The Irish language is failing.

Deranged96

Zen65 wrote: »

So my thoughts are . . let it die, and teach it as an optional course in much the same way as we teach Latin.

Can we maybe not let it die, and still teach it as an optional course?

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

Can we maybe not let it die, and still teach it as an optional course?

What makes you think it won't die anyway if it's optional?
At least now they can lie about the number of "Irish speakers" in the country to the EU and get some cash.

Zen65

Deranged96 wrote: »

Can we maybe not let it die, and still teach it as an optional course?

I'm not suggesting we kill it, but I am suggesting we stop wasting so much resources in trying to keep it alive. It has become the ultimate Monty Python parrot, with so many people denying that it is dead, and pumping money to try artificially preserve it.

Latin is dead, everyone knows that, and it's still a reasonably popular LC course.

Paramite Pie

I bought a graphic novel in Irish but I haven't read through it yet. I just liked the fact that it exists.:P

However, I've a long way to go before I'm able to read it coherently. It might be a fun way to re-learn.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What makes you think it won't die anyway if it's optional?
At least now they can lie about the number of "Irish speakers" in the country to the EU and get some cash.

As long as the Gaeltachí don't go terminal altogether, optional Irish will not kill the language. Besides, if everyone abandoned it in the Gaeltachtí, and it was compulsory in schools, it would still be a dead language going by the linguistic definition

Zen65 wrote: »

I'm not suggesting we kill it, but I am suggesting we stop wasting so much resources in trying to keep it alive. It has become the ultimate Monty Python parrot, with so many people denying that it is dead, and pumping money to try artificially preserve it.

Latin is dead, everyone knows that, and it's still a reasonably popular LC course.

I'm in 6th year and know nobody, nor have heard of anybody, doing Latin.
How much money is being pumped into it? Not a lot I would argue. At least the translations employ people.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

At least the translations employ people.

Pardon? It'd be a far better use of resources to pay people to make free buns and cakes TBH. At least you can do something with a cake.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Pardon? It'd be a far better use of resources to pay people to make free buns and cakes TBH. At least you can do something with a cake.

Pardon? Ah yes, pump money into raising the levels of obesity instead of supporting the arts and heritage of Ireland, seems in tune with the way of things at the moment.

I was simply drawing attention to the bemoaning about money going into Irish, it can't be that much at all, and it employs people.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

Pardon? Ah yes, pump money into raising the levels of obesity instead of supporting the arts and heritage of Ireland, seems in tune with the way of things at the moment.

I was simply drawing attention to the bemoaning about money going into Irish, it can't be that much at all, and it employs people.

But if people do nothing but speak Irish they might forget to eat or breathe and THEY WILL DIE!!!!
But yeah, having a cake means you're definitely obese. You got me.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But if people do nothing but speak Irish they might forget to eat or breathe and THEY WILL DIE!!!!
But yeah, having a cake means you're definitely obese. You got me.

And pumping money into Irish means you're definitely fluent, by that logic.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

And pumping money into Irish means you're definitely fluent, by that logic.

Yes, but that was your logic, not mine.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, but that was your logic, not mine.

No, you inferred from me saying that producing cakes would raise the level of obesity, that everyone who eats a cake is obese.

Clearly, I did not say nor infer that, so I was showing how stupid such an inference would be.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

No, you inferred from me saying that producing cakes would raise the level of obesity, that everyone who eats a cake is obese.

Clearly, I did not say nor infer that, so I was showing how stupid such an inference would be.

Exactly what you said was

Ah yes, pump money into raising the levels of obesity.

So pretty much yeah, you do think giving out free cakes is guaranteed to make people fat. Can people not have cakes now? Still a better way to spend state money that even a red cent on Irish.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Exactly what you said was
So pretty much yeah, you do think giving out free cakes is guaranteed to make people fat. Can people not have cakes now? Still a better way to spend state money that even a red cent on Irish.

There are free cakes.
Man A has two free cakes a week.
Man B has two free cakes a day.
Man B becomes obese two months down the line.
Man A does not.
The level of obesity has risen.
Not everyone who ate a free cake became obese.
Get it?
Christ.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

There are free cakes.
Man A has two free cakes a week.
Man B has two free cakes a day.
Man B becomes obese two months down the line.
Man A does not.
The level of obesity has risen.
Not everyone who ate a free cake became obese.
Get it?
Christ.

You pay Man A to speak Irish.
You pay Man B to speak Irish.
Man B speaks Irish so much he forgets to breathe and dies.
Get it?
Satan.

Besides, a fat guy might still actually be of benefit to society. An Irish translator? No possible way.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You pay Man A to speak Irish.
You pay Man B to speak Irish.
Man B speaks Irish so much he forgets to breathe and dies.
Get it?
Satan.

