: »

Those bonus marks aren't unfair by the way. They are equal opportunity bonus marks. It is open to all students to do examinations through Irish should they so choose.

Why am I being reminded of that bullshit "everyone has the equal opportunity to marry someone of the other gender" argument that was thrown around during the marriage equality debate?

PopePalpatine

Dughorm wrote: »

If you saw crúbíns on the menu you might want to know what it is

Nah, I'd just ask for the English menu. If they didn't have one I'd leave for somewhere else.

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I have already quoted from it!

Good maun, hi. It's a rather rare example of satire in Proper Literature(TM) that'll make you laugh out loud.

dlouth15

Dughorm wrote: »

your interpretation of my argument makes it appear that I think irish should be part of the world's education and that people are somehow uneducated or not properly educated without it.... not at all.

A rounded irish education includes education in the national languages. that's all it's not like I'm judging any person's command of the language

"A rounded irish education includes education in the national languages"

But all you can do is repeat that. Can you come up with any reasons why? Not facetious ones ideally.

dr.fuzzenstein

HIB wrote: »

Maybe
One of my local towns is only a few miles from a genuine Gaeltacht and loads of Irish speakers frequent the town. They use English when they're in town though, presumably because its easier and also more polite. I used to work in a shop where we had one guy who used to come in and insist on speaking Irish. He'd come up to the counter and ask for whatever he wanted in Irish. Invariably you couldnt understand him, would ask him to speak english and then he'd make a big song and dance about repeating what he said slowly and loudly. The whole queue would then have to wait while we went and got the owner who spoke Irish. Needless to say, everyone thought he was an arrogant, ignorant, a**hole!

Pity I didn't work in that shop, I would have answered in German. :pac:

jimgoose

Bayberry wrote: »

...When was the last time that you needed to know the volume of a sphere or the area of a trangle?....

Last week. Every time I pick up my tools I find I need to know something like that, be it calculating the surface area of a cone (-ish) or bisecting an angle. I guess I'm just lucky!

RecordStraight

Bayberry wrote: »

What function does Shakespeare or poetry serve? For that matter, what function does any mathemathics beyond basic arithmetic serve for 90% of people? When was the last time that you needed to know the volume of a sphere or the area of a trangle?

Presumably then mathematics education should stop at the age of 8 or 9, as anything beyond that is not really useful?

Reiver

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29171457

Seems to agree with some of the points made in the thread.

Grayson

RecordStraight wrote: »

Presumably then mathematics education should stop at the age of 8 or 9, as anything beyond that is not really useful?

Only if you don't want anyone to do engineering, programming or science later in life. Even managers and business people need it.

Irish isn't needed.

In the UK maths is optional after a certain stage and they want to change that because they've found that they have so many adults that are mathematically illiterate.

Besides the most obvious benefits maths teaches logical problem solving. It's not all addition and subtraction.