The Irish language is failing.

dlouth15

Reiver wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29171457

Seems to agree with some of the points made in the thread.

Good article.

Quote:

So what is the secret to the language's revival?
Every senior figure in teaching I spoke to said the same: Manx is not forced on students.

People who want to learn the language come to it organically and it is not imposed on those who have no interest in it.

Although they don't mention it out of politeness, they have obviously learned something from the Irish experience - how not to do it.

jimgoose

Reiver wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29171457

Seems to agree with some of the points made in the thread.

I'm not surprised. Have you seen some of the placenames they have on the Isle of Man? The likes of Creg-ny-baa and Cronk-y-Voddy, sure where would you get it!

astrofool

Dughorm wrote: »

If you saw crúbíns on the menu you might want to know what it is

What about Charcuterie, Filet Mignon, Coq au Vin or a risotto?

boardise

In the unlikely event I ever find myself ordering a meal in Gaelic - how would I express the following triad of triads in the ancestral tongue ?

Prawn cocktail ; Breaded Ground Veal Cutlet; Rhubarb Crumble

Pickled Cucumbers with Beetroot Compote; Chargrilled Beefburger with Spicy Potato Wedges : Raspberry Ripple
Ice-cream

Terrine Ham Hock with Fig Chutney on Lightly Toasted Bun; Boned Aromatic Peking Duck; Sticky Toffee Pudding with Warm Butterscotch Sauce.

I'll give you a clue about the tea and coffee ....TEA =TAE...COFFEE =CAIFE (don't forget ..cup= cupán)

Fighting Irish

Good

AnLonDubh

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Nah, I'd just ask for the English menu. If they didn't have one I'd leave for somewhere else.

Really, it's "crubeen" in English, pretty much the same. I wouldn't leave a restaurant due to one similar word being present in another language on the menu.

AnLonDubh

Dughorm wrote: »

It amazes me that people leave school in Ireland without being able to order a meal in Irish - something as basic as that

Well considering there is no need to, is it really a surprise?

AnLonDubh

boardise wrote: »

In the unlikely event I ever find myself ordering a meal in Gaelic - how would I express the following triad of triads in the ancestral tongue ?

Prawn cocktail ; Breaded Ground Veal Cutlet; Rhubarb Crumble

Pickled Cucumbers with Beetroot Compote; Chargrilled Beefburger with Spicy Potato Wedges : Raspberry Ripple
Ice-cream

Terrine Ham Hock with Fig Chutney on Lightly Toasted Bun; Boned Aromatic Peking Duck; Sticky Toffee Pudding with Warm Butterscotch Sauce.

I'll give you a clue about the tea and coffee ....TEA =TAE...COFFEE =CAIFE (don't forget ..cup= cupán)

All of that can be translated, but Im not sure what it would add. Tea and coffee sound similar in every European language. People often think (Ive heard a similar comment being made for Italian and French) that if a word sounds similar in another language it must be "fake" and taken from English. Why would the words sound different if they were recently taken from two other languages?

HIB

boardise wrote: »

In the unlikely event I ever find myself ordering a meal in Gaelic - how would I express the following triad of triads in the ancestral tongue ?

Prawn cocktail ; Breaded Ground Veal Cutlet; Rhubarb Crumble

Pickled Cucumbers with Beetroot Compote; Chargrilled Beefburger with Spicy Potato Wedges : Raspberry Ripple
Ice-cream

Terrine Ham Hock with Fig Chutney on Lightly Toasted Bun; Boned Aromatic Peking Duck; Sticky Toffee Pudding with Warm Butterscotch Sauce.

I'll give you a clue about the tea and coffee ....TEA =TAE...COFFEE =CAIFE (don't forget ..cup= cupán)

Ah shur what's wrong with a bit of plain old 'bagún agus cabáiste'. Tis far from aromatic Peking duck you were reared!

Bayberry

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They get bonus marks so we've no idea whether they have good grades really.

Bayberry wrote: »

Seriously? Do you think that they get some sort of random bonus? That D grade kids are somehow sneaking out with a A? Or are you trying to claim that Gaelscoil kids are pretty dumb, but there's a state conspiracy to fool their parents into thinking that they're smart by giving them a 5% bonus in their exams?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The bonus itself is precisely detailed in the document I already linked to.
I never claimed any of those things, but they are a useful strawman arguments if you want to deflect from the facts of this artificial grade inflation I guess. Convenient guff hyperbole if you, for example, want to pretend that a 10% bonus makes no difference at all.