Speaking requires ongoing breathing.
He'll pass out before he dies and then he wouldn't be speaking.
Allowing him to breath.
So no I don't get it.
Allah

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You pay Man A to speak Irish.
You pay Man B to speak Irish.
Man B speaks Irish so much he forgets to breathe and dies.
Get it?
Satan.

Besides, a fat guy might still actually be of benefit to society. An Irish translator? No possible way.

Fat people can be Irish translators too y'know,
In fact statistically the majority of them are fat.
So there.

Iwasfrozen

Deranged96 wrote: »

I'm in 6th year and know nobody, nor have heard of anybody, doing Latin.
How much money is being pumped into it? Not a lot I would argue. At least the translations employ people.

By that logic we could employ people to dig holes and fill them in again. The problem is that resources are limited. Every translator is one less nurse in our hospitals.

Deranged96

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By that logic we could employ people to dig holes and fill them in again. The problem is that resources are limited. Every translator is one less nurse in our hospitals.

There are people who appreciate Irish having a modern body of official publications and signs in Irish

Nobody would appreciate the return of follies :P

The number of translators required are very very very very small with everyone that has Irish on their CVs firing one in to the translations office.

Its very drastic to say that the handful of them are taking away from nurses, and I imagine an Irish translator reading that would be deeply hurt.

besides, arn't must of them employed in Brussels?

dlouth15

Appologies for the long post. Some of this has been posted already. I'm trying to get my thoughts down in as concise a way as possible.

These are positive steps that I think could improve Irish speaking in the country whilst at the same time not forcing it on others.

The thing we should be able to agree on is that whether or not Irish lives or dies has little to do with whether it remains compulsory. It lives or dies depending on whether there is a genuine rather than artificial need to speak it in ordinary life.

If anything compulsion and other artificial threats and bribes has led to its further demise.

One of the good things for me about leaving school was that I would never have to sit through another Irish class. This had nothing to do with the way it was taught. Irish is not the day to day language of Ireland the way French is in France, yet we were taught as if it was. No amount of teaching no matter how well it is taught will bring about an Irish speaking country, and while it is not an Irish speaking country few will have any interest in learning to any great extent.

I knew when I left school that I would have little or no use for the language. What is the point in better teaching of a subject that won't be used later?

Yet I respect those who have a genuine love for the language. What we should be able to agree on is that Irish will never be the dominant spoken language of the country through compulsion in schools and I think most who like the language agree with this. Those who hated Irish at school should find common ground here.

What I would suggest then is a removal of all compulsion at leaving cert level. Removal of Irish as a compulsory university entry requirement (allow it to be used as a part of a general language requirement).

We already don't require it for entry to the civil service but it still confers advantages in career progression. Remove this.

Stop counting those who are forced to attend Irish classes as Irish speakers. You are not an Irish speaker if you attend classes in Irish!

Remove the 10 percentage points added on to those who do the Leaving cert through Irish.

Most controversially, perhaps: remove Irish as the Official National Language. You can't simply declare something to be a national language and expect everyone to learn it. First, people have to speak the language, then you make it the national language. We need to earn the right to call Irish our national language. To do otherwise is hypocritical and therefore counterproductive.

Admit total failure in the policy to date. The only good to come of it is that we are an example to other on how not to do it.

Groups like Conradh na Gaeilge will, of course, protest loudly at all this. But it is important to remember that there is a difference between promoting the interests of Irish speakers and genuine encouragement of the language itself. Most of what has been done to promote the interests of Irish speakers has led to a decline in the language.

These groups have had their way for most of the last century or so and we can now see the results. Most of their policies have had the effect of killing the language to the extent that even in Gaelteacht areas, Irish is no longer the dominant language.

They have had their way. They have failed. Time for new thinking.

Instead of these bribes, punishments and guilt trips, follow international thinking on language revival. Be aware that it has never been done outside of Israel and that in that country there were unique circumstances. It will be harder in Ireland.

But the general thinking is that you can't force a language and any attempts to do so are counter productive. There is also plenty of evidence going back decades that language needs to be taught early on and that immersion works.

Therefore concentrate on reviving the language not as a failed national language but as a living regional one. Work at getting at getting a critical mass of speakers in a particular area. Concentrate resources there. Remove resources where there is little interest (i.e. most of the country) and therefore have no effect or a negative effect. Where you do teach it, do so at primary and pre-school level. But do so in such a way that all pre-schools and primary schools in an area are throught the medium of Irish. This needs to be concentrated in a geographical area, not dispersed throughout the country and needs to be done on such a scale that critical mass is achieved.

Someone will point out that this is probably not enough but my purpose is not to spell out everything that needs to be done but rather where we need to start if there's to be any attempt at localised revival. The key point is concentration of resources.

So to those who hated being forced to learn Irish at school like myself I would suggest that it is not hatred of the language itself but the hypocrisy, the pretence that Irish is a language loved by the Irish people. The fact that jobs and the financial interests of a relatively small group are at the heart of Irish language policy rather than your welfare when you leave school or any real promotion of the language.

Deranged96

dlouth15 wrote: »

Appologies for the long post. Some of this has been posted already. I'm trying to get my thoughts down in as concise a way as possible.

These are positive steps that I think could improve Irish speaking in the country whilst at the same time not forcing it on others.

The thing we should be able to agree on is that whether or not Irish lives or dies has little to do with whether it remains compulsory. It lives or dies depending on whether there is a genuine rather than artificial need to speak it in ordinary life.

If anything compulsion and other artificial threats and bribes has led to its further demise.

One of the good things for me about leaving school was that I would never have to sit through another Irish class. This had nothing to do with the way it was taught. Irish is not the day to day language of Ireland the way French is in France, yet we were taught as if it was. No amount of teaching no matter how well it is taught will bring about an Irish speaking country, and while it is not an Irish speaking country few will have any interest in learning to any great extent.

I knew when I left school that I would have little or no use for the language. What is the point in better teaching of a subject that won't be used later?

Yet I respect those who have a genuine love for the language. What we should be able to agree on is that Irish will never be the dominant spoken language of the country through compulsion in schools and I think most who like the language agree with this. Those who hated Irish at school should find common ground here.

What I would suggest then is a removal of all compulsion at leaving cert level. Removal of Irish as a compulsory university entry requirement (allow it to be used as a part of a general language requirement).

We already don't require it for entry to the civil service but it still confers advantages in career progression. Remove this.

Stop counting those who are forced to attend Irish classes as Irish speakers. You are not an Irish speaker if you attend classes in Irish!

Remove the 10 percentage points added on to those who do the Leaving cert through Irish.

Most controversially, perhaps: remove Irish as the Official National Language. You can't simply declare something to be a national language and expect everyone to learn it. First, people have to speak the language, then you make it the national language. We need to earn the right to call Irish our national language. To do otherwise is hypocritical and therefore counterproductive.

Admit total failure in the policy to date. The only good to come of it is that we are an example to other on how not to do it.

Groups like Conradh na Gaeilge will, of course, protest loudly at all this. But it is important to remember that there is a difference between promoting the interests of Irish speakers and genuine encouragement of the language itself. Most of what has been done to promote the interests of Irish speakers has led to a decline in the language.

These groups have had their way for most of the last century or so and we can now see the results. Most of their policies have had the effect of killing the language to the extent that even in Gaelteacht areas, Irish is no longer the dominant language.

They have had their way. They have failed. Time for new thinking.

Instead of these bribes, punishments and guilt trips, follow international thinking on language revival. Be aware that it has never been done outside of Israel and that in that country there were unique circumstances. It will be harder in Ireland.

But the general thinking is that you can't force a language and any attempts to do so are counter productive. There is also plenty of evidence going back decades that language needs to be taught early on and that immersion works.

Therefore concentrate on reviving the language not as a failed national language but as a living regional one. Work at getting at getting a critical mass of speakers in a particular area. Concentrate resources there. Remove resources where there is little interest (i.e. most of the country) and therefore have no effect or a negative effect. Where you do teach it, do so at primary and pre-school level. But do so in such a way that all pre-schools and primary schools in an area are throught the medium of Irish. This needs to be concentrated in a geographical area, not dispersed throughout the country and needs to be done on such a scale that critical mass is achieved.

So to those who hated being forced to learn Irish at school like myself I would suggest that it is not hatred of the language itself but the hypocrisy, the pretence that Irish is a language loved by the Irish people. The fact that jobs and the financial interests of a relatively small group are at the heart of Irish language policy rather than your welfare when you leave school or any real promotion of the language.

I agree with a lot of this, but there seems to be a lot of stick and no carrot.

I think that receiving extra marks for doing your leaving cert through Irish is fair enough, you get 25 pts for passing Higher Maths and their talking about extending that to other sciences, so its nothing privileged.

However, those extra marks in Irish should not be extend to papers that have minimal writing, such as Chemistry and Physics.

boardise

Pretty good summation right there.

dlouth15

Deranged96 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of this, but there seems to be a lot of stick and no carrot.

I think that receiving extra marks for doing your leaving cert through Irish is fair enough, you get 25 pts for passing Higher Maths and their talking about extending that to other sciences, so its nothing privileged.

However, those extra marks in Irish should not be extend to papers that have minimal writing, such as Chemistry and Physics.

Well one of the main points is that we need to get away from the carrot and stick approach to Irish on the basis that this doesn't work.

It might be fair in some respects to award extra points for doing Geography through Irish. But it sends out the wrong message as to why you should be learning Irish in the first place. For too long it has been the language of extra points, university entry, obtaining tax-payer money. This has the effect of orientating it away from being a spoken language.

Someone earlier mentioned a grant paid to Gaelteacht people for speaking Irish. What happened was that inspectors would visit school playgrounds and see if the children were speaking Irish. If they were, money would be paid to the parents.