Whatever. First you claim that "we've no idea whether they have good grades really", and then that "bonus itself is precisely detailed in the document I already linked to". It's obviously a waste of time trying to discuss this with you if you can't keep your story straight.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The subject in which proficiency gives them a bonus appears to have been chosen at random.

That just speaks for itself. If you truely believe that, then you're delusional, if you don't, then you're dishonest. Either way, you win - nobody can ever beat you at this argument.

Dan_Solo

Bayberry wrote: »

Whatever. First you claim that "we've no idea whether they have good grades really", and then that "bonus itself is precisely detailed in the document I already linked to". It's obviously a waste of time trying to discuss this with you if you can't keep your story straight.


That just speaks for itself. If you truely believe that, then you're delusional, if you don't, then you're dishonest. Either way, you win - nobody can ever beat you at this argument.

None of this is actually a refutation. It's all "I don't like you or your argument".
Which tells its own story really doesn't it.

boardise

The key point that so many miss -it must be wilfully because nobody could really be that stupid-is that, outside the academic realm there is no need for Gaelic in the contemporary world.
The idea of ordering a meal in Gaelic is an example of simple-minded fantasising that I played along with to make the point that hardly needs spelling out -that Gaelic can't cope with the demands of life without utter waste of time and labour.
No Gaelic speakers, however allegedly 'fluent', would have these culinary vocabulary items to hand in their lexicon. Why would anyone go to the trouble of cobbling together translations that would represent words and phrases never used by a living soul before and which would not be understood by anyone perusing a menu ?
Same holds true across whole swathes of modern life.

recipio

Compulsory Irish for the Inter/Leaving cert was introduced in 1934. It is the perfect metaphor for Government coercion, an attitude ingrained in the top echelon of the civil service ever since. It is a pointless , stupid and unfair policy but until politicians and the policy makers cease to regard it as their own rite of passage I fear little will be done.

dr.fuzzenstein

astrofool wrote: »

What about Charcuterie, Filet Mignon, Coq au Vin or a risotto?

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a snackbox

PopePalpatine

AnLonDubh wrote: »

Really, it's "crubeen" in English, pretty much the same. I wouldn't leave a restaurant due to one similar word being present in another language on the menu.

Honestly, I've never heard of a "crubeen" before this thread. Having looked it up I feel queasy.

Dughorm

dlouth15 wrote: »

At the most basic level, you need to be able to read and write to be able to get by in daily life in Ireland.

Likewise you need to be able to add and subtract, multiply and divide to get by in Ireland.

This is the basic educational argument for teaching these subjects. If you can't do those you are severely disadvantaged.

But you can in fact completely drop Irish from both primary and secondary school and suffer no ill-effects except artificial ones created by the state.

...

What is lacking is the equivalent arguments for Irish? Why exactly is it being taught? If it is vital, as Dughorm states, how is it that unlike maths and English, you can more or less get by perfectly well without it? A foreigner coming to the country needs English because that is the language that is spoken here. He may choose to learn Irish but he will know that it is not necessary for survival.

Since when did "it's necessary for survival" become the criteria with regards to education? What happened to exploration, creativity, expression, culture, scientific knowledge, philosophy etc...?

If that was our philosophy of education, where are the courses in cooking, nutrition, hygiene, personal finance, car maintenance, DIY etc... ?

Dughorm

dlouth15 wrote: »

"A rounded irish education includes education in the national languages"

But all you can do is repeat that. Can you come up with any reasons why? Not facetious ones ideally.

I think that's reason enough - unless you think Irish should not be a national language?

The Corinthian

astrofool wrote: »

What about Charcuterie, Filet Mignon, Coq au Vin or a risotto?

I don't want to point out the obvious but none of those are English terms - so expecting an Irish equivalent is a little unfair.

Truth is the idea that food might be a bit more than just fuel or soakage pretty much ends at Calais.

Dughorm

boardise wrote: »

The key point that so many miss -it must be wilfully because nobody could really be that stupid-is that, outside the academic realm there is no need for Gaelic in the contemporary world.
The idea of ordering a meal in Gaelic is an example of simple-minded fantasising that I played along with to make the point that hardly needs spelling out -that Gaelic can't cope with the demands of life without utter waste of time and labour.
No Gaelic speakers, however allegedly 'fluent', would have these culinary vocabulary items to hand in their lexicon. Why would anyone go to the trouble of cobbling together translations that would represent words and phrases never used by a living soul before and which would not be understood by anyone perusing a menu ?
Same holds true across whole swathes of modern life.

The argument that there is no need for Irish is a personal one for you but not for all Irish people. Hence why there are multiple national languages. I said at the outset that the reason why the current educational policies are in place is because of nostalgia not because of utility.

Someone mentioned that out of politeness they wouldn't speak Irish to a store attendant outside of the Gaeltacht for fear that they wouldn't understand them. Would that respect be reciprocated in a Gaeltacht area?

323

Dughorm wrote: »

Which is completely your personal choice and to be respected.

It is important to be aware though that you could have used your Irish had you chosen to do so.

Aww come on. Can admire your conviction but, to speak to who?

I still can speak it, albeit a bit rusty as haven't in many years. I live right next to the galtacht and probably would respond if someone spoke to me in Irish but I've only heard it a very few times in the last 10 years.

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I know this thread was started two weeks ago so I just wanted to know is Irish still failing or has it actually failed yet?

It actually failed decades ago.

For decades Irish has been taught at school like a dead language, I also did Latin at school, honestly think it was probably more useful.

The only reason two thirds of the galtacht area I grew up in (nearly 30 years ago) pretended to speak it was for some potential gain, deontas (for the new windows etc.), the double honour for the county council grant for college, parents pushing kids for a civil service job or the Uderas grant for some business or other.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

The argument that there is no need for Irish is a personal one for you but not for all Irish people. Hence why there are multiple national languages.

Well, no. The fact we have constitutional preference and compulsory teaching tells us absolutely nothing about what the Irish people want or need.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well, no. The fact we have constitutional preference and compulsory teaching tells us absolutely nothing about what the Irish people want or need.

Do you not believe native Irish speakers exist? Are the gaeltacht areas a sham in your view?

We already heard about people failing pass English in the leaving cert in this thread because they were native Irish speakers.

The people in Gaeltacht areas are plenty vocal about what they want and need - have you not heard them?

Dughorm

323 wrote: »

Aww come on. Can admire your conviction but, to speak to who?

I still can speak it, albeit a bit rusty as haven't in many years. I live right next to the galtacht and probably would respond if someone spoke to me in Irish but I've only heard it a very few times in the last 10 years.

Seriously, you live next to a gaeltacht and there's no one to speak Irish to??!

Here's a list of bookclubs in Irish - are any of them near you?

http://www.clubleabhar.com/Eolas.aspx?kd=Clubs&Lang=en

And here's a list of Ciorcal Gaeilge conversation groups

https://cnag.ie/en/events/is-leor-beirt-conversation-circles.html

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

The people in Gaeltacht areas are plenty vocal about what they want and need - have you not heard them?

I can't say I've ever heard them asking for anything other than free money to be honest. If Irish was canned and they still got their cheque they wouldn't bat an eyelid.
Now, why should 77,000 people be holding the Irish constitution and education system to ransom might you tell us?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Seriously, you live next to a gaeltacht and there's no one to speak Irish to??!

Here's a list of bookclubs in Irish - are any of them near you?

http://www.clubleabhar.com/Eolas.aspx?kd=Clubs&Lang=en

And here's a list of Ciorcal Gaeilge conversation groups

https://cnag.ie/en/events/is-leor-beirt-conversation-circles.html

The fact that you have to go looking for anybody who speaks Irish by these means tells you everything you need to know about how popular it is.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I can't say I've ever heard them asking for anything other than free money to be honest. If Irish was canned and they still got their cheque they wouldn't bat an eyelid.
Now, why should 77,000 people be holding the Irish constitution and education system to ransom might you tell us?

Then I suggest you find out some more...

This isn't about ransom, it's about respect.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Then I suggest you find out some more...

This isn't about ransom, it's about respect.

It's about 1% of the population respecting the other 99%'s wish not to speak Irish? Oh wait...

Grayson

323 wrote: »

The only reason two thirds of the galtacht area I grew up in (nearly 30 years ago) pretended to speak it was for some potential gain, deontas (for the new windows etc.), the double honour for the county council grant for college, parents pushing kids for a civil service job or the Uderas grant for some business or other.

I'd honestly never heard of that until this thread. I've tried googling it but there's feck all online about it.

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote:

Do you believe you have a genuine choice not to study maths and english if you didn't want to, in any school in the country?

Yes, unless you can actually prove me wrong. People are allowed not partake in religion due to beliefs, surely I would be allowed not partake in maths or English when I am under no obligation to do so. The fact is that Irish is the ONLY subject required by the state at LC level, I'm at a loss therefore as to how schools can make students do English and maths, feel free to enlighten me.

Dughorm wrote:

But of course if no one ever learns in school how to order a meal!

People are spending 13+ years studying Irish, you'd think such basic Irish would be covered. But of course if people aren't interested it doesn't matter What you teach them or for how long as the current state of the language proves.

Dughorm wrote:

The argument that there is no need for Irish is a personal one for you but not for all Irish people. Hence why there are multiple national languages. I said at the outset that the reason why the current educational policies are in place is because of nostalgia not because of utility.

And the nostalgia argument isn't a personal one that applies to only handful of Irish people?

briany

The argument that Irish should be thought in schools as a compulsory subject because it is one of the national languages doesn't really hold water. Paper won't refuse ink, as the saying goes.

Dughorm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Yes, unless you can actually prove me wrong. People are allowed not partake in religion due to beliefs, surely I would be allowed not partake in maths or English when I am under no obligation to do so. The fact is that Irish is the ONLY subject required by the state at LC level, I'm at a loss therefore as to how schools can make students do English and maths, feel free to enlighten me.

Schools do have mandatory subjects as far as I know. Ask your nearest one and ask them what their mandatory subjects are.

FunLover18 wrote: »

People are spending 13+ years studying Irish, you'd think such basic Irish would be covered. But of course if people aren't interested it doesn't matter What you teach them or for how long as the current state of the language proves.

And that's a pity. I don't think the syllabus is tuned in that way to be honest. It could do with a radical overhaul.

FunLover18 wrote: »

And the nostalgia argument isn't a personal one that applies to only handful of Irish people?

And yet that is the reason why Irish is being taught the way it is and failing to get a love for the language across in my opinion.

Dughorm

briany wrote: »

The argument that Irish should be thought in schools as a compulsory subject because it is one of the national languages doesn't really hold water. Paper won't refuse ink, as the saying goes.

We'll have to agree on to disagree on that one, for the record I also believe that English should be a compulsory subject as it is a national language. By learning both languages to a relatively advanced level the student has a more rounded education in my opinion.

astrofool

The Corinthian wrote: »

I don't want to point out the obvious but none of those are English terms - so expecting an Irish equivalent is a little unfair.

Truth is the idea that food might be a bit more than just fuel or soakage pretty much ends at Calais.

I think you missed the point in me exclusively picking food items which are taken in their original language....

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote:

Schools do have mandatory subjects as far as I know. Ask your nearest one and ask them what their mandatory subjects are.

But it's not about the schools mandatory subjects. It's about what the state's mandatory subjects are, and it's Irish. Therefore, they're not comparable unless you can prove to me that maths and English ARE just as mandatory even if the department of education doesn't say so on their website.

Dughorm wrote:

And yet that is the reason why Irish is being taught the way it is and failing to get a love for the language across in my opinion.

But why is the minority's personal argument of nostalgia more valid than the majority's personal argument of usefulness?

recipio

Compulsory German would serve us much better.

Dughorm

FunLover18 wrote: »

But it's not about the schools mandatory subjects. It's about what the state's mandatory subjects are, and it's Irish. Therefore, they're not comparable unless you can prove to me that maths and English ARE just as mandatory even if the department of education doesn't say so on their website.

But it's all about the schools mandatory subjects because the school doesn't operate in a vacuum and the leaving cert is done by most students in the school context.

It isn't mandatory by the state for people to get their children baptised to go to primary school and yet that is the practical reality for very many

FunLover18 wrote: »

But why is the minority's personal argument of nostalgia more valid than the majority's personal argument of usefulness?

That's a political question - why does no political party have this as their party policy towards Irish? Perhaps its not as much of a minority position as you think?

Aineoil

Grayson wrote: »

I'd honestly never heard of that until this thread. I've tried googling it but there's feck all online about it.

A "deontas" was a grant given to people living in Gaeltacht areas for various

things like building a house for instance. The "deontas" was a big thing in the 1970's.

I am not sure but I don't think it exists anymore. But I stand to be corrected.

I still think there are grants for setting up businesses in Gaeltacht areas. You'll

get more hits on google if you type in "deontaisí".

deontas = grant

deontaisí = grants

I'm not being a smart arse (just answering your question) but if you want to find out more, google the plural word.:D

AnLonDubh

boardise wrote: »

The idea of ordering a meal in Gaelic is an example of simple-minded fantasising that I played along with to make the point that hardly needs spelling out -that Gaelic can't cope with the demands of life without utter waste of time and labour.

This is obvious though surely and doesn't need a silly "game" to spell out. Most of the items on your list do have a translation, there are native terms for them, in so far as there are in most smaller (<8m native speakers) European languages, i.e. "Peking", "aromatic" and "duck" all have cognates, but "Aromatic Peking Duck" does not without an artificial genitive construction, as is the case even in Finnish for food items like this.

Rather than focus on the words themselves and "how you would say them" (as Finnish and other small languages would fail your test), it's better to say there is no context for them, i.e. the terms are meaningless because a scenario in which to use them does not exist (which is what really distinguishes Irish and a healthy language like Finnish).

boardise

The point about food names that derive from French is that the translation into English has already been done and done in a natural process i.e. speaker to speaker, community to community, over many centuries. It would silly to duplicate that process. Not only that -it would be an artificial exercise done by a non-native speaker to non-native speakers via a dictionary.
No native speakers I've ever met -and I've met quite a few since I'm married to one-would try to make a play of ordering any kind of elaborate meal in Gaelic because they couldn't anyway and they know it wouldn't work.
The best you'd get would be a jokey bilingual melange with most of the nouns in English and the connecting skeleton in Gaelic.

In cases like this considerations of 'national language' are irrelevant ...people want something done and they use the best communication tool they have to do it. Perfectly normal and rational behaviour.
The main point about a national language I always thought was that there was a significant national population who spoke it natively. I seek in vain for such a Gaelic nation.

Aineoil

I am just waiting for the prátaí versus fataí debate.

Bheadh na fataí nite, bruite, agus ite ag an gConnachtach sula mbeidís ráite ag an Muimhneach.

The potatoes will be washed, boiled and eaten by people from Connacht before the people of Munster have said the word.

It's so true!

Aineoil

boardise wrote: »

T since I'm married to one

Are you married to someone from the Gaeltacht?

Dughorm

boardise wrote: »

The point about food names that derive from French is that the translation into English has already been done and done in a natural process i.e. speaker to speaker, community to community, over many centuries. It would silly to duplicate that process. Not only that -it would be an artificial exercise done by a non-native speaker to non-native speakers via a dictionary.
No native speakers I've ever met -and I've met quite a few since I'm married to one-would try to make a play of ordering any kind of elaborate meal in Gaelic because they couldn't anyway and they know it wouldn't work.
The best you'd get would be a jokey bilingual melange with most of the nouns in English and the connecting skeleton in Gaelic.

In cases like this considerations of 'national language' are irrelevant ...people want something done and they use the best communication tool they have to do it. Perfectly normal and rational behaviour.
The main point about a national language I always thought was that there was a significant national population who spoke it natively. I seek in vain for such a Gaelic nation.

I think you are hitting on an interesting point indirectly here.

You started by creating an artificial situation, unless there are exotic menus in restaurants in Gaeltacht areas that I'm not aware of!

But indirectly make a good point about the pointlessness of concocting language and translations in contexts where it hasn't "lived" - another good example is all the technical translation done for EU treaties etc... the legalese vocabulary of Irish which is practically incomprehensible to all and most certainly would have been to native speakers decades ago.

It is up to our time to create a living context for the language - and indeed it has. Except the context that has been decided upon is a sterile one dedicated to administrative nonsense. How sad!

AnLonDubh

boardise wrote: »

No native speakers I've ever met -and I've met quite a few since I'm married to one-would try to make a play of ordering any kind of elaborate meal in Gaelic because they couldn't anyway and they know it wouldn't work.
The best you'd get would be a jokey bilingual melange with most of the nouns in English and the connecting skeleton in Gaelic.

Again, although I agree with your point, something doesn't ring true with me about this. Wouldn't the problem more be that the speakers would need to chain genitives rather than the nouns being in English. Whenever I've seen Irish's limitations show up for native speakers it's always that they have to say "The aromatic duck of Peking" or something like that, with it sounding like a false phrase, not that they have to switch to English nouns, I find it hard to imagine they'd need to switch to English for most of the individual nouns on a menu.

Aineoil

Irish speakers use loan words from all languages, most languages use loan words.

In Connemara they are never on their rothar. They are on their bicycle.

Chuaigh mé ann ar mo bhicycle.

Not a NSA agent

As long as I can speak English better than Irish I will use English, if I'm not going to use the language once I finish my LC I am only going to learn enough to pass my LC.

The focus should be changing how it is taught in primary school so that children going into secondary school can hold a basic conversation in language. Maybe then we wont spend a class translating a poem line by line into English so we can understand and answer questions with answers we learnt off.

boardise

Yes Aineoil- I am indeed married to a native speaker . I have also acquired by dint of diligent academic endeavour a knowledge of all the literary and linguistic strata of Gaelic from Old Irish down. I'm actually steeped in Gaelic Culture -having won All-Ireland Fleadh and Oireachtas prizes in singing and instrumental disciplines .I've been around long enough to have met Seán O Riordáin ,Seán O Riada, Máirtín O Cadhain and Peig Sayers' son Maidhc File.
In 1964 there was a national campaign called Let The Language Live which involved people going around door-to-door gathering signatures for a petition to the government to redouble their efforts to do the impossible and pull off the miracle of Gaelic Revival.
As a callow youth who had not yet shaken off the stifling mental strait-jacket of a Christian Brothers education -I braved many a suburban canine on this campaign. Enlightenment dawned formeat the end of the 1960s and I managed to extricate myself from this particular form of madness. My personal experience and my training in Linguistics have convinced me of the futility of the Gaelic Revival at all levels. It would require an extended essay to tabulate the hypocrisies ,contradictions and lies of the Gaelic Revival lobby.
Incidentally, you made an interesting point a few pages ago when you mentioned Irish Studies. In 1973 the then Minister of Education
-Richard Burke-floated the idea of courses in schools which would deal with Irish civilisation in general and would have a reduced Gaelic component. I'm hazy on the details now .I think it was intended to run as an alternative to the regular Gaelic course and to serve those with less capacity or inclination to take on the more demanding language-heavy course. It seemed to contain the germ of a good idea roughly akin to courses in Classical Studies which addressed issues in Greek and Roman civilisation but with no necessity to take on the burden of learning Latin. I don't know exactly why but there did not seem to be any political will to establish Irish Studies in the curriculum -although it enjoyed some success at 3rd level. It gradually fizzled out but it might be worth looking at it again.

Letree

Let it die

Grayson

Aineoil wrote: »

A "deontas" was a grant given to people living in Gaeltacht areas for various

things like building a house for instance. The "deontas" was a big thing in the 1970's.

I am not sure but I don't think it exists anymore. But I stand to be corrected.

I still think there are grants for setting up businesses in Gaeltacht areas. You'll

get more hits on google if you type in "deontaisí".

deontas = grant

deontaisí = grants

I'm not being a smart arse (just answering your question) but if you want to find out more, google the plural word.:D

Thanks for the help

I know there are grants to set up businesses in the west but they're more about getting businesses into a area that's facing depopulation issues. Not really about Irish.

BTW, I googled the plural and the first two pages were Irish results

Dughorm

I think this has been a very interesting thread. its been fascinating to read the stories and insights everyone has provided whether they are for reform, continuity or even abolition of irish and its learning.

It goes to show that the language debate is also a debate about many other things; our educational philosophy, identity, irish history, culture and even irish cuisine :-)

Threads like this bring out the best of boards imo, cheers! (Sláinte :-) )

Grayson

boardise wrote: »

Incidentally, you made an interesting point a few pages ago when you mentioned Irish Studies. In 1973 the then Minister of Education
-Richard Burke-floated the idea of courses in schools which would deal with Irish civilisation in general and would have a reduced Gaelic component. I'm hazy on the details now .I think it was intended to run as an alternative to the regular Gaelic course and to serve those with less capacity or inclination to take on the more demanding language-heavy course. It seemed to contain the germ of a good idea roughly akin to courses in Classical Studies which addressed issues in Greek and Roman civilisation but with no necessity to take on the burden of learning Latin. I don't know exactly why but there did not seem to be any political will to establish Irish Studies in the curriculum -although it enjoyed some success at 3rd level. It gradually fizzled out but it might be worth looking at it again.

That wouldn't be a bad idea. get rid of compulsory Irish for leaving. Introduce an Irish culture course.
At the same time change the primary school course so it's heavily focused on conversing. And add an Irish culture component to the junior cert as a lead up to it.
Irish would still be available for the leaving cert. It'd be more heavilly focussed on literature.