The consequence of this was that when the inspectors left the children would revert to English. What message did that grant send to the children? If you start associating speaking a language with money or some other artificial advantage you will stop seeing it as a means of communication.

Franco tried to suppress Catalan in the Catalonia region of Spain. He banned it from Schools and all official business was conducted in standard Spanish. But Catalan survived. What he should have done was what has proved successful in killing the language here and provided bribes for speaking the language. Turn it into a "worthy" language that gets you special privileges that have nothing to do with day to day use of the language. Create resentment among who don't speak it and make them dislike it.

Grayson

Deranged96 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of this, but there seems to be a lot of stick and no carrot.

I think that receiving extra marks for doing your leaving cert through Irish is fair enough, you get 25 pts for passing Higher Maths and their talking about extending that to other sciences, so its nothing privileged.

However, those extra marks in Irish should not be extend to papers that have minimal writing, such as Chemistry and Physics.

1) Bonus points for maths is ok if it's for a related course. Science etc..

2) Even without that Maths is still hard. Studying it could result in extra points for it. And we'll accept that for now. However studying Irish really well should not result in bonus points for every other subject. You could technically get an extra 90 points for doing exams though Irish. That's hardly fair. Especially when most students won't be able to avail of it. It'll be a reward for the few native speakers. They'll have a huge advantage over non native speakers in the points system.

Deranged96

Grayson wrote: »

1) Bonus points for maths is ok if it's for a related course. Science etc..

2) Even without that Maths is still hard. Studying it could result in extra points for it. And we'll accept that for now. However studying Irish really well should not result in bonus points for every other subject. You could technically get an extra 90 points for doing exams though Irish. That's hardly fair. Especially when most students won't be able to avail of it. It'll be a reward for the few native speakers. They'll have a huge advantage over non native speakers in the points system.

Its a lot easier to pass higher maths than it is to answer the most important exams of your life through a language that is not your first. And after all, getting an A1 in Higher Irish is not going to get you extra points, you need to show fluency across the board. I think its fair as it stands, though as I said physics and Chemistry should not be included in the Irish scheme.

I'm sure its still awkward answering through Irish for students in the Gaeltachtí, when it comes to vocab for biology and things like that, but a fairer system does need to be worked out. It's shocking that those in the Gaeltachtí follow the same Irish syllabus as the rest of the country. Perhaps if they followed an Irish course that was akin to the English course in terms of difficulty.

Also I find it amusing that my computer wants to correct Gaeltachtí to heartache

superelliptic

Gatling wrote: »

If anything it's growing. It's dipping at gealtrach areas possibly due to emigration amongst the younger generations.
My kids are fluent and learning at 6 and 3 respectively .
For some moans about how it was taught is a cop out imo people just aren't motivated to learn for many in my generation 35+ many were told by there parents you don't need it ,why would you want to learn a dying language.
My kids came through a irish parent and toddlers group and on to naoinra where it's taught using high scope learning and learning thorough play.
It's been taught at universities in the states and growing in popularity there

And also in Canada too apparently.

I agree %100 with you. I'm of the same generation as you and I remember a few of my friends saying the same old thing about Irish being dead or dying back when we were in our teens but the funny thing is that many of these same folks now speak it to varying degrees.

I'm learning Irish again thanks to an online course and some light conversation with my father who is fairly fluent, but I want to reach a better level where I can go to Gael Linn nights and speak with strangers.

I have a very strong desire to learn gaeilge properly this time and for my kids to either learn it in school properly or attend a gaélscoíl. I don't want this to be the generation that gives up on it and lets it go when it could very easily be revived.

dlouth15

Deranged96 wrote: »

Its a lot easier to pass higher maths than it is to answer the most important exams of your life through a language that is not your first. And after all, getting an A1 in Higher Irish is not going to get you extra points, you need to show fluency across the board. I think its fair as it stands, though as I said physics and Chemistry should not be included in the Irish scheme.

But why is this incentive there in the first place? Doing your leaving cert whilst standing on your head is harder than doing it sitting down but we don't provide extra marks for it.

What is so great about people knowing a language they do not speak? If we are not going to speak it how much of it do we actually need? Maybe a "cupla focail" is all that is needed in most parts of the country.

Deranged96

dlouth15 wrote: »

But why is this incentive there in the first place? Doing your leaving cert whilst standing on your head is harder than doing it sitting down but we don't provide extra marks for it.

What is so great about people knowing a language they do not speak? If we are not going to speak it how much of it do we actually need? Maybe a "cupla focail" is all that is needed in most parts of the country.

Well, standing on your head while doing an exam might be cool, but its not a sign of academic prowess.

How many people doing Higher maths will ever think about Proof by induction again after the LC? Academic achievement is academic achievement, regardless if you use it later or not.

dlouth15

Deranged96 wrote: »

How many people doing Higher maths will ever think about Proof by induction again after the LC? Academic achievement is academic achievement, regardless if you use it later or not.

I would not agree with that. Most subjects have some usefulness. The school system can't predict who will need what skills so it needs to provide a broad rounded education to everyone. But generally there's very little that is totally useless.

You mentioned higher maths. This conversation would not be possible without it. In that sense you are actually using higher maths now when you read this. So it has to be taught.

Whether it should have extra points I don't know but its relevance in the modern world is fairly well established.

Academic achievement is not all the same.

Deranged96

dlouth15 wrote: »

I would not agree with that. Most subjects have some usefulness. The school system can't predict who will need what skills so it needs to provide a broad rounded education to everyone. But generally there's very little that is totally useless.

You mentioned higher maths. This conversation would not be possible without it. In that sense you are actually using higher maths now when you read this. So it has to be taught.


Whether it should have extra points I don't know but its relevance in the modern world is fairly well established.

Academic achievement is not all the same.

By the same token your using Irish :P

Unless you go on to do a course that has a maths complement, doing your leaving through Irish does have more impact on your life. People with fluent Irish these days raise their kids to be bilingual, or at least to have some bit of Irish in the home- as a poster above has alluded to this is quite a beautiful thing.

Now I am definitely not saying higher maths isn't useful,it certainly teaches critical thinking, just that most people rarely go past basic algebra in their day to day lives.

dlouth15

Deranged96 wrote: »

By the same token your using Irish :P

Unless you go on to do a course that has a maths complement, doing your leaving through Irish does have more impact on your life. People with fluent Irish these days raise their kids to be bilingual, or at least to have some bit of Irish in the home- as a poster above has alluded to this is quite a beautiful thing.

Now I am definitely not saying higher maths isn't useful,it certainly teaches critical thinking, just that most people rarely go past basic algebra in their day to day lives.

I don't want to knock Gealscoileanna or the people who send their kids there. But extra percentages added on to leaving cert results in such a way that someone with only 30 percent in a subject will pass sends the message out that Irish is a handicap that needs to be compensated for.

_Kaiser_

superelliptic wrote: »

I have a very strong desire to learn gaeilge properly this time and for my kids to either learn it in school properly or attend a gaélscoíl. I don't want this to be the generation that gives up on it and lets it go when it could very easily be revived.

Here's my problem with that line of reasoning...

You want to learn Irish - fine, go for it , but to force your children to sit through it when it will still be of no practical use to them in everyday life, over time that could be better spent learning a modern/in use European language or better dedicated to subjects like English and Maths.

Surely as a parent (and I'm one myself) you should want to give your child the best chance and advantages possible for their life post-school, and to me that doesn't extend to wasting unnecessary time and effort on a language that has had its day - because the reality is that the vast vast majority of people do not feel the same way you do and have no interest in reviving it.

di11on

Unfortunately, we had this strange idea that we could have Irish as the official language of the state but not speak it. It was doomed from then on.

We had the chance in 1922. Make Irish the working language of the state. All schools = Irish schools from day 1. After 10 or 20 years, they'd just be schools and you'd have to have special "English schools" if you wanted.

Just look at Hebrew. 150 years ago is was a dead language that some old religious books were written in. Now there are people who can only speak Hebrew - so it's perfectly possible - we just decided not to do it.

_Kaiser_

di11on wrote: »

Unfortunately, we had this strange idea that we could have Irish as the official language of the state but not speak it. It was doomed from then on.

We had the chance in 1922. Make Irish the working language of the state. All schools = Irish schools from day 1. After 10 or 20 years, they'd just be schools and you'd have to have special "English schools" if you wanted.

Just look at Hebrew. 150 years ago is was a dead language that some old religious books were written in. Now there are people who can only speak Hebrew - so it's perfectly possible - we just decided not to do it.

And realistically it's for the best that we didn't..

As a small island nation that relies almost entirely on foreign trade and investment, we've done pretty well out of being a native English speaking country over even the UK.

If we were speaking Irish as the first/primary language I think we'd still be mired economically and culturally somewhere in the 50s TBH.

di11on

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

And realistically it's for the best that we didn't..

As a small island nation that relies almost entirely on foreign trade and investment, we've done pretty well out of being a native English speaking country over even the UK.

If we were speaking Irish as the first/primary language I think we'd still be mired economically and culturally somewhere in the 50s TBH.

My personal opinion is do it right, or don't bother. We have the incredulous cheek to force the European Commission to translate key documents into Irish when we don't bother to speak the language ourselves. We had the chance (which I think we should have taken) but now the ship has sailed.

It's an oft-toted assumption that our economic progress is/was dependent on being native English speaking and that had we been primarily Irish speakers we'd somehow be backwards. This doesn't make much sense to me. There are many thriving non-English speaking countries, small ones too - why would we have been different? I think this opinion stems from our national inferiority complex. We could be speaking Irish and have very high levels of proficiency in English and enjoyed the same success... but a different type of success.

All that said, if we had have taken the parochial GAA type stance and prohibited speaking of "foreign" languages the same way we did "foreign" sports, we'd certainly be in the dark ages today.

Mind you, in my opinion we're not there yet. We voted in gay marriage but your non-Catholic child in your local state funded school has to sit in the corner while the rest of the class prepare for a religious sacrament... and that's if they got in at all... that's scandalous in my opinion.

BobMc

Only recently come across this thread, so only read last couple pages, but I'll go back a bit further when time allows, My own current experience is with my son aged 11 in 5th class, he struggles with irish, and will probably always do so, my wife and I just discussed this the other day and the effort and time he'll need to put into just being able to get by in irish is possibly going to affect his attitude to general study going forward.

I'll quote some round numbers, say he studys maths for 5hrs per week with homework etc and gets average to above average grads, but to just get by in irish has to put in 10 hrs a week, how can we justify putting that amount of pressure on him just get a pass grade with the chance he's so pissed off at all the study that other more important subjects suffer.

Dont have the answers but as a family at the moment we're very dissillusioned with the whole prospect of how and its detriment its taught

di11on

BobMc wrote: »

Only recently come across this thread, so only read last couple pages, but I'll go back a bit further when time allows, My own current experience is with my son aged 11 in 5th class, he struggles with irish, and will probably always do so, my wife and I just discussed this the other day and the effort and time he'll need to put into just being able to get by in irish is possibly going to affect his attitude to general study going forward.

I'll quote some round numbers, say he studys maths for 5hrs per week with homework etc and gets average to above average grads, but to just get by in irish has to put in 10 hrs a week, how can we justify putting that amount of pressure on him just get a pass grade with the chance he's so pissed off at all the study that other more important subjects suffer.

Dont have the answers but as a family at the moment we're very dissillusioned with the whole prospect of how and its detriment its taught

I struggled with Irish too. I am an Engineer by profession and got a D in pass Irish in the leaving cert while doing reasonably well in everything else. So I only barely managed to avoid having to repeat solely on account of Irish.

There must be a problem with how the language is taught. I don't have an intellectual disability that I know of but they managed to "teach" me Irish for 14 years and yet I come out the other end of the system barely able to put a sentence together!

Somehow, it's taught as a cultural obligation, not as a language. You must appreciate the literature of misery and suffering rather than learn a language to communicate and express.

It's all ar$eways. In principal, I think we should have kept our national language but what we have now, we're better off without.

Edit: I just remembered a primary school teacher we had who would use Irish as a threat. She would say: "SILENCE! Or it'll be out with the Irish books.". I swear I still have nightmares about the Buntús... this horrific event in school where the teacher would project some image onto the wall which featured a picture and some keywords in Irish. If you got picked on by the teacher, you'd have to make up a sentence. What a horror that was. I lived in perpetual fear that I'd be chosen.

LordSutch

BobMc wrote: »

Only recently come across this thread, so only read last couple pages, but I'll go back a bit further when time allows, My own current experience is with my son aged 11 in 5th class, he struggles with irish, and will probably always do so, my wife and I just discussed this the other day and the effort and time he'll need to put into just being able to get by in irish is possibly going to affect his attitude to general study going forward.

I'll quote some round numbers, say he studys maths for 5hrs per week with homework etc and gets average to above average grads, but to just get by in irish has to put in 10 hrs a week, how can we justify putting that amount of pressure on him just get a pass grade with the chance he's so pissed off at all the study that other more important subjects suffer.

Dont have the answers but as a family at the moment we're very dissillusioned with the whole prospect of how and its detriment its taught

Good post that, and I will be in the same boat in the coming years with my kids.
We are seriously thinking of just letting Irish go by the way side while concentrating on the other core subjects! Dunno how this will work out in practice but we're willing to give it a go (depending on circumstances). So if there's a complaint from the teacher, then we will have to rethink our stance, but if it just means that young Johnny gets an f in Irish while doing really well in English, Maths, French, Geography, etc etc then that's a good result.

di11on

LordSutch wrote: »

Good post that, and I will be in the same boat in the coming years with my kids.
We are seriously thinking of just letting Irish go by the way side while concentrating on the other core subjects! Dunno how this will work out in practice but we're willing to give it a go (depending on circumstances). So if there's a complaint from the teacher, then we will have to rethink our stance, but if it just means that young Johnny gets an f in Irish while doing really well in English, Maths, French, Geography, etc etc then that's a good result.

I totally see where you are coming from, but I think you will be doing your child a disservice here. There's no way out of having to learn the language that I know of and you still have to pass to get into uni. Lack of support at home will just make it so much more difficult. When I needed help with my Irish homework my dad would just go off on a rant about how we shouldn't have to learn a dead language. But what good did that do me?

LordSutch

di11306 wrote:

I totally see where you are coming from, but I think you will be doing your child a disservice here. There's no way out of having to learn the language that I know of and you still have to pass to get into uni. Lack of support at home will just make it so much more difficult. When I needed help with my Irish homework my dad would just go off on a rant about how we shouldn't have to learn a dead language. But what good did that do me?

Uni should not be an issue, whether it be in Scotland or England (depending in future fees, arrangements etc).

The thing is, both myself and my wife are professionally trained, we both went to school here, we both passed our leaving certs, and we both failed Irish. Yet here we are today conversing in English, while still able to have a bit of craic in the auld cupla focal with others, who passed their Irish exams yet are no better at conversing in Irish than myself or my wife!

The whole Irish language education thing is just such a time wasting farce IMO.
So much time wasted in school, and for what ?

BobMc

di11on wrote: »

I totally see where you are coming from, but I think you will be doing your child a disservice here. There's no way out of having to learn the language that I know of and you still have to pass to get into uni. Lack of support at home will just make it so much more difficult. When I needed help with my Irish homework my dad would just go off on a rant about how we shouldn't have to learn a dead language. But what good did that do me?

Thats what we're trying to avoid also. My wifes irish is poor to say the least and 20yrs since shes been at school, worse from my side as i've zero Irish as I grew up abroad so never did it in secondary. I'd love to tell him screw it, just work hard on the others, but I do think complacency would creep into other subjects too

dlouth15

di11on wrote: »

I totally see where you are coming from, but I think you will be doing your child a disservice here. There's no way out of having to learn the language that I know of and you still have to pass to get into uni. Lack of support at home will just make it so much more difficult. When I needed help with my Irish homework my dad would just go off on a rant about how we shouldn't have to learn a dead language. But what good did that do me?

Alternatively campaign to have Irish removed as a compulsory subject for university entry. Remember these are our universities. They do not belong to a relatively small number of Irish speakers.

recipio

Firstly Irish is a very difficult language to learn because it is not based on a Roman-Greek root as is English. Secondly, compulsion is a direct legacy of DeValera who was a delusional fanatic. Thirdly, no political party has had the courage to say enough is enough.
Even 'Renua' took on a pseudo Gaelic sounding moniker - so much for liberalism.
A change will come in time - why not put it up to the politicians. ?

LordSutch

recipio wrote: »

Firstly Irish is a very difficult language to learn because it is not based on a Roman-Greek root as is English. Secondly, compulsion is a direct legacy of DeValera who was a delusional fanatic. Thirdly, no political party has had the courage to say enough is enough.
Even 'Renua' took on a pseudo Gaelic sounding moniker - so much for liberalism.
A change will come in time - why not put it up to the politicians. ?

Talking of politicians, I wish one or two of our politicians would read this thread.

Deranged96

recipio wrote: »

Firstly Irish is a very difficult language to learn because it is not based on a Roman-Greek root as is English. Secondly, compulsion is a direct legacy of DeValera who was a delusional fanatic. Thirdly, no political party has had the courage to say enough is enough.
Even 'Renua' took on a pseudo Gaelic sounding moniker - so much for liberalism.
A change will come in time - why not put it up to the politicians. ?

It's hardly very difficult to learn, there are only 11 irregular verbs and the system of sounds is much more consistent than say in English. There are some quare grammar points but nothing as bad as the subjunctive in French.

It's just that the curriculum is diabolical altogether and there's no continuity between Irish at primary level and Irish at secondary level, leaving students to regress in the language if their teacher isn't capable

Dr_Bill

I can categorically state having gone through the eduction system from the age of five until eighteen and endured 13 years of the subject that the Dept. of Education nurtured my disdain for the language. Why anyone should have been made to study Peig is beyond me, nearly made me want to jump off a cliff too have to read through the crap.

I did however learn perseverance in the knowledge that once I left school I would not have to study the subject ever again. Fortunately I found English and French to be infinitely more useful in my professional and personal life.

The Irish language should be optional to study in school at secondary level.

Grayson

Dr_Bill wrote: »

I can categorically state having gone through the eduction system from the age of five until eighteen and endured 13 years of the subject that the Dept. of Education nurtured my disdain for the language. Why anyone should have been made to study Peig is beyond me, nearly made me want to jump off a cliff too have to read through the crap.

I did however learn perseverance in the knowledge that once I left school I would not have to study the subject ever again. Fortunately I found English and French to be infinitely more useful in my professional and personal life.

The Irish language should be optional to study in school at secondary level.

There are two types of people who study Irish at leaving level.

Those that want to and those that don't.

Those that don't want to won't learn anything. They'll study what they need to learn to pass an exam and won't learn anything else. Since they'll never use it outside school, they'll forget it all.

It should definitely be optional for leaving. If someone doesn't have an interest in it by then, they'll never have it and those two extra years will just nurture a dislike of it.

The Corinthian

recipio wrote: »

Firstly Irish is a very difficult language to learn because it is not based on a Roman-Greek root as is English.

That's not actually true. Any of that.

English is a Germanic language. It is influenced heavily by Latin, for example, but what language isn't? Our word for window is more Germanic than the German word, which is ironically derived from Latin, for example.

And Irish is no different, as it was heavily influenced by late Latin; capall - caballus anyone? Even prior to that both English and Irish (and basically every other European language other than Finnish, Hungarian and Basque) is Indo-European in origin, so even when you look at classical Latin and early Irish, you'll quickly see that they're related - the earlier forms of the word 'horse' in the two were equus and ech.

As a language it's probably no more complicated to learn than any other. High German is probably harder. How it's taught and how absolutely pointless after school it is, is what is the problem - of the latter, I've forgotten almost all of my calculus since my LC because I've had little need to use it, just like my Irish. Actually, I've had more reason to use calculus.

boardise

A few points made above call for some comment.
* Gaelic is a dying language. It's not just the view of people in the street -it's a view held by linguistic researchers and by the revival lobby itself. If a language is not dying -why would anyone be trying to 'revive' it ? Gaelic has been on life support for quite a while now.

* It's being taught in universities abroad. Of course it is but what relevance has that to daily life in Ireland ?
Scholarly types are interested in all kinds of extinct languages from biblical times down. ..e.g. Hittite ,Old Church Slavonic.
No one is arguing against the academic study of Gaelic. Non-scholars also study languages to a certain (limited) level for curiosity or personal eccentric reasons. This is totally removed from a language being used by an entire population for their important personal and public transactions.

* Someone actually made a statement along the lines ...'it (Gaelic) could be easily revived'. This is almost comical in its naivety. Anyone making a statement like that is simply not au fait with the complex of issues involved in the Gaelic revival.
It is a statement of spectacular gormlessness and I'm afraid this poster must be left to stew in the seething cauldron of their ignorance.

* Someone else tries to suggest that the cost of honouring the insane designation of Gaelic as an official language of the state is not that significant. No official attempt has been made to supply accurate trustworthy figures -I wonder why ? The Gaelic lobby is as usual shifty and duplicitous when asked about this. In one breath they say it's not very much at all -then in the next breath they say ,well, even if the cost is considerable the revival is worth persisting with no matter what the cost....but then the fact that they are the chief beneficiaries might explain that particular stance.
The cost must be vast. One would have to total up the various cost of all the grants and subventions since the 1920s.
These would include ,inter alia,
-training teachers
-subsidised textbooks
-the various grants (deontaisí) to designated Gaeltacht areas alluded to earlier in the thread .i.e. housing , money to households taken /deemed/to be Gaelic speaking. Think about it -bribing people to use their 'native' language! Much of this money was dishonestly
and fraudulently acquired .
-Maintaining a special government Department of the Gaeltacht with all the bureaucratic entailments
-maintaining inspectors for Gaelic in the Dept. of Education
-paying for books to translated into Gaelic the vast bulk of which ended up unread or mouldering in the basement of the GPO.
-Duplicating signage all over the place
-Doubling the cost of advertisements in newspapers national and local.
-Doubling the cost of all official forms e.g.tax, driver's licence etc.
-Doubling the cost of supplying information brochures and booklets to all the households in the land -paper, design, translation , printing, distribution, disposal. This alone must be enormous as we're talking many hundreds of pages of unreadable drivel sent over the years to around 1 1/2 million households on glossy coloured paper with many illustrations.
One can readily see that the cost is huge. All unnecessary ,all waste. , all sad and silly.
Virtually everything to do with the Gaelic revival is phoney and based on unreality.

Deranged96

Why do you call it Gaelic? It's Irish or Gaeilge. Gaelic refers to a family of languages.

You supply no figures about the cost of maintaining Irish yourself.

EDIT: I would however agree with leaflets as gaeilge only being sent to households that register for them.

The Dark Side

boardise wrote: »

* Someone else tries to suggest that the cost of honouring the insane designation of Gaelic as an official language of the state is not that significant. No official attempt has been made to supply accurate trustworthy figures -I wonder why ? The Gaelic lobby is as usual shifty and duplicitous when asked about this. In one breath they say it's not very much at all -then in the next breath they say ,well, even if the cost is considerable the revival is worth persisting with no matter what the cost....but then the fact that they are the chief beneficiaries might explain that particular stance.
The cost must be vast.

I suspect that if the actual cost of this vanity exercise was known, there would be such a public outcry that Irish would be very quickly dropped as one of the official languages.

However, as you've pointed out, the actual cost of this madness is being spread out amongst a myriad of Govt. Departments and budgets.
Trying to untangle the true cost is almost impossible - and, I suspect, not entirely an accidental consequence of the exercise.

I suspect the figure runs to many 10's of millions of euros every year, perhaps even into the 100's of millions.

People go out blocking the streets over a few cents per day water-charge, but will happily stand by as billions of euros over the next couple of decades are flushed down the toilets on this madness